"I don't want to think while I play, so no one should be allowed to."

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Savage and Ultimate exist for you to have more pressure on you as a healer. Until healing is shown to be disproportionately easy in the hardest content, they're not gonna make the role more complicated.

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lol, lmao even

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Savage and Ultimate exist for you to have more pressure on you as a healer. Until healing is shown to be disproportionately easy in the hardest content, they're not gonna make the role more complicated.

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as someone who has solo'd p1s and p2s (and hoping to git gud enough for 3) what the absolute f did i just read?

EDIT: To back up how absolutely wrong your post is, I have some footage for you to watch of ultimate solo heals

UWU: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmbDbg33ryk

UCOB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBlgv22x58c

DSR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7q_PbP1ses

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Savage and Ultimate exist for you to have more pressure on you as a healer. Until healing is shown to be disproportionately easy in the hardest content, they're not gonna make the role more complicated.

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Oh please.
There are videos of people clearing Savage and Ultimates with no healers at all and solo healing has been a thing since ARR.
Healing is a joke in this game.

Going into UCOB doesnt magically make whatever job you're playing more interesting it'll only push you to play well and realize that your gameplay consists of spamming Glare XII 90% of the time while you try to not fall asleep clearing P1 for the 95th time

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Savage and Ultimate exist for you to have more pressure on you as a healer. Until healing is shown to be disproportionately easy in the hardest content, they're not gonna make the role more complicated.

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U mean the devs see those content as hard and meant to pressure healers however in reality its still undertuned and also barely have proper healing check or more precise concurent healings checks to make healers use more then 1 button or be on alert as well as any room for fixing errors due to 1hko mechanics/ 1 screw up=wipe mechs

In summery "what the dev envision" =/= "what actually happens"

Funny how many 'heal checks' that people described most of times are more of a 'mitigation check' than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Let me just emphasise this point of yours. It’s all that needs to be said really

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https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/...manfaceaua.jpg

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Savage and Ultimate exist for you to have more pressure on you as a healer. Until healing is shown to be disproportionately easy in the hardest content, they're not gonna make the role more complicated.

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A single raidwide doing more damage than you have HP if unmitigated isn't a heal check, it's a mitigation check.
Actual heal checks are rare and usually the very last mechanic of a fight like after merry-go-round, WL2, Cycles, Terminal, Curtain Call. The pressure of Savage and Ultimate is on the group as a whole to coordinate better, not the healers to just "heal moar".

For better or worse, it hardly aligns with their design philosophy anymore. They want content, regardless of the tag to be as accessible as possible to all players. Even if this (for lack of a better word) means accommodating those that don't necessarily care about their performance at a higher level (e.g., anti-DPS healers)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

snip

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Cool strawman, the more complex healer(s) could do less damage and I would play them. The only healer that even approaches interesting atm is AST. The healer with the lowest average rDPS in Savage atm is AST. I'll give you one guess as to which healer I play the most.

the Dark Souls/WoW toxic/elitist tangent helped me fill out my bingo card, thanks

Healers need to change or will be more and more a problem. I am not understanding why people are against this change. I play Healer since Stormblood in all diffilculty except Ultimate (yet). We have too much OGCD heal and DPS is rewarded and nothing else. With these two design choices of the devs healers need to change for more DPS options or they need to change the design and lets be honest look at the glamour system or housing will NEVER be happen. So dps it is and no it will not break the game but healers dont need to be fun or engaging.

But lets be cool and honest and make all classes that way:
BLM need to loose then most of its buttons and just 1 fire and 1 ice and the third is for big boom, Ninja has just a 3 button minigame wich cant be failed and when completed you do damage, dancer just have 1 AOE button and 2 dps buttons, 1 red and 1 blue but the do the same just diffrent colours and so on and on...

What this BS and nobody wants this? So why are you telling me as a healer i have to take this then ?

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

The problem with that mentality is that you'd need to increase the output from the entire game for it to work and even then, that only solves the issue in group content. Solo content would still be a slog to do on a healer because the healing threshold has to be low enough for any role to complete that content, meaning nothing changes for this content and Healers still suck for it. Doing Story content, Tribe quest, etc would still be boring to do since you can't reasonably increase the healing requirements on those, leaving healers with the same dull gameplay loop as before.

