Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

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Envoyé par Valence

No need for going into crazy solutions like that, they could already start experimenting by increasing tactical points scored for the 3rd team and decreasing them for the 1st team.

Could also try and increase tactical points earned when downing battle highs, proportionally to the rating (like +1 pt for BH1,... +5 points for BH5).

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I like this a lot! SE, hire this man/woman! ;)

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Envoyé par maximesan514

you guys are talking in here as if square enix give a *** about what NA players think.

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If not the official forums, where else would the community yell into the wind hoping to be heard?:p

The crazy part is, some of our suggestions are well thought out and sound. That being said, I don't think the English forum users (myself included) layout suggestions very well. And those that do, usually get torn apart by other forum users (at least in the pvp forums from what I have read) for a difference in thought.

This thread is laid out as a flame thread after all.

The misconception with PvP is that it is a fair game when it isn't and any attempt to make it a fair game results in the physical capabilities of the player becoming the most important thing. that works for e-sports but not for general pvp games. CC doesn't have a roulette because it is an E-Sport arena and Frontlines has one because it is supposed to be RNG thanks to a 3 way fight. Even in games like call of duty they really don't prioritize player skill unless it is a special type of match where all the extra weird buffs and perks don't apply. To make Frontlines fun it has to have way more random events involved like having magitech armor just appear and people can take out the pilots to get in one, then just stomp the hell out of another team out of the blue. Or even have an ultima weapon just land and laser the entire field.

At the end of the day no matter how much practice some people will put in, they will never be able to match up evenly with others in pvp just by reflexes alone. If someone can easily deal with the tab target system and always pin point who they want, for example, and are very quick on reflexes, they will always have a leg up on someone that needs to be methodical. So ultimately that is why frontlines kind of sucks and will always suck no matter what they do to it.

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Envoyé par Colt47

The misconception with PvP is that it is a fair game, when it is really isn't and any attempt to make it a fair game results in the physical capabilities of the player becoming the most important thing. that works for e-sports but not for general pvp games. CC doesn't have a roulette because it is an E-Sport arena and Frontlines has one because it is supposed to be RNG thanks to a 3 way fight. Even in games like call of duty they really don't prioritize player skill unless it is a special type of match where all the extra weird buffs and perks don't apply. To make Frontlines fun it has to have way more random events involved like having magitech armor just appear and people can take out the pilots to get in one, then just stomp the hell out of another team out of the blue. Or even have an ultima weapon just land and laser the entire field.

At the end of the day no matter how much practice some people will put in, they will never be able to match up evenly with others in pvp just by reflexes alone. If someone can easily deal with the tab target system and always pin point who they want, for example, and are very quick on reflexes, they will always have a leg up on someone that needs to be methodical. So ultimately that is why frontlines kind of sucks and will always suck no matter what they do to it.

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I'm going to be somewhat blunt, and say that this post doesn't hold weight. You could make exactly the same argument in PvE, and say that someone who has faster reflexes is going to react quicker to specific sets of mechanics, and someone else who is just a bit slower is going to be held back in their progression, and may not even be able to do certain content- so it isn't "fair" to them. So it isn't a "FL sucks ' argument, at some level as in any content there will be skill levels, it has nothing to do with being "fair" , just as part of what factors into the equation is the player's system (e.g. latency) and any limitations (visual, physical), use of assists - I could go on.

By the way although I wouldn't want magitech introduced into FL(let it remain in RW) I would like the PVP team to bring back the map back that we lost in RW and in FL, although I do really like your idea of events in PvP. Maybe they could use events to try out new ideas.

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Envoyé par IDontPetLalas

I'm going to be somewhat blunt, and say that this post doesn't hold weight. You could make exactly the same argument in PvE, and say that someone who has faster reflexes is going to react quicker to specific sets of mechanics, and someone else who is just a bit slower is going to be held back in their progression, and may not even be able to do certain content- so it isn't "fair" to them. So it isn't a "FL sucks ' argument, at some level as in any content there will be skill levels, it has nothing to do with being "fair" , just as part of what factors into the equation is the player's system (e.g. latency) and any limitations (visual, physical), use of assists - I could go on.

