Now that FF16 will feature LGBT+ characters, can we get some rep in FF14 too?

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

Please stop letting Titanmen make forum accounts forever

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I want a topic where only Titanmen alts talk to each other. Making either a statement or agreeing to it. No one opposes anything. Would be funny.

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Originally Posted by BRVV

I want a topic where only Titanmen alts talk to each other. Making either a statement or agreeing to it. No one opposes anything. Would be funny.

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Now THAT would be great content.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Now THAT would be great content.

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if at least only to know what places to avoid

Dion Lesage is a powerful 2SLGBTQIA+ character in FF16 who was vital to the story and also had a touching character arc. When can FF14 also feature 2SLGBTQIA+ characters like Dion Lesage?

https://i.ibb.co/PrCBNVG/image-2023-07-08-005752459.png

If they can do it in FF16, they can do it in FF14 too.

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Originally Posted by NiceNox

Let me put it this way, if the story is set in the land where the prejudice and racism run rampant, very xenophobic, isolated, and homophobic, as well as that has very pale native inhabitants. Suddenly, despite the setting/lore, there's a dark-back character who is openly gay and tell everyone he meets that he is gay, yet, despite the setting of the location and lore, he serves no other purposes beside telling other people and players that he is dark and gay native, that, in my opinion, is what the token character is; the character than has no "character" and reason to be there beside to "be there" and make it more "inclusive" than it should be. Representation is good when it's not forceful and is flowing in the way the story progress, not just "just put one black man here and call it off" without serving any purpose. What I see in many western spheres is the notion of "just put gay or black characters here! What's so hard about that!" in which doesn't only disrupt the flow and logic of the world/setting, but instead of promoting diversity, they, on the contrary, also create the sense of animosity toward those people you want to represent as well, because, in the end, many people just want to play a good game, regardless of having representations or not.

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FF16 proved this wrong. The world of FF16 is homophobic, but we still have LGBTQIA+ representation.

Can't say I'm surprised the gay kiss scene had had the camera zooming all the way out during the kiss and moving at an angle to block the view of the faces.

Sure, it's better than nothing, but it would be nice for such scenes to be treated equally to straight scenes once in a while, especially with how rare canonically gay male main characters are in AAA games. In fact, they're so rare that I have trouble even THINKING of any characters where it's explicitly expressed in-game instead of having it relegated to external material.

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

FF16 proved this wrong. The world of FF16 is homophobic, but we still have LGBTQIA+ representation.

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Representation is made-up necessity.

Change my mind.

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

Dion Lesage is a powerful 2SLGBTQIA+ character in FF16 who was vital to the story and also had a touching character arc. When can FF14 also feature 2SLGBTQIA+ characters like Dion Lesage?

https://i.ibb.co/PrCBNVG/image-2023-07-08-005752459.png

If they can do it in FF16, they can do it in FF14 too.

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Maybe get some hormones in yourself if you can't control

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

Dion Lesage is a powerful 2SLGBTQIA+ character in FF16 who was vital to the story and also had a touching character arc. When can FF14 also feature 2SLGBTQIA+ characters like Dion Lesage?

https://i.ibb.co/PrCBNVG/image-2023-07-08-005752459.png

If they can do it in FF16, they can do it in FF14 too.

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Why you ask? Because that scene right there caused the game to be completely banned in a few countries. Go over there and try to change their minds.

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Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda

Why you ask? Because that scene right there caused the game to be completely banned in a few countries. Go over there and try to change their minds.

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It has been banned in exactly one country.
How many of the FFXIV players are from Saudi Arabia in your opinion? (You know, the game which isn't even localized in that country's main language?)
I don't think it impacts SE in a meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

It has been banned in exactly one country.
How many of the FFXIV players are from Saudi Arabia in your opinion? (You know, the game which isn't even localized in that country's main language?)
I don't think it impacts SE in a meaningful way.

