So uh, wheres the long lasting content?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I love how you’re another example of what people have been saying in here. “HAVE YOU DONE X Y Z?!?!” which is really just the illusion of a meaningful grind but in reality you get very little for actually doing it.

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I'm not sure what you're expecting a video game to give you. Literally, you get nothing except fun from playing video games. There are a ton of activities to do that most of us find fun. Just because you don't find Beast Tribe quests, deliveries, relic grinds, ultimate raids, and leveling to be satisfying doesn't mean that the game isn't rewarding for most of us. Expecting the game to cater just to your preferences at everyone else's expense simply isn't reasonable. We can offer suggestions until everyone is blue in the face, but you're always going to shut it down with:

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

i don’t want to play gutted and simplified jobs. Maybe when SE decides to actually fix them and give attention to them i’d give them a try. I don’t understand how asking for more long lasting content and a better mid-core/endgame warrants “but did you do these super meaningless tasks from 3-4 expansions ago?!”

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So what I'm getting is that your complaint that there's nothing to do is really just a thinly veiled expression of your disapproval with the current job changes that most of us are perfectly fine with. With the exception of two jobs (Samurai, which could stand to have many buttons consolidated without having to eliminate a single skill and Summoner, which seems to evolve into a completely different job every expansion), most of the changes they've made have gone in the right direction. If you want constructive feedback for your complaints, then come right out and state them instead of complaining that you have nothing to do.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

are you really trying to use irl tragedies to fuel your argument? These are game forums, not some politics forum. Yes, im going to bring up content and problems with the game and not discuss every irl event because this isnt the place for it. Please grow up.



The first relic zone in sb was 4.25. Theyve progressively delayed it more and more over the expansions lifeimte. Asking for them in 6.25 isnt exactly early. Especially since relics came in 3.15 for HW if im not mistaken.

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I really am because the vibe I'm getting off this continued stream of tears feels like it's approaching / at that level. The level of dissatisfaction and the amount of energy being poured into this makes me think you take this whole thing a little too seriously and could really use a break. At least stop and figure out what it is you really want here.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

I'm not sure what you're expecting a video game to give you. Literally, you get nothing except fun from playing video games. There are a ton of activities to do that most of us find fun. Just because you don't find Beast Tribe quests, deliveries, relic grinds, ultimate raids, and leveling to be satisfying doesn't mean that the game isn't rewarding for most of us. Expecting the game to cater just to your preferences at everyone else's expense simply isn't reasonable. We can offer suggestions until everyone is blue in the face, but you're always going to shut it down with:

So what I'm getting is that your complaint that there's nothing to do is really just a thinly veiled expression of your disapproval with the current job changes that most of us are perfectly fine with. With the exception of two jobs (Samurai, which could stand to have many buttons consolidated without having to eliminate a single skill and Summoner, which seems to evolve into a completely different job every expansion), most of the changes they've made have gone in the right direction. If you want constructive feedback for your complaints, then come right out and state them instead of complaining that you have nothing to do.

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Theres a lot of assumptions going on when clearly you havent read any of my posts. I havent complained about relic grinds outside of the shb ones. I literally said i adored eureka... Beast tribes are literally heres something to do for 10 mins and thats it. Content over until the next day.Same with deliveries except its wait until next week.Ive already done savage this tier.

This is honestly the gatekeeping that people bring up time and time again though. You clearly cannot handle anyone critiquing content so you go and assume they must have some other problem or thei rother problems are some... "veil." Sorry to say, youre partially incorrect. My critique on the current content system of it being shit, is on top of, me thinking the current job design is shit. Neither is some veil over the other, so lets cool it with the conspiracy theories. Considering how many healer threads there are and how many qna questions are about healers, im inclinded to say not most of "us" are perfectly fine with them. Same goes for things like samurai,summoner,machinist, and so on and so forth. Just because YOU disagree doesnt mean everyone does. Im not sure btw, how asking for more long lasting endgame content or more midcore content is expecting the game to cater to my preferences. Its objectively something the game is lacking.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

I really am because the vibe I'm getting off this continued stream of tears feels like it's approaching / at that level. The level of dissatisfaction and the amount of energy being poured into this makes me think you take this whole thing a little too seriously and could really use a break. At least stop and figure out what it is you really want here.

