What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Well Venat didn't think so, so she sundered the world to make them know suffering. As the previous Azem, she saw a lot more of the world than everyone else and was more likely to know.

---

Venat wasn't the only Ancient who travelled the world, though. Hythlodaeus sits down next to the player character at one point during the Elpis story arc and reveals that Emet-Selch is exceedingly well travelled and worked tirelessly to help whoever needed it.

On the other hand Venat, described herself in a rather arrogant manner - referring to herself as 'without prejudice' which we know is a lie because her reaction to people not doing exactly what she wanted was to murder every last man, woman and child present on Etheirys at the time.

Personally I don't think the genocide of the Ancients was ever justified given what we know of the situation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

There's also Elidibus, a little brother figure by all accounts, acting as the heart, which is described as a heart-wrenching decision for them all. I thought before EW that that would be the main reason why - who knows, it still may be.

---

It's not something I'd seriously argue, but my Headcanon (TM) has always been that Azem didn't really have a concretely righteous reason for opposing Zodiark - they simply could not, emotionally, handle doing that to Themis - even if they couldn't come up with any alternatives - and a meltdown accompanied by ditching the Convocation ensued. I like the idea both on a JUSTICE FOR THEMIS level and also, I'd rather avoid treating Azem by default as the moral arbiter of all that is good and right and so different from those terrible Ancients, etc - which is how a lot of people seemed to respond to that grape story on the Lodestone, lmao.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Well Venat didn't think so, so she sundered the world to make them know suffering. As the previous Azem, she saw a lot more of the world than everyone else and was more likely to know.

---

On the point of suffering, even Venat does not deny that they knew it - her claim is solely that they were able to rid of it for a time:

Quote:

---

Venat: No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time.

---

Again, the issue (in her eyes) is not that they were oblivious to it, but that she thought they weren't going to respond to the crisis the way she wanted, and wouldn't change, according to the Q&A. Not that they'd never experienced suffering. One can take it a step further and say the reports Meteion brought back validated her romanticisation of suffering and, when her kin weren't acting in line with her expectations, that sufficed for her to give up on them and try another route, by ending them...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brinne

It's not something I'd seriously argue, but my Headcanon (TM) has always been that Azem didn't really have a concretely righteous reason for opposing Zodiark - they simply could not, emotionally, handle doing that to Themis - even if they couldn't come up with any alternatives - and a meltdown accompanied by ditching the Convocation ensued. I like the idea both on a JUSTICE FOR THEMIS level and also, I'd rather avoid treating Azem by default as the moral arbiter of all that is good and right and so different from those terrible Ancients, etc - which is how a lot of people seemed to respond to that grape story on the Lodestone, lmao.

---

Indeed, I was dreading them doing something like that - I never read the story that way, as to me the real focus was to explain their relationships and show Azem had similar traits to their model WoL more than trying to demonise the other ancients, and it would be one of the most off-putting things they could do had they gone through with such a thing as you mention.

I'd rather have a good story than obsess over where the story takes place, personally. To be clear: I welcome a hypothetical expac based on minority cultures not commonly seen in high fantasy. Sure, I love castles and Ishgard remains one of my favorite settings in the game. I also think the Steppe is one of the best-realized locales--on par with Ishgard, imo--and there's not a single castle to be found there. (Garlemald, which is popular with several of the people in this thread, is also an industrial fantasy location without any of the banner flying ramparts so beloved by high fantasy books and movies.) If you remain interested in seeing castles and dragons and concerned they have no place in the game's direction, New Game + is your friend.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Well Venat didn't think so, so she sundered the world to make them know suffering. As the previous Azem, she saw a lot more of the world than everyone else and was more likely to know.

---

Being widely traveled doesn't make you an expert in suffering, though?

The Azim Steppe is a beloved location for many reasons, for one it stands out as one of the few Stormblood zones that actually have a bit of color in them. A wide open sky, us meeting Hien, getting to know the people of the Steppe in ways more meaningful than helping them sell fish, all good stuff. There was very little in the way of preaching about morals or ethics there that I can remember, aside from Gosetsu having an outburst about not believing in reincarnation but overall there was not much of what made Gyr Abania so insufferable.

Garlemald has value to high fantasy lovers as well as steampunk/futuristic lovers because for one you have people that remember the iconic vista of FFVI's Vector or FFXV's Insomnia, and the general appeal of a region whose culture draws upon the more militaristic era of Eastern Europe as well as Rome. Though by the time we arrive there is no visible imperial palace to visit, we got to ascend the Tower of Babil which was an ominous and impressive landmark in its own right. It is a shame we only got one Garlean zone as opposed to a Garlemald expansion, which could have easily drawn from various aspects of FFVI and mixed steampunk and high fantasy together in a way that is palatable to the Final Fantasy audience.