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Actually it does have quite a few players, Ragnarok which is a world on Chaos has a lot of saudi arabian players, emiratis etc, basically lots of people from the middle east, so yes, it would impact SE in a meaningful way, for the sake of forcing this stuff into the game.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Actually it does have quite a few players, Ragnarok which is a world on Chaos has a lot of saudi arabian players, emiratis etc, basically lots of people from the middle east, so yes, it would impact SE in a meaningful way, for the sake of forcing this stuff into the game.

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Again FFXVI was banned in only one country in the middle east. So I don't even know why you bother talking about anything that's not Saudi Arabia.
Also, it seems insane to me that some people here actually condone big corporations bending the knee and applying censorship to please a country which actually executes people for being LGBT.
Have some decency.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Again FFXVI was banned in only one country in the middle east. So I don't even know why you bother talking about anything that's not Saudi Arabia.
Also, it seems insane to me that some people here actually condone big corporations bending the knee and applying censorship to please a country which actually executes people for being LGBT.
Have some decency.

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Its been interesting to see some of the reaction to it, specifically from folk who will rage at companies censoring the likes of ‘fan service’ based character art for western releases, but seem far more accepting of censoring LGBTQ+ content, for some reason…

You know what the saddest part about that scene was? When I had first saw it, I didn't even react like, "Oh cool there are gay people in this scene". My first reaction was a giggle that there were going to posts about this on the FFXIV forums. Had this place on my mind the whole time.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

You know what the saddest part about that scene was? When I had first saw it, I didn't even react like, "Oh cool there are gay people in this scene". My first reaction was a giggle that there were going to posts about this on the FFXIV forums. Had this place on my mind the whole time.

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To be fair, every notable thing from FFXVI has been made a post here.
I'm surprised Titanmen didn't try to milk that one sooner, it's such a low-hanging fruit.

But outside of very specific places on the internet, the gay kiss has been one of the game's least controversial parts.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Again FFXVI was banned in only one country in the middle east. So I don't even know why you bother talking about anything that's not Saudi Arabia.
Also, it seems insane to me that some people here actually condone big corporations bending the knee and applying censorship to please a country which actually executes people for being LGBT.
Have some decency.

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One country is enough to not bring it to an MMORPG like FFXIV, that's a lot of money lost over the months and years.

Also there's already LGBT stuff, and to even add to that, I am bisexual, I dont need every character in the game to be bisexual to feel "represented", hell I dont even need representation at all, I just.. dont care ? It's a video game

Because I have fun with both men and women every character in the game should be the same ? I should have "representation" ? What I do in my bedroom only matters to me, not every other person on the planet.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

One country is enough to not bring it to an MMORPG like FFXIV, that's a lot of money lost over the months and years.

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Source: "just believe me".
Your POV only works if you believe positive representation of LGBT people doesn't bring enough money to Square Enix that they have to cater to countries systematically murdering them to cover the costs.

All we know is that Saudi Arabia asked SE to remove a relatively unimportant gay kiss between two secondary characters or they would ban the game entirely, and SE didn't care. I don't think anyone would have even noticed its absence if it didn't happen, yet they didn't bother to do it.

Isn't that proof enough for you that they think it's worth it?

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Source: "just believe me".
Your POV only works if you believe positive representation of LGBT people doesn't bring enough money to Square Enix that they have to cater to countries systematically murdering them to cover the costs.

All we know is that Saudi Arabia asked SE to remove a relatively unimportant gay kiss between two secondary characters or they would ban the game entirely, and SE didn't care. I don't think anyone would have even noticed its absence if it didn't happen, yet they didn't bother to do it.

Isn't that proof enough for you that they think it's worth it?

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I mean, yes, one country is enough, that's a lot of money lost as I just mentioned.

Also you are delusional if you think people join this game because it's "LGBT friendly" ,idk what world you live in, you dont join a game telling yourself "oh this game is great it's lgbt friendly ! awesome !"

They didnt agree to remove what SA asked for, but that doesnt mean they will do the same mistake again, they now know what line is crossing it too far for those countries.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

They didnt agree to remove what SA asked for, but that doesnt mean they will do the same mistake again, they now know what line is crossing it too far for those countries.