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Again, this place is for criticism. If you cant handle peoples opinions or cant handle debate, then dont engage. Trying to tie irl events into this is just counterproductive and honestly childish.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

*looks at halo infinite* yeah ok bud it's so easy to keep a shooter alive. if you think you can just throw in a few maps and game modes and have a game that is still widely praised today (aside from some things that are honestly on the devs like bots, no support, or major updates etc...). and still retains a good playerbase/community then you're honestly nuts and know nothing of how to actually keep player retention.

wow eureka wasn't liked on launch and they learned from it and dropped a good piece of side content bozja. it's almost as if instead of just going oh this thing failed let's ignore it. you work on it and figure out how to make it better. thats what people expect from games that say they want to go on for 10 more years innovation, evolving gameplay, not basically the same content cycle but somehow taking longer inbetween each patch. and let's bring up island sanctuary. which is seen as an upgrade to housing (even tho it's more limited). it'll most likely just be the gardening system on a slightly bigger scale. and they already have a breeding system in place with chocobos that they would just have to tweak for animal breeding if they included it. it's prolly a farmland in the sky is all and will see mostly reused assets and systems the only really new things will be rendering multiple minions at once. and like i said animals and a bigger gardening system. we'd be lucky if we could put outdoors furnishings there. but i think they wouldn't hold that from us

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Halo Infinite had limited maps, limited playlists (due to apparently because of UI limitations. We still only have a single ranked playlist. No ranked swat, no doubles, no shotty/snipers....the lack of playlists and maps are the biggest problem with the game), limited cosmetic system, a bad progression system tied to a battle pass that people hate and a in general garbage F2P design that no one asked for. Halo Infinite's problems go WAY deeper than simply "content" because the core game is actually quite good. They just screwed everything else up.

Wanna try again with your terrible attempts at making comparisons?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Considering how many healer threads there are and how many qna questions are about healers, im inclinded to say not most of "us" are perfectly fine with them.

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In my experience, you can't engage in a meaningful conversation with those people. They complain that healing is boring outside of ultimates, but they don't want to do ultimates. If you point out that they can raise the bar and set a goal of keeping everyone topped off in normal mode, they counter that then they're overhealing. How would they even know that they're overhealing without using an addon that is against ToS anyway? Also, when did overhealing ever prevent anything in normal mode from being completed? Then they come back saying that they need more complex DPS rotations as healers. Well, then play a DPS job! It's also a stretch to say that "most" players feel that way. There are millions of players who are subscribed to the game. Even the most popular forum post has maybe hundreds of likes. Forum complaints naturally skew heavily in the direction of players who are unhappy with the game. Adjusting the gameplay to suit the preferences of this fringe is a great way to tank the game's popularity.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

In my experience, you can't engage in a meaningful conversation with those people. They complain that healing is boring outside of ultimates, but they don't want to do ultimates. If you point out that they can raise the bar and set a goal of keeping everyone topped off in normal mode, they counter that then they're overhealing. How would they even know that they're overhealing without using an addon that is against ToS anyway? Also, when did overhealing ever prevent anything in normal mode from being completed? Then they come back saying that they need more complex DPS rotations as healers. Well, then play a DPS job! It's also a stretch to say that "most" players feel that way. There are millions of players who are subscribed to the game. Even the most popular forum post has maybe hundreds of likes. Forum complaints naturally skew heavily in the direction of players who are unhappy with the game. Adjusting the gameplay to suit the preferences of this fringe is a great way to tank the game's popularity.

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Uh, many complain healing is boring even in Ultimates, just less so. Every form of combat content in 14 has the same issue with healers. You are left spamming a single button for 90% of a fight. That is not fun nor is it good design. You dont need any special tools to notice overhealing. Its painfully obvious in things like dungeons or even 8 man content when a healer is overhealing and not using that time to dps.when the main dev of the game gets told healers are unfun and not engaging and his only response is essentially f off and go do ultimate(where it isnt even that much better) there is an inherent issue.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Uh, many complain healing is boring even in Ultimates, just less so. Every form of combat content in 14 has the same issue with healers. You are left spamming a single button for 90% of a fight. That is not fun nor is it good design. You dont need any special tools to notice overhealing. Its painfully obvious in things like dungeons or even 8 man content when a healer is overhealing and not using that time to dps.when the main dev of the game gets told healers are unfun and not engaging and his only response is essentially f off and go do ultimate(where it isnt even that much better) there is an inherent issue.

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Thatsxjust it though. Many complain about heaing being boring yet many also are fine with it as is. Folks complaining aren't 100% correct nor are those ok with it. It's all opinions at the end of the day. Difference is its often seen that if you express you enjoy healing as is its said you have low standards or are bad at the game.

Also you taking Yoshi Ps answer as him telling us heal mains/users to f off is purely your injection

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Halo Infinite had limited maps, limited playlists (due to apparently because of UI limitations. We still only have a single ranked playlist. No ranked swat, no doubles, no shotty/snipers....the lack of playlists and maps are the biggest problem with the game), limited cosmetic system, a bad progression system tied to a battle pass that people hate and a in general garbage F2P design that no one asked for. Halo Infinite's problems go WAY deeper than simply "content" because the core game is actually quite good. They just screwed everything else up.

