One to Fifty, One Zone - Long OP

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Originally Posted by Siobu

Thanks so much, Mack, for sharing all your thoughts. I'm glad to have you and the others behind this thread.

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Of course :P I'm gonna keep posting 'til we get a response from the dev team.

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Originally Posted by Mack

Of course :P I'm gonna keep posting 'til we get a response from the dev team.

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Right on. I feel like we've posted the same ideas a few times now, but we need to show how important this is!

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

Right on. I feel like we've posted the same ideas a few times now, but we need to show how important this is!

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Yea lol without a doubt I think I've repeated myself in this topic about 20 times now but I think everything that needed to be said has been said, all we need to do now is keep this on the front page.

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Originally Posted by Sigmakan

I feel like we've posted the same ideas a few times now, but we need to show how important this is!

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It's true, myself included, but hopefully a thread this long that has stayed firmly on one topic with one voice stands out. That definitely was my goal with each of my posts. :)

It's impossible for this thread not to have been seen. But have we been heard?

This change alone could easily make it feel much more like a game. I'm sorta surprised there hasn't been a developers post in here yet.

To anyone joining late, I'd like to re-post this image which demonstrates how I view the imbalance in our current world:

http://seahorror.com/thoughts.jpg

It is unnatural.

Traveling from one corner of our maps to another does not provide any sense of adventure, progression, or new experiences.

This thread has only gotten to where it is due to unanimous agreement. No, or little, debate has driven us this far.

We need a world. I need a world. I need to know what the future holds for us. For all of us.

Square, won't you please tell us?

The world is bland and repetitive I do not feel like I need to peek around the next corner because I already know whats going to be there. I do not feel attached to the world it does not draw me in at all and I want to be. I doubt we will ever get the original zones in FFXIV remade but I seriously hope any new zones are nothing like the ones we currently have.

150 Thumbs Up and closing on 200 folks! Voting this best thread of 2011! Come on Bayohne give us some love :D

At one time it was said that a major complaint from the Japanese community was about the design of The Black Shroud. In fact, it's been said that Yoshi-P agrees.

At the time, I had believed the issue was merely about the aesthetics of that particular region. Many feel it is like a giant claustrophobic maze.

Since I don't speak a word of Japanese, I have no way of reading the posts and getting an idea of what the real underlying issue was. But I wonder now if they have the same feeling of lack of adventure and progression? Perhaps it did go beyond aesthetics? Maybe they've understood the issue for a while?

I know that I personally have felt that something was amiss for a very long time, that something was lacking, but was never able to specifically put my finger on it until now.

I do believe it does go beyond aesthetics.

Should they "fix" the shroud.. What is the fix? Should they open up the tunnels or sections of the map? Are they addressing only the complaints of thin tunnels? Even if the Shroud was opened up a bit more to be wider such as Thanalan or La Noscea, it would not solve the issue.

Whether it's a giant, open square with no obstacles, or multiple sections tethered by corridors. It is still one zone. From one to fifty. There never has to be anything beyond. Until 50? Until 90?

We must leave home. We must have the opportunity to grow and travel. There was a reason we all chose to join FF14. And I believe it was for adventure.

We must not only see new sights, but they must reflect our growth.

Mankind crossed the sea. But, we still weren't satisfied on the ground until we reached the sky. And even then, it wasn't enough. We wanted to go further. Right now, we're not even leaving our caves.

Players in this game need new areas to level in (sorry if I'm speaking for someone who does not agree). Completely unique areas. With a goal. A level range.

We should be encouraged to leave. Forced to leave. To progress.

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Originally Posted by Siobu

Forced to leave. To progress.

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That is a forbidden phrase for MMO's, my way or the highway most will choose the highway.

Its is the same as me telling you accept Gridania the way it is and be happy.. Are you happy?.. Be Happier! HAPPIER!

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Originally Posted by Joeking

That is a forbidden phrase for MMO's, my way or the highway most will choose the highway.

Its is the same as me telling you accept Gridania the way it is and be happy.. Are you happy?.. Be Happier! HAPPIER!

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You left out Sio's entire sentence: "We should be encouraged to leave. Forced to leave. To progress. "

Every MMO encourages people to leave and if the Player WANTS to progress in the game they will be or SHOULD be forced to leave and head onto bigger or better things. You are never forced into doing anything you don't want to do but if you want to complete y and z, you have to complete x first.

If I may continue to use a reference:

What if we never had to leave the city walls in 11?

What if this was all we knew?

http://seahorror.com/sample.jpg

I wholeheartedly support multiple areas with similar range, similar stages of progression. But right now, we have none. No progression. Adventure.

