So Yoshi-P just confirmed jobs won't get a big rework in 8.0.

I'm not expecting any major changes. It's been over 12 years of the same comfortable pattern... It feels all-too-clear to me, it has felt all-too-clear to me, that the devs are very entrenched with the way they do things.

The momentum of such a development style accrued during those 12 years cannot be ignored.

Do not expect a massive shake-up, for it isn't coming.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

That sounds very reasonable and i would wish that to be possible. Lets say they manage to change things so you are happy and i am happy. There will be people that are then dissatisfied by the changes, either because not enough or too much was changed and then they complain or quit the game. No one wins like that. Its an endless cycle. People complained and screamed for changes in HW, SB, SHB, EW and DT. And the balance in terms of numbers is quite good right now, if at all it was terrible in HW and SB. Also in my opinion some degree of homogenization is just relevant in order to keep things balanced. For example you cant just give a tank a longer cooldown and higher mitigation in return. That would just make that tank undesirable. Im not sure what the devs will come up with but i think that the jobs will largely play like they do now. The 2min meta will stay. There will probably be more actions turning into new actions so they dont increase the button limit. Maybe we see more 30sec cds to make jobs feel more active, but in the end i think everything will be divisible by 120sec for alignments sake. Small changes that could add up in the end, but that is all speculation. However i wouldnt have high expectations.

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You know what will really destroy the job balance? Not having any jobs when the game shuts down if it cannot convince players to stay or older players to come back. And while you may disagree, there is a lot of animosity toward the current job design landscape. A lot of people aren't going to stick around for if it doesn't change. I've already left because of it. I'm only on here because of the free login, of which I logged in for about 6 seconds because hell to the no am I going to touch any amount of PVE content with jobs the way they are now. So bigger changes to job design might be better than you think when it comes to job balance if it allows job balance to still be a thing.

You say you've seen people leave over job design before, but I've never seen as much friction against the job design paradigm as with DT. SB was not perfect, but people were far more content with their favorite jobs then even if there were things they felt could change. And that's the difference. It's one thing to feel your job could be better, but still enjoy it, and another thing to wish your job could be better because you can't enjoy it.

Eh, they're just breaking the healers and Dark Knight to build them back up guys. Right right.

We're just 4 years away from a decade of Glare spam. Almost there guys!

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Originally Posted by Doragan

Eh, they're just breaking the healers and Dark Knight to build them back up guys. Right right.

We're just 4 years away from a decade of Glare spam. Almost there guys!

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Don't forget to add SMN into that same litter bin, mate.

I still cackle to this day at whoever used to believe this complacent devs would actually build anything on top of EW SMN.

I'd rather have them tackle more serious problems. I dont think job design is bad at all. There are some jobs feeling worse though i wont deny that. Healers could easily have a small dps rotation added to them, but i understand that instead of having a dps rotation, they have a mitigation/healing rotation that they need to map depending on the fight.

I'd like to see them add more UI customization, new character creation options, like aura horns etc, replayability to content, reward structure reworked, not having to wait 4.5 months for a patch, but rather 2.5 months maybe. These things would make players stay, not jobs that feel "fun" bug no content to play. Fun is very objective and there are enough players liking the jobs right now.

Also like others have said, i would not expect a shake up after so many years. Everyone who was here for a while knows how it works. I even expect more reworks into the direction they took with DT.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

I'd like to see them add more UI customization, new character creation options, like aura horns etc, replayability to content, reward structure reworked, not having to wait 4.5 months for a patch, but rather 2.5 months maybe. These things would make players stay, not jobs that feel "fun" bug no content to play. Fun is very objective and there are enough players liking the jobs right now.

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While I agree with wanting a lot of these things, a 2.5 month major patch cycle is an insane ask. Honestly I wish they'd stop the drip feed of major patch content, and instead if they want it break it up do it in weeks rather than months, but 2.5 months between major patch cycles is like... impossible. I can't think of a single MMO that has ever pushed them out that fast. You would need an insanely large dev team to do that without completely and totally running your devs ragged. Honestly four months feels more like a the sweet spot that we hit and we strayed from.