It's a bandaid fix at best and doesn't solve all the issues with healers.

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Solo content can be tuned separately, you know.

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Originally Posted by Komarimono

I can see both sides, but won't lie... Would be nice to I dunno, get at least a 1 2 3 combo as Healer? Something to weave in between heals, since if in a good group, you're rarely healing. I understand if in a bad group, and damage galore you're busy, but... As ya improve, doing something more then 1,1,1,1,1,1 in my case, and sometimes refreshing my DoT with C,1 as a Sage, does get kinda boring.

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Controller space limits how many buttons you get.

They'd have to not give you a new healing toy sometime too.

I've been healing in mmorpgs for a very long time, all the way back to 2002. I played SCH in HW and absolutely hated it.

My favorite iteration of healers was actually classic vanilla wow and TBC, where there was a lot if downtime and knowing when to heal and when to slip into the five second rule to regenerate mana was an acquired skill.

I don't like to have to push dps buttons, I'd rather be healing. I do the dos thing, because it's expected of me, but I don't have to like it.

So what if people dislike the added damage output and keeping people alive is harder? Not every role is going to be for everyone.

I could see maybe adding another dot, but dots are fire and forget and boring as hell. Combo skills are also boring. Maybe bring in something like wow hpal glimmer of light, where using an ability puts an effect on the target that heals or harms wall targets with it when you use abilities on other targets, or have dps spells reduce cds of other abilities so you can use your cds more often? Ability interplay can add complexity without going "hurr durr MOAR dps button pl0x" like I keep seeing suggested.

And maybe there shouldn't be so much downtime. Maybe you should want people topped off instead of sitting at 20%. Maybe damage varies more, same ability could hit harder or lighter randomly.

Anything other than "just add more dps buttons lol". There's plenty of other options

Explaining the same things over and over to the same Sylphies in every thread is just about as boring as 1-1-1-1 spam. I wish they'd either actually comprehend what people are saying or get new material.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Explaining the same things over and over to the same Sylphies in every thread is just about as boring as 1-1-1-1 spam. I wish they'd either actually comprehend what people are saying or get new material.

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Here, I'll try for you:

I DONT WANT TO DO DAMAGE! I DIDN'T BECOME A HEALER TO DO DAMAGE! I JUST WANT TO HEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAL.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

I JUST WANT TO HEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAL.

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Is there really still no Slyphie: The Musical?

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Originally Posted by Imora

Controller space limits how many buttons you get.

They'd have to not give you a new healing toy sometime too.

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Which, given that each additional healing tool given without increasing healing requirements (A) only causes them to make one another redundant and (B) is more often than not less capable of nuance than what came before... is hardly a problem.

I'm all for increasing relative healing requirements. --Emphasis on "relative," as that's what ultimately matters: your [free] healing potential vs. the span of time you have to raise party/target eHP to X to prevent death.--

Perhaps that ought to more target lull periods or be applied at blanket with the exception only of the rare powerful tankbuster or raid-wide, as to increases healing prevalence without so much increasing minimum skill requirements. However, that actually encourages removing certain healing tools (and perhaps some mild revision of certain others), not merely chucking more tools into an overladen pot.

In either case, healer offensive ppgcd should be increased in compensation for the likely lost GCD time. Now, you and like players may prefer not to have any added offensive tasks, such as would be given by increasing offensive ppgcd through new, non-filler actions instead of just adding Glare potency. But consider: You do not have to optimize that any more than you have to optimize Glare now. The main difference, for instance, from having more of your damage come from sources other than filler spam is that healing is less punishing (except at exactly the GCD by which you'd need to, say, reapply DoTs or use a CD).

Filler-centric damage actually most punishes players for making a single excess heal, regardless of the timing. Moreover, even the most powerful of rotational actions generally grant at most double a filler cast's potency. Presently, if you'd have spent a single GCDs than you'd have needed to on healing, that is as much as Combust is worth. If you are, say, willing (or unwittingly likely) to potentially GCD-overheal twice per minute, you're already playing at a level where you basically haven't put Combust on your bars; so why accept the one form of loss and not the identically potent either.