What's the right thing to do in this situation?

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Originally Posted by Siobu

If I may continue to use a reference:

What if we never had to leave the city walls in 11?

What if this was all we knew?

http://seahorror.com/sample.jpg

I wholeheartedly support multiple areas with similar range, similar stages of progression. But right now, we have none. No progression. Adventure.

What's the right thing to do in this situation?

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I firmly believe they need to optimize each area. Even if we get shot down on minor cosmetic changes, I feel SE needs to make Traveling from point A to point B to point C a dangerous and exciting experience. It needs to have a progression path like San d'Oria to Ronfaure to Ghelsba to La Theine to Valkurm Dunes to Jeuno/Qufim Island.

I want to have to backtrack and circle around Goblins, Orcs and Tremor Rams. I want to have to set my HP at a point in the zone, get aggro and die and have to make the trip all over again - because in the end its twice as rewarding and it makes you feel awesome. I want to have to walk blindly and not let a minimap + autorun guide me through all of my travels.

I want a real adventure.

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Originally Posted by Richard

I firmly believe they need to optimize each area. Even if we get shot down on minor cosmetic changes, I feel SE needs to make Traveling from point A to point B to point C a dangerous and exciting experience. It needs to have a progression path like San d'Oria to Ronfaure to Ghelsba to La Theine to Valkurm Dunes to Jeuno/Qufim Island.

I want to have to backtrack and circle around Goblins, Orcs and Tremor Rams. I want to have to set my HP at a point in the zone, get aggro and die and have to make the trip all over again - because in the end its twice as rewarding and it makes you feel awesome. I want to have to walk blindly and not let a minimap + autorun guide me through all of my travels.

I want a real adventure.

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That doesn't make sense though this games main premise was to make it accessible to all audiences, if they made the game more adventures and better then there would be so much QQ.

In SE's attempt to make their game accessible to all and a pick-up put-down type of game they missed the little things that made FFXI so rewarding, epic, and fun.

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Originally Posted by Bled

That doesn't make sense though this games main premise was to make it accessible to all audiences, if they made the game more adventures and better then there would be so much QQ.

In SE's attempt to make their game accessible to all and a pick-up put-down type of game they missed the little things that made FFXI so rewarding, epic, and fun.

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XI's unique adventures were not part of the problem that made the game not casual friendly though. The party system, the endgame and the grind is what turned the casuals away. Just because it's easier to level in this game, and the content is watered down doesn't mean that casuals can't have a dangerous and vibrant world to live in. Anyone who would QQ over any of this:

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I want to have to backtrack and circle around Goblins, Orcs and Tremor Rams. I want to have to set my HP at a point in the zone, get aggro and die and have to make the trip all over again - because in the end its twice as rewarding and it makes you feel awesome. I want to have to walk blindly and not let a minimap + autorun guide me through all of my travels.

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needs to be playing 3DS and Wii kids games. SE has already hurt this game immeasurably trying to cater to the casual audience and it need to change.

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Originally Posted by Richard

XI's unique adventures were not part of the problem that made the game not casual friendly though. The party system, the endgame and the grind is what turned the casuals away. Just because it's easier to level in this game, and the content is watered down doesn't mean that casuals can't have a dangerous and vibrant world to live in. Anyone who would QQ over any of this:



needs to be playing 3DS and Wii kids games. SE has already hurt this game immeasurably trying to cater to the casual audience and it need to change.

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what would piss a person off more?

1. an endless party grind.

2. not being able to get to the endless party grind.

I knew a few people who quit XI because they had no clue how to get to Valkrum. Notice in my post now and before i never mentioned casual players not once, not to sure why you thought i did. The people i was referring to are the people who have never played an MMO before or the mainstream people who want a copy paste of WoW.

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I knew a few people who quit XI because they had no clue how to get to Valkrum. Notice in my post now and before i never mentioned casual players not once, not to sure why you thought i did. The people i was referring to are the people who have never played an MMO before or the mainstream people who want a copy paste of WoW.

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Most hilarious thing I've ever read. /10char

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Originally Posted by Richard

Most hilarious thing I've ever read. /10char

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Np Richard, glad i could entertain you.

The more and more I think about this, the more I understand where they were originally going with it. But the final design ultimately fell short. To be honest, I think they ran out of time and ended up doing nothing but copy/paste so that the game would be playable and they would (hopefully) address it later.