To be honest, Yoshi P really needs to start showing more of the ideas they have, so they can begin receiving feedback and at the same time ease the current situation of the game.
They’re at a point where promises aren’t enough anymore—especially not making us wait over a year just to see what their plans are.
I’d even go as far as to say they should let us test some of the things they’re planning to do. At least, I think that would be the ideal approach given the current situation.
Right now, the only thing keeping me playing is leveling the jobs I still have left and doing Crescent content, nothing more—and I doubt that will keep me going for much longer.

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

While I agree with wanting a lot of these things, a 2.5 month major patch cycle is an insane ask. Honestly I wish they'd stop the drip feed of major patch content, and instead if they want it break it up do it in weeks rather than months, but 2.5 months between major patch cycles is like... impossible. I can't think of a single MMO that has ever pushed them out that fast. You would need an insanely large dev team to do that without completely and totally running your devs ragged. Honestly four months feels more like a the sweet spot that we hit and we strayed from.

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I agree, 2.5 months will be impossible. But maybe they could manage to reduce the development time by a month at some point, so that we only wait 3.5 months rather than 4.5 months. I know the devs are having their hands full right now, working 70 hour weeks already, not having enough people to speed up the cycle, but maybe at some point it will work to shorten wait time or they manage to put out content that lasts for 4.5 months.

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

I'd rather have them tackle more serious problems. I dont think job design is bad at all.

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I think there's quite a large amount of people who see jobs playing the exact same way with very minimal differences for the 4th expansion in a row to be quite a serious problem, and as it continues longer, the amount only grows larger.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think there's quite a large amount of people who see jobs playing the exact same way with very minimal differences for the 4th expansion in a row to be quite a serious problem, and as it continues longer, the amount only grows larger.

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Agreed. It’s the largest problem in my opinion. UI and character creation improvements are nice, but are far from things I’d consider “major” but those are done by different departments anyway so there’s no reason we can’t have both. Content and job design should really go hand-in-hand.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I think there's quite a large amount of people who see jobs playing the exact same way with very minimal differences for the 4th expansion in a row to be quite a serious problem, and as it continues longer, the amount only grows larger.

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The amount can't grow if SE convinces those people to quit.

Can confirm, class design and the way they play is THE biggest reason I don't play much anymore. I keep my house and I log on to occasionally raid or go to venues with my guild, but if the social side dried up I'd end up cancelling *shrug*

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Originally Posted by Kishin12345

I'd rather have them tackle more serious problems. I dont think job design is bad at all. There are some jobs feeling worse though i wont deny that. Healers could easily have a small dps rotation added to them, but i understand that instead of having a dps rotation, they have a mitigation/healing rotation that they need to map depending on the fight.

I'd like to see them add more UI customization, new character creation options, like aura horns etc, replayability to content, reward structure reworked, not having to wait 4.5 months for a patch, but rather 2.5 months maybe. These things would make players stay, not jobs that feel "fun" bug no content to play. Fun is very objective and there are enough players liking the jobs right now.

Also like others have said, i would not expect a shake up after so many years. Everyone who was here for a while knows how it works. I even expect more reworks into the direction they took with DT.

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the developers that work on job design dont work on UI or aura horns though

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Originally Posted by seolhyun

the developers that work on job design dont work on UI or aura horns though

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isnt yoshida always saying how they switch around their people to make them do various work?

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Originally Posted by Asari5

isnt yoshida always saying how they switch around their people to make them do various work?

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I mean, even if they do, staff is unlikely to do tasks in both departments at once.

I also doubt they switch people between positions of wildly different profile. I can see a concept artist who normally works on gear being tasked with designing dungeon's visual design, but they're unlikely to be tasked with battle design because that's a completely different skill.

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Originally Posted by Asari5

isnt yoshida always saying how they switch around their people to make them do various work?

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Yep thats what i heard, too. And that they dont have enough people to do multiple things at the same time. I read that only 4 devs work on jobs at the same time.
They even thought about outsourcing the New ultimate weapons for new jobs from the older ultimates iirc. We're supposed to get more ultimate weapons for the old ultimates in this expansion. We'll see if thats true.

outsourcing? sounds good. if they start doing this now they'll might wanna do it for other stuff too at some point.... like hats and hairstyles... and dyeable dungeongear... and old ex weapons... and... and...and a lot more

I just can't dig any further, the bar is as low as it will get.

