Why I Decided to Become an Elitist

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Originally Posted by Brill_

There was no chance for improvement because all this happened on the first wipe. Second, yes, elitists expect perfection. Thats why we see tons of PF that say "1 wipe = kick" Thats why people rage quit from a training party after 1 wipe, because all the elitists expect perfection.

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Most of the people who start groups like that are not elite players, they're people who expect everyone else to be perfect so they don't have to put in any effort. They're people who want a carry.

Second, I guarantee you not one person who considers themselves "elite" expects perfection. (Except perhaps from themselves*)

And lastly, shutting down any attempt at understanding and painting everyone with the asshole brush is exactly why a lot of high-tier players don't even bother helping newbies anymore.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

No but ironically you're being your version of elitist by telling people they need to conform to the way you use words.

60 pages later and most of you don't understand I was using the word "elitist" ironically.

Like "You're going to call me an elitist because I actually try. Okay, fine, then I'm an elitist."

I wasn't embracing lording anything over people but I do think wanting to do your best is a superior attitude to being whiny and blaming others for your own failures.

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Using a word in it's accepted description is not being elitist.

So if you were using the term ironically, because people have been calling you an elitist even when you weren't, you're acknowledging that the term elitist is used in a negative fashion amongst this community.

And yes, trying to better yourself is always a good thing, however the way you came about making this point was to put down the other side unnecessarily. There are bad/rude players on ALL levels. I cannot stress this enough. Those People who will be entitled, people who have the mental maturity of a 5 year old, maybe people who are just naive when it comes to how to behave in an MMO. It is best if we all try to be better people, and ignore those who are going to rage and throw hissies. Ignore those who are going to claim you're elitist simply for wanting to abandon after 20 minutes of straight wipes, whatever the case is. There could have been a decent conversation going had there not been unnecessary attacks right out the gate.

64 pages? Wut? I stopped reading after about 10 pages, and then I see this thread again and it's up to 64 now. I... err... what am I even reading here?

... actually:

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Originally Posted by Magusrex

Snip.

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Both this guy and ThirdChild have the same mind as I do on this topic. I could share stories about a guy I know who isn't very good at playing the game and dodging things, but makes other random people I've met look even worse due to those people doing "Wipeonceinstaabandon"... but this said guy doesn't give up. But eh.

Now then:

http://images.onesite.com/capcom-uni...a4.gif?v=57960

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

When I join DF I expect there may be new players, and it is fun helping them (note helping, not carrying a dead weight) to get their first clear, even if a wipe or 3 is involved, laugh it off, bolster them, throw out some advice for next try. But I won't keep a plyer in who fails at the most basic things constantly, holds back the party and turns to insults when friendly advice is given or totally ignores it and continues to be a douche. I'll ask the party in party chat if they want to replace because, so the player can see why they are getting removed to try and shake them into seeing where the problem really lies. It always leads to a kick, tis a shame, but their actions where spoiling it for everyone else.

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I joined t9 through DF for the first time tonight and someone already got mad at me for only watching the cutscene :/

The typical questions followed and well, I am one of those who want to learn by doing it (and I think that's the best way for me*), so I did not watch a video. I felt really uncomfortable after this, because the other responses came off to me as negative, especially about the part for not watching a video.

I received some remarks for dieing early, someone would go mad because he/she studied so many vids and I didn't and in the end one of them would keep aggro'ing the boss to wipe us so he would get kicked.

Mind you, I did start a PF with a comment about "first time" and "learning it without having to watch a guide first" before entering the DF but other than a friend who went with me in the first place, no one else would join. Maybe it was because of the time (after midnight), but I have a bit of a bad feeling it won't be better if I try it during the day/evening again.