It has been said before in this thread, but to reiterate, this is how the world is set up:

Zone
The Black Shroud

Subzones
Gridania
Central Shroud
North Shroud
South Shroud
East Shroud
West Shroud

La Noscea, Thanalan, and Coerthas are all set up the same way. The only zone that is not broken up into subzones is Mor Dhona.

When you take other MMOs, like FFXI or WoW, and compare the world, one zone in FFXIV is the size of a continent or region in other MMOs. One subzone in FFXIV is the size of a zone in other games.

The Black Shroud (FFXIV) = Quon (FFXI) = Kalimdor (WoW)
Central Shroud (FFXIV) = Ronfaure (FFXI) = Ashenvale (WoW)

(Sort of a crude example, but hopefully you get the picture).

The major difference here, is that (with the exception of the cities, of course) the subzones in FFXIV all look alike, have the same music, they don't have unique names, and they don't have clearcut paths of progression.

I spent most of my time leveling in World of Warcraft in Kalimdor. If I had to look at the same scenery, listen to the same music, and fight the same monsters the entire time, it would have been beyond boring. It would have been maddening. There is no sense of adventure in that.

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The major difference here, is that (with the exception of the cities, of course) the subzones in FFXIV all look alike, have the same music, they don't have unique names, and they don't have clearcut levels of progression.

I spent most of my time leveling in World of Warcraft in Kalimdor. If I had to look at the same scenery, listen to the same music, and fight the same monsters the entire time, it would have been beyond boring. It would have been maddening. There is no sense of adventure in that.

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Completely agree. Whether it was due to bad design or lack of time, I don't think we'll ever know for sure. It's probably a bit of both tbh. Either way I think they have a good opportunity now to fix it up a little bit and hope they take the initiative!

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Originally Posted by Richard

You left out Sio's entire sentence: "We should be encouraged to leave. Forced to leave. To progress. "

Every MMO encourages people to leave and if the Player WANTS to progress in the game they will be or SHOULD be forced to leave and head onto bigger or better things. You are never forced into doing anything you don't want to do but if you want to complete y and z, you have to complete x first.

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Some mmo's provide multiple ways of reaching your goal not just x = y = z but rather w,x,y = z giving the players options on how the achieve that goal.

PS: Commonly in British and American English the full stop, denotes the end of a sentence. Though he may be using a different kind.

Oh, I absolutely encourage and want multiple paths to reach a goal. In fact, anything else would be cheating us of potential experiences. There should never be only one way to do things. Even in 11, although every one preferred the Dunes, I leveled in Buburimu sometimes. There was always another way. We had a choice. We deserve choices.

But we also deserve to feel proud of where our choices take us. Right now, we're taken no where.

I also will try to type more clearly. Sorry for any confusion. :)

What will it take for us to get crowned?

This is a big issue and i would be very happy if SE would just put in a first step the foes like Richard's example earlier.

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Originally Posted by Richard

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Quick example I threw together: http://www.gwcdn.com/albums/images/4...0a2b004f5e.jpg

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Further changes would be welcome but i guess for now to put the monster so there are different areas with different level range would be the easiest way to make Eorzea a bit more dangerous.

For the record I haven't seen this brought up here yet but Yoshida responded to a Japanese topic that seems to be talking about this same thing a little while back (I don't read Japanese but from his response...well this is the google translation of it):

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Producer / Director is Yoshida.

Everyone, MAP Thank you for complaint.
Yoshida also like you to MAP's specifications, there is a strong sense of crisis,
There are an enormous amount of work is well advanced plans for redesign.
However, as already pointed out that Itadai in order to fundamentally fix the
You will get to give me a time.

Therefore, the current MAP collision mitigation (steps / Relaxation caught) is followed by steady,
In a parallel measure to promote the long term planning radical refurbishment.

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And here is the link to the original topic (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...81%8B%EF%BC%9F), if someone does know Japanese and can translate it more accurately and can perhaps give us an idea of what the Japanese crowd is talking about It'd be appreciated.

And I bolded that part where he mentions "long term planning radical refurbishment", I wonder if this means that they are actually considering redrawing all the maps as we all want. Seems to me if this is the case I wouldn't think the PS3 version will see light of day before the end of their fiscal year next March 2012...which is fine by me if they're actually planning this.

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Originally Posted by Mack

For the record I haven't seen this brought up here yet but Yoshida responded to a Japanese topic that seems to be talking about this same thing a little while back (I don't read Japanese but from his response...well this is the google translation of it):



And here is the link to the original topic (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...81%8B%EF%BC%9F), if someone does know Japanese and can translate it more accurately and can perhaps give us an idea of what the Japanese crowd is talking about It'd be appreciated.

