Why do casual players seem entitled to cosmetic items added in game?

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Originally Posted by BrokenFantasy

Character customization options should not be tied to difficult content. It's really that simple.

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You're entitled to your opinion but I don't agree with you.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

The people who do the thing deserve the reward for the thing. All things should offer rewards. It's really that simple.

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This is just a sign of worse things to come. They're testing the waters.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

You're entitled to your opinion but I don't agree with you.

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Okay but you literally have no valid reasons for your opinion.

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Originally Posted by BrokenFantasy

Okay but you literally have no valid reasons for your opinion.

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All content should have rewards. Cosmetics are a great way to add rewards to content without making the activity mandatory for character progression.

It's actually you who has no reasoning to back their argument. It's literally just a case of "I want the rewards but I don't want to do the content therefore the reward should not be locked behind the content", i.e. entitlement.

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Originally Posted by BrokenFantasy

Character customization options should not be tied to difficult content. It's really that simple.

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"We aren't entitled, we just want this kind of reward with a low barrier that everyone could achieve while essentially afk (if it was mailed, we wouldn't mind), even though it's also available on the MB, but we can't be bothered with that either, we are paying customers after all". Yeah, it's entitlement.
I feel like the problem some people here have, is that the word "entitlement" is used across the pond to shut down every legitimate demand for bettering society. Or when people even are legitimate entitled to certain things by law / contract. However, this is an MMORPG, and a significant appeal of that genre has always been that activities come with rewards, especially customization options. On the one hand, to have goals for players, on the other hand, to brag. I mean, that is why YOU want to have the rewards as well, right? To show them off. To present your character. You don't even understand how required such a reward structure is for a game to exist in the first place. There are other games that throw gear and customization and all that around for free, and they are all in the same corner of "dead MMOs", barely coasting by on life support with no real investment.

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Originally Posted by cashmoney109

There really is something comical about how pointlessly evil putting the cutesy cottagecore haircut in some of the least accessible content in the game is. Rewards are already stacked without it so they coulda put this anywhere in the game but nope. Gotta make sure the raider elite get to fleece those dirty casuals for everything they got.

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Almost as comical as someone developing a persecution complex over a haircut in a videogame.

I can understand the argument from both sides. The game is old, and character customization is very limited and straight up ancient compared to its competitors, so putting a hairstyle, which changes your character appearance, behind some hardcore content, is understandably upsetting, but at the same time, SE is creating a bigger rift between players with petty bickering because they're unable to provide good and satisfactory rewards for any type of content, as usually the reward is a single (1) item of some uniqueness. Eventually more things will be shoved into the mogstation shop, outnumbering shop items by number of rewards in game.

Folks are all up in arms over a hairstyle that isn't even that attractive. I wouldn't spend two gil on it, let alone 20 million.

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Originally Posted by DynnDiablos

Folks are all up in arms over a hairstyle that isn't even that attractive. I wouldn't spend two gil on it, let alone 20 million.

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As an enjoyer of the hairstyle I like this opinion.

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Originally Posted by sindriiisgaming

well the devs have no excuse to be tone-deaf to the players at this point... they KNOW that they want more RP stuff like customization. and they KNOW raiders want to do more damage. so imo that should be the divide. raids should reward raiding stuff and there needs to be a steady flowing stream of "casual stuff" to keep the simpler player subbed. i miss the days when i was the weird one for raiding. now im the weird one for glamming

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"RP stuff like customization"

I don't RP and I do enjoy a decent looking avatar.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You are basically asking “why are games as a universal concept the way they are”

Games use rewards to drive you towards a particular thing. Like would you be fine if you completed a long game spanning gathering quest in an open world RPG and your reward was a pat on the back. No you expect a reward

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This straight up reminds me of the 6 year levequest achievements. Absolutely no reward at the end of it all except all of the gil and time you invested into it. (Though I will admit I am happy there is no reward at the end of a 6 year achievement grind. Gives me no incentive to do them.)

Casual with a painfully busy life here.

Kinda regretting not leveling up to 100 and doing current Extreme or Savage fights so I could at least attempt the raid before the hype goes away.

I don't think I'll ever have enough gil in time to purchase that hairstyle, judging from the short window of time I have until prices potentially begin to skyrocket on the board.