Apart from drawing from European countries, the next up on the list that has a wide enough appeal are countries from Asia like China and Japan. Naturally, Japan has a more dominant presence in this game but it is unlikely we will return to the far east for more adventures until we are an expansion or two deep into Season 2. It is safe to say that an expansion set solely in Hingashi would appeal to most FF players, given the real world cultural relevance and influence of Japan.

So, it sounds to me like we're in agreement. No castles needed for an FFXIV setting to be interesting--it's all about the people and the story that takes place there. If the Steppe is one of Stormblood's few crown jewels, there's no reason other unusual fantasy locales couldn't be as equally compelling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

This still does nothing to fundamentally solve the issue that I prefer a European/Asian setting over an African or American continent one. I do not want to play a game in the setting depicted in that image. This is the picture that sold me on Stranger of Paradise, with Castle Cornelia rivalling even Ishgard in terms of beauty and iconicness:

https://static2.srcdn.com/wordpress/...&h=500&dpr=1.5

---

I don't know what to tell you, then. Thanalan, a near-Eastern/Arabian setting has existed from the beginning. In addition to Gridania. Each expansion save Heavensward has brought up more non-European settings, and they've been terrific.


If not having one specific thing not cater to your specific tastes turns you off, that's just a shame. I'd personally rather the devs keep giving us places like Gyr Abania, Doma, the Azim Steppe, the Ratika Greatwood, Ahm Araang, and Thavnair.

Personally speaking, for example, I don't actually find Garlemald's aesthetic or culture particularly compelling in and of itself. I still loved the story about them, in their dedicated zone, because it was compelling and full of emotional nuance and conflict I could connect to regardless of my having no strong feelings whatsoever about Roman or Russian architecture, customs, or nomenclature. (Or steampunk, for that matter.) So I don't see why that couldn't apply to any culturally x-inspired fantasy setting you can think of.

I really would like a second Far East expansion with Nagxia and Hingashi being at the forefront if meant getting to spend more time with characters like Yugiri, Gosetsu, and the steppe Xaela...though I'm lacking ideas about what could possibly serve as a strong driving force to have us go there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

So, it sounds to me like we're in agreement. No castles needed for an FFXIV setting to be interesting--it's all about the people and the story that takes place there. If the Steppe is one of Stormblood's few crown jewels, there's no reason other unusual fantasy locales couldn't be as equally compelling.

---

No, but they sure do help. The simple fact of the matter is that it is easier to sell European/Asian fantasy games to the Final Fantasy audience than whatever falls under the umbrella you describe as "unusual fantasy locales."

You have to consider the target audience here. You will have an easier time retaining and attracting players by doing new takes on locations that people have consistently expressed interest in seeing as opposing to ticking off cultures and regions like a checklist to fit some sort of quota.

A castle in the sky surrounded by the clouds of the dawn or an imperial palace where cherry blossom petals drift on the wind will instantly draw more people in than a jungle in the New World or...whatever it is they have in Australia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

Blossoms floating in the wind in a palace and fantasy structures in the air aren’t unique to Asian or French locations, though. Radz-at-Han is positively stunning and still has that fantasy vibe. You may not like it personally, but I’ll choose it over the snoozer that is the more classical Labyrinthos.

---

Stunning is not the word I would use to describe the region of Thavnair in any weather outside the Final Days, but ok. A more consistent color scheme would have gone a long way towards making the region more tolerable to be in, but as it is now I do not linger there like I used to back when Eulmore was our endgame hub.

I have yet to meet anyone who is a fan of Labyrinthos, there isn't much of anything classical about it that I can remember. It was an underground complex full of trees and the spaceship. It is not a location that has much in the way of revistability or role play value aside from the unique circumstances that were introduced in the Shadowbringers MSQ.

Again, know your audience. The audience FFXIV tries to appeal to isn't nearly as excited for an African/New World/Austrailia expansion despite whatever "uniqueness" such settings bring. They can be 1 or maximum 2 zones per expansion, but I have to ask myself why I would spend time in those zones if I had the option to go hang out in worlds like that of Elden Ring? Or Valisthea when FFXVI comes out?

With various things competing for our attention, I'm sorry to say but I'm more interested in visiting Castle Sanbreque than I am about visiting FFXIV's New World.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

I really would like a second Far East expansion with Nagxia and Hingashi being at the forefront if meant getting to spend more time with characters like Yugiri, Gosetsu, and the steppe Xaela...though I'm lacking ideas about what could possibly serve as a strong driving force to have us go there.

---

I'll do my best to provide one here:

I do not recall if Nagxia was based off any specific reason but if we assume it draws from China then I imagine a decent plot could revolve around restoring a monarchy there (if they ever had one?) based off the eastern principle of a mandate of Heaven wherefrom rulers of China derived the right to rule. While the leaders another nation want to establish a child puppet ruler in the region, the adventurer and their eastern allies embark on a task of uncovering the whereabouts of the trueborn heir of the previous dynasty.