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Square Enix isn't at their first rodeo, Life is Strange, another Square Enix published game was also banned in Saudi Arabia years ago for very similar reasons. Heck, one of the reason Don't Nod studio chosed Square Enix as their publisher is because it was the one big corporation which didn't want to censor their work.
There's an absolute 0% chance they didn't know it would happen with FFXVI. Big companies like SE usually have specifically dedicated team made specifically to evaluate how the game's content will affect the ratings and the sales in multiples countries. (Even much smaller dev teams do that, btw)

Also, "mistake"? At least try to hide your biais a little.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Square Enix isn't at their first rodeo, Life is Strange, another Square Enix published game was also banned in Saudi Arabia years ago for very similar reasons. Heck, one of the reason Don't Nod studio chosed Square Enix as their publisher is because it was the one big corporation which didn't want to censor their work.
There's an absolute 0% chance they didn't know it would happen with FFXVI. Big companies like SE usually have specifically dedicated team made specifically to evaluate how the game's content will affect the ratings and the sales in multiples countries. Even smallers one, btw.

Also, "mistake"? At least try to hide your biais a little.

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Yes I am bisexual and I am 100% biased towards Saudi Arabia, that clearly makes sense

/s

I said what I said, it's all about the money, those countries, in this particular case saudi arabia bring in money, period, SE is here to make money.

I will repeat though : What I do in my bed is my own problem, not everyone else's, I dont need representation in a video game, I dont need all the characters to suddenly become gay or bisexual.

What I liked about Dion is that I feel like he was the gay character done right. The LGBT parts weren't shoved down the throat. The kiss was there, it happened, and everyone moved on. It allowed him to feel like a normal human being to me because I wasn't constantly reminded every scene about his sexuality. I am a right leaning person and by the end of the game, Dion ended up becoming one of my favorite characters. So that should really tell you something. It kind of helps that the internet didn't make a big giant deal out of it like Ryne and Gaia holding hands. Dion is in my opinion, the best example of how we been wanting characters to be approached for a long time now. Instead of taking already established characters and turning them into something else. Other companies should really take note of how SE handled Dion and follow suit.

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Originally Posted by Nav_Fae

What I liked about Dion is that I feel like he was the gay character done right. The LGBT parts weren't shoved down the throat. The kiss was there, it happened, and everyone moved on. It allowed him to feel like a normal human being to me because I wasn't constantly reminded every scene about his sexuality. I am a right leaning person and by the end of the game, Dion ended up becoming one of my favorite characters. So that should really tell you something. It kind of helps that the internet didn't make a big giant deal out of it like Ryne and Gaia holding hands. Dion is in my opinion, the best example of how we been wanting characters to be approached for a long time now. Instead of taking already established characters and turning them into something else. Other companies should really take note of how SE handled Dion and follow suit.

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This is the biggest thing about all this tbh, if it's implemented right, it's fine, but the problem is that most of the time characters magically turn bisexual or gay, or even transgender, for no particular reason at all, and it's just right down people's throat for no reason, that's just not how you put inclusivity in your game, what happens is that you make people hate it because its literally so forced it's completely obvious

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

Yes I am bisexual and I am 100% biased towards Saudi Arabia, that clearly makes sense

/s

I said what I said, it's all about the money, those countries, in this particular case saudi arabia bring in money, period, SE is here to make money.

I will repeat though : What I do in my bed is my own problem, not everyone else's, I dont need representation in a video game, I dont need all the characters to suddenly become gay or bisexual.

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And my entire point is that if there's nothing wrong with it, why so much pushback? Going to the absurd lengths of arguing in favor of Saudi Arabia censorship or cynical money instead?
You said yourself that Dion was well implemented in XVI. Yes, I've hardly seen anyone disagree with that.
So didn't Square Enix prove they were able to tackle the subject tactfully already?

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

And my entire point is that if there's nothing wrong with it, why so much pushback? Going to the absurd lengths of arguing in favor of Saudi Arabia censorship or cynical money instead?
You said yourself that Dion was well implemented in XVI. Yes, I've hardly seen anyone disagree with that.
So didn't Square Enix prove they were able to tackle the subject tactfully already?