C'est la vie, I guess - it's such a cute hairstyle, too.

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Originally Posted by BrokenFantasy

Character customization options should not be tied to difficult content. It's really that simple.

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Showing off your achievement to others through equipment is one of the oldest ways that exists in games.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Why do those who enjoy hardcore content need incentives? I thought the point was to "beat the game." If success beating or enjoying the fight isn't reward enough in itself and these folks want to flex, give them a title. We could have a contest to come up with some suitable ones.

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Because incentives aren't only for the people that already want to do it for flex status, they're also for people that DON'T want to.

It's difficult to understand the reasonings. People complained that Delubrum had a hairstyle as a rare drop so they added an token exchange to make it easier available. And now they lock a hairstyle behind the 24 man savage.

And in two years they will gift it away with the moogle tomestones.


With all the mounts, pets and now hairstyle they added to unreal trials, criterion and chaotic raid it becomes an expensive affair for a casual player to collect such things. They all sell for a couple of millions each. It puts hardcore players in a position where they profit a bit too much of casual players and it feels even more like a class divide. The "upper class" gets all the content, nice rewards and for playing their preferred content they also get tons of money. But they don't even need it because they don't have to pay 20 million for a hairstyle. The prices are already rising again.

The thing is there are no gear rewards, no progression system for casual players. The only reason they stick around is because they like to collect cosmetic items, minions, mounts, whatever. But that becomes more and more impossible. So why should they continue playing the game when they can't continue building their collection?

Savage now has 15-25% clear rates of all active players? I wonder why that is... This game is bleeding casual players already.

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Originally Posted by lucatracy

Because incentives aren't only for the people that already want to do it for flex status, they're also for people that DON'T want to.

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And you're okay with this? What you're describing is a job.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

And you're okay with this? What you're describing is a job.

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It's more like bait to try and get people to try something new.

The idea that it’s odd to want an incentive and not just play entirely for the intrinsic fun of something is such an odd concept to me because it seems to ignore the fact that much of the enjoyment of achieving something comes from being presented a reward that you really want from said content. Like a game like RuneScape is entirely built in this concept, you don’t do firemaking because it’s intrinsically fun, you do it because you want something out of it that you do get enjoyment out of

A reward isn’t just something to going you into doing content you don’t want to do it is part of its own enjoyment

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The idea that it’s odd to want an incentive and not just play entirely for the intrinsic fun of something is such an odd concept to me because it seems to ignore the fact that much of the enjoyment of achieving something comes from being presented a reward that you really want from said content. Like a game like RuneScape is entirely built in this concept, you don’t do firemaking because it’s intrinsically fun, you do it because you want something out of it that you do get enjoyment out of

A reward isn’t just something to going you into doing content you don’t want to do it is part of its own enjoyment

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Yeah as I said, I recognize I'm in the minority on this one. Maybe it reflects life experience. When I work I freelance, and only take on projects that are interesting. If something pays (rewards me) well but is not interesting, I simply don't do it.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Yeah as I said, I recognize I'm in the minority on this one. Maybe it reflects life experience. When I work I freelance, and only take on projects that are interesting. If something pays (rewards me) well but is not interesting, I simply don't do it.

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If the only way for you to get a haircut was to take a very specific job you don't like, would you try it then?

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Originally Posted by hydralus

If the only way for you to get a haircut was to take a very specific job you don't like, would you try it then?

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I swear I'm not making this up: I haven't had a haircut IRL since 2002.

But I understand what you're getting at, and the answer is still no. The only partial exception I can think of I mentioned elsewhere. I ran Copied Factory three times in a row to get the boots. But I didn't dislike Copied Factory, I just wouldn't have run it three times in the same session were it not for the boots.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I swear I'm not making this up: I haven't had a haircut IRL since 2002.

But I understand what you're getting at, and the answer is still no. The only partial exception I can think of I mentioned elsewhere. I ran Copied Factory three times in a row to get the boots. But I didn't dislike Copied Factory, I just wouldn't have run it three times in the same session were it not for the boots.