In order to fulfill the mandate, you guide the heir on a journey of personal growth through battles against the enemy force while collecting the royal relics that were lost during the Garlean occupation. After a final battle in the sprawling complex of a "Forbidden City" like palace, you crown the heir as the son/daughter of Heaven, and peace is restored to the region.

Blossoms floating in the wind in a palace and fantasy structures in the air aren’t unique to Asian or French locations, though. Radz-at-Han is positively stunning and still has that fantasy vibe. You may not like it personally, but I’ll choose it over the snoozer that is the more classical Labyrinthos.

As much as I'm all for varied locales, I don't think we've even begun to scratch the surface in regards to what could be put into the game when tapping into various real world European cultures. There's barely any Polish influence within the game, for example - and being Scottish myself, I'd love to see some zones that take heavy inspiration from Scotland's varied landscape and folklore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

No, but they sure do help. The simple fact of the matter is that it is easier to sell European/Asian fantasy games to the Final Fantasy audience than whatever falls under the umbrella you describe as "unusual fantasy locales."

You have to consider the target audience here. You will have an easier time retaining and attracting players by doing new takes on locations that people have consistently expressed interest in seeing as opposing to ticking off cultures and regions like a checklist to fit some sort of quota.

---

Bruh, what?

Final Fantasy X, a FF game that was specifically modeled on far eastern cultures and aesthetics, is one of the highest-selling FF games ever. I don't think gamers are so simple that having one or two less European castles or aesthetics is going to lower sales. I don't even want to get into the "quota" thing, because that smells like politics waiting to happen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

As much as I'm all for varied locales, I don't think we've even begun to scratch the surface in regards to what could be put into the game when tapping into various real world European cultures. There's barely any Polish influence within the game, for example - and being Scottish myself, I'd love to see some zones that take heavy inspiration from Scotland's varied landscape and folklore.

---

This is where games like FFXVI and Dragon Age really show their strength, with each European culture they represent feeling distinct in various ways. Although some here may feel that Europe is full of the same castles copypasted over and over again, nothing could be further from the truth.

The stark contrast between the British-inspired Ferelden and the French/Italian Orlais was something I remember enjoying a lot when I played Dragon Age Inquisition. The party members of those games were also quite ideologically diverse despite being from roughly the same geographic region. I hope to see a similar contrast in FFXVI given how that game seems to have some inspirations from Dragon Age.

When people want to buy a video game, they are fundamentally looking for something that appeals to them whether it is a futuristic, European, or Asian style setting. In an ongoing game like this one, if it starts failing to provide what I am looking for and what initially attracted to me to it, then why should I remain? Why should I buy and play 2 years of a "New World Expansion" when another game could come out and actually give me the locations/characters I want to see?

I do not believe this is an unreasonable position. A quick google search of Scotland landscapes brings up beautiful images that remind one of Elden Ring's world or Coerthas when it wasn't frozen over that are very much worth exploring, and being a kingdom it brings with it cultural aspects that simply appeal more to me than something from Australia.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Bruh, what?

Final Fantasy X, a FF game that was specifically modeled on far eastern cultures and aesthetics, is one of the highest-selling FF games ever. I don't think gamers are so simple that having one or two less European castles or aesthetics is going to lower sales.

---

FF players are often interested in far eastern locations, myself included. I have expressed multiple times that I would like to revisit the ones in FFXIV again someday, but 7.0 isn't the time to do it. A return to a traditional Heavensward style expansion is what many want to see in 7.0. In any case one look at the numbers of Elden Ring's sales shows you that people worldwide are largely interested in worlds like the one it created, and if given the choice I will gladly spend my time there than the New World, especially with the state of the current main cast.

You will have a difficult time convincing me to play a game with Alphinaud once again mediating tribal conflicts in the New World or Australia while G'raha Tia eats the latest cuisine that most of the budget went into, and the others just being there barely contributing anything of value.

I think we're going around in circles, but there is one last thing I would say. I'd be wary of assuming your own taste is the taste of all players or that it's a purely rational "fact." More than one person in the topic has said they like the variety of locations that FFXIV explores and would be open to more. Assuming nothing fantastical could come out of locations like Africa or Australia is a failure of your own imagination, not the imagination of other players or--potentially--the devs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

I think we're going around in circles, but there is one last thing I would say. I'd be wary of assuming your own taste is the taste of all players or that it's a purely rational "fact." More than one person in the topic has said they like the variety of locations that FFXIV explores and would be open to more. Assuming nothing fantastical could come out of locations like Africa or Australia is a failure of your own imagination, not the imagination of other players or--potentially--the devs.

---

Well when we get an Australia themed fantasy world that sells as good as Elden Ring's world did, please do let me know.

