We anticipate that even with this update, third parties will continue

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Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

Serious question, but haven't they banned people before for receiving gifts from friends that were paid for with stolen credit cards where the payment was discovered by the original owner of the card, disputed and bounced the charge?

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The thing is, if SE was banning people receiving gifts from friends that was paid with a stolen credit card... then they were banning the innocent victims. If I gifted you a mogshop item, you'd have no idea of knowing if that code was direct from the mogstation or indirectly purchased through a fraudulent reseller that intends to do a chargeback. SE's move, while unpopular, is probably the right move.

Consider the following scenarios:
- Player A purchases fraudulent code and gifts to Player B. Player B (innocent) gets banned
- Player A purchases fraudulent code and uses it him/herself. Player A (not innocent) gets banned

By removing the code entirely, it now removes the ability for fraudulent purchases to be resold to unsuspecting players. It does NOT remove fraudulent purchases from occurring... but for big ticket items like mounts, the risk is taken on by the purchaser/player not some unsuspecting recipient.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

They could also choose to gift non-cash-shop items, in which case prizes could still be given on the night.

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Some will. Which is going to lead to more people buying gil from RMT sellers to fund those in-game item giveaways.

Just coming in here to repost and add onto what I said in another thread on this topic:

It makes sense that the most valuable items are no longer giftable if people are literally having their credit cards stolen and used to buy them for x amount of people. There's a bigger picture here that kind of needs to be looked at. If there's a better solution then fair enough but this was probably the quickest way to find a fix while they work on a longterm solution. Sorry some people who wanted to steal people's information ruined it for everyone for now but people not being robbed is more importan than being able to gift the newest thing to your friend. Get them a prepaid gift card if you really are desperate to get them something off the Mogstation, if they're your friend they should appreciate whatever you're able to get them regardless of the method used.

The thing is, mounts are not a super big ticket item. Yes, there is the Lunar Whale at $42 as 8 people can ride it, Chocobo Carriage at $35.99 for 4 people, and 2 person mounts are $29.99, but most mounts are $24 with past event mounts at $12.
Of items still GIFTABLE: A story boost through Shadowbringers is $25. A Class boost to 80 is $25. The two newest outfits, Fat Cat Attire and Street Wear are both $22 a pop.
So, honestly, yes, there are SOME more expensive mounts, but most of them are less than stuff that is still giftable. This thought process in mind, there was no reason to lock mounts and minions down from being gifted to friends.

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Originally Posted by deebug96

The thing is, mounts are not a super big ticket item. Yes, there is the Lunar Whale at $42 as 8 people can ride it, Chocobo Carriage at $35.99 for 4 people, and 2 person mounts are $29.99, but most mounts are $24 with past event mounts at $12.
Of items still GIFTABLE: A story boost through Shadowbringers is $25. A Class boost to 80 is $25. The two newest outfits, Fat Cat Attire and Street Wear are both $22 a pop.
So, honestly, yes, there are SOME more expensive mounts, but most of them are less than stuff that is still giftable. This thought process in mind, there was no reason to lock mounts and minions down from being gifted to friends.

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It doesn't matter if something is $12 or $42. That's still profit to them because none of it is being bought through their own money. Selling a $3 costume discounted isn't worth it but $12 for $6? Or $42 for $21? Yeah, it adds up.

And yeah it is reasonable when people will wait out that 72h period to continue to make money. All they would have done was make the process longer (similar to how the black market for housing is still alive even with a 30 day wait, you just pay half up front now and get added to the FC and after 30 days pay the rest and get leadership), not stop it entirely without putting a hold on gifting the valuable items. It literally would have solved nothing.

It is a sound system and it works, else there would not be all these complaints about it.

Baffled that they also included the minions...

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

It doesn't matter if something is $12 or $42. That's still profit to them because none of it is being bought through their own money. Selling a $3 costume discounted isn't worth it but $12 for $6? Or $42 for $21? Yeah, it adds up.

And yeah it is reasonable when people will wait out that 72h period to continue to make money. All they would have done was make the process longer (similar to how the black market for housing is still alive even with a 30 day wait, you just pay half up front now and get added to the FC and after 30 days pay the rest and get leadership), not stop it entirely without putting a hold on gifting the valuable items. It literally would have solved nothing.