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I think a lot of folks are in the same boat. To add in my own experience, FATEs are not something I would call fun but also not exactly something I dislike. However, the only way to get the Sharlayan night theme was to do 480 of them. Can't even buy it. The draw of being able to chill in my apartment with that music was enough to get me to grind something I don't particularly care for. I suppose there's something to be said for a sense of accomplishment after hours of tedium. Except instead of developing an actual skill it's just pissing away the only life we have on virtual numbers.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Why do those who enjoy hardcore content need incentives? I thought the point was to "beat the game." If success beating or enjoying the fight isn't reward enough in itself and these folks want to flex, give them a title. We could have a contest to come up with some suitable ones.

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I'm going to do something once or twice because it's fun.
I'm going to keep doing that thing many, many more times because it's fun and rewarding.
If you can't understand this concept, then idk what to tell you. Maybe you don't understand the RPG part of MMORPG.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

I think a lot of folks are in the same boat. To add in my own experience, FATEs are not something I would call fun but also not exactly something I dislike. However, the only way to get the Sharlayan night theme was to do 480 of them. Can't even buy it. The draw of being able to chill in my apartment with that music was enough to get me to grind something I don't particularly care for. I suppose there's something to be said for a sense of accomplishment after hours of tedium. Except instead of developing an actual skill it's just pissing away the only life we have on virtual numbers.

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Right, and I'm sure one can create edge cases. Like if someone offered me $5/word for a 300-word article on current slot promotions in Las Vegas, I'd likely do it even though it'd be tedious because it would take me 90 minutes tops.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

I'm going to do something once or twice because it's fun.
I'm going to keep doing that thing many, many more times because it's fun and rewarding.
If you can't understand this concept, then idk what to tell you. Maybe you don't understand the RPG part of MMORPG.

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If it's fun, then I completely understand why you'd keep doing it. The discussion centered on being incentivized to do content one does not find fun.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

If it's fun, then I completely understand why you'd keep doing it. The discussion centered on being incentivized to do content one does not find fun.

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This response has nothing to do with the post I quoted.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

All content should have rewards. Cosmetics are a great way to add rewards to content without making the activity mandatory for character progression.

It's actually you who has no reasoning to back their argument. It's literally just a case of "I want the rewards but I don't want to do the content therefore the reward should not be locked behind the content", i.e. entitlement.

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You're the one with a selfish opinion who is defending this nonsense of locking a good rewards behind difficult content. Therefore you have to provide a very good reasoning to back that selfish opinion up, which you have not done. Literally nobody is saying that content shouldn't have rewards.

My main point is that it wouldn't kill the devs two provide multiple ways of earning the same reward. And before you point out that the market board is a thing, not everyone has the appetite for mindlessly grinding out millions of gil for high demand items.

At the end of the day this is just another cheap and lazy way for the days to keep people hooked on their subscriptions without actually implementing any meaningful content.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

This response has nothing to do with the post I quoted.

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Apologies.

So your point is, you'll do something once or twice because it's fun, but then you'll only do it many, many more times if you get a reward. Okay. I don't pay your sub etc. Do what you like (?)

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Originally Posted by BrokenFantasy

And before you point out that the market board is a thing, not everyone has the appetite for mindlessly grinding out millions of gil for high demand items.

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It's not even difficult to make money - Hell, just doing roulettes to cap out the 450 tomestones/week brings a bit of cash, even more when you play roles that are in Need.
Cash out the other tomes for materials/soil and you got a few hundred-thousands every few days alone on that.

And that's before sending out retainers and gathering/processing mats with DoL/H jobs.

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Originally Posted by Collin_Sky

So chaotic came out, and I've seen multiple posters on the forums making statements along the line of

"The hairstyle should not have been added in chaotic when SE knows lots of casual players will want it"

Why do some people feel entitled to cosmetic items such as this? I genuinely don't get it. It's obviously there either: as a reward to players doing difficult content, or as a means to encourage people to step out of their comfort zone.
Even so, it's purchasable on the market board, so why is it such a problem?

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To me I'd challenge that if you're a true casual, you're unlikely to even find this forum to post stuff like that to begin with.

But given that this place is the only means players get an official place where to complain it's just people who are anxious about having to do things that require team work or even a crumb of social compliance to get through a piece of content. More than "casual players", I'd just call them the "Anti-MMO" players that CBU3 fostered by their "Final Fantasy first, MMO second" philosophy.