Wanna try again with your terrible attempts at making comparisons?

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so how many game modes/maps you want? you already have 4 modes for each playlist and 7 modes overall. and you have 10 maps overall which should be fine even if you only got 2 maps a playlist right? or is the content there not enough for you? hmm sounds familiar now doesn't it? also the core gameplay is good so you'd keep playing if the bad things were fixed or taken away right? also sounds familiar

the point is that what you said was in fact in halo infinite. and it still flopped ty for finally understanding what i was getting at. it doesn't matter off only just one thing but multiple things layered ontop of each other once again REGARDLESS OF GENRE.

so now we look at FFXIV you say just go do extreme mount farms. ok i two shot ARR trials as BLM and if i sync myself down the job becomes a hell of a lot less fun. so instead of them fixing the issue of jobs being not made for lower level content anymore. and introducing more unreal trials to give older trials a chance to be farmed at max level like they were back in the day. we the players should just suffer or play something non fun so we can get "content". it's no different than saying you can only get 1/4 fun game modes off a playlist. no it's not our job (devs) to make the modes more fun or add more modes or eliminate the RNG. it's your job (the players) to make the 3/4 modes that aren't fun fun. you see how stupid this mentality is?

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Thatsxjust it though. Many complain about heaing being boring yet many also are fine with it as is. Folks complaining aren't 100% correct nor are those ok with it. It's all opinions at the end of the day. Difference is its often seen that if you express you enjoy healing as is its said you have low standards or are bad at the game.

Also you taking Yoshi Ps answer as him telling us heal mains/users to f off is purely your injection

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Its essentially the same. He's ignored healer pleas for a long time now, even when Zepla, a very well known streamer who loves 14, has brought it up to him, because she too agrees there is a problem. It's not like the changes people ask for would come at the cost of other peoples enjoyment either. Adding more dps options doesnt mean players HAVE to use them. Its just more options for people who want to feel engaged. As it is right now, its many having to suffer because some people wont allow change.As a game dev, ignoring and gutting an entire role every expansion and not giving proper reasoning for it is lazy and downright unprofessional.

As we all know SE is a small Indie Dev Company so you can't be expecting so much from them.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Difference is its often seen that if you express you enjoy healing as is its said you have low standards or are bad at the game.

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The difference is they use a facetious argument along with the fact they like current healing and then get offended when they're shut down. You know this.

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

so how many game modes/maps you want? you already have 4 modes for each playlist and 7 modes overall. and you have 10 maps overall which should be fine even if you only got 2 maps a playlist right? or is the content there not enough for you? hmm sounds familiar now doesn't it? also the core gameplay is good so you'd keep playing if the bad things were fixed or taken away right? also sounds familiar

the point is that what you said was in fact in halo infinite. and it still flopped ty for finally understanding what i was getting at. it doesn't matter off only just one thing but multiple things layered ontop of each other once again REGARDLESS OF GENRE.

so now we look at FFXIV you say just go do extreme mount farms. ok i two shot ARR trials as BLM and if i sync myself down the job becomes a hell of a lot less fun. so instead of them fixing the issue of jobs being not made for lower level content anymore. and introducing more unreal trials to give older trials a chance to be farmed at max level like they were back in the day. we the players should just suffer or play something non fun so we can get "content". it's no different than saying you can only get 1/4 fun game modes off a playlist. no it's not our job (devs) to make the modes more fun or add more modes or eliminate the RNG. it's your job (the players) to make the 3/4 modes that aren't fun fun. you see how stupid this mentality is?

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You skimmed over all the problems and jumped right to content which isn't the core issue with Halo Infinite. Fix all the other problems and people would have been fine with the limited content. When the game launched you had quickplay and an event playlist and ranked. Ranked is STILL a single play list and we're still missing a ton of classic playlists.

I stopped playing because of the limited playlists, especially for ranked since I hate modes like oddball and because of the challenge system being just terrible. The challenge system was designed to encourage people to spend money in the in game store to buy swaps and instead people just constantly quit games over and over again until they get the mode they need to complete their challenge or they get their 15 minute ban. The progression system, the battle pass, the customizations, the challenge system and general progression are all BAD and then topple that with all the bugs and the constant crashing on the PC version (season 2 launched with a massive glitch that caused your gun to "jam" and randomly stop shooting so I haven't touched ranked at all for season 2 and I'm pretty sure they still haven't fixed it). That is why the game failed. Lack of content only had a small amount to do with it.

