You pull you tank question.

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Originally Posted by Celine_Aurora

It could not.
If the tanik is hitting buttons and the party wipes: maybe.
If a dps pulls and the tank just refuses to hit the pulled mobs with AoE and refuses to estabilish aggro: it's lethargic play.
Also the devs said in the role description thata tank's job is to get hit and keep enmity, not to let people die for displeasing them.
Although your last comment reeks of main character syndrome so I already know i'm wasting my time replying.

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Nope sorry buddy but the in game established roles as taught to new players in The Hall of novices, this teaches tank roles to pull, it doesn't teach any other role this. There for establishing in game, the tanks job is to pull. Now as I said before, speak to each other, maybe people will speed up for you.

Back to the stupid ToS argument.
If as a DPS you pull a second pack mid fight and the tank doesn't have high enough mit because of CD and they die, that's 100% you not playing your role and causing a wipe. By your own logic you could then be reported.
The entire situation is almost always going to have too much nuance to ever truly apply the ToS, so as stated before the ToS argument is dumb.

My final comment is literally saying we're a group and the dps in not the leader you're a memeber of the group and in most content the least important member of said group so maybe wind you neck in.
E.G
If you do not have a tank you physically cannot complete the dungeon.
If you do not have a healer and your tank is anything other than a Warrior, you cannot do the dungeon.

If you lose 1 of 2 dps, it's just gonna be a little slower, but you can easily still complete the dungeon. Obviously not talking raids here.

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

Don't get too hung up on your idea of politeness.

What's polite in your circles is impolite in others. That's the difference here. There's no 'middle' to meet in, each position is mutually exclusive.

Again, who cares? One of you gets kicked, requeue, that's the end of the story. Have a laugh about some ego-tripping warrior you found.

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Making group content passive aggressive PvP is what it is.
Again, who decided the Tank shouldn't pull?
And why do Tank tutorials say otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Aurelius2625

Also just to add my 2 cents since I've tanked since late HW: you are ego tripping if you have "you pull you tank". Get over yourselves. Stop being cry babies. I've tanked literally every Ultimate except for TOP from start to finish...

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The true ultimates are the showers along the way.
But thank you for letting us smell that you truly deserved that legend title.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

If you do not have a tank you physically cannot complete the dungeon.
If you do not have a healer and your tank is anything other than a Warrior, you cannot do the dungeon.

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Hahaha are we playing the same game? You're talking about Final Fantasy the Fourteenth, right?

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

Don't get too hung up on your idea of politeness.

What's polite in your circles is impolite in others. That's the difference here. There's no 'middle' to meet in, each position is mutually exclusive.

Again, who cares? One of you gets kicked, requeue, that's the end of the story. Have a laugh about some ego-tripping warrior you found.

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No, no position is ‘mutually exclusive’. That's the excuse used by people who don't want to compromise. The equation here is excessively simple: you queue in the PU, so you accept that there are different rhythms that will be confronted because the PU is (oh, surprise!) made up of randoms. So you have to be adaptable.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

No, no position is ‘mutually exclusive’. That's the excuse used by people who don't want to compromise. The equation here is excessively simple: you queue in the PU, so you accept that there are different rhythms that will be confronted because the PU is (oh, surprise!) made up of randoms. So you have to be adaptable.

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Right, but you see.

You run into me and my friend (both playing on DPS) want to go fast. So you have to be adaptable to us, right?

It's mutually exclusive. Either one side is happy or the other.

But again, just kick the troublemaking tank, move on without them, or whatever. That's the nature of living with people. Can't force them to bend to your will, and content where this kind of thing happens is so easy you can do it without them.

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

Right, but you see.

You run into me and my friend (both playing on DPS) want to go fast. So you have to be adaptable to us, right?

It's mutually exclusive. Either one side is happy or the other.

But again, just kick the troublemaking tank, move on without them, or whatever. That's the nature of living with people. Can't force them to bend to your will, and content where this kind of thing happens is so easy you can do it without them.