And I bolded that part where he mentions "long term planning radical refurbishment", I wonder if this means that they are actually considering redrawing all the maps as we all want. Seems to me if this is the case I wouldn't think the PS3 version will see light of day before the end of their fiscal year next March 2012...which is fine by me if they're actually planning this.

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Great find Mack I'll look into getting a translation from that OP. Thumbs up!

The Second/Third post in that thread basically states:

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Originally Posted by Neruson of the JP Forums

I would certainly agree that the current maps are a waste of space.
FFXIV does not feel like I felt when entering an exciting new area of ​​fun and adventure in FFXI when I was trying to level up.

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Originally Posted by Morith of the JP Forums

I also find these maps discontent. Gridania map sucks. I think many people play online games and want an adventure and these maps break my heart. I want the maps to be more open and attractive but it may be difficult from the setting of the city Gridania.

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I'll go through more of them but I think they seem to be in much the same agreement as we are here. The zones are just poorly done and the adventuring aspect is tragically no where to be found.

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Originally Posted by Richard

The second post in that thread basically states:



I'll go through more of them but I think they seem to be in much the same agreement as we are here. The zones are just poorly done and the adventuring aspect is tragically no where to be found.

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OK awesome can you translate Yoshida's post please, here is the original one:

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プロデューサ/ディレクタの吉田です。

皆さん、MAPについての問題提起ありがとうございます。
皆さん同様に吉田もMAPの仕様について、強く危機意識があり、
莫大な作業量ではありますが、しっかり再設計に向けた計画を進めています。
ただし、既にご指摘いただいている通り、根本からの修正のためには、
お時間を頂いてしまうことになります。

そのため、現MAPのコリジョン緩和（段差/引っ掛かりの緩和）は地道に続け、
根本改修も長期的に計画という並行策で進めています。

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Originally Posted by Mack

OK awesome can you translate Yoshida's post please, here is the original one:

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Google translate says:

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Producer / Director is Yoshida.

Everyone, MAP Thank you for complaint.
Yoshida also like you to MAP's specifications, there is a strong sense of crisis,
There are an enormous amount of work is well advanced plans for redesign.
However, as already pointed out that Itadai in order to fundamentally fix the
You will get to give me a time.

Therefore, the current MAP collision mitigation (steps / Relaxation caught) is followed by steady,
In a parallel measure to promote the long term planning radical refurbishment.

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This is what you get if go Japanese>Greek>Korean>English

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Producer / Director Yoshida.

Everyone, Thanks for letting us map.
Yoshida, like you, too, the requirements of the Charter, there is a strong sense of urgency
Well-advanced plans to redesign is a huge project.
However, as already pointed out the fundamental is determined Itadai
You give me time.

Therefore, current limiting conflicts (m / caught a break), followed by a stable map
Promote a radical long-term plans that parallel measurements

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Originally Posted by Mack

OK awesome can you translate Yoshida's post please, here is the original one:

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From Producer/Director Yoshida
Thank you for all of your concers regarding maps. Yoshida appriciates your ideas on new map specifications as there seems to be a sense of crisis among the community. There is an enormous amount of work planned in advance for redesigns. However, as already pointed out we need to fix the fundamental problems with the game first and cannot give you a time frame at the moment.
The current changes will have steady changes over time to promote the long term redesign and radical refurbishment of maps.

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This is not 100% accurate but it's close. When one of our fluent JP speakers is on tomorrow afternoon I'll be sure to get up the complete translation.

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Originally Posted by Siobu

To anyone joining late, I'd like to re-post this image which demonstrates how I view the imbalance in our current world:

http://seahorror.com/thoughts.jpg


It is unnatural.

Traveling from one corner of our maps to another does not provide any sense of adventure, progression, or new experiences.

This thread has only gotten to where it is due to unanimous agreement. No, or little, debate has driven us this far.

We need a world. I need a world. I need to know what the future holds for us. For all of us.

Square, won't you please tell us?

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qufim island is a zone , and huge if u include the tunnel to behemoth dominions , add the Qufim tower (and thasts huge too with lots of floors D: and gigas....and goblins /panic)

and yeah FFXI has a progression and very simple at that

CITYS (bastok , sandoria, windurst)

2 zoneas for lows = East and West (sarutabaruta , ronfaure) North/ south gustaber , include the "dungeons there " , because i leveled insided the sarutabaruta towers too (amazing farming zone for lows , lots of bats and gobs to farm)

Now 2 zones 10-20 ,zones 1 step toward jeuno (central hub)

la theine , konschat , and tharongi canyon , and the 3 beastmen stronholds (ghelsba , giddeus , and mines)

Now 20-30 zones

Jugner Forest , Pashow marshlands ,Meripha. Mountins

30-40 zones

Rolanberry , Batallia downs, Sauromugue

Now Jeuno !

u usally do a trip to jeuno @ 20 (chocobo quest) isnt easy but doable

all zones have dungeons in them and more than 1 actually.