Tl;dr:

• Offering more than just filler spam actually softens the blow of potentially overhealing with one's GCDs while not actually demanding any more optimization of/around one's offensive kit than was already the case (seeing as every filler lost to overhealing was worth at least as much as having forgone a DoT entirely).
  
  
• Meanwhile, adding healing tools to an already overstuffed closet (due to healing requirements being so capped by design) already faces an effective loss (or, waste) of said healing tools, so there's little to nothing to be missed there.

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Originally Posted by Padudu

Here, I'll try for you:

I DONT WANT TO DO DAMAGE! I DIDN'T BECOME A HEALER TO DO DAMAGE! I JUST WANT TO HEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAL.

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Too bad. They have already said that they'll never increase the healing requirements beyond what is already in the game.

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Too bad. They have already said that they'll never increase the healing requirements beyond what is already in the game.

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And let's be honest: it wouldn't be the best way to address healer problems anyway.
The gap between a mindless Curebot and a skilled healer in terms of time spent actively is healing is huge - something that SE fostered unintentionally and now it is what it is and they have no way of increasing healing requirements without excluding players from playing healer which is apparently their worst nightmare. At least when it comes to excluding the lower end, they're entirely fine with driving away the upper end.

You'd need a pretty big increase of incoming damage to make decent healers feel busy with healing, an amount that would be impossible to manage for your average Curebot that spams 4 Medica II back to back when 3 people are dead and only 2 people took damage, starts a hardcast ress on one, gets interrupted by a mechanic 5s in, runs without doing anything, starts again, notices 4s in that the tank dropped, throws some Cure Is at the tank because those Medica II ate too much MP for their comfort, SC resses one person, does nothing while they wait for them to get up and give them a Regen while the boss aoe cast already started and then act all surprised when they somehow die again. They may even drop a "thanks for letting me solo heal -.-" at the end for good measure.

But SE wants these healers to have an easy time completing all casual and even some endgame content so veteran healers get thrown under the bus. Apparently inclusion is a one-way street and only important for one part of the playerbase, not the other.

tbf we should just start ignoring people we have a person defending players not being able to just stand in a single consistent spot for P3s. and i mean hey it works for the devs and SE after all so might as well right?

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

Too bad. They have already said that they'll never increase the healing requirements beyond what is already in the game.

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Of course not, which is why skill interplay would be the best option.

They're not going to increase healer dps so there's no reason to actually add a second dot or nuke. Instead of 2 1 1 1 1 you'd be pressing 2 3 1 1 1 and that's just as boring.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Of course not, which is why skill interplay would be the best option.

They're not going to increase healer dps so there's no reason to actually add a second dot or nuke. Instead of 2 1 1 1 1 you'd be pressing 2 3 1 1 1 and that's just as boring.

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DPS doesn't directly correlate to the number of abilities we have though? Case in point, our single target DPS has dropped quite significantly relative to the rest with the release of Endwalker despite nothing changing? We just do less damage single target now.

SE can simply further reduce the base damage on our core nuke and then restore us back up to that level through further actions and interactions within our kit.

Raw damage throughput really isn't the issue here and that's not really what people are angry about. It's the endless tedium of mindlessly spamming 1. Adding more interplay within our kit is a solution for sure, but there's no need to discount the addition of an extra dot (on a different timer hopefully!) as I think it's actually a great way to go. Having more damage coming from our dots than nukes actually closes the performance gap within the role with it being easier DPS for those that can't funnel as many of their GCDs into nukes as a more experienced player. Meanwhile it also offers the higher end player something extra to track. Everyone's a winner no?

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Originally Posted by Imora

I'd rather healers need to heal more rather than dps.

My favorite runs are when shit goes sideways and I can't just mindlessly art of war spam.

And I'm convinced that "omg drk is so hard to heal" comes from "I'd rather be art of war spamming" instead of hard casting heals.

If there were more to do than dpsing, healers wouldn't be complaining all the do is spam broil.