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Even if it's just different between EU and US, this seems like a WoW-level toxicity.

That's why I'm playing Viper, maximum toxicity ;)

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Originally Posted by Malthir

Nope sorry buddy but the in game established roles as taught to new players in The Hall of novices, this teaches tank roles to pull, it doesn't teach any other role this. There for establishing in game, the tanks job is to pull. Now as I said before, speak to each other, maybe people will speed up for you.

Back to the stupid ToS argument.
If as a DPS you pull a second pack mid fight and the tank doesn't have high enough mit because of CD and they die, that's 100% you not playing your role and causing a wipe. By your own logic you could then be reported.
The entire situation is almost always going to have too much nuance to ever truly apply the ToS, so as stated before the ToS argument is dumb.

My final comment is literally saying we're a group and the dps in not the leader you're a memeber of the group and in most content the least important member of said group so maybe wind you neck in.
E.G
If you do not have a tank you physically cannot complete the dungeon.
If you do not have a healer and your tank is anything other than a Warrior, you cannot do the dungeon.

If you lose 1 of 2 dps, it's just gonna be a little slower, but you can easily still complete the dungeon. Obviously not talking raids here.

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LMAO hall of novice. That thing was made when dinosaurs were still around. Also, it teaches tanks to grab aggro off other party members, not pulling. Y'know, the thing you're arguing that you should not have to do?
It also teaches DPS to grab aggro off healer, and teaches tanks to use single target after hitting AoE once to grab aggro. You should spend less time coming up with nonsensical excuses and more time learning how to play properly.

Also, you don't need a tank to complete most dungeons. Neither do you need a warrior to do it without a healer. But course, you wouldn't know this.

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Originally Posted by koko-on-da-forumz

Right, but you see.

You run into me and my friend (both playing on DPS) want to go fast. So you have to be adaptable to us, right?

It's mutually exclusive. Either one side is happy or the other.

But again, just kick the troublemaking tank, move on without them, or whatever. That's the nature of living with people. Can't force them to bend to your will, and content where this kind of thing happens is so easy you can do it without them.

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If the healer also wants to accelerate, then yes. It comes down to what I was saying: adapt. The problem is that in your case and in view of your messages (which seem to be baits, but I'll bite this time), this adaptation only goes one way: it's only the others who have to adapt to you, and that's a particularly appalling mentality.

In short, as always, I'm sticking to my guns on this issue: communicate with others (it's crazy to have to reiterate this on an mmorpg), be flexible about the way you play (I promise you, staying an extra 10 minutes in a dungeon to give the new tank a bit of time to adapt isn't going to kill you). And if you're unable to adapt, the simplest solution is to do it with friends who are on the same wavelength in terms of pace.

I don't think hall of the novice ever taught me to take enmity off dps, it did teach to use ranged tools to grab enemies from healer before they get hit due to them healing. It also teach to use ranged tools to pull groups so you don't get overwhelmed and to use aoe when there is 3 or more targets and how to position yourself for it... But double checking seems it did try to teach to use aoe then the combo on multiple enemies, i just had other guides in my head so kept using aoe ^^"
And checking the dps exercises i don't see any of them being about taking enmity off the healer. But more to support the group as a whole by focusing down enemies that target the weakest member. both have the same mission but completely different priority in the novice exercise.

For those saying it's not against TOS.
"・Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well."

If theres a discussion after the DPS pulls and the DPS keeps doing it, then at that point the DPS can be reported for nuisance behavior or obstructing gameplay but the initial act of YPYT is indeed 100% against TOS.

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Originally Posted by Moxxi

I don't think hall of the novice ever taught me to take enmity off dps, it did teach to use ranged tools to grab enemies from healer before they get hit due to them healing. It also teach to use ranged tools to pull groups so you don't get overwhelmed and to use aoe when there is 3 or more targets and how to position yourself for it... But double checking seems it did try to teach to use aoe then the combo on multiple enemies, i just had other guides in my head so kept using aoe ^^"
And checking the dps exercises i don't see any of them being about taking enmity off the healer. But more to support the group as a whole by focusing down enemies that target the weakest member. both have the same mission but completely different priority in the novice exercise.