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I get that, but people have been saying Mounts are locked because they are big ticket items. If that was the case, anything that sells for $20 or more should be unable to be gifted. That would still let "lesser" mounts be gifted and minions.

And Five Phials of Fantasia is $49 and CAN STILL BE GIFTED. WHICH IS MORE THAN THE MOST EXPENSIVE MOUNT
Five Copies of Tales of Adventure: One Retainer's Journey III is $40.50 AND IS STILL GIFTABLE

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Originally Posted by deebug96

I get that, but people have been saying Mounts are locked because they are big ticket items. If that was the case, anything that sells for $20 or more should be unable to be gifted. That would still let "lesser" mounts be gifted and minions.

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My guess is the ones they sectioned off are the ones they're getting the most chargebacks over. I can't really comment on definites as I don't have access to sales over the period of time all of the chargebacks were happening.

Also that would fall in line with what you're saying that other expensive items are left alone. If people aren't buying them in general in mass quantities then there's less risk letting them sit there. People aren't just going to start buying tons of retainer stuff now just because of all of this when they were going to resellers for mounts or minions or emotes.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

..which is?

Given the size of this issue, what would you recommend?

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One idea: Allow the recipient to reject the gift. They can do so if they already have that mount/minion/emote. This would also give a quick solution if someone got a suspicious gift in the mail they didn't expect (as squeenix claims happens)

The only reason they turned off 1-time items is because someone could be stuck with a duplicate gift they already own.

This would be a significant improvement/addition to the current system.

They could either automatically refund the payment directly when rejected, OR refund the amount spent in crysta to the purchaser to prevent from unnecessary cash flow issues.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

My guess is the ones they sectioned off are the ones they're getting the most chargebacks over. I can't really comment on definites as I don't have access to sales over the period of time all of the chargebacks were happening.

Also that would fall in line with what you're saying that other expensive items are left alone. If people aren't buying them in general in mass quantities then there's less risk letting them sit there. People aren't just going to start buying tons of retainer stuff now just because of all of this when they were going to resellers for mounts or minions or emotes.

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Retainers I understand aren't a popular item, but Fantasias are. I know people that change race and gender every other day or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XaarKrey

One idea: Allow the recipient to reject the gift. They can do so if they already have that mount/minion/emote. This would also give a quick solution if someone got a suspicious gift in the mail they didn't expect (as squeenix claims happens)

The only reason they turned off 1-time items is because someone could be stuck with a duplicate gift they already own.

This would be a significant improvement/addition to the current system.

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And someone could gift me the Songbird outfit and it would be a duplicate item I already own.
Or a story boost through Shadowbringers which I have completed all of main story
Or a class boost to 80 which all my classes are maxed out.

Plus all mounts and minions owned show the on the players Lodestone along with Class levels. Outfits do not and story progression only shows if you have Achievements enabled and know what achievements go to the the current story.

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Originally Posted by deebug96

And someone could gift me the Songbird outfit and it would be a duplicate item I already own.

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And this would give you the option to reject the gift so your friend didnt waste their money. /shrug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

My guess is the ones they sectioned off are the ones they're getting the most chargebacks over. I can't really comment on definites as I don't have access to sales over the period of time all of the chargebacks were happening.

Also that would fall in line with what you're saying that other expensive items are left alone. If people aren't buying them in general in mass quantities then there's less risk letting them sit there. People aren't just going to start buying tons of retainer stuff now just because of all of this when they were going to resellers for mounts or minions or emotes.

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This is incorrect. They stated specifically in their own announcement that these items cannot be gifted due to them being one time use items to prevent gifting people things they already own. Which is counter productive when you can still gift job boosts and story skips which are one time use items, and provide actual in game gil. That's not even touching the fact that clothing items are also things that people could already have, meanwhile the SE Online Store already has access to our lodestones as they do a character verification through the lodestone to ensure it is being sent to the right character. Seeing as how mounts and minions are viewable through the lodestone it seems a bit odd that they can't just add that verification step.