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I've previously suggested that FF14 healers have healer rotations be implemented into the game, and I would love to heal with some kind of proactive "build resources to heal more or dps more" healer design in this game. I'd love to have a healer who actually has decision making involved to when they're dpsing and healing, effectively juggling two rotations at once.

The problem is that SE is very adamant in putting in mitigation checks and call it heal checks instead, necessitating Square to either rebalance and redesign every fight in the game with the shiny new healer design, OR to buff every single job's damage resistance / healing output to establish a new baseline, essentially making ALL of old content (including Ultimates) worthless, exacerbating an already HUGE problem going from one expansion to the next (potency powercreep); And based on their job design going from Stormblood to Shadowbringers, something tells me they're willing to ruin Synced MINE instead of putting in effort in the first place.

And that's not talking about the fact that this will raise the skill floor substantially, something SE clearly doesn't like doing. So this is pretty much impossible to gain traction with the dev team. They're really big in the whole "everyone can pick up and play ANY JOB and master EVERY JOB in FIVE MINUTES!" mentality to the point that they've been gutting BOTH the skill floor AND slkill ceiling in half for years at this point (and they're still not stopping, Kaiten I miss you, and Brd DoTs will be next mark my words).

To illustrate how much SE LOVES this mindset, they've recently kicked their healer from their content test team because they've gotten too good. Wanna know why that healer got considered to have become too good to begin with? That healer... started doing Extremes...

The only thing left is something that will add to the skill ceiling without increasing the skill floor, which is extra dps buttons. That's the sad reality of it, and it's a compromise that falls under what the dev teams want and what most healers want, a low skill floor and a higher skill ceiling.

Would I like a harder disc priest in FF14? Absolutely. I would LOVE to heal more, but like it or not, people like us aren't the ones paying for Fantasias and keeping our sub on to keep their Venues open. We're not the core audience of this game ever since Shadowbringers, and, with how much they gutted the job design and removed stuff like Kaiten, Bard and DoTs synergy, Coeurl Form positionals, and literally just general design stuff like healer homogenization, tanks homogenization, physical ranged identity being ripped to shreds, Stormblood MCH being removed from the game, they'd rather alienate the people who actually LOVE improving, the complexity of the jobs and reaching for the skill ceiling rather than the people who gives them record breaking profits each quarter.

So yeah. DPS options are the only scraps that I see that they're willing to give us, and even OPTIONAL DPS BUTTONS THAT YOU DONT NEED TO PRESS IF YOU WANNA STAND THERE AND SPOT HEAL EVERY 30 SECONDS AND ONLY EXISTS FOR THE HEALERS WHO WANT TO MAKE USE OF THAT DOWNTIME is being met with fierce resistance, even though that's literally not gonna affect the content they do in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Imora

Of course not, which is why skill interplay would be the best option.

They're not going to increase healer dps so there's no reason to actually add a second dot or nuke. Instead of 2 1 1 1 1 you'd be pressing 2 3 1 1 1 and that's just as boring.

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Okay, bring back Quickened Aetherflow so I can use Energy Drain more then

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Okay, bring back Quickened Aetherflow so I can use Energy Drain more then

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I'd actually rather they remove ED entirely.

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Originally Posted by Imora

I'd actually rather they remove ED entirely.

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Play Sage then.

Not all Jobs need to be needlessly complicated just for the sake of it.

Besides, most FF14 players are casual. I don't see Square appealing to a severe minority at the cost of the vast majority.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Not all Jobs need to be needlessly complicated just for the sake of it.

Besides, most FF14 players are casual. I don't see Square appealing to a severe minority at the cost of the vast majority.

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and not all jobs need to be needlessly simple for the sake of it

besides, a not-insignificant subset of the playerbase isnt casual. the vast majority isnt 100%, so why should 100% of the jobs cater to them?

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Not all Jobs need to be needlessly complicated just for the sake of it.

Besides, most FF14 players are casual. I don't see Square appealing to a severe minority at the cost of the vast majority.