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Originally Posted by Zeekdober

I just can't dig any further, the bar is as low as it will get.

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Don't worry. Based off the past 4 expansions I'm sure the devs are actively trying to put the bar underground with whatever job changes they are cooking for 8.0.

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Originally Posted by echo78

Don't worry. Based off the past 4 expansions I'm sure the devs are actively trying to put the bar underground with whatever job changes they are cooking for 8.0.

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Changes? HAH. Some minimal aspects that they will celebrate like the holy grail, as usual.

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Originally Posted by echo78

Don't worry. Based off the past 4 expansions I'm sure the devs are actively trying to put the bar underground with whatever job changes they are cooking for 8.0.

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Damn, they figured out how to mine through bedrock before they found out how to make Jobs fun again...

I dont know why people keep saying maybe they will add talent points and why the hell would you want that? In other mmos the talent points would be adjusted from low level to high level. in FF14 it will only be for max level. So the moment you do content thats not max level you lose all that and will end up in shite experience.

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Originally Posted by Claria-Vivian

I dont know why people keep saying maybe they will add talent points and why the hell would you want that? In other mmos the talent points would be adjusted from low level to high level. in FF14 it will only be for max level. So the moment you do content thats not max level you lose all that and will end up in shite experience.

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Problem is any content that is lower then like 80 already feels really bad to play, who's having a good experience doing ARR content on a job with half the skills in the first place?

As much as they need and should fix lower level content, I can at least hope they will try and make the current content they are designing fun, I rather not they use the excuse of "old content will be worse off" because it's already such a low bar that if they're gonna continue to ignore old content I much rather they not restrict what they're doing based off it.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Problem is any content that is lower then like 80 already feels really bad to play, who's having a good experience doing ARR content on a job with half the skills in the first place?

As much as they need and should fix lower level content, I can at least hope they will try and make the current content they are designing fun, I rather not they use the excuse of "old content will be worse off" because it's already such a low bar that if they're gonna continue to ignore old content I much rather they not restrict what they're doing based off it.

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A rework should start from level 1. Build a foundation so synched feels good. So that level increases are easy to do as long as the job hasn't become completely broken for some reason. If the game ever gets a new influx the game feels good at the start.


What I don't understand is they add a new job like viper. They should put a full version of the skills at level 1. Call them tier 1 skills and the new leveling versions tier 2. This doesn't fix old jobs. Oh no viper is to good in crystal tower or tam tara, Big deal.

A lot also depends on whether they will add the new entry point for new players skipping ARR-EW (and Dawntrail?). Yoshida mentioned it, but they were still undecided as it's pushing players away from their success story ;) If they do a new entry point, they could list more or all jobs as starting options and line up abilities so that they are good at every level range. Next question - will they squish levels? Will they move away from adding new levels with expansions?

current content? the relic weapon?

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Originally Posted by Asari5

current content? the relic weapon?

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Sooo…. 2nd tomestone weapon?

Ah, we're in the borrowed power phase of decline. Sweet.

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Originally Posted by sharknado

A lot also depends on whether they will add the new entry point for new players skipping ARR-EW (and Dawntrail?). Yoshida mentioned it, but they were still undecided as it's pushing players away from their success story ;) If they do a new entry point, they could list more or all jobs as starting options and line up abilities so that they are good at every level range. Next question - will they squish levels? Will they move away from adding new levels with expansions?

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That would have been a good idea had DT not been so dreadful.

DT doesn't even work as a starting point since the entire hook is that we and our allies are using our worldly experience from the many adventures and trials to guide Wuk Lamat, Koana, and later, Galool Ja into being good leaders by speed running their growth and setting them up to succeed. "Our Legacy imparts wisdom to the next generation." How can DT be a start if we have no legacy as a character? Just walk in, be told that we did some badass stuff and changed the universe and now you get to babysit a Princess?

The story of 8.0 would likely need an entirely new cast and setting as well as a bunch of separate story beats for players that start in 8.0 verses 2.0. But even 1.0 players didn't get a lot of stuff referencing their status as a legacy character. Just a few scenes, a special mount, and an honestly really cool tattoo.