By the way although I wouldn't want magitech introduced into FL(let it remain in RW) I would like the PVP team to bring back the map back that we lost in RW and in FL, although I do really like your idea of events in PvP. Maybe they could use events to try out new ideas.

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You might not agree with it but unfortunately that is the reality. Whether it is by the time available to someone, resources available, or physical disability, not everyone who participates in pvp is going to be able to match others. That's why so many PVP games have things that are like random handicaps. The only way someone can say what I say has no weight is that they literally have no knowledge of the outside world.

In regards specifically to Frontlines as a duty finder based PvP option, it has to be able to be appealing to run for just about anyone, otherwise it can't be a duty finder option. So unless they are going to suddenly strip all pvp from Duty Finder and find some magical way to get 72 people to directly queue for Frontlines, they got to have the game throw a lot of wrenches so that directly queued parties are on parity with random people who just don't know what they are doing. At least up to the point that the majority of people who are not queuing as a group are always ending up 3rd or 2nd place. Because as it is right now without DF the entire thing is dead and lacks any way to really get on its feet, not to mention utterly fails as a casual form of PvP that can let those who are not deeply interested in true FFXIV PvP get a crack at the rewards.

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Envoyé par Colt47

You might not agree with it but unfortunately that is the reality. Whether it is by the time available to someone, resources available, or physical disability, not everyone who participates in pvp is going to be able to match others. That's why so many PVP games have things that are like random handicaps. The only way someone can say what I say has no weight is that they literally have no knowledge of the outside world.

In regards specifically to Frontlines as a duty finder based PvP option, it has to be able to be appealing to run for just about anyone, otherwise it can't be a duty finder option. So unless they are going to suddenly strip all pvp from Duty Finder and find some magical way to get 72 people to directly queue for Frontlines, they got to have the game throw a lot of wrenches so that directly queued parties are on parity with random people who just don't know what they are doing. At least up to the point that the majority of people who are not queuing as a group are always ending up 3rd or 2nd place. Because as it is right now without DF the entire thing is dead and lacks any way to really get on its feet, not to mention utterly fails as a casual form of PvP that can let those who are not deeply interested in true FFXIV PvP get a crack at the rewards.

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I believe you misunderstood my reply, I may have phrased it poorly. I'm saying that your concept of "fairness" doesn't exist, in either PvP nor in PvE, due to the factors I mentioned, and more. It's not "tab-target" issue, it's not a FL specific issue- I happen to agree with that- but even if it was an e-sports system I'm saying that we don't start off on an equal basis due to those factors, which may be outside of the game's control.

In addition, "In regards specifically to Frontlines as a duty finder based PvP option, it has to be able to be appealing to run for just about anyone, otherwise it can't be a duty finder option. "- no, it has to be available to enough people so that the queues are acceptable. That's quite different.

You may find, in your opinion the "the mode is dead" . I wouldn't say the mode is dead, and while I have played PvP games that had direct queues for 48 or for players, I doubt it would work here. We also don't have large pre-made parties mixed random parties and these hypothetical "wrenches" of yours are handled in some other games by adjusting the contribution for pre-made party members (i.e. splitting), so that might be applicable here.

Finally, I don't know, my personal view is that people should work for rewards. In some cases rewards my take quite a while to achieve, however if it's something I enjoy doing, the time isn't an issue. If however it isn't enjoyable- it seems interminable. That may well apply to some people who don't like PvP and who want rewards. So I could understand that some of them might find that it takes an extremely long time, however while they are there they are still obtaining rewards for their time.