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It teaches you to grab aggro of your teammates who just happen to be a healer in the tutorial.
For the DPS check the reinforcement tutorial where extra enemies would spawn and go for the healer while the tank is too busy eating dirt.

Either way it's an outdated and terrible tutorial and anyone who uses it as the basis for their arguments should be disregarded in a similar fashion

So what about the crap guides to FF: Tanking then?

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

It teaches you to grab aggro of your teammates who just happen to be a healer in the tutorial.
For the DPS check the reinforcement tutorial where extra enemies would spawn and go for the healer while the tank is too busy eating dirt.

Either way it's an outdated and terrible tutorial and anyone who uses it as the basis for their arguments should be disregarded in a similar fashion

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Now you really just want to normalize it by forcing it.

I admit i don't think i ever did the dps hall before and after returning to the game.. But this is the quote for that one for dps:
"This exercise will teach you how to deal with enemy reinforcements. As the battle progresses, new foes will appear on the field. These sudden arrivals will target your weakest comrade, so you must be quick to eliminate them! Work with your allies to defeat the enemy, and we can move on to the next training exercise. "

While tank have all this "For this exercise, ye'll learn to deal with reinforcements. Sometimes there're latecomers to the battle, so ye've got to stay alert. If ye notice a new foe arrive, don't give in to panic! Keep calm, an' pick the enemy up with your usual tools! Are they too far away for a combination? Then reel ‘em in with a [ranged attack]! Once ye've got everyone nice an' close, you can switch to [AoE attack] to keep that enmity flowin'! Defeat every enemy on the field, an' I'll consider yer lesson learned."

Friendly AI have kind of always been shitty so i would likely excuse that, but the hall do teach a tiny bit of fundamentals to get you going despite being rather outdated, i may just be less casual in some sense that i always look up guides to make sure i do something right afterwards.. like mistakes to avoid and such. Something it seems many early level don't do... Seen so much nonsense from all sides of the trinity while getting some dps jobs to 50-60.
Like many have said.. lots of reasons why a tank may not do the typical wall to wall pull, and in my own case if dps suddenly pulled lets say entire first room in aurum vale i would panic and cause a wipe, bardam's vale i had poor experience with as a healer due to tank rushing before i could keep up (At the time did not know wall to wall were a thing) so when i get back there again i would be extremely careful myself..

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Originally Posted by TBerry

So what about the crap guides to FF: Tanking then?


Now you really just want to normalize it by forcing it.

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Wall to wall pulls have been the norm since ARR. Walls between pulls were literally enforced on dungeon design by SE because people was often blasting the entirety of the mobs between bosses without an issue. It's even older than healers being required to DPS during downtime (another concept some people still struggle getting through their dense skulls too).

Tanks trying to enforce single pulls are the ones forcing their gameplay as norm and YPYT want to normalize this attitude by straight up griefing (you need to go out of your way to not take the other mobs by either turning off tank stance or refusing to AoE).

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Wall to wall pulls have been the norm since ARR. Walls between pulls were literally enforced on dungeon design by SE because people was often blasting the entirety of the mobs between bosses without an issue. It's even older than healers being required to DPS during downtime (another concept some people still struggle getting through their dense skulls too).

Tanks trying to enforce single pulls are the ones forcing their gameplay as norm and YPYT want to normalize this attitude by straight up griefing (you need to go out of your way to not take the other mobs by either turning off tank stance or refusing to AoE).

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It's about DPS pulling for tanks, not W2W.
Stop trying to shift goal posts.

As someone who loves to tank dungeons, "You pull, you tank" is just incredibly silly. Especially if you're gonna throw your toys out of the pram and let the whole party die as a result. Like you are literally wasting your OWN time to be petty. Just regain aggro and get over it.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

It's about DPS pulling for tanks, not W2W.
Stop trying to shift goal posts.