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If they implement in a meaningful way, sure, if they are going to force it and change a character's gender or sexuality for no reason at all, then no, most companies dont have a very good record of implementing it right, so it's always a bit eh

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

If they implement in a meaningful way, sure, if they are going to force it and change a character's gender or sexuality for no reason at all, then no, most companies dont have a very good record of implementing it right, so it's always a bit eh

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Well personally I'm not asking for that. I'm not sure anyone here is (except Titanmen but you know he's here for that kind of inflammatory takes). If representation can be done in meaningful ways, it's all the better.
I don't even care if FFXIV ever gets any representation in the future at this point, especially since my interest in this game has been waning after years of stupid decisions from SE.
But I don't want companies to be afraid to even try because it would offend some people who will never be happy about it anyway.

EDIT: Glad we managed to reach an understanding. It's especially rare here!

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Well personally I'm not asking for that. I'm not sure anyone here is (except Titanmen but you know he's here for that kind of inflammatory takes). If representation can be done in meaningful ways, it's all the better.
I don't even care if FFXIV ever gets any representation in the future at this point, especially since my interest in this game has been waning after years of stupid decisions from SE.
But I don't want companies to be afraid to even try because it would offend some people who will never be happy about it anyway.

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yeah nah I agree with you, as much as it's done in a meaningful way I approve, that's how it should be done

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Well personally I'm not asking for that. I'm not sure anyone here is (except Titanmen but you know he's here for that kind of inflammatory takes). If representation can be done in meaningful ways, it's all the better.

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I think thats one of the things that has always bugged me about these debates here, they get started and people seem to jump straight (haha) ahead and assume that people want offensive caricatures who mention their sexuality every 12 second and are predatory perverts. I do not think anyone has ever really said they want that, well perhaps TitanMan but they could not be more obvious a troll if they lived under a bridge. Dion is the exact type of character people actually want, someone who is a well-written individual where his sexuality is a building block of who he is, not the entire foundation. The fact there has not been as much blowback about it as expected is a welcoming sign (Even if its still depressing to see some rage against it) and honestly I think its worth the ban in Saudi and the like. They could have easily cut it and taken the cash, but they did not, and for all the crap SE has been doing of late, this choice is one I respect.

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Originally Posted by TitanMenII

Dion Lesage is a powerful 2SLGBTQIA+ character in FF16 who was vital to the story and also had a touching character arc. When can FF14 also feature 2SLGBTQIA+ characters like Dion Lesage?

https://i.ibb.co/PrCBNVG/image-2023-07-08-005752459.png

If they can do it in FF16, they can do it in FF14 too.

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Dion Lesausage! Dion Lesausage!


On topic: they dont need to be front and center just to tick boxes. Get over yourself.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

This is the biggest thing about all this tbh, if it's implemented right, it's fine, but the problem is that most of the time characters magically turn bisexual or gay, or even transgender, for no particular reason at all, and it's just right down people's throat for no reason, that's just not how you put inclusivity in your game, what happens is that you make people hate it because its literally so forced it's completely obvious

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I mean that's how real people are too. Some people are just gay, bi, or transgender etc for no reason.

In fact I'd argue there's literally no reason anyone is any of those things. It just happens lol

I'd be more weirded out if characters in a story had a reason to be gay. That reads like the writers are very straight and never met an lgbt person.

I mean heck, if you know any transgender folks, from the outside it can look like they randomly out of nowhere decided to change their gender, but it's just cause they didn't talk about it much before because;
-They're worried how people will react
-They weren't completely sure before taking the plunge.

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Originally Posted by SquirrelDerp

I mean that's how real people are too. Some people are just gay, bi, or transgender etc for no reason.

In fact I'd argue there's literally no reason anyone is any of those things. It just happens lol

I'd be more weirded out if characters in a story had a reason to be gay. That reads like the writers are very straight and never met an lgbt person.