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Envoyé par IDontPetLalas

I believe you misunderstood my reply, I may have phrased it poorly. I'm saying that your concept of "fairness" doesn't exist, in either PvP nor in PvE, due to the factors I mentioned, and more. It's not "tab-target" issue, it's not a FL specific issue- I happen to agree with that- but even if it was an e-sports system I'm saying that we don't start off on an equal basis due to those factors, which may be outside of the game's control.

In addition, "In regards specifically to Frontlines as a duty finder based PvP option, it has to be able to be appealing to run for just about anyone, otherwise it can't be a duty finder option. "- no, it has to be available to enough people so that the queues are acceptable. That's quite different.

You may find, in your opinion the "the mode is dead" . I wouldn't say the mode is dead, and while I have played PvP games that had direct queues for 48 or for players, I doubt it would work here. We also don't have large pre-made parties mixed random parties and these hypothetical "wrenches" of yours are handled in some other games by adjusting the contribution for pre-made party members (i.e. splitting), so that might be applicable here.

Finally, I don't know, my personal view is that people should work for rewards. In some cases rewards my take quite a while to achieve, however if it's something I enjoy doing, the time isn't an issue. If however it isn't enjoyable- it seems interminable. That may well apply to some people who don't like PvP and who want rewards. So I could understand that some of them might find that it takes an extremely long time, however while they are there they are still obtaining rewards for their time.

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Oh okay so we basically agree there is no fairness, since that is exactly what I stated and eluded to in the post that you originally replied to.

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Envoyé par Colt47

Oh okay so we basically agree there is no fairness, since that is exactly what I stated and eluded to in the post that you originally replied to.

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Really not following your arguments at all here. Frontlines includes RNG, both in terms of spawns and team assignment. Sometimes your team-mates won't be very good. Sometimes your team will play the best only to lose to a bad late spawn. All this is perfectly fair. The only area in which one might argue there is a lack of fairness is when that randomness is subverted by premades and Q-synching.

And while there's a general sentiment here that Frontlines has problems, in terms of participation it is incredibly successful. Sub-5min queues for at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. (Aether. I understand that isn't universal.)

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Envoyé par Mawlzy

Really not following your arguments at all here. Frontlines includes RNG, both in terms of spawns and team assignment. Sometimes your team-mates won't be very good. Sometimes your team will play the best only to lose to a bad late spawn. All this is perfectly fair. The only area in which one might argue there is a lack of fairness is when that randomness is subverted by premades and Q-synching.

And while there's a general sentiment here that Frontlines has problems, in terms of participation it is incredibly successful. Sub-5min queues for at least 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. (Aether. I understand that isn't universal.)

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What you aren't getting is that developers understand that fairness doesn't exist and that is why they put in things like the sandtrap and other obstacles in CC. It is the same thing as what they do in Call of Duty with the kill streaks. Technically, the latter does a much better job thanks to fast time to kill plus the kill streaks, but it evens the odds as the skill floor is much higher. It also tends to make the games less repetitious. When Time to Kill increases then it becomes more skill intensive since there is more time to do counter play.

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Envoyé par Colt47

What you aren't getting is that developers understand that fairness doesn't exist and that is why they put in things like the sandtrap and other obstacles in CC. It is the same thing as what they do in Call of Duty with the kill streaks. Technically, the latter does a much better job thanks to fast time to kill plus the kill streaks, but it evens the odds as the skill floor is much higher. It also tends to make the games less repetitious. When Time to Kill increases then it becomes more skill intensive since there is more time to do counter play.

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I suspect you're using a non-standard meaning of the word "fairness."

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Envoyé par Mawlzy

I suspect you're using a non-standard meaning of the word "fairness."

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It is in reference to the players own situation in life as not everyone who is playing is in the same space of either skill nor capability.

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Envoyé par Colt47

It is in reference to the players own situation in life as not everyone who is playing is in the same space of either skill nor capability.

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Right. I've never used "fairness" to mean skill differences or a skill cap arising from personal limitations. And neither has anyone else I know. I am partially sighted. I don't think that makes video games unfair.