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No job in this game is "needlessly complicated", and besides, nobody is asking for that. BLM is easy to pick up and understand - dump fire, run out of MP, use ice to gain it back. However, BLM offers a lot of optimization and a higher skill ceiling than every other job in the game. Nothing is preventing you from playing BLM and doing well in casual content as it stands. Can you name some jobs you consider "needlessly complicated" and then explain why?

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Originally Posted by QooEr

and not all jobs need to be needlessly simple for the sake of it

besides, a not-insignificant subset of the playerbase isnt casual. the vast majority isnt 100%, so why should 100% of the jobs cater to them?

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It's all or nothing, otherwise players would categorize them as raid and non-raid jobs and SE wants every job to be invited to content. Or, if a job was just harder to play for no benefit then people would avoid that job and SE also wants to prevent that.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's all or nothing, otherwise players would categorize them as raid and non-raid jobs and SE wants every job to be invited to content. Or, if a job was just harder to play for no benefit then people would avoid that job and SE also wants to prevent that.

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the only reason jobs have historically not been invited has been because jobs underperform, not because theyre simple.
your second point is bs because who like that play style would play it. theres 19 jobs, enough to cater to a ton of different playstyle preferences. theres also always going to be a most played and least played job.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

and not all jobs need to be needlessly simple for the sake of it

besides, a not-insignificant subset of the playerbase isnt casual. the vast majority isnt 100%, so why should 100% of the jobs cater to them?

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But I make up the majority so, it's okay ! :D


(jk) lol.

Though- I don't agree with purposefully making substantial differences in OUTPUT of a job given difficulty, which I have seen is a suggestion here, but I do agree some jobs should cater to different types of players. Like, particularly OG Black Mage (less true now...), with black mage it paid to know the fights, or Paladin having understanding of certain abilities could time their defenses extremely well meanwhile some other tanks might have been more reactive kits.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Not all Jobs need to be needlessly complicated just for the sake of it.

Besides, most FF14 players are casual. I don't see Square appealing to a severe minority at the cost of the vast majority.

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“Severe minority” when a large number of servers get upwards of 30% of their population doing savage. Lol. And if you’re a hypercasual, why would a job being complicated matter to you anyway? You wouldn’t be doing any content that requires optimization to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Play Sage then.

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They did it before, they can do it again.

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Originally Posted by Imora

They did it before, they can do it again.

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And they did. On sage.

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Originally Posted by Imora

They did it before, they can do it again.

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They made it more of a DPS gain this expac than it was last expac, but they made Sage for people who don't like it. Sounds like you've got your solution right there.

Rotations should be optimal inside macros, change my mind.

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Originally Posted by Lubu_Mykono

Rotations should be optimal inside macros, change my mind.

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funny part is if you could make a macro command to turn your camera in game you could in theory macro an entire savage fight. if it wasn't for the fact you can't chain macros without plugins that is but yes with out current macro system you could theoretically do that

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Originally Posted by Kazelus

They won't fail more content than now. People who can clear EX/Savage as a healer will still be able to do so with more complex rotation. People who can't handle more complex rotation have in first nothing to do in such content at the start.

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Which is it? They won't fail more content than now, or they WILL fail more content now unless they can "handle" more complex rotations? You straight up rejected your own position when you said "People who can't handle...(have) nothing to do in such content". You're basically saying people don't DESERVE to do the content unless they do a more complex rotation, which by definition means the people not doing so WILL fail more content than now. (Aside: All you beating me over the head for my elitist remark, here's yet another example of it...)

Moreover, while many who do such content might be able to adjust - which is what you're saying - what if they don't really WANT to? What if they don't ENJOY DPS rotations? What if the reason they play healers is because they don't enjoy DPS rotations, and healer is the only role in the game that lets them play without DPS rotations? What then?

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And healer must have a same level of complexity, you can't keep up the bottom complexity of an actual healer and increase the others, that's not really a good idea.

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Why?

You say it's not a good idea...why not?

Because people will pick the simpler ones because they're easier to play, thus showing that those of you who like complex are the minority? Or because you'd be worried people wouldn't bring you on your complex Job to their parties? Why is this bad, EXACTLY?

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The difficulty will increase for people who CARES, that's all.

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You JUST SAID that people who "don't care" will not be able to do content, and people who DO care to do Extremes/Savages on any level will have to change.