Again, any point you had to compare a pvp game to a pve game has completely failed.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Its essentially the same. He's ignored healer pleas for a long time now, even when Zepla, a very well known streamer who loves 14, has brought it up to him, because she too agrees there is a problem. It's not like the changes people ask for would come at the cost of other peoples enjoyment either. Adding more dps options doesnt mean players HAVE to use them. Its just more options for people who want to feel engaged. As it is right now, its many having to suffer because some people wont allow change.As a game dev, ignoring and gutting an entire role every expansion and not giving proper reasoning for it is lazy and downright unprofessional.

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No it isn't essentially the same. Again keep your injections out of it. Your applying malice to said response which I don't find fair as malice isn't clear there. And adding more dps kinda does mean players have to use them cause if they don't they'll be called lazy or bad because "there's no reason not to use them". We already see that now.

Also how do we know we're ignored? People seem to not get that things can be taken into consideration yet not acted on. "They didnt do as we said/asked therefore they ignored us" isnt how it always works. Also wasn't their reasoning ease of use? I'm almost certain that's what they said as the reason why they did this. To lower that barrier of entry.
Nothing lazy about it or unprofessional really. You and others may not like it which is fine but ts not lazy or unprofessional imo.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

No it isn't essentially the same. Again keep your injections out of it. Your applying malice to said response which I don't find fair as malice isn't clear there. And adding more dps kinda does mean players have to use them cause if they don't they'll be called lazy or bad because "there's no reason not to use them". We already see that now.

Also how do we know we're ignored? People seem to not get that things can be taken into consideration yet not acted on. "They didnt do as we said/asked therefore they ignored us" isnt how it always works. Also wasn't their reasoning ease of use? I'm almost certain that's what they said as the reason why they did this. To lower that barrier of entry.
Nothing lazy about it or unprofessional really. You and others may not like it which is fine but ts not lazy or unprofessional imo.

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Thats why i said basically.... They already do not use them. Adding more wont change anything for them, it merely gives players who want to do more the ability to do more. How do we know we're ignored? The fact that after 4-6 years we only just recently finally got a response on it. Or the fact nothing has changed and the healers have gotten objectively worse over time. There has constantly been a double standard when it comes to healers vs other jobs. Prime example being before the new ultimate. Yoshi p said he didnt want to do any siginificant changes to healers so close to the ultimate....yet directly after that he goes over significant changes theyre doing for dps jobs and says he believes they can adapt to it quickly before the ultimate...Yes, there is clear cut laziness and unprofessionalism going on. I dont expect you of all people to see that however so lets just agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

You skimmed over all the problems and jumped right to content which isn't the core issue with Halo Infinite. Fix all the other problems and people would have been fine with the limited content. When the game launched you had quickplay and an event playlist and ranked. Ranked is STILL a single play list and we're still missing a ton of classic playlists.

I stopped playing because of the limited playlists, especially for ranked since I hate modes like oddball and because of the challenge system being just terrible. The challenge system was designed to encourage people to spend money in the in game store to buy swaps and instead people just constantly quit games over and over again until they get the mode they need to complete their challenge or they get their 15 minute ban. The progression system, the battle pass, the customizations, the challenge system and general progression are all BAD and then topple that with all the bugs and the constant crashing on the PC version (season 2 launched with a massive glitch that caused your gun to "jam" and randomly stop shooting so I haven't touched ranked at all for season 2 and I'm pretty sure they still haven't fixed it). That is why the game failed. Lack of content only had a small amount to do with it.

Again, any point you had to compare a pvp game to a pve game has completely failed.

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hmm yes i'm one skipping over points when you clearly didn't read. "it doesn't matter off only just one thing but multiple things layered ontop of each other once again REGARDLESS OF GENRE." i provided a counter to your point and you ignored it the main talk was of maps and game modes and thats what i focussed on you know the CONTENT something that by itself was supposed to be able to solo carry a shooter pvp game. which it clearly didn't.

but keep going off about irrelevenat points ig. i even provided an example of how the content issues matches up but let's just ignore that as well ig

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Thats why i said basically.... They already do not use them. Adding more wont change anything for them, it merely gives players who want to do more the ability to do more. How do we know we're ignored? The fact that after 4-6 years we only just recently finally got a response on it. Or the fact nothing has changed and the healers have gotten objectively worse over time. There has constantly been a double standard when it comes to healers vs other jobs. Prime example being before the new ultimate. Yoshi p said he didnt want to do any siginificant changes to healers so close to the ultimate....yet directly after that he goes over significant changes theyre doing for dps jobs and says he believes they can adapt to it quickly before the ultimate...Yes, there is clear cut laziness and unprofessionalism going on. I dont expect you of all people to see that however so lets just agree to disagree.