I mean heck, if you know any transgender folks, from the outside it can look like they randomly out of nowhere decided to change their gender, but it's just cause they didn't talk about it much before because;
-They're worried how people will react
-They weren't completely sure before taking the plunge.

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I really dont think you understood my point

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I really dont think you understood my point

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Just because I didn't agree, doesn't mean I didn't understand.

My point is people are messy, people 'randomly' become gay or trans, and that happening isn't it being forced down your throat, it's just realistic lol

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Originally Posted by SquirrelDerp

Just because I didn't agree, doesn't mean I didn't understand.

My point is people are messy, people 'randomly' become gay or trans, and that happening isn't it being forced down your throat, it's just realistic lol

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No you actually quite literally misunderstood it, be it on purpose or not, I never said you need to have a "reason" to be gay or bisexual, or even transgender, I am talking strictly from a video game standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

No you actually quite literally misnderstood it, be it on purpose or not, I never said you need to have a "reason" to be gay or bisexual, or even transgender, I am talking strictly from a video game standpoint.

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Hrm? Did you misspeak then?

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but the problem is that most of the time characters magically turn bisexual or gay, or even transgender, for no particular reason at all

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Because it sure seems that you think there not being a reason is "the problem"

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Originally Posted by SquirrelDerp

Hrm? Did you misspeak then?



Because it sure seems that you think there not being a reason is "the problem"

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pretty sure that she meant if they havent been gay for 10 years and suddenly there 50% of the main cast is gay or transgender... thats a problem. thats not representation, thats forcing it down your throat.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

pretty sure that she meant if they havent been gay for 10 years and suddenly there 50% of the main cast is gay or transgender... thats a problem. thats not representation, thats forcing it down your throat.

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And again, my point was that someone not being gay, then coming out as gay after you knew them for 10 years happens in real life all the time. It's realistic. If your cousin you've known since you were kids told you they're trans suddenly, would you accuse them of forcing it down your throat?

What game suddenly has a 50% of canon straight folks turn gay or trans? lol

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Originally Posted by SquirrelDerp

And again, my point was that someone not being gay, then coming out as gay after you knew them for 10 years happens in real life all the time. It's realistic. If your cousin you've known since you were kids told you they're trans suddenly, would you accuse them of forcing it down your throat?

What game suddenly has a 50% of canon straight folks turn gay or trans? lol

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never mind, I think you are obviously missing a point. have a wonderful day though ^^

Again, I see the point. I understand what you mean.

I just disagree. Because it happens in real life. It's not bad storytelling to reference real life, lol

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

pretty sure that she meant if they havent been gay for 10 years and suddenly there 50% of the main cast is gay or transgender... thats a problem. thats not representation, thats forcing it down your throat.

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Exactly, but that person is very stubborn so not worth arguing or trying to make them see logic

One good thing they did with Dion and Terence is that it never feels forced yet they didn't make the opposite mistake of having them being a straight couple with just one gender swapped. Adoption is an implied concern for them and their relationship is kept a secret (although the game never quite tells us why).
Another good point in Square Enix's favor is that they didn't take the cynical Disney route of over-advertising it everywhere they could to create the buzz. They silently added those characters to the game, put them at the forefront and never commented on it.

All around as good as we could have ever hoped.

If FFXIV ever gets a (non-tertiary) gay couple, this is how I'd hope it would be implemented.

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Originally Posted by SquirrelDerp

Again, I see the point. I understand what you mean.

I just disagree. Because it happens in real life. It's not bad storytelling to reference real life, lol

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but how would they do it in this rating of game without being in your face about it??

have Alisae say "by the way, I have male dangly bits" or walk in on Estinien and Alphinaud in a back room somewhere? the OP is a troll that constantly posts things like this for teh drama, and while yes, you are correct, it does happen in life, but writing it in tastefully and getting the point of it across is virtually impossible without having some npc running around in your face about it. how would any of the scions coming out, or any of the other major npc's be written so it actually relates to the story at this point? or is even relevant? most people playing, even members of those communities.. dont care, and have no need to see it. as a member of that side of things, all these threads are posted for is to stir up drama, nothing more.