Oh no the nightclubs hanger ons scamers and gamblers and their rmt gil resellers will have a hard time doing their giveaways to promote their stream bullshit and dripple feed their discord basement dwellers slave labourer ! Color me sadened ! They also have started asking their dancers and "hirees" to ask for real money for their erp / dances/ services instead of gils !

It's a side effect, but don't get me wrong, i am not really happy about this, because what really irks me with this decision is not even the fact u can't gift as easily items as before, nonono, it's that it will throw all these rmt profiteers and gil resellers into the only last bastion of rmt trolling and griefing existing in the game from now on, Savage / end game content. As if it wasn't already insufferable with all the NA trolls and mythic key destroyers from wow, piling on the EU pfs to purposefully make them bad/ impossible.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

..which is?

Given the size of this issue, what would you recommend?

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Remove all saved payment methods and ask players to enter them again. Done.

Wasn't so hard now, was it?

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Remove all saved payment methods and ask players to enter them again. Done.

Wasn't so hard now, was it?

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From my experience, the Mog store does not use saved payment methods. At least I've had to enter my credit card information every time I make a purchase. That's on the NA store, so it may be different elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

From my experience, the Mog store does not use saved payment methods. At least I've had to enter my credit card information every time I make a purchase. That's on the NA store, so it may be different elsewhere.

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Ah, so that whole twitter thing is complete armchair economist and SE absolutely had a different way out? Who would have thought...

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Originally Posted by Vrankyl

This is incorrect. They stated specifically in their own announcement that these items cannot be gifted due to them being one time use items to prevent gifting people things they already own. Which is counter productive when you can still gift job boosts and story skips which are one time use items, and provide actual in game gil. That's not even touching the fact that clothing items are also things that people could already have, meanwhile the SE Online Store already has access to our lodestones as they do a character verification through the lodestone to ensure it is being sent to the right character. Seeing as how mounts and minions are viewable through the lodestone it seems a bit odd that they can't just add that verification step.

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Thank you! Thank you! They already have every means to verify and since you can gift other one time use items, their model doesn't make sense. It's not based on mounts being most expensive as the most expensive thing in the Online Store isn't even a mount. The way they have done it makes no sense what so ever.

This might sound nutty but have a in game system for RTM so puts RTM out profit in some way.

Bring the Cash shop in game not an external website.
Give all players a #account name outside character names.
Let players send gifts to players in game to the #account name and not a code.

(Radical change biased on GW2 system)
Next is then make a Crysta the default cash shop currency that all players need buy with real money.
Set up a Trading Exchange that lets players Exchange Crysta for gill and Gill for Crysta. The value on conversion should always change biased on supply and demand of Crysta to gill.
Crysta to Gill should always be Pricier than Gill to Crysta.
You also block all cash shop and Exchanges on Free accounts and make so new accounts need a 7-day validation period before they can buy off cash shop with a new account that's not free account.

Also set a weekly / daily limit on the amount gill a player can trade to another player.
Add more free account restrictions to chat

Making everything internal will block External.

Just keep sub to real currency and can't be brought with in game Crysta that or make new currency type.

It might not work in FF14 but the place seen it implemented it works pretty well in as hard to make profit off as everything internal can only really then sell accounts.

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Ah, so that whole twitter thing is complete armchair economist and SE absolutely had a different way out? Who would have thought...

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Use of stolen credit card information is still ... theft. When a card-holder objects to a purchase which they did not make, it may take a bit of time, but eventually it gets refunded. I recently found an $80 charge on my card from a Real Estate something-or-other in Indiana. I live in Minnesota. Things worked out for me, but not for the company where the charge was made. Take that up a notch ... and note that it is a mass of compromised accounts plus (apparently) charges made using stolen credit cards.

It has nothing to do with saved payment methods, but that doesn't stop the illegal use of an account for illegal purposes (theft). The twitter posts were not, from memory, based soley on compromised account via saved payment methods.

I think the part that ticks me off is that they chose the dumbest, laziest way that impacts actual players. They don't ban the bots in Eureka or the ones that sit underground, yet no one can gift a mount/minion because you could gift something they already own. It's so stupid and has ruined my FC's events. :/

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Use of stolen credit card information is still ... theft. When a card-holder objects to a purchase which they did not make, it may take a bit of time, but eventually it gets refunded. I recently found an $80 charge on my card from a Real Estate something-or-other in Indiana. I live in Minnesota. Things worked out for me, but not for the company where the charge was made. Take that up a notch ... and note that it is a mass of compromised accounts plus (apparently) charges made using stolen credit cards.