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As fas I've seen and experienced healing was fine in SB. The changes didn't really start to happen til ShB so not sure about that 4 to 6 years bit. And yeah maybe they didn't want to make significant changes to healers as maybe that'd effect said ultimate far more. I don't work there as idk. None of us do. On the surface I could see that looking bad but I prefer not to just go by what's on the surface.

What you call laziness is moreso just destain for changes you want but aren't getting. Hell wouldn't constantly gutting (as folks put it require work to be done? Wouldn't that still require making sure said classes can still function and complete content? I could 100% be on board with you if healers were just downright garbage as classes. But this is about enjoyment which is heavily rooted in bias. Much harder to claim objectivity in that regard. I'm not saying healer couldn't use some work. I'm just saying I personally don't think this has to do with laziness r unprofessionalism.

And see, I'm willing to hear you out but then you go on and make a personal jab for no reason...like why dude? Was that really needed?

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Originally Posted by pikalovr

hmm yes i'm one skipping over points when you clearly didn't read. "it doesn't matter off only just one thing but multiple things layered ontop of each other once again REGARDLESS OF GENRE." i provided a counter to your point and you ignored it the main talk was of maps and game modes and thats what i focussed on you know the CONTENT something that by itself was supposed to be able to solo carry a shooter pvp game. which it clearly didn't.

but keep going off about irrelevenat points ig. i even provided an example of how the content issues matches up but let's just ignore that as well ig

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You had no actual counter point.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

As fas I've seen and experienced healing was fine in SB. The changes didn't really start to happen til ShB so not sure about that 4 to 6 years bit. And yeah maybe they didn't want to make significant changes to healers as maybe that'd effect said ultimate far more. I don't work there as idk. None of us do. On the surface I could see that looking bad but I prefer not to just go by what's on the surface.

What you call laziness is moreso just destain for changes you want but aren't getting. Hell wouldn't constantly gutting (as folks put it require work to be done? Wouldn't that still require making sure said classes can still function and complete content? I could 100% be on board with you if healers were just downright garbage as classes. But this is about enjoyment which is heavily rooted in bias. Much harder to claim objectivity in that regard. I'm not saying healer couldn't use some work. I'm just saying I personally don't think this has to do with laziness r unprofessionalism.

And see, I'm willing to hear you out but then you go on and make a personal jab for no reason...like why dude? Was that really needed?

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What is objectively enjoyable about spamming a single button for 90% of a fight even in Savage and Ultinage, the high tier end content? Let me ask you this. And i want your honest opinion. If we took away combo’s from every single dps job and tank, and instead gave them a single damage button with some ogcd’s thrown in to boost damage or what have you, do you truly think there wouldn’t be uproar? Look at the (understandable) reaction to samurai losing a *single* button. Imagine that for every dps job but instead of a single buttons it’s numerous. That’s the equivalent of what has happened to healers over the years. As far as healers go though, the gutting had slowly started in sb. It became much much more prominent in ShB yes, but sch is the one that comes to mind in terms of HW>SB gutting. Also whm was like….absolutely atrocious all throughout SB iirc.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

What is objectively enjoyable about spamming a single button for 90% of a fight even in Savage and Ultinage, the high tier end content? Let me ask you this. And i want your honest opinion. If we took away combo’s from every single dps job and tank, and instead gave them a single damage button with some ogcd’s thrown in to boost damage or what have you, do you truly think there wouldn’t be uproar? Look at the (understandable) reaction to samurai losing a *single* button. Imagine that for every dps job but instead of a single buttons it’s numerous. That’s the equivalent of what has happened to healers over the years. As far as healers go though, the gutting had slowly started in sb. It became much much more prominent in ShB yes, but sch is the one that comes to mind in terms of HW>SB gutting. Also whm was like….absolutely atrocious all throughout SB iirc.

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I never claimed there wouldn't be an uproar. And those 2 scenarios don't fully equate. I'd be all for less dps options on healers if it meant I'd be healing more. Dps and tanks are the ones that would make sense to have numerous dps options. Moreso dps because thats their role. Taking away dps options from dps isn't akin to taking dps option away from healers. The equivalent would be taking dps options away from dps and taking healing options away from healers. I couldn't rightfully say it'd be good or bad if they took dps options away from dps n tanks. Pvp has shown me classes can still be mad fun even with less buttons. That's my honest opinion there

I never claimed objectivity with healers being fun. Again some like healers rn and have fun and others don't. People (including myself) arent healer mains due to us hating the role. There has to be some osrt of enjoyment there. It's ok for both of those groups dude. Stuff 50 and under? Sure I'd say it not exactly good that I play stuff like Dissidia while running stuff. Higher level stuff that isn't the case for me. Things are far more engaging n I do genuinely have fun healing. Again, THATS OK. Just like someone who wouldn't touch healer now with a 10 ft pole. THATS OK. It's all down to preference

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Everytime someone has brought up a lack of content in EW or low quality content people have brought up how we’re getting the Tataru quests and the Omega quests. So, i gave the benefit of the doubt and said okay maybe this will be fully fleshed out long lasting quests. I guess i was wrong. Completed both in about an hour and a half…. So where exactly is all this new long lasting content? We still have to wait until what, July or August for 6.2?