Besides seal rock, the mode is pretty fair...

Issue being PVP is designed more for MOBA style hard cc chains, and less for individualistic skill. Being a good solo player who can go 10-0 isn't really as valuable and cutting it compared to having a a pre-made who can wipe half an alliance in a few seconds with ability combos.
It doesn't help that Square's reponse to Frontline balance has been to reduce damage. We went from +40% to +60% to +50% melee defense but now we have -10%/-15% damage on most jobs that can do damage (Thank goodness we still have Ninja.)

Apart from the issues this causes in frontline, i really have to wonder why it is this way. Crystal Conflict doesn't even allow people to queue as a team anyway for ranked or unranked. Why were they designing with optimal team-play in mind?...

Given that I have been known, on occasion, to be less than flattering about FL, I thought it only fair to mention a positive experience.

Yesterday evening on Aether, 90% of the matches were really enjoyable (and, no, not because I had a high win-rate; it split pretty much in thirds). The commanding for the most part was low key, but the majority of the players went where they were supposed to and knew how their jobs worked. The battles were high tempo and delightfully violent. I was 100% engaged and personally played better as a result.

Thanks to everyone who was involved. The mode can work, despite the imperfections we've hammered out in this thread. It simply requires players who enjoy and understand PvP and are giving it their all.

lowscore third because the obvious premaders and drks thats what i dislike most about the new shatter and maybe all maps

Today i tried to *lead* my team at seal rock. calling out point assaults, regroups, STOP CAHSING TO THEIR BASE, etc. The game was fairly even. No premade BS. at the first minute, after i called the team back due to red flanking us while we were in yellow terroitory, 15 of ours didnt care and got squished. they did listed for thre rest of the match. yellow still got gods RNG having 2 A points next to their base and all.
At the very end we were even, when yellow had slight advantage of 50 or so points. And ofc they got an S point on their high bridge spawn. I asked my teammates to *we have to get this or we loose*
We did get it. And then red assaulted. and instead of faling back and taking our 2 A points, as i called, all of my team stood their ground and died to a pincer attack on a tiny bridge. And i warned them of that possibility. "do not stack. spread out to not get aoed. just dont let them take the point. respect the map".
We lost. Yellow won. Last 2 minutes of the match i was blamed for spaming the chat and being *annoying* (not to mention called dude) by people who had 0-6 k/d ratio with 120k damage done. But when i tried to stand my ground 5 other people with respected results joined to blame me for being annoying and *leting yellow win*
End results showed that my team got even points with others for taking nodes. But got 250 vs 380-490 enemy kill count and -560 from deaths. Vs enemy 200-300. We had players with 0-11 and 75k damage done.
How can you work with this?
I HATE pvp in general and in this game in practicular. I usualy do 25 rank and stop. But my BF uses it to level up his spare jobs and i join him despite everything. I care about the result. i WANT victory. But majority of players (him included) just say: why bother. i am here for EXP. i dont care for result.
And let us not ignore job ballance. who in thier right mind plays sage? or red mage? Since when (10 pages earlier) machinist LB pierces guard? My machinist hits for 36k average if i catch a player unguarded. If not its miserable damage and healed immideatly. the *reassemble drill + LB combo works 1 out of 15 tries. Dragoon gets 36k AOE!!!!! followed DRK suck.
Killing someone 1 v 1 is impossible. samurai LB is bs. I use my spells on some BLM and then i see samurai debuff on me even though i ddint even know he was in the area. just because i used AOE. After that its a gamble. Did he have LB? If he did - there is nothing i can do. No guard will save me. No distance will save me. I will just get 1 shot from Narnia only because i used aoe spell.
All this current frontline crap has to be reballanced.