Well, if we're getting Ilsabard as the next expansion, it stands to be the region most strongly influenced by European culture outside of Eorzea.

I've liked what little we've seen of it in places like Terncliff, so I would personally love to see more; perhaps getting to actually visit Werlyt and use it as a base of operations within a land still largely dominated by the Garlean legions.

On a more on-topic subject, I do kind of wonder if a notable figure perhaps making a Youtube video about some of more Endwalker's more...questionable elements would actually succeed at swaying opinions because as far as I've noticed I've seen nothing but gushing praise for it in that regard. I've particularly been enjoying Nobbel's (One of the former premier WoW loremongers) playthrough of the game because he really does not take things at face value and is constantly questioning the moral implications of events on both the heroic and villainous sides of things, nor does he seem to get particularly swept up in emotion (To a point where people were legitimately getting mad at him for it...), so I'm most interested in seeing his take on Endwalker.

It seems a little odd to point to "what is popular" and "what sells" as indicating what decisions the devs should make, in a discussion thread revolving around criticism of Endwalker, a wildly successful and popular expansion by all metrics. And often specifically criticizing the character of Venat, who is also incredibly popular and well-loved. Meanwhile, we've also been discussing why the Ancients in Shadowbringers were so narratively successful - by going against the grain of established tropes. So I'd like to think most of the thread can agree that more than "target audience" and "what sells" should be in consideration when making storytelling and setting choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

T
FF players are often interested in far eastern locations, myself included. I have expressed multiple times that I would like to revisit the ones in FFXIV again someday, but 7.0 isn't the time to do it. A return to a traditional Heavensward style expansion is what many want to see in 7.0. In any case one look at the numbers of Elden Ring's sales shows you that people worldwide are largely interested in worlds like the one it created, and if given the choice I will gladly spend my time there than the New World, especially with the state of the current main cast.

You will have a difficult time convincing me to play a game with Alphinaud once again mediating tribal conflicts in the New World or Australia while G'raha Tia eats the latest cuisine that most of the budget went into, and the others just being there barely contributing anything of value.

---

Elden Ring is a highly-polished, well-made game in a number of ways. That's not a very good example.

Also, unless there's a poll or something, I don't think anybody here is qualified to talk about what the "majority" of gamers want. Hell, it's not even like anybody is saying that the game needs to exclusively take place in some non-European setting. They can easily introduce some new European/Industrial-like setting alongside brand new locales set in places they've been hinting at for years. I don't see ANY good reason that players should need to wait another four years until 8.0 or later to travel to more exotic locations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Elden Ring is a highly-polished, well-made game in a number of ways. That's not a very good example.

---

If highly polished and well made games are not something that FFXIV should draw from, then what else is there? WoW?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrownySuccubus

Also, unless there's a poll or something, I don't think anybody here is qualified to talk about what the "majority" of gamers want. Hell, it's not even like anybody is saying that the game needs to exclusively take place in some non-European setting. They can easily introduce some new European/Industrial-like setting alongside brand new locales set in places they've been hinting at for years. I don't see ANY good reason that players should need to wait another four years until 8.0 or later to travel to more exotic locations.

---

Sounds great, I am more than happy to allow you to visit these "exotic locations" with Alphinaud et co. while I play FFXVI and Forspoken. Of course I would rather not abandon the game I've played since day 1 of its launch 8 years ago, but if there's no Garlean Empire, no castles, no Ascians, no Gods...why should I stay?

I'd rather not be preached to about more nebulous morals in some "exotic location" lifted from a real world geographic area that I just don't have any interest in. I'll gladly chase my castles in the sky somewhere else if that's the case.

I'm not terribly keen on more far east just yet. I finished SB not that long ago, so all of it is still relatively fresh for me. I liked the Azim Steppe because it reminded me of the Calm Lands in FFX, one of my favorite areas.

Personally, I tend to like the more fantastical looking zones that aren't based on anything in real life. I loved the look of The Plenty and wished there were more than 1/3 of a dungeon of it to explore. I also loved Lakeland with all the purple foliage and parts of Il Mheg. It's a video game, they can do anything they want, I wish they'd go nuts more. Azys Lla is impressive too, I just wish the skybox were a different hue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

On a more on-topic subject, I do kind of wonder if a notable figure perhaps making a Youtube video about some of more Endwalker's more...questionable elements would actually succeed at swaying opinions because as far as I've noticed I've seen nothing but gushing praise for it in that regard.

---

I've about given up on streamers. Even the ones who echo our thoughts all through Elpis end up turning heel at the sundering cutscene. I can only assume there's more controversy surrounding Venat among the Japanese audience for Yoshi-P to feel the need to "communicate she's not a bad guy". I have no idea where Japanese players discuss the game though, the JP forums every time I've checked are mostly gameplay related and not particularly active.

There was a video in my YouTube feed, something about Venat's difficult choice. I didn't watch it, but judging by the comments it was in defense of her.