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Just go do ultimate

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

In my experience, you can't engage in a meaningful conversation with those people.

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Oh, you mean "they disagree with me and refute everything I say so I ignore them and then later claim you can't engage in a meaningful conversation" huh? Got it.

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They complain that healing is boring outside of ultimates, but they don't want to do ultimates.

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I'mma be real with you, it's ridiculous that the same people who say "erm just unsub its not a game you're meant to be played all the time??" when people say they're bored then parrot Yoshida and say "erm go play Ultimate??" in regards to healers being boring. I shouldn't be forced to prog a fight for weeks to have fun on an entire role. I don't have time for that and quite frankly even if that was a solution, the last one they released before DSR was TEA back in 2019. What happens when people clear Ultimate? Just... do it again and again and then kick rocks if your static wants to not constantly replay a single fight? There's only one Ultimate at level 90, and likely will only be one more this entire expac. This is not a valid answer and it sidesteps the problem when even healer DPS is required in Ultimate content as well.

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If you point out that they can raise the bar and set a goal of keeping everyone topped off in normal mode, they counter that then they're overhealing.

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Wow, what incredibly bad design! You can just come up for little mini-games for yourself that don't contribute anything to the party so you can try to have fun! Contrary to what you might think, there are a lot of players who enjoy doing as best as they can, and with how all content is designed doing DPS and not spamming heals is what is correct. As people who want to help our party, why should we have fun doing something that doesn't help clear?

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How would they even know that they're overhealing without using an addon that is against ToS anyway? Also, when did overhealing ever prevent anything in normal mode from being completed?

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Lol it takes a genius rocket science and a ToS banned program to know that hitting heals when no healing needs to be done is overhealing. What a statement.

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Then they come back saying that they need more complex DPS rotations as healers. Well, then play a DPS job!

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No, I want to play a healer, but the game tells me I have to DPS in Extreme, Savage, etc content. It's also not fun to press buttons that don't need to be pressed just so I can have fake depth and pretend like I'm doing more. I don't want to play a DPS job, but I want to contribute to the team, so what am I supposed to do when there's nothing to heal? Exactly; you do DPS. The developers understand this and design the harder content to REQUIRE it.
Further, the options are all the same for every healer; no healer has a different DPS playstyle despite content requiring healers do as much DPS as possible to meet tight enrage timers. It's so bad that even something minor as giving SCH back Miasma on a different timer would make it feel way better to play and would let me happily main the job for all of this expac. We want more to do, DPS options are the quickest and easiest path considering how the game is designed.
I don't want to play a DPS, I want to play a healer. Scholar specifically is the only job I care about at all in this game above a baseline level. Seems a bit ridiculous to say "pick another job" when what Scholar had in the past is what I want. Maybe just go back to how it was? It had these things in the past; we're not asking for anything new or for the job to play differently.

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Adjusting the gameplay to suit the preferences of this fringe is a great way to tank the game's popularity.

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Yeah definitely it was removing the DoTs/Selene from SCH, AST's unique cards, etc that made this game get popular. Clearly, going back to the way things used to be would tank the games popularity. Oh wait, SCH and AST are still the two least played healers in the game, I am 100% positive that returning a few old actions will not cause the death of this game. People aren't signing up to play this game because "wow I heard all four of the healers spam 1 button for 70-80% of their casts, that sounds like the game for me!" they're signing up for the actual good aspects of the game.
And honestly, if there are people who would be sad that all four healers were no longer 1 button monsters, that's tough? They sure didn't really seem to care when every healer became what they are now. Let there be diversity back in this role so everyone can have the playstyle they want, rather than being forced into this nonsense.