It has nothing to do with saved payment methods, but that doesn't stop the illegal use of an account for illegal purposes (theft). The twitter posts were not, from memory, based soley on compromised account via saved payment methods.

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It literally opens with direct linking of the data breach to increased amount of charge backs. This can only apply to accounts with saved payment methods as credit card information isn't stored with SE. And if there was a major leak of credit cards, we'd be talking about a much more serious problem.

I too hate this change. minions and emotes were some of my favorite things to give my friends on their birthdays, or for FC events.

and it's a double slap to the face knowing that they KNOW it won't actually help against 3rd parties. So they know all this does is punish those of us tgat do follow the rules. it's so stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azuri

Ah, so that whole twitter thing is complete armchair economist and SE absolutely had a different way out? Who would have thought...

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The data breach occurred through other retailers. That meant that the dark web has a lot of stolen CC information floating around that could be purchased for very cheaply from the hackers. The hackers then combine the stolen SE account with a stolen third party credit card to make the purchase.

By the time the person whose CC was stolen discovers it, and the person whose XIV account was compromised notifies SE of the issue, the thief has already purchased a few hundred dollars worth of Mogstation items to resell for valid cash.

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Originally Posted by Blood_Blossoms

Next is then make a Crysta the default cash shop currency that all players need buy with real money.
Set up a Trading Exchange that lets players Exchange Crysta for gill and Gill for Crysta. The value on conversion should always change biased on supply and demand of Crysta to gill.
Crysta to Gill should always be Pricier than Gill to Crysta.

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You've essentially replaced "WoW Tokens" with "Crysta", for those more familiar with World of Warcraft than Guild Wars 2.

GW2's in-game cash shop doesn't prevent me from logging into your account. It also has the disadvantage of using a saved credit card if one exists for your account (paypal is pretty much the same) to purchase Crystals. (The 'preview' button appears to have issues online at this moment).

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

You've essentially replaced "WoW Tokens" with "Crysta", for those more familiar with World of Warcraft than Guild Wars 2.

GW2's in-game cash shop doesn't prevent me from logging into your account. It also has the disadvantage of using a saved credit card if one exists for your account (paypal is pretty much the same) to purchase Crystals. (The 'preview' button appears to have issues online at this moment).

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TBH nothing's going stops that people logging into your account if you let them so can't do much about that RTM.
only thing you can do is put in regen login locks but that's very extreme by monitoring suspicious activity.

also, they don't need to save that info really down to game devs if they want to or not but permit that option just cues ease of use

but the approach overall is a layered system, changing one thing won't help.

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Originally Posted by Blood_Blossoms

also, they don't need to save that info really down to game devs if they want to or not but permit that option just cues ease of use

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I suspect that is why the Mog store always asks me for credit card information. The devs for the store (who are not the devs for the game) do not allow it.

On the limitations of what can and can't be gifted, along with the "its to prevent sending duplicates of something they own" claim (if we take that at face value), is there some kind of inherent difference in the nature of the items received?

In particular, I wonder if it could relate to whether you can discard the item and/or whether you can still use it to remove it from your inventory.

If (I'm speculating because I can't confirm) you can't discard things like the minion and mount items and can't use them if you already obtained the thing, then they would be permanently stuck in the recipient's inventory unless manually deleted by tech support.

That's all I can think of for a logical reason why this could be a genuine problem.

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Originally Posted by LathyrusLoon

and it's a double slap to the face knowing that they KNOW it won't actually help against 3rd parties. So they know all this does is punish those of us tgat do follow the rules. it's so stupid.

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Read the actual article and not the OP's inaccurate summary-by-reaction. They do not say that they "know it won't help", they say that they know the scammers will continue to attempt to get around it, as a step to saying they have processes in place to delete illegally-obtained items from the buyer's account.