Well, at least my friend showed me a few things when we were in and I am grateful for that, but it's not like I begged her to do so. She also said that it's the only thing she'll tell me and that she'll always go in again with me to help me learn. I might be able to find a few more people who would go with me again, but I cannot say if it will be a full party.

tl;dr:
Went into t9 without watching a guide beforehand, got some negative responses but a few hints from a friend. Did start a PF before but wouldn't fill up in 1 hour - Now confused/unsure what (DF/PF) to use next time as it either contains mad/annoyed people or it's not a full group.


P.S.: I do not want to get carried. Even if I get a group full of people who have done it before (like t8) and I am the only one who didn't - I want to contribute to the fight, not lie around dead and try to understand what is going on. Gotta do t8 again to understand it fully though. Oh and I would never cuss at someone who gives out a helpful info to me. Biting a helping hand? Nah.


* I did so for t6 a while ago, but the screen looked messy to me and I couldn't really follow what was going on. Even if I understood a mechanic, doing it myself was giving me a hard time because I was kind of nervous. Just like now, while I am typing this post :S

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I'm sick of people making the point that being elite is better than being elitist. Being elite means being superior. Being elitist means feeling you are superior. So it's okay to be superior but you're not allowed to believe you're superior?

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Additional thought...I'm not making the point that elite is better than elitist, the point is they are entirely different things. Elitist is not a degree of being elite, it's not some kind of stepping stoneon the way to being elite, it's a behavior, not a status.

I honestly don't know where to begin. Being elite, means actually being elite. Being elitist means actively discriminating against those you believe are inferior to you. Being elitist does not confer elite status, nor is 'elitist' a status you can achieve, it's a behavior you indulge in. Believe you are superior all you like, but be honest with yourself about what being elitist actually means, and while your chugging along in you ego driven belief in your own superiority - whether deserved or not - do not be surprized by the negative reactions your little egobtrip will generate. In the meantime at least be honedt enough to accept that you are attempting to stretch the word "elitist" far beyond it's actual meaning, and in a way that is not in harmony with the comon use of the word.

At the end of the day, your abuse of the English language doesn't alter the fact that elitist doesn't mean what you think it means. A better word for what you are describing is pretentious.

Either way, thanks for replying, and once again confirming my original thought regarding what you are saying.

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redefining elitism to fit your framework, does not in fact redefine it. I've seen all of this before and what you a re talking about is not elitism, it's veteran player fatigue which brings with it a nasty dose of intolerance for other players, new players and anyone/anything that does not meet the exact specifications of the fatigued veteran player at that time.

The attitude that demands others watch a video before playing is selfish pure and simple. Many players wish to experience content the first time by actually playing it.Shocking I know, imagine that wanting to play this game instead if simply viewing it on You Tube....

Elitism stems from the elitist who believes themself rightly or wrongly, to be superior to others, not player fatigue.

Dressing up the bitter intolerance that comes from the fatigue as elitism doesn't make it elitism, even if rationalizing it that way makes you feel better about your self.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I'm sick of people making the point that being elite is better than being elitist. Being elite means being superior. Being elitist means feeling you are superior. So it's okay to be superior but you're not allowed to believe you're superior?

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Yes, they absolutely refuse to accept that reality. They'd rather it remain nothing more than a pejorative and only a pejorative despite the fact is has a perfectly acceptable definition that isn't at all a pejorative. It's close minded. Yes, it has a pejorative definition, but it also has one that isn't. BOTH are accurate uses of the word. This incessant push for there to be only one is inaccurate and comes from a group of people who wants to do nothing but push hate on others.

There is very explicitly a definition here http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/elitist?s=t that has no negative connotations at all. However, that is to be ignored it seems solely to support one definition that is entirely pejorative. It's ignorant to assume words have one meaning. It's ignorant to assume the one YOU want is the only one that is valid. THAT is being pretentious. Both the pejorative definition and the non-pejorative definition exist, are real, and are valid definitions of elitist whether you like it or not. If you have a problem with that definition take it up with dictionary.com. NOT us.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Let me share tonights experience. I started a T9 TRAINING party in PF. It was listed as a training party. After 90 minutes, we finally get 8 people. Go in, we eventually wipe and one of the elitists start going off on people not knowing the fight. He rage quits and the party ends up disbanding. Not once did he explain to anyone what they did wrong. It's these experiences are why people can't learn fights, because none of the elitists will give people a chance to learn. They sabotage training parties and expect perfection.