The end game is the friends we make along the way and the cat girls we pay gil to bees knees dance for our amusement.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I never claimed there wouldn't be an uproar. And those 2 scenarios don't fully equate. I'd be all for less dps options on healers if it meant I'd be healing more. Dps and tanks are the ones that would make sense to have numerous dps options. Moreso dps because thats their role. Taking away dps options from dps isn't akin to taking dps option away from healers. The equivalent would be taking dps options away from dps and taking healing options away from healers. I couldn't rightfully say it'd be good or bad if they took dps options away from dps n tanks. Pvp has shown me classes can still be mad fun even with less buttons. That's my honest opinion there

I never claimed objectivity with healers being fun. Again some like healers rn and have fun and others don't. People (including myself) arent healer mains due to us hating the role. There has to be some osrt of enjoyment there. It's ok for both of those groups dude. Stuff 50 and under? Sure I'd say it not exactly good that I play stuff like Dissidia while running stuff. Higher level stuff that isn't the case for me. Things are far more engaging n I do genuinely have fun healing. Again, THATS OK. Just like someone who wouldn't touch healer now with a 10 ft pole. THATS OK. It's all down to preference

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Its not okay though. Its not okay for an entire role to suffer just because some people are okay with it now. Again, adjustments and changes can be made that literally wouldnt affect those who enjoy it now but would improve the experience for others. As it is, including in high end content, healers dont even need to gcd heal. Also yes, that something that many people have agreed upon. If healers actually had to heal more, then we wouldnt need more dps options. The fact is thats not the case though, and yoshi p has explicitly lied in both shb and Ew now saying that healers would be required to heal more, when that objectively. Not to mention, this expansion dps and tanks got more mitigation and heals, which means reducing a healers job even further. Lets look at dungeon content for a second. Is it okay for healers to not have to heal whatsoever when a warrior is in the party? A healer doesnt even have to do its job with a certain tank? This is the problem im talking about. The issues with the entire role have gone unnoticed and hardly talked about by the devs. Issues that shouldnt exist at all.When they have literally only 4 people on the job design team and none of them are healers, that says a whole lot. So no, it really is NOT okay that many players are suffering.Ultimately it is comparable because almost everything in this game is a dps check.

YoshiP actually addressed healing in one of the recent letters and talked about more encounters where more healing is needed. At the time he spoke about it, it was likely too late to really change much of anything in what's come out recently. We can probably expect to start seeing something in the next batch of content.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Its not okay though. Its not okay for an entire role to suffer just because some people are okay with it now. Again, adjustments and changes can be made that literally wouldnt affect those who enjoy it now but would improve the experience for others. As it is, including in high end content, healers dont even need to gcd heal. Also yes, that something that many people have agreed upon. If healers actually had to heal more, then we wouldnt need more dps options. The fact is thats not the case though, and yoshi p has explicitly lied in both shb and Ew now saying that healers would be required to heal more, when that objectively. Not to mention, this expansion dps and tanks got more mitigation and heals, which means reducing a healers job even further. Lets look at dungeon content for a second. Is it okay for healers to not have to heal whatsoever when a warrior is in the party? A healer doesnt even have to do its job with a certain tank? This is the problem im talking about. The issues with the entire role have gone unnoticed and hardly talked about by the devs. Issues that shouldnt exist at all.When they have literally only 4 people on the job design team and none of them are healers, that says a whole lot. So no, it really is NOT okay that many players are suffering.Ultimately it is comparable because almost everything in this game is a dps check.

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Most of the game isn't a dps check dude. It's not uncommon but they certainly don't compose of most of the game. Any changes to ANY class would effect all players using it no matter how small. I've already said the moment healers get more options the community will pressure healers to use them. Let's not be dishonest about that here.

As far as ShB goes healers having to heal more WAS the case. Holminster Switch was a huge wake up call. The removal of things like protect helped change that. BUT as time went on we got use to how it was and the playerbase adjusted to that. The more you do something the better at it you'll get. I wouldn't say Yoshi lied at all as far as ShB goes. I don't remember him saying that about EW though. I dont recall many dps getting more mitigation and heals. Tanks 100% got beefier in EW but you can't take that away without angering those people so that's a no no. On that topic of War I've yet to find a War that could get through a w2w dungeon with no heals from me. Ik it's possible, I'm just saying I don't think it's as common as folks say generally.

Nobody is suffering either dude. You gotta stop with the hyperbolic stuff. Again healers could use some work but man...let folks who enjoy it as is rn do so. If the devs make changes great, if not there's 15 other classes to use. I want Nocturnal Sect to return and don't mess with Ast much anymore due to its absence. Does that upset me? Very much so, but it's clear the devs are done with that so I move on and use something else.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

YoshiP actually addressed healing in one of the recent letters and talked about more encounters where more healing is needed. At the time he spoke about it, it was likely too late to really change much of anything in what's come out recently. We can probably expect to start seeing something in the next batch of content.

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This is literally what healers have been hearing for the past 4 years lol

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Most of the game isn't a dps check dude. It's not uncommon but they certainly don't compose of most of the game. Any changes to ANY class would effect all players using it no matter how small. I've already said the moment healers get more options the community will pressure healers to use them. Let's not be dishonest about that here.