I’ve tried all the jobs a bit, and I have to say they feel more fun than playing the jobs in PvE.
In fact, they even have better animations, animation timing, and more identity overall.
On top of that, you can add other abilities that affect the enemy, etc. etc… I just don’t get why they haven’t implemented this in PvE yet—and it’s not an excuse to say it’s because PvE is “simpler,” because it really isn’t.

I mean On PVP

Reading comprehension is dead.

His comment was clearly referring to the very small subset of people who think the GCD is going to speed up, etc. When he states that the base is going to remain the same, its obvious that he's referring to GCDs, OGCDs, the leveling process, skills, abilities, job gauges, etc. The base of the jobs is those underlying systems. Its a northingburger of a statement to say "no we're not fundamentally changing the very basis of the gameplay but plan to build off of what's already there." Similar wording was used before job gauges were introduced, so expect an addition to the underlying job's system akin to that.

He was attempting to lower expectations while also trying to not speak about things ahead of their reveal. Which is foolish. If they are intending to change things or "expand" things like this interview says, then they need to start talking about it sooner, rather than later.

If we only get details 2-3mo before during the media tour, that'll be far too late.

Let's be honest here, it's more than likely that no big changes is gonna happen and they're gonna keep going into the "dumbing down" direction.

The kind of rework that I'm expecting in 8.0 is shit like removing Monk's forms and slapping one or two basic 1-2-3 combo as well as removing 3/4 of their postionnals. And removing Bard's DoT and slapping their songs into a trait.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

Let's be honest here, it's more than likely that no big changes is gonna happen and they're gonna keep going into the "dumbing down" direction.

The kind of rework that I'm expecting in 8.0 is shit like removing Monk's forms and slapping one or two basic 1-2-3 combo as well as removing 3/4 of their postionnals. And removing Bard's DoT and slapping their songs into a trait.

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Last time I checked Monk only has 2 positionals left, the two combo finishers, so they're already ahead of your expectations.

Honestly if they just take the inspiration and effort given to PVP job design into PVE job design then they will hit the mark. Fight design is good but I think the jobs also need to be good.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Last time I checked Monk only has 2 positionals left, the two combo finishers, so they're already ahead of your expectations.

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Damn, I should really touch Monk again at some point lol. But indeed. Less work for their rework then.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

Let's be honest here, it's more than likely that no big changes is gonna happen and they're gonna keep going into the "dumbing down" direction.

The kind of rework that I'm expecting in 8.0 is shit like removing Monk's forms and slapping one or two basic 1-2-3 combo as well as removing 3/4 of their postionnals. And removing Bard's DoT and slapping their songs into a trait.

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I won't be surprised if they just completely remove positionals. Every melee only has a few left(I think DRG has the most with 3?), the additional effects were made unconditional, and the potency bonuses keep getting smaller and smaller.

While it's still anyone's guess whether they'll manage to build something meaningful on top of the current rotations, this interview is definitely more than a nothingburger. What's clear is that there won't be any major changes to the jobs we already have up to level 100.

The jobs we have now are the product of nearly a decade of changes. Will they keep all those changes as the foundation, and somehow introduce something new that completely reshapes the job experience within just one expansion? I suppose we'll find out...

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Originally Posted by brinn12

While it's still anyone's guess whether they'll manage to build something meaningful on top of the current rotations, this interview is definitely more than a nothingburger. What's clear is that there won't be any major changes to the jobs we already have up to level 100.

The jobs we have now are the product of nearly a decade of changes. Will they keep all those changes as the foundation, and somehow introduce something new that completely reshapes the job experience within just one expansion? I suppose we'll find out...

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That's why I feel that "stuff staying the same" is related to the 2min meta, rather than details about job rotations. And on that matter, I think the only possible way for a job to grow with actual new things is if they focus on the 2min meta "downtime".

For example. Dancer is a job known to be extremely busy during the burst window, but boring outside of it... Imagine if Technical Finish would do something like 'unlock' a new Dance after the buff ends, or something that replaced your combos with something else for 30-60 seconds. It's a way to spice up the gameplay while not messing with the burst window setup.

That, on top of the promised job uniqueness brought back, which would be interesting to see how many, if any, reverting they'll do to achieve this. For example, Astrologian having their sects back, since the healer sub-division didn't really live up to what they intended.