I dont recall any zone w/o a dungeon ....

so yeah FFXI makes sense ...... FFXIV sucks

Thank you Mack and Richard for your work. :)

I won't ask for a time frame, but I will ask of them: What can we expect? -What- ?

A completely new beginning for the whole world? Or adjustments to our current?

So long as they can promise a true adventure is at the end of the tunnel, I will hold the faith. And I won't question the time it takes to make such astronomical change.

But, what is included in this 're-design', I wonder? Is it the change they are currently performing on the Shroud? Is it a true world? But are they leaving the other areas behind... for now?

I feel a little lost in a cloud of mixed messages and contradiction. The mention of a 'redesign,' but the addition of stale dungeons and quest hubs. Conflicting? What could it mean?

I appreciate every one's continued thoughts and opinions on this matter. I enjoy your ideas and your concerns.

Let's be heard.

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Originally Posted by Richard

This is not 100% accurate but it's close. When one of our fluent JP speakers is on tomorrow afternoon I'll be sure to get up the complete translation.

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Thanks for the translation. So it seems the concerns are spread across the entire playerbase, I'd assume too that the french and german forums have some concerns pertaining to this too as well as other people not classified under a forum. This is the best news for me so far, I hope that we still get an official answer on the NA forums from the devs and details on what they plan to do at least (i.e., is it going to be simple redesigns, add aesthetic stuff here or there or what entails "radical refurbishment" because radical may mean something to us as we get carried away with our imaginations here and might mean something completely different to Yoshinda and company).

EDIT: and Siobu just beat me to saying the same exact thing :D.

Oh, Mack, I was just about to quote you, too. :P

Here's to a crown.

Thenk you Mack and Richard for the good work.
i guess we'll get an answer from the dev team soon ^^

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Originally Posted by Mack

So it seems the concerns are spread across the entire playerbase, I'd assume too that the french and german forums have some concerns pertaining to this too as well as other people not classified under a forum.

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Didnt find anything about this on the german forum, but i'll start a discussion there, even though the german forum isnt really lively :P

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Originally Posted by Siobu

Oh, Mack, I was just about to quote you, too. :P

Here's to a crown.

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LOL :P .

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Originally Posted by Meph

Thenk you Mack and Richard for the good work.
i guess we'll get an answer from the dev team soon ^^


Didnt find anything about this on the german forum, but i'll start a discussion there, even though the german forum isnt really lively :P

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Yea no loss in starting one that'd be really cool, see what type of reaction it gets.

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Originally Posted by Richard

This is not 100% accurate but it's close. When one of our fluent JP speakers is on tomorrow afternoon I'll be sure to get up the complete translation.

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Thank you, Richard! This actually gives me quite a bit of hope. It turns out the JP community shares our concern, after all!

I'll wait for a bit more information before I officially break out in happy dance. I just hope Yoshi-P fully understands what needs to be done to remedy this problem. As others have stated, it'll take more than quest hubs, dungeons and bandaids. Maybe the landscape changes will come as quest hubs are implemented. Here's hoping.

Fortunately, with everyone's help, this thread is almost as long as the Japanese thread which triggered an official response. Surely, this warrants one as well?

To restate my thoughts once more to any new arrivals clicking the 'last' button:

Because of 3 zones completely performing the work of multiple regions, taking characters from 1 to 50 just outside the city's walls, I worry that all further content will be build within these current zones. Why would Square Enix make new zones, when these do their jobs for them?

However, we need new zones. Without them, we may never experience a true adventure from a fresh recruit to a seasoned fighter. One that we can look back on and count the milestones we stepped over to get there. To feel nostalgia years later.

Currently, "dungeons" and extra camps/hubs are being placed around our current world. Is this their solution? Or a bandaid? They speak of re-designing the Shroud, but what does it mean? Are we merely making the corridors wider?

We do not know where we will be in a year, or two years: Faraway lands, airship rides away from home, or just outside Ul'dah's walls?

Thanks guys. Danke, Meph.

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Originally Posted by Siobu

Danke, Meph.

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Bitte ^^

This needs to be adressed in every forum, so maybe anyone can raise such a topic on the french forum if it isnt already?
(I would but i cant speak french :P)