After nearly 2 years of avoiding frontlines I recently got tricked to playing it again. While I have managed to do the most damage in my group as well secure the most kills it's pretty obvious how badly I have fallen. 6-8. 6-8...and not even top damage on the team.
Majority of my kills came from abusing Chiten. I didn't even need the LB since I know that people don't respect the skill at all.
Majority of deaths came from the NIN LB, usually while I'm in guard.. I've only died once to the DRG-DRK combo.
Silently praying that execute percentage gets addressed.

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Envoyé par Lydia77

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That's why I don't type these days. Last expansion I was calling people out for wanting to surrender and accept second, and seconds later I was called out for taking frontlines too seriously. It's not worth stressing out about or getting angry over. If people are having fun with getting free experience points with no effort then leave them be. They'll fight tooth and nail to keep this the status quo. If you're going to focus on obtaining wins you're pretty much better off playing around the objective farmers instead of trying to change how others play. You will lose that fight every time. 1v1s are impossible, because pvp wasn't designed for 1v1 combat. They are design for teamplay. Who is going to let a fair 1v1 play out in any pvp mode? lol....

Also...I'm pretty sure that duos are also consider a premade....

I was attempting to go for the 300 win achievements on Shatter and Onsal but with so many games of people just not caring despite efforts it all just seems futile. I guess it's just up to RNG

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Envoyé par JuicyHeals

I was attempting to go for the 300 win achievements on Shatter and Onsal but with so many games of people just not caring despite efforts it all just seems futile. I guess it's just up to RNG

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I'm honestly glad I got the blue orb mount already because with the Shatter changes I don't think I would have been able to put up with it long enough.

Shatter has become ok, just avoid it when it's daily reset and all roulette players are doing it and are ice licking for 15min straight (in which case there's no pvp, making it absolute garbage).

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Envoyé par JuicyHeals

I was attempting to go for the 300 win achievements on Shatter and Onsal but with so many games of people just not caring despite efforts it all just seems futile. I guess it's just up to RNG

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Shattered 2.0 is not really RNG
There will be only 2 Large Ices spawn at same time
New one won’t spawn until either old one is destroyed

Two losing team should not kill their own ice and force winning team to PvP and taking risk of getting flank and wipe

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Envoyé par Divinemights

Shattered 2.0 is not really RNG
There will be only 2 Large Ices spawn at same time
New one won’t spawn until either old one is destroyed

Two losing team should not kill their own ice and force winning team to PvP and taking risk of getting flank and wipe

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Sorry, I meant rng as in if you get a team that gives enough of a crap to put forth effort into winning and listening.

I think Frontline could benefit from each map having its own unique set of rules rather than all maps being a re-skin of the same RNG Node Spawn/Cap concept. The current Shatter has a great mix of RNG node spawns and PvP, with enough RNG that it doesn't feel obnoxious (small ice spawns, 2 random big ice spawn locations), and enough PvP where you can feel your contribution matter to some degree (but still encourages 24-man deathball strategies). However, I'd like to see the other 2 maps have no RNG at all, and let Shatter be the RNG map. Here are a couple of suggestions:

1. Seal Rock: Remove RNG entirely by having 8 permanently spawned Tomeliths. The Tomelith in the center of the map can be an S-rank node, 4 other surrounding tomeliths being A-rank, and 3 tomeliths closest to each teams base being B-rank tomeliths. As your team holds more than 2 tomeliths simultaneously, each additional tomelith will add a point multiplier to your team score. The map now becomes a capture and defend ruleset where teams are encouraged to split up into full and light parties to hold as many tomeliths as they can, while having a roaming party challenging the other teams. "Ice-lickers" can stay out of combat and defend nodes and easlily get their daily roulette bonuses while the more PvP avid players band together to conquer additional tomeliths. Win-win for everyone.