There is quite a bit on the forum here and on reddit, to be fair. Even if it's shot down on the latter venue via downvoting, the actual topics remain visible and I'd imagine that at least some of them have come to the dev team's attention, much as the questions funnelled into the Q&A themselves would. Lurina had mentioned there's similar discussions on Venat in the JP community from what I remember.

I don't bother much with streamers, so I can't say I've paid much attention to what they or their audiences say as they generally interest me very little and tend to be disappointing from past experience.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If highly polished and well made games are not something that FFXIV should draw from, then what else is there? WoW?

---

This statement makes the false assumption that any successful game needs to copy every single aspect of another successful game. Which is wrong for several reasons -- not the least of which being that this is how you get "samey garbage" and stale tropes. The exact aesthetic and cultural location of Elden Ring's setting is not an especially essential facet of its success that needs to be copied. We don't need to set every open sandbox game in Fake Los Angeles just because GTA V, the most successful of those games, did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Sounds great, I am more than happy to allow you to visit these "exotic locations" with Alphinaud et co. while I play FFXVI and Forspoken. Of course I would rather not abandon the game I've played since day 1 of its launch 8 years ago, but if there's no Garlean Empire, no castles, no Ascians, no Gods...why should I stay?

I'd rather not be preached to about more nebulous morals in some "exotic location" lifted from a real world geographic area that I just don't have any interest in. I'll gladly chase my castles in the sky somewhere else if that's the case.

---

See, this contradicts your Elden Ring argument. You're making it sound that putting FFXIV down to go play some other game for a while is somehow going to result in them never playing FFXIV again. Yet, people here seem to be capable of playing both Elden Ring and FFXIV presently. So who cares if you decide you'd like to enjoy FFXVI and Forspoken for as long as they entertain you? By all means. Have at it.

And even if this did SOMEHOW result in you never playing FFXIV ever again, then so be it. If you don't want to abandon the game, you won't. If you decide that whatever other content in 7.0 and beyond is not worth your continued sub just because we didn't get Xerox Ishgard 2.0, then as I said before: that's a shame, but you do you.

the thing is... most medieval/fantasy games are based on europe. so sayong they should draw from good/well sold games is like declining any chances for different settings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PawPaw

It doesn't really matter how many ways you want to phrase it. If anything, he should already be incarcerated and instead is being allowed to take a position of power because of kept secrets. He cannot do a single thing that is worse than what he has already done. He is no longer needed to solve the problem at hand and is only a perceived hindrance because she allows him to be. And upsetting him is a complete nonstarter of a reason. He is absolutely unimportant compared to the problem at hand.

Imagine not telling world leaders about an alien threat because you're afraid of making the President of France sad. Oh no. But he might be the one person to make a difference. Guess we'll all just die instead. Ridiculous.

---

Of course it matters how it's phrased, because as you've just demonstrated, you've created a strawman with that entire second paragraph of your post. So, yes, that is indeed ridiculous the way you've phrase it, but it's also irrelevant to the story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

the complete inaction of Venat.

---

How do you know that? As a former member of the Convocation, Venat would be one of the resources used to try to help find a solution. It is only after Zodiark had solved the issue that Venat and her group disagreed with the Convocation in the matters of reviving their dead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

Yeah, the way in which the protagonists react to killing people they know have been given a raw deal is pretty unsettling. It's why I don't consider any of them to be heroes no matter how often the game tries to pretend otherwise.

---

I think that depends on your moral value.

I don't consider "given a raw deal" an excuse for wanting to kill me, and blaming it on someone else who "put" you in that position is not an excuse either. Everyone is responsible for their own action, not society, not someone else in particular.

So, yes, anyone who is brave enough to challenge these murderers is a hero to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Asari5

the thing is... most medieval/fantasy games are based on europe. so sayong they should draw from good/well sold games is like declining any chances for different settings.

---

Yes they should probably learn from what makes games like Elden Ring so successful. When I first saw footage of it, I was instantly hooked. Twisted demigods who fought a war against each other in a hauntingly beautiful kingdom lit up by trees of golden light? Sign me up. That's an adventure I want to go on. In fact, that's the adventure and world that 12 million people decided to purchase.

Anyway are we seriously pretending that all of Europe is the same across the board here? Last time I checked there were some marked differences between say the UK and Italy, both locations being exponentially more interesting and appealing than the empty savannah of Australia. When I first saw the trailer showing off Stormveil Castle, I knew I wanted to buy Elden Ring. Same for FFXVI when its first trailer showed off older Clive as a rugged hero similar to men like Cullen or Alistair from Dragon Age.

If the 7.0 trailer depicts some arid wasteland or jungle with the Scions...sorry but that just will not have the same effect. Even the Stranger of Paradise trailer would be a step above that.