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The VAST majority of cases where the DPS are pulling ahead of tank and the tank is throwing a tantrum is precisely because the DPS are expecting the W2W and the tank is going down the route of "nuh-huh". And even where there are DPS overtaking the tank when they're doing W2W, the problem only needs the tank to keep doing their normal rotation you're already meant to do as tank (AoE) during pulls meaning the only thing that can get hurt by that is the tank's ego. The healer doesn't even have to go massively out of the way to heal them because they have more than enough tools to cleave some healing to that DPS with oGCDs. The only way to do YPYT is either by running from the mobs, refusing to AoE or turning tank stance offs, all of them running counter against the normal tank gameplay loop. And the amount of DPS who pull and run away from the tank is a very small minority.

Stop trying to pretend there is any issue with DPS pulling when there is none in either scenerio, except those that people who pull YPYT and their enablers create out of thin air. There is not a single justification for YPYT in dungeons. It's an action derived purely from spite and a hurt ego with clear ill intent because, again, you DO have to go out of your way to make them tank the mobs. And no amount of ToS discussion will ever change that.

It doesn't happen all the time but I have noticed a trend of people pulling for me. I'm sprinting and doing everything. I don't see the point of it, it just makes it harder for me to pick up mobs. How much faster am I supposed to go here? It's stupid. Stop doing it.

LMAO at all this ridiculous arguments. YPYT is stupid and is a ToS violation end of discussion. It's literally in the phrase, "you tank". You're telling someone to do your job for you, which you're refusing to do.
That's like a healer refusing to heal a DPS because they dare using second wind or mit. DPS pulling is literally making the tank's job easier. Stop ego-tripping and start learning to play the game properly.

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

LMAO at all this ridiculous arguments. YPYT is stupid and is a ToS violation end of discussion. It's literally in the phrase, "you tank". You're telling someone to do your job for you, which you're refusing to do.
That's like a healer refusing to heal a DPS because they dare using second wind or mit. DPS pulling is literally making the tank's job easier. Stop ego-tripping and start learning to play the game properly.

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Yeah, the mental gymnastics in this thread have been...something to witness, that's for sure.

Repeatedly pulling without any word and no regards is nuisance behaviour.
You are no better, stop making excuses.

Tanks are not your personal tools.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Repeatedly pulling without any word and no regards is nuisance behaviour.
You are no better, stop making excuses.

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No no no, I'm 100% better than all of YPYT egomaniacs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

No no no, I'm 100% better than all of YPYT egomaniacs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Then why can't you handle the mobs?
All Roles are DPS supposedly.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Then why can't you handle the mobs?
All Roles are DPS supposedly.

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What do you mean I can't handle the mobs? When I tank I pull and tank everything including those DPS and healers pull for me in the off chance that they somehow manage to run ahead.
I don't whine like a baby when others help me do my job easier ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Repeatedly pulling without any word and no regards is nuisance behaviour.
You are no better, stop making excuses.

Tanks are not your personal tools.

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Absolutely not. The moment you land your AoE, you gain the aggro back in no time and unless the DPS go out of their way to not place the mobs in the range of your AoE. Tanks are supposed to be competent enough to do as much and that's what every DPS that pulls aheads expect of them: to be competent.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Then why can't you handle the mobs?
All Roles are DPS supposedly.

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DPS and healers can handle them on the short span it takes you or any tank to do the AoE combo and then some. If you're that petty to not do that, it's on you. Specially because you should be doing AoE in those scenarios already.

If DPS pull despite the best efforts of the tank to go fast, and stay up front, then they're just being a prick. And you enable these people.

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Absolutely not. The moment you land your AoE, you gain the aggro back in no time and unless the DPS go out of their way to not place the mobs in the range of your AoE. Tanks are supposed to be competent enough to do as much and that's what every DPS that pulls aheads expect of them: to be competent.