2. Onsal Hakair: Remove RNG in favor of a battle-royale format centered on the middle oovoo. Increase the size of the central platform. Exchange the ramps leading up to the center platform for launch pads that are temporarily active for 1 minute at the start of a "round". At the start of the match teams launch up to the center platform and PvP to be the last team standing. Using the launcher gives you a debuff preventing you from being launched into the center again for the remainder of the round. Players killed or knocked off the platform can still PvP other knocked down players for points. Respawns may occur until the round is over but you can not launch onto the central platform again until the next round. Raid-wide buffs spawn around the map that knocked off players can challenge (similar to the bases in Secure where the buff goes to whichever team has more players standing in the circle)After some time, the central platform gets the "heat wave" mechanic from Red Sands until 1 team wins. Once a winner is determined, the winning team is awarded a lump sum of points and all players PvP and challenge raid-buff objectives until the platforms become active again. 3 rounds. This map would offer different strategies to achieve the point win condition. You could go for middle oovoo lump sum points, PvP the knocked off players for points, collect and hold all raid buff locations to buff your team at the center oovoo, or a mix of everything.


These are just a couple of ideas for ways in which each frontline map has the potential to become something entirely other than RNG/Deathball and still have PvE and PvP elements. I'm sure the creative development team is much more creative than I am at coming up with something even more practical and enjoyable.

years ago i used to play pvp now i just play the game i got my mount and they can just deal with it them selfs i have moved on from that mess.

I'm staunchly against the removal of any rng on objectives, which tends to make maps a lot more boring on the long run because they're run exactly the same every time, or close to it. It was a big problem with old secure, the gameplay became stale very fast, and the only redeeming factor was the map layout itself.

while were at it remove 3rd place from frontlines(and the entire shatter map?)
its already bad enough with being one sided(genius premades with ninja/war/drk/drg/ast/sam lb and stun stacking)
the frontline map before the one we got yesterday we also got lowscore third but its disappointing when you and your team get enough points to"almost" get to second place
then out of nowhere the bh5s premade comes in with stun and limit break stacking and steals the points(oh ive had this happen in my matches more than once)

but yesterdays group had"too much healers" and"lacked the damage" surprise both enemy teams got higher points than us for their easy 1st and 2nd place
this is what happens when you get 3 nodes in seize and think the enemy teams wont notice(and gank you in true 2vs1 style)and steal them afterwards
no offence to anyone that actually participates enough to try to win
but if people do these frontlines with the mentality"just for the tomes/free afk exp" i might just take the 30 minutes penalty if lowscore third if theres no real effort from my team atleast

Crazy to see so many people crying. There's a big skill issue for most, but also accept that you can't always win, especially in a 3-faction game with rng elements (both are which are good). Some people are whining but also trying way too hard instead of analyzing and focusing on their gameplay.

The skill gap us a major issue. I don't know if people are trying hard and whining... maybe trying or whining >.>

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Envoyé par Teno

Crazy to see so many people crying. There's a big skill issue for most, but also accept that you can't always win, especially in a 3-faction game with rng elements (both are which are good). Some people are whining but also trying way too hard instead of analyzing and focusing on their gameplay.

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Yeah, if every match we have to think the perfect game then it will be way harder to enjoy.

Although Shatter remains the most boring atrocious mode now and I only feel excitement when we properly skirmish and not just play hot potato with the 3rd team lol

ESO a pvp game? there hasnt been pvp content added since imperial city, lead pvp designer left years ago. ESO is catered to pvers.

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Envoyé par Archeron

I'd rather they just go back to 8v8v8 and limit premades to two players. maybe just go to two teams of 25v25 with simpler map designs.

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the idea that i shouldnt be able to play with my friends because we make you lose is asinine.

Honestly, I just had a few matches where our alliance gave up on playing because there's a 'premade' on the other team. People don't even want to try anymore, and honestly, when I see my team not even wanting to fight and just rolling over because there's a premade on the other side, it's just sad. It's not fun being on the premade's team either because 'steam rolling' the other team to me isn't 'fun', it's not a 'good game' nor does it feel good. People coming at me with like 'just wait till you're on their team'...

I don't want to try anymore honestly either, I just want my series exp but even that feels excruciating with how unfun frontlines feel to me.