I look forward to seeing the reception of a game that sees the Scions up to their usual business in the middle of New World's jungles in a world void of Gods or interesting antagonists. Bonus points if they bring Lyse along for the ride. At this point I think I'd rather put up with her than some of the present cast members because at least she is somewhat attractive to me compared to the likes of G'raha Tia, which the game insists on pushing onto me at every possible opportunity.

Of all the men in this game to push on to us, why did it have to be him and Haurchefant? Strangely enough, no women in this game even remotely seem to take on such an overtly "affectionate" role, though I suppose over time that would become as equally aggravating given the lack of an option to avoid such interactions when you're not interested.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brinne

...

---

Of course demigods etc exist in other cultures but forgive me if I'm more interested in the demigods of Greece and Europe as opposed to the Americas or Africa. Forgive me if I am more interested in the story of a rugged knight/forsaken prince like Clive or Hien than I am about Alphinaud and meme-status G'raha Tia.

If you cannot give me a setting or characters to latch on to and continue to shove ones I don't care about in my face, what is supposed to keep me paying? I will absolutely double down on the fact that I believe a traditional fantasy setting would be the best place to start off in 7.0, with a handful of better characters on the side as well. The Scions journeying in Meracydia=Austrailia/Africa or the New World=Americas cannot compare, and I am unlikely to be convinced of otherwise.

The idea that Europe and Europe alone is inextricably tied with ideas like "demigods," "war," "kingdoms," and above all, "trees of golden light" continues to be completely baffling to me, but all right? (Or "rugged hero," for that matter.) I mean, if aesthetic and architectural style in and of itself is so important that it trumps any possibilities for story, development, and creative potential with those styles for you, there's not much anyone can say but "sure." But those correlations are both very strange, and equally strange is the assurance that one person's individual tastes can definitively speak for the larger majority - both in what they potential settings they'd find interesting in Endwalker, and in what appealed to them in a game like Elden Ring.

Anyway, I'm as on board with the African, Australian, or any other -an-inspired fantasy environments equally, so long as they're used well. Like so many others, I loved Ishgard - and I also loved Thavnair and the Steppe and Ronka too. That they can co-exist in the same world enhances it, not detracts. All the variety for us to hang out in! It's a vast MMORPG that's been running for over ten years now. I think there's room to stretch in any aesthetic or creative direction anyone could want.

But suggesting that the developers should learn to appeal to the masses more if they want to keep customers continues to be very ?????? in the context of this thread in particular, of all threads.

People seem to be under a weird misconception that primals are suddenly going to be absent from the story and/or are no longer a threat simply because means to counteract and cure tempering exist now.

At the core, they are still extremely powerful entities that were noted as taking entire regiments of trained soldiers to keep in check even in the case of the lunar primals that were undeniably weaker then their willfully-produced counterparts.

Foreign lands are not at the leisure of having access to those countermeasures, either, so I think it's a given we're still going to be running into them on the overseas continents and likely even in Ilsabard despite the strong Garlean presence.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If you cannot give me a setting or characters to latch on to and continue to shove ones I don't care about in my face, what is supposed to keep me paying?

---

Forgive me for being a little abrasive here, but I promise you with absolute certainty that nobody here is that concerned about making sure you keep paying, or convincing you to fall in love with any particular culture. Where it starts to go into "strange" territory was the insistence that you could speak for the wants of the majority of players based on baffling and frankly, fallacious arguments.

All anyone here, or anywhere else, can do, is speak for themselves. I can post here in an attempt to convey to the team, and to others, how I felt about the story of Endwalker, and if that resonates with anyone, or clarifies anything, to someone who reads that post - one way or another, positive or negative - that's great and all I can ask for. When I say I absolutely loved Ronka and its aesthetic - I actually gasped and gushed about how beautiful I found the locale of the Rak'tika Greatwood and all its trappings when first playing Shadowbringers - I know I am only speaking for myself. G'raha Tia is not my favorite character either - and I like Hien far less - but I can acknowledge that I'm in the minority in those regards without asserting that most people definitely agree with me, and the devs had therefore better listen on those grounds.

It's a fantasy game, but it's also a final fantasy game, which means it can involve technology (mostly in the form of magitek, the garlean empire and ancient allag at the moment). It doesn't quite follow the same rules as other fantasy stories. I was impressed how they managed to make something straying so far into science fiction with space and time travel still feel like a fantasy story.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If you cannot give me a setting or characters to latch on to and continue to shove ones I don't care about in my face, what is supposed to keep me paying? I will absolutely double down on the fact that I believe a traditional fantasy setting would be the best place to start off in 7.0, with a handful of better characters on the side as well. The Scions journeying in Meracydia=Austrailia/Africa or the New World=Americas cannot compare, and I am unlikely to be convinced of otherwise.