They should add more stuff like this for savage, and for it to be sold on the Marketplace, it kind of fosters some economy and it plays into the fantasy of the adventurer bringing back actual treasure. Don't wanna do the content? Do some gil and pay for the treasure the adventurers bring back. It sounds perfect to me.

SE, take this as a lesson. Next time, put the hair in the cash shop for $5 and you'll barely hear a complaint.

50mil gil for hair is ridiculous. I personally don't want the hair, but I can see why someone would be upset if their options are run this chaotic that they either can't run or have no interest in, or fork up enough money to buy a mansion and furnish it. (No, 50/25 mil gil is not the sort of cash a casual can accrue easily, not even by doing dailies lol)

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Originally Posted by Aviatorhead

50mil gil for hair is ridiculous. I personally don't want the hair, but I can see why someone would be upset if their options are run this chaotic that they either can't run or have no interest in, or fork up enough money to buy a mansion and furnish it. (No, 50/25 mil gil is not the sort of cash a casual can accrue easily, not even by doing dailies lol)

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Considering casual content generates the most money in this game saying that money Can’t be accrued easily by a casual is wrong, high end content is by and large a drain on people’s finances

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

The people who do the thing deserve the reward for the thing. All things should offer rewards. It's really that simple.

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The people who write the thing get to dictate what is a reward for the thing or to change that reward on a whim. It's that simple. Choice isn't yours.

Well what do you mean by casual content here? Because most players I know regardless of their playstyle, aren't walking around with 50mil to spare, and it would probably take a while to get that sort of money if they aren't spamming maps every day. Dailies won't get you that sort of cash any time soon.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

SE, take this as a lesson. Next time, put the hair in the cash shop for $5 and you'll barely hear a complaint.

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Sort of amazing they needed a lesson since this firestorm was completely predictable. It's also lucky more players don't read these boards. The conversations here are hardly likely to make more people try high-end raiding.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Considering casual content generates the most money in this game saying that money Can’t be accrued easily by a casual is wrong, high end content is by and large a drain on people’s finances

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Is that actually true? I genuinely don't know. There were raiders on Reddit reporting making 80 million+ within the first couple of days of CAR, but maybe that's not usually the case?

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Originally Posted by AllenThyl

"We aren't entitled, we just want this kind of reward with a low barrier that everyone could achieve while essentially afk (if it was mailed, we wouldn't mind), even though it's also available on the MB, but we can't be bothered with that either, we are paying customers after all". Yeah, it's entitlement.
I feel like the problem some people here have, is that the word "entitlement" is used across the pond to shut down every legitimate demand for bettering society. Or when people even are legitimate entitled to certain things by law / contract. However, this is an MMORPG, and a significant appeal of that genre has always been that activities come with rewards, especially customization options. On the one hand, to have goals for players, on the other hand, to brag. I mean, that is why YOU want to have the rewards as well, right? To show them off. To present your character. You don't even understand how required such a reward structure is for a game to exist in the first place. There are other games that throw gear and customization and all that around for free, and they are all in the same corner of "dead MMOs", barely coasting by on life support with no real investment.

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Lazy strawman of what I said. Not sure if bait or something else lol

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Originally Posted by Arrius

It's not even difficult to make money - Hell, just doing roulettes to cap out the 450 tomestones/week brings a bit of cash, even more when you play roles that are in Need.
Cash out the other tomes for materials/soil and you got a few hundred-thousands every few days alone on that.

And that's before sending out retainers and gathering/processing mats with DoL/H jobs.

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Sounds boring as hell (just like roughly 50% of the so-called gameplay in this game).

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Considering casual content generates the most money in this game saying that money Can’t be accrued easily by a casual is wrong, high end content is by and large a drain on people’s finances

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I don't understand this notion where raiders spend a lot of gil on food and pot is coming from...I used to be on Jenova like you and I raided all the time and never spent that much gil on anything for raiding. Shoot back in ShB I used to make food and pots for sale and I stopped bc the prices were set so low that it wasn't even worth the sale of them. Not to mention that those who are in statics tend not to buy anything bc the odds are they have at least one person in the static that can craft stuff for the team. Doing savage and ultmates does not drain that much gil for you lol Unless you potting every single pull and if you are that so dumb XD You only pot when you going for the clear.