It's understandable to be upset, but it's also important to be upset at what they actually did say and not somebody else's claim of what they said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I suspect that is why the Mog store always asks me for credit card information. The devs for the store (who are not the devs for the game) do not allow it.

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Pretty much SE always been hard RTM but at the same time not they just always handle it poorly. but definitely been good about account security but even that fails.
Probs why need to get bit more extreme but not so extreme they limit the player base.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Read the actual article and not the OP's inaccurate summary-by-reaction. They do not say that they "know it won't help", they say that they know the scammers will continue to attempt to get around it, as a step to saying they have processes in place to delete illegally-obtained items from the buyer's account.

It's understandable to be upset, but it's also important to be upset at what they actually did say and not somebody else's claim of what they said.

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This. RMTers will always try to get around these things, which is what Square is saying. So long as people keep buying this stuff and there's a profit margin for the 3rd parties to keep doing it, they'll keep doing it.

But one look at a very popular item code resale website has shown effectively every mogstation mount listing has been wiped out, and the remaining few have new notices like 'while code supplies last'. This change Impacted them heavily. They'll likely try and figure out how to monetize the remaining options as best they can, but in one decisive strike, Square just crushed 95% of the code relisting sellers. It is working.

This situation is almost completely temporary. You think Square would just leave money on the table for literally no reason? No, thats absurd, they're a capitalist business. This whole situation just screams of 'we needed a solution NOW, we'll implement this and then change it when we get a better one operational' to me.

EDIT: super cropped to not promote said website, but just to showcase:

This guy used to have 150 some odd offerings for basically everything on the mogstation that wasn't already dirt cheap. Today he's down to 18, with the indigo whale & chocobo carriage being the only two remaining, with only 2 & 3 supplies remaining in the listings respectively. His store offerings got annihilated

https://i.imgur.com/Nh5mQ3k.png

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Originally Posted by SenseiMaria

This. RMTers will always try to get around these things, which is what Square is saying. So long as people keep buying this stuff and there's a profit margin for the 3rd parties to keep doing it, they'll keep doing it.

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This is a curious thing that I don't see many people consider all that often.

Okay, so we hammer down on third party tools because they're too easy to add. All it takes is people finding an exploit or workaround, and that will be explored as hard as it can be. And odds are, Square won't be the ones designing this tool themselves, they'll use anti-cheat methods that are out there, which are still just as vulnerable. It'll stop cheating for the first few times, but again, all it takes is people finding a window and they'll squeeze right in.

They can try to make it harder. But obviously, some third party tools are actually helping the game just as much as they're hindering it. And some fall in a gray zone that Square is "okay" with, even if just through word of mouth. Suddenly all of those will be blacklisted, and you don't see Square go out of their way to implement an official version of their own.

And it's not like their decision doesn't harm them. Square Enix isn't stupid. It wasn't Yoshida who randomly came up with the idea, it wasn't even one of their interns. It was a collective decision, and while it likely is the most extreme, it's also the most immediate and guaranteed fix. This is going to hurt Square, this is going to upset quite a lot of people. But this is also going to ensure that the game isn't screwed over in the long term. And if it removes incentives from people taking your account details, then that's a good thing. Maybe in the future they may reconsider it, create a workaround, talk to people and so on. But for now, this is the avenue that they've chosen, and while it's a sucky sacrifice, it's a sacrifice that seems to be paying off as much (if not more) than it's hurting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

...And it's not like their decision doesn't harm them. Square Enix isn't stupid. It wasn't Yoshida who randomly came up with the idea, it wasn't even one of their interns. It was a collective decision, and while it likely is the most extreme, it's also the most immediate and guaranteed fix. This is going to hurt Square, this is going to upset quite a lot of people. But this is also going to ensure that the game isn't screwed over in the long term. And if it removes incentives from people taking your account details, then that's a good thing. Maybe in the future they may reconsider it, create a workaround, talk to people and so on. But for now, this is the avenue that they've chosen, and while it's a sucky sacrifice, it's a sacrifice that seems to be paying off as much (if not more) than it's hurting.

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And it may well be paying off, but unless the playerbase does speak and reasonably says "well this sucks, and we hope you can improve it" then SE will have little impetus for improving it. Gifting of mounts, minions, and emotes is lost to us forever.