---

I think they should tell whatever final fantasy story they want to tell rather than clickbaiting with an exciting-looking area that doesn't deliver because it wasn't the story they wanted to tell. If it's another desert or jungle that's fine with me.

My own view is they should focus on making the setting interesting whatever they draw upon and avoid any preachy lecturing, particularly if they're shifting the focus to conflicts of "values" - I still want to see what they mean by that. I too will not be sitting around to endure more Alphirants or similar, particularly if they end up pushing values conflicting with my own, especially in terms of character responses. If EW is presaging what that's going to be like? Hard pass.

A proper rendition of Egypt could be interesting, because what we've seen so far is limited to a couple of dungeons. There's also other ancient cultures, like Persia, Babylon, Assyria and Phoenicia that they could draw on - I wouldn't say no to something based off the Aztecs or Maya. The expansions (other than SB) tend to be a mix of zones after all, so there's scope to cater to a variety of tastes. As Theodric mentioned, although most fantasy games draw on Europe, it tends to be medieval western Europe, so there's other regions and time periods (Rennaissance in particular) of the continent they could explore as well, and Ilsabard would be a good place to do so. As Rulakir said, it is a fantasy game at the end of the day, so focus should also go into making the locales somewhat otherworldly, and really try to visually differentiate it from existing zones - something both SHB and EW didn't always succeed at. My hope is that the graphics upgrade will allow for more detailed zones that can more closely match their concept art.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KageTokage

People seem to be under a weird misconception that primals are suddenly going to be absent from the story and/or are no longer a threat simply because means to counteract and cure tempering exist now.

At the core, they are still extremely powerful entities that were noted as taking entire regiments of trained soldiers to keep in check even in the case of the lunar primals that were undeniably weaker then their willfully-produced counterparts.

Foreign lands are not at the leisure of having access to those countermeasures, either, so I think it's a given we're still going to be running into them on the overseas continents and likely even in Ilsabard despite the strong Garlean presence.

---

Agreed - tempering just made the costs of fighting them all the more pyrrhic, but given enough aether, they're still capable of posing an immense threat. Aetheric WMDs. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Forgive me if I am more interested in the story of a rugged knight/forsaken prince like Clive or Hien than I am about Alphinaud and meme-status G'raha Tia.

---

Indeed, I think more variety in the Scions in that direction would help. Part of why I was hoping for a fresh cast + Estinien.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yes they should probably learn from what makes games like Elden Ring so successful.

---

Fromsoft game, souls-like, Miyazaki's name(<most important part) plastered all over the place, HYPE! = instant success and game of the year with 0% chance of failure.

Not exactly difficult. It's like final fantasy in that (although final fantasy has at least tried something different in the gameplay).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I look forward to seeing the reception of a game that sees the Scions up to their usual business in the middle of New World's jungles in a world void of Gods or interesting antagonists. Bonus points if they bring Lyse along for the ride. At this point I think I'd rather put up with her than some of the present cast members because at least she is somewhat attractive to me compared to the likes of G'raha Tia, which the game insists on pushing onto me at every possible opportunity.

Of all the men in this game to push on to us, why did it have to be him and Haurchefant? Strangely enough, no women in this game even remotely seem to take on such an overtly "affectionate" role, though I suppose over time that would become as equally aggravating given the lack of an option to avoid such interactions when you're not interested.

---

Alisaie would be the one filling that role. Whether the player interprets her admiration for the WoL as a simple girls crush, or a mentorship and inspiration, it is there nonetheless. That's it though. As far as the close company we keep anyway. I would also argue that no male is pushed onto the WoL more than Zenos.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Alisaie would be the one filling that role. Whether the player interprets her admiration for the WoL as a simple girls crush, or a mentorship and inspiration, it is there nonetheless. That's it though. As far as the close company we keep anyway. I would also argue that no male is pushed onto the WoL more than Zenos.

---

Alisae is a child. Not an adult. I am not interested in a child having a crush on my character. There are no adult women in this game who behave the way Alisae or G'raha do. Zenos was insufferable from start to finish. Never make another villain like that.

This cast at present is too stale to carry me through a 7.0 in a setting that doesn't click with me on top of the moralizing and nation-toppling agendas that would inevitably come from the likes of the Scions.

The events of Endwalker have robbed the world of the elements that made it interesting to be in, the Empire, the Ascians, and the Gods, and now we are left with the Scions, a community that feels that Meracydia must=Africa/Australia and that the New World must=the Americas, the twitter fandom surrounding G'raha and Y'shtola, and people who believe that "ugh another castle/European nation would be boring."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brinne

Forgive me for being a little abrasive here, but I promise you with absolute certainty that nobody here is that concerned about making sure you keep paying.