DPS and healers can handle them on the short span it takes you or any tank to do the AoE combo and then some. If you're that petty to not do that, it's on you. Specially because you should be doing AoE in those scenarios already.

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I love when people talk as if just getting aggro back is the solution. Moving goalposts about what the problem is and either it shows an ignorance of the tank learning curve or a blatant ignoring of it.

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

What do you mean I can't handle the mobs? When I tank I pull and tank everything including those DPS and healers pull for me in the off chance that they somehow manage to run ahead.

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The problem here is some of them are here trying to justify and normalize this "off-chance".
I'm not saying YPYT is justifiable, but I think some of you are disingenuous and treat other party members like shit just to be sweaty.
You want a fast run? Don't piss other members off.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

I love when people talk as if just getting aggro back is the solution. Moving goalposts about what the problem is and either it shows an ignorance of the tank learning curve or a blatant ignoring of it.

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Learning curve? What learning curve? If you can't cycle your mit properly while hitting AoE buttons then it's a you problem. Looks like the ignorance is from the people who don't know how to tank properly.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

The problem here is some of them are here trying to justify and normalize this "off-chance".
I'm not saying YPYT is justifiable, but I think some of you are disingenuous and treat other party members like shit just to be sweaty.
You want a fast run? Don't piss other members off.

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There's nothing to normalize. It's already normal. If someone running ahead of you pisses you off then you have an ego problem.

I always hated the you pull you tank thing. Honestly most dps have only 20 seconds to chain abilities or it goes away. Most of the time if dps pull its to keep that going so they dont lose an ability. i will just pop bloodbath and bring whatever it is next to the tank so when they aoe they catch it. The whole you pull you tank is so bleh. Just go in beat content fast and have fun.

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

There's nothing to normalize. It's already normal. If someone running ahead of you pisses you off then you have an ego problem.

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Crying about reportable behaviour while justifying reportable behaviour?

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Crying about reportable behaviour while justifying reportable behaviour?

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Being physically in front of the tank isn't reportable... especially if they cluster with whatever is hitting them for aoe.
It's mostly irrelevant, you just aoe as normal and things are fine- be it as a tank or dps, just stack together and spam aoe. Easy.
Who the hell even brought this example up.
XIV has no aggro management anyway. Not anymore.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Crying about reportable behaviour while justifying reportable behaviour?

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Reporting someone for running ahead of you? LMAO, sure, go ahead, whatever make you feel better

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Originally Posted by noelregnard

Learning curve? What learning curve? If you can't cycle your mit properly while hitting AoE buttons then it's a you problem. Looks like the ignorance is from the people who don't know how to tank properly.

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Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

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What does this have to do with YPYT? And how does YPYT is gonna help you learn tanking? And no, this is FFXIV, tanking is piss easy, stop moving the goalpost.

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Originally Posted by VoidsentStatus

Ah yes, maybe I should throw you into a different game besides Final Fantasy, put you in the tank role, and immediately I'm going to force you to tank things in the hardest method possible day 1, with no knowledge of content structure, future mechanics in instance, no knowledge of healer kits and cooldowns, no open world practice for your rotation, and see how flawlessly you run. But if you die, it's a you problem right?

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Its a dungeon? wht structure? They are all the same hallway 2 seperate mobs, boss hallway s2 sets of mobs boss hallways 2 sets of mobs boss that has been the content FOREVER!!!

''You pull, you tank''

Narcissistic crybaby victim mentality.

It's a 12-15 minute dungeon. Someone that isn't the tank pulls? Just f*cking AoE and keep going.

Are you a newer tank? Are you already killing some mobs? Then you are pressing the same buttons you'll press if 2 more mobs show up.

Are you a WAR? Manmode that shit and show them that you will not be taken lightly.

Are you a GNB? Do it for freedom and liberty.

Are you a PLD? You are a goddamn hero in white.

Are you a DRK? Call the goddamn GM cause that DPS is greifing you. I'm surprised you survived with 3 mobs on you.