THE DIFFICULTY WILL INCREASE.

That's literally what I've been saying. It will increase for everyone, because anyone not doing it will be "badz", and you know it. This is all I'm trying to point out to you: There is no way to make all healers more complex in terms of DPS kits that does not, by any definition of the word, make them more difficult. More complex by necessity makes them more difficult. HOWEVER, making some (2-3) more difficult while leaving some (2 or even just 1) simple like now is the solution. It gives those of you that want complex something complex to entertain you, while not excluding people from the content that like healing as it is today.

The only thing to lose is that you have to give up the elitist desire that people playing easier Jobs get to clear the content you want to be exclusively for you...

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Cool strawman, the more complex healer(s) could do less damage and I would play them. The only healer that even approaches interesting atm is AST. The healer with the lowest average rDPS in Savage atm is AST. I'll give you one guess as to which healer I play the most.

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That's great, but you seem to be in the minority, looking at the other replies here insisting that NO healer can be left simple and they ALL must be changed. If you actually read my post - which it seems you did because of your canard at the end, but at the same time, it seems overall you did not - you might have seen the several times I mentioned that we can and should make 2-3 of the healers more complex while leaving 2-1 as they are today, which would achieve what you're asking for, would it not?

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Not all Jobs need to be needlessly complicated just for the sake of it.

Besides, most FF14 players are casual. I don't see Square appealing to a severe minority at the cost of the vast majority.

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This. Very much this.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

and not all jobs need to be needlessly simple for the sake of it

besides, a not-insignificant subset of the playerbase isnt casual. the vast majority isnt 100%, so why should 100% of the jobs cater to them?

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The thing is, when people suggest making SOME Jobs more complex but leaving SOME simple, those people are shot down by the demands that EVERY Job must be complex or it wouldn't be fair to the people wanting complex Jobs...somehow. For example:

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It's all or nothing, otherwise players would categorize them as raid and non-raid jobs and SE wants every job to be invited to content. Or, if a job was just harder to play for no benefit then people would avoid that job and SE also wants to prevent that.

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.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Though- I don't agree with purposefully making substantial differences in OUTPUT of a job given difficulty, which I have seen is a suggestion here, but I do agree some jobs should cater to different types of players. Like, particularly OG Black Mage (less true now...), with black mage it paid to know the fights, or Paladin having understanding of certain abilities could time their defenses extremely well meanwhile some other tanks might have been more reactive kits.

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Agree 100% with this. The thinnest roles still have 3 members (Ranged, Caster). Tanks and Healers have 4 each, and Melee 5. There's no reason we can't have a spread. The only role that really does right now are Tanks, with WAR being simple, PLD being rigid with lots of optimization options, and GNB and DRK being varying levels of challenge in their own ways, with GNB playing more like a DPS already. Oddly, it's the only role that really does this. Ranged are all different flavors of "mostly easy", Casters has a decent spread of easy (SMN), moderate (RDM), and hard (BLM), though there's a bit of a jump from RDM to BLM. And Healers (at least their damage kits) and Melee are more uniform with Healers' damage being simple and Melees not really having a "simple" option.

With all the Jobs we have, it should be more than possible to have a spread in each role so that players can gravitate to what playstyle they like best.

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Originally Posted by anhaato

“Severe minority” when a large number of servers get upwards of 30% of their population doing savage. Lol. And if you’re a hypercasual, why would a job being complicated matter to you anyway? You wouldn’t be doing any content that requires optimization to begin with.

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A lot of people do Savage that don't want complex Jobs, though. I've been farming P1S for a bit now and P2S when I felt more frisky, and this is the first tier I've ever tried Savage. So even in that 30% are many people that don't want needless complexity in Jobs. But, again, this is why my personal preference is to make 2 or 3 of the healers more complex while keeping 2 or 1 simple as they are now.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

SCHOOL ESSAY

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Why do you write so much stuff when you just fundamentally misunderstand what people are asking for? I'm pretty sure there isn't a single person in this thread saying every job needs to be complex, and other people have said as much...

That being said, let's keep the thread going, yeah?