I think it's quite reasonable they take their immediate action, for whatever real reason and harsh as it may be, but I do want them to sit down now and put some effort into this still so that things can be improved for us genuine players. Be that an increase in the time a friend needs to be in place, future delivery of an item, requiring OTP, checking IP address history, linking in the lodestone APIs on mount/minion possessions, or whatever it may be. Not that they are addressing a supposed problem, they should be able to work this out.

Posting this in all threads pertaining to the RMT bandaid:

Originally, I didn't give the RMT announcement a second glance until multiple YouTube vids popped up regarding what the changes meant for us. I had skimmed it thinking all items were now available to send directly to friends, which was great, but didn't see that all items were no longer available until these vids brought it to my attention.

Everyone has multiple reasons for hating this. Mine specifically is that online store prizes, given away during FC events, are so limited now. In running my FC for over 6 years, not once has anyone requested an item from this list of things that are still available to gift:
-Costume sets/Weapon/Armor Cosmetics
-Furnishing/Housing Items
-Fantasia
-Story skips/boosts
-Dyes

Mounts & emotes, both and more of which can no longer be gifted, were always what my FC was interested in receiving for their prizes. This is so limiting to my members, and I really hope this bandaid solution is changed. No need to punish the players for a lack of proper RMT control.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shibi

And it may well be paying off, but unless the playerbase does speak and reasonably says "well this sucks, and we hope you can improve it" then SE will have little impetus for improving it. Gifting of mounts, minions, and emotes is lost to us forever.

I think it's quite reasonable they take their immediate action, for whatever real reason and harsh as it may be, but I do want them to sit down now and put some effort into this still so that things can be improved for us genuine players. Be that an increase in the time a friend needs to be in place, future delivery of an item, requiring OTP, checking IP address history, linking in the lodestone APIs on mount/minion possessions, or whatever it may be. Not that they are addressing a supposed problem, they should be able to work this out.

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Yep. Not disputing that. In fact, according to that twitter post, assuming it's true, Square's hands were tied. They likely were forced to go for an extreme measure.

So if people want to change this and have them implement a different method, then we need to make it known. If you understand how finances and how the visa thing works, if you can provide a better way than just "reopen the thing and risk these charlatans coming in and ruining things again", then say something.

Like, yeah, people are upset. Because it is an extreme measure. But it wasn't so hare-brained, they likely are aware of the repercussions. So being angy at the devs over this is a bit... eh? What's important is to now tell the devs to work on a way around this in the future or use a different method. Assuming they want to listen ^^; could also be that they think this is fine and leave it as-is.

And it's even worse if it just so happens that you recently bought minions and mounts to give away during your free company Halloween party... And now can't.
And can't get a refund on the items either.

This is not the answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

they say that they know the scammers will continue to attempt to get around it, .

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I'm not sure what your reading comprehension level is...
But 'attempt' in this instance means 'will'.
Accusing me (the OP) of misconstruing... when that's actually -you- twisting? lol
Reading comprehension teaches you to SEE the clue to discern meaning.
Let me help you..

From Lodestone:
We anticipate that even with this update, third parties will continue their attempts to sell fraudulently obtained items at lower prices
by temporarily registering the buyer on their friend list.

So, while you're sitting there whinging at others for believing the OP who 'didn't finish the quote'... maybe YOU should finish the quote also since it actually flips back to my point of the RMT Criminals WILL continue and SE even says HOW they'll do it.

Thanks

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AshDidit

I'm not sure what your reading comprehension level is...
But 'attempt' in this instance means 'will'.
Accusing me (the OP) of misconstruing... when that's actually -you- twisting? lol
Reading comprehension teaches you to SEE the clue to discern meaning.
Let me help you..

From Lodestone:
We anticipate that even with this update, third parties will continue their attempts to sell fraudulently obtained items at lower prices
by temporarily registering the buyer on their friend list.

So, while you're sitting there whinging at others for believing the OP who 'didn't finish the quote'... maybe YOU should finish the quote also since it actually flips back to my point of the RMT Criminals WILL continue and SE even says HOW they'll do it.

Thanks

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Where did that person whine exactly? Can't say I saw any of that in their post