---

Is the goal of SE to sell me their product or not? Is their goal not to keep me paying my sub? The interesting things that brought me here and got me to stay are done and resolved-I didn't come here for a visual novel where nothing of consequence happens in niche settings I fundamentally have little interest in compared to Ishgard or Garlemald.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Alisaie would be the one filling that role. Whether the player interprets her admiration for the WoL as a simple girls crush, or a mentorship and inspiration, it is there nonetheless. That's it though. As far as the close company we keep anyway. I would also argue that no male is pushed onto the WoL more than Zenos.

---

As much as I dislike Zenos, his obsession can at least be seen as entirely one sided. Most games have the good grace to allow players to consent to whether a particular character fawns over their chosen hero. As another poster pointed out, Alisae is underage and although G'raha is an adult he acts like a child at times. It's incredibly off-putting for a lot of reasons - especially when player characters have the ability to perform an eternal bonding with another player character.

It's effectively marriage, so if a character is eternally bonded...why are some of the Scions treating my character as if that isn't the case? Why are they actively trying to be homewreckers? Why is there no option to tell Alisae that my character is into men and let her down gently rather than unintentionally stringing her along?

Furthermore, Yoshi-P has already referred to Alisae and Alphinaud as the 'waifu' and 'husbandu' of some players which...is pretty questionable in itself for obvious reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric

As much as I dislike Zenos, his obsession can at least be seen as entirely one sided. Most games have the good grace to allow players to consent to whether a particular character fawns over their chosen hero. As another poster pointed out, Alisae is underage and although G'raha is an adult he acts like a child at times. It's incredibly off-putting for a lot of reasons - especially when player characters have the ability to perform an eternal bonding with another player character.

It's effectively marriage, so if a character is eternally bonded...why are some of the Scions treating my character as if that isn't the case? Why are they actively trying to be homewreckers? Why is there no option to tell Alisae that my character is into men and let her down gently rather than unintentionally stringing her along?

Furthermore, Yoshi-P has already referred to Alisae and Alphinaud as the 'waifu' and 'husbandu' of some players which...is pretty questionable in itself for obvious reasons.

---

Ngl I always felt weirded out by ppl who basically ship themselves with random fictional characters, but seeing as one of the most active threads related to FFXIV is the most vapid attempts at finding a partner, I'm not surprised.

What's wrong with having a bit of colonial era fantasy? Given the age of exploration seems to be when 14 is set.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HollowedDoll

Ngl I always felt weirded out by ppl who basically ship themselves with random fictional characters, but seeing as one of the most active threads related to FFXIV is the most vapid attempts at finding a partner, I'm not surprised.

---

Yeah, it used to bother me less but we're now stuck in a situation with no compromises. The game insists on pushing the Scions front and centre at every turn to the point where new characters struggle to integrate themselves properly into the story. As much as I liked Shadowbringers, I think it would have been better if more of the Scions had been left behind.

I'm indifferent to Ryne, though I appreciated that she was a new face and travelled with us across every part of Norvrandt. Heavensward was enjoyable as a consequence of having most of the Scions take a back seat which in turn allowed Estinien and Ysayle to shine properly.

If the point is to appeal to the most players, then I’m not sure why G’raha Tia is under so much fire? He’s the most popular living character right now, so it only makes “logical” sense to use him as much as they can and avoid gruff and/or masculine types, as the player base doesn’t respond well to them.

Luckily, while we’ll probably be seeing a lot of G’raha Tia in the future, I don’t think the popularity of him or others of his type will stop them from making characters like Hien (or Gosetsu) should the plot call for it. Just like a wilderness zone doesn’t mean we will never set eyes on a castle ever again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

If the point is to appeal to the most players, then I’m not sure why G’raha Tia is under so much fire? He’s the most popular living character right now, so it only makes “logical” sense to use him as much as they can and avoid gruff and/or masculine types, as the player base doesn’t respond well to them.

Luckily, while we’ll probably be seeing a lot of G’raha Tia in the future, I don’t think the popularity of him or others of his type will stop them from making characters like Hien (or Gosetsu) should the plot call for it. Just like a wilderness zone doesn’t mean we will never set eyes on a castle ever again.

---

Because he no longer behaves as the Crystal Exarch many of us enjoyed during the 5.0 MSQ and his slice-of-life stories make for absolutely nothing of substance. He is quite literally a comfort character that is still here because they did not want to go against the twitter community who would have absolutely moved on to the next available "pretty boy" the moment they stepped onscreen.

The degree to which a character is aligned with masculinity or feminity also influences how people receive them, both in appearance and behavior. Estinien and Hien are both masculine in their mannerisms and appearance and while Aymeric leans more towards pretty in his appearance, he is nevertheless a chivalrous knight-type character whose mannerisms aren't unusual.

Contrast this with G'raha Tia, who is a Face 3 catboy with hair that vaguely resembles that of a pre-school girl, with socially awkward mannerisms and general clinginess. This isn't the Exarch I enjoyed seeing on-screen in Shadowbringers anymore. He's a strange character who I am eager to leave behind.