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That's just an a-hole. Not an elitist. Based on your story he never insinuated HE was elite. He was just being nasty. We have older and better words for these situations that have nothing to do with being elite. It was YOU who assumed he was elite based on nothing what so ever other than the fact he left in a hissy fit. That is a some pretty poor evidence someone is an elitist.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

And lastly, shutting down any attempt at understanding and painting everyone with the asshole brush is exactly why a lot of high-tier players don't even bother helping newbies anymore.

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I hear exactly this from people who would be dubbed "elitists" more than anything. Their sick of the "casual" crowd treating them like crap when they just want to help. Maybe if people stopped using the elitist title so inappropriately. Just like that previous example. The person got frustrated and left and got called an elitist here yet no possible information existed to say that person was elite to begin with. It was an inappropriate label for someone who was just being a complete jerk, a**, bas***d, etc. Elitist requires the person to have a known high skill level. When you don't know how good they were and you call him an elitist you are actively applying the word to someone who hasn't earned the right to even be labeled elitist. It's at that point elitist is being used solely as a pejorative and not as an accurate descriptor of the person being discussed.

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Originally Posted by Coris

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i am sorry,but from what you said you aren't exactly in the clear,just because your group didn't fill up does not justify you going in DF fully knowing that this is the type of community that expects you to atleast have a general idea of what you'll be doing via a guide,and you still went in DF fully knowing what the mechanics in this game are like(many of them will wipe a person that doesn't know what they do many,many times,infact some of them take the best teams in the game weeks to understand completely and that's why they make guides)you have to consider that odds are,you will be a liability for your group 9/10 times because your mindset is not very widespread.no,your group not filling up does not make it right that you wasted people's time like that,and no,just because you have a way of learning that's different from most people is not a bad thing,you just shouldn't push that on people that 9 out of 10 will expect anyone that goes to coil to atleast understand the mechanics from a guide

Well I'm calling it already in regards to Alexander in 3.0.

According to information being given out, Alexander normal will still be too difficult for some players. There will be posts on the forums complaing about its difficulty. Some players cannot handle turn 5 even now. So, ima gine them in Alexander normal. Yep, nerf alexander posts incoming. Just look back at the "steps is too difficult, NERF NAO" post if you don't believe me.

Alexander savage, same again, there will be posts on the forums demanding it gets nerfed as entitlement will kick in to want the gear from it without the effort. I won't be surprised if some of those are from some who said they wanted Coil nerfed "for the story and not the loot".

There's really no way to do a fight blind via DF. If you don't watch a guide and you're wiping 7 other people, they're going to explain what you're supposed to do. You're just trading watching a guide for getting an explanation. There are some important differences though. A guide is visual and a guide is on your own time. But whatever way you choose, you're not really figuring it out on your own. You really do need PF groups for that. Purists who want to learn things themselves and be "untainted" by guide hand-holding are a real minority in this game. The chances of randomly queuing up with 7 other people who will let you solve the puzzle of each mechanic without giving you any advice are slim to none.

This is not an ideological argument. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, you should use PF if this is your goal.

@Davester:
What other options did/do I have then? I went with one friend - more were either busy or offline. I had a PF up before too and what I think of guides is what I've said above.
I think DF is meant to be used to go in a fight if you can't get a (full) group beforehand. I want to learn that fight but with people leaving fast or not joining at all that's not an easy thing to do.

I like that "wasting other people's time" thing. Imho there are people out there who would consider playing games/MMOs as a waste of time...

By the way, I also think it is a matter of wording too. I accept it when others don't want to play with first timers through DF, but getting nasty about it? Please no.