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Envoyé par OliviaLugria

The skill gap us a major issue. I don't know if people are trying hard and whining... maybe trying or whining >.>

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A skill gap which you insist on widening by running your premades.

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Envoyé par Mawlzy

A skill gap which you insist on widening by running your premades.

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It is an Ouroboros relationship, so don't complain.
You may claim the premade further widening the skill gap; while it may be true, but Premade is created because of good players got pushed into corner by players that are not trying hard and whining.

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Envoyé par Divinemights

It is an Ouroboros relationship, so don't complain.
You may claim the premade further widening the skill gap; while it may be true, but Premade is created because of good players got pushed into corner by players that are not trying hard and whining.

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This is the harsh truth of the situation, as more and more people give up at the start of the match because of premades, more FL veterans will either form their own premades or quit FL entirely, so your chances of finding good solo players will keep diminishing.

Side note: Since travel to Materia DC is active, I'd encourage people to travel there for a match or two to see how JP/OCE deals with premades.

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Envoyé par Divinemights

It is an Ouroboros relationship, so don't complain.
You may claim the premade further widening the skill gap; while it may be true, but Premade is created because of good players got pushed into corner by players that are not trying hard and whining.

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Premade play in roulette FLs doesn't require skill whatsoever. It just requires a coordinated use of LBs. The most 'skill' you could claim it requires is a basic knowledge of what classes complement each other well. Strategy, objectives, wider alliance teamwork are almost entirely unnecessary for a decent premade - run in, LB, run away, repeat.
What is far harder is trying counter a premade team without playing as premade yourself.

It feels like one side is playing one game, and the other side a totally different game, and both are mutually exclusive to my own enjoyment.

- I didn't mind fighting against premades because it's still fun to mess with their BH5 players, but the games end in less than 10min most of the time which is just extremely frustrating and yields games with not much happening if at all.
- I hate being on the premade's side because no matter what I do, I'm useless, they don't need me, and the game will end in less than 10min anyway.
- I don't want to be part of a premade myself even though I tried. It's boring and uninteresting gameplay.

This is why I quit, not because people keel over at the start of a game. If anything, I myself gave up when I stopped participating into them. It's not the first time this happens either, I also did during SB at some points where high BH nin premades were so dominating that it felt like seal clubbing and the only way to deal with them was to stay in our spawns and deny them any fight or fun until they left the queue.

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Envoyé par Scintilla

Premade play in roulette FLs doesn't require skill whatsoever. It just requires a coordinated use of LBs. The most 'skill' you could claim it requires is a basic knowledge of what classes complement each other well. Strategy, objectives, wider alliance teamwork are almost entirely unnecessary for a decent premade - run in, LB, run away, repeat.
What is far harder is trying counter a premade team without playing as premade yourself.

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No one is claiming Premade requires skills; at least, I am fairly certain I am not
People joined Premade mainly to avoid players that are not trying hard and constantly whining.

Premades are godlike. We all get it. In my experience, majority, if not all premades are extremely bad at avoiding being sandwiched *hint hint*. However, since not trusting no team and farming 3rd place is more popular and preferable I'm just going to step back and continue to let everyone change/adjust the rules.

Again, you can get rid of premades, and the only 2 things that are changing are the amount of effort put into killing and the difficulty with afk farming objectives, especially at the lower ranks. Playing just to earn experience points isn't going away. Fighting whoever is in front of you isn't going away. "Let 'em fight" definitely isn't going away since it's an undying religion. If it's somehow difficult to get to the objectives expect class nerfs and, in extreme cases, rule changes.

Citation:

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Envoyé par OliviaLugria

The skill gap us a major issue. I don't know if people are trying hard and whining... maybe trying or whining >.>

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I'll disagree with that statement. Many do not care about the results, many definitely do not care about skill, and those that verbally make it known that they do will either be ignored or be outright told to go play rank.