As far as ShB goes healers having to heal more WAS the case. Holminster Switch was a huge wake up call. The removal of things like protect helped change that. BUT as time went on we got use to how it was and the playerbase adjusted to that. The more you do something the better at it you'll get. I wouldn't say Yoshi lied at all as far as ShB goes. I don't remember him saying that about EW though. I dont recall many dps getting more mitigation and heals. Tanks 100% got beefier in EW but you can't take that away without angering those people so that's a no no. On that topic of War I've yet to find a War that could get through a w2w dungeon with no heals from me. Ik it's possible, I'm just saying I don't think it's as common as folks say generally.

Nobody is suffering either dude. You gotta stop with the hyperbolic stuff. Again healers could use some work but man...let folks who enjoy it as is rn do so. If the devs make changes great, if not there's 15 other classes to use. I want Nocturnal Sect to return and don't mess with Ast much anymore due to its absence. Does that upset me? Very much so, but it's clear the devs are done with that so I move on and use something else.

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Nobody is suffering? Now thats just blatant dishonesty and ill just end the conversation about this here because theres numerous 100+ pages of healer mains talking about how much theyre suffering. This has completely derailed my thread in any case so i'd rather we just drop the subject. Clearly have two different viewpoints of the game and i'd rather not have blatant dishonesty in a debate.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

This is literally what healers have been hearing for the past 4 years lol

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Well, at least wait to see what happens this time. To think that you've been going on like this all that time is pretty sad. Like really... Maybe you've been going about it the wrong way. Like this convo is never gonna get where it apparently needs to.

What kind of nonsense is this, Ikara? When should people decide that enough is enough and demand changes? The WHOLE role of healing has been shanked. Not one healer, not two. ALL OF THEM. If you're a player that is interested in engaging healing, you're out of luck. Here, have 2 skills that you'll use throughout the fight, with one of them being used every 30 seconds or so. Healers were gutted and they have EVERY right to complain. This is not a free to play game, Square is not developing ANYTHING out of the kindness of their hearts, so stop trying to shut down criticism.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Most of the game isn't a dps check dude. It's not uncommon but they certainly don't compose of most of the game. Any changes to ANY class would effect all players using it no matter how small. I've already said the moment healers get more options the community will pressure healers to use them. Let's not be dishonest about that here.

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bro you are straight on something, do you even play the same game as I do? clearly not because I barely see healers DPSing in normal endwalker level content and nobody says anything to them. Just today I had a Vanaspati run on BRD where I noticed our healer not casting Glare at all or even using their DoT because I was watching my DoT upkeep and never saw the Dia icon, which made me watch their cast bars. I didn't say anything because I don't care, it's normal content and we will eventually clear.
I have literally never in the years I have played this game EVER had anyone say anything about my DPS on healer or any other job, not even in Savage pugs where I would be in Discord with randos who would have nothing happen to them if they called me out for low DPS.

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Tanks 100% got beefier in EW but you can't take that away without angering those people so that's a no no.

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Well they sure didn't seem to care when they did it to healers, huh? It's almost like we're third class citizens and the devs don't care about what healers want?

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let folks who enjoy it as is rn do so.

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If forum posts saying that 1-1-1-1 sucks are stopping people from enjoying healers then they have a much bigger problem. This is a very weird line because there are 4 healers that have this riveting gameplay, posts on these forums aren't stopping you from enjoying it?

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Originally Posted by Anura

What kind of nonsense is this, Ikara? When should people decide that enough is enough and demand changes? The WHOLE role of healing has been shanked. Not one healer, not two. ALL OF THEM. If you're a player that is interested in engaging healing, you're out of luck. Here, have 2 skills that you'll use throughout the fight, with one of them being used every 30 seconds or so. Healers were gutted and they have EVERY right to complain. This is not a free to play game, Square is not developing ANYTHING out of the kindness of their hearts, so stop trying to shut down criticism.

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You people aren't reading Jesus christ. WHEN DID I SAY PEOPLE CANT COMPLAIN!?!? How tf is me saying healers being enjoyable or not is due to preference considered an attempt to shut down critism? I've said NUMEROUS TIMES to give critism. NUMEROUS. I swear yall won't be happy until every single person on this forum agrees with you on every single gripe you have. Yall claim yall want discussions but when folks try to discuss things you don't listen and inject what hasn't even been said into the conversation.

Square doing nothing out of kindness is an opinion. Not a fact. Learn that not fully agreeing/disagreeing doesn't equal an attempt to shut down criticism. If anything you are trying to shut down any opinion that doesn't aline with yours by claiming it's just "nonsense"

Also Nizzi (as I have no clue how to quote multiple posts in one), I don't think you're lying when you say healers you see don't dps. That's YOUR experience. I'm not gonna say you're playing a different game or that "you're on something" because your experience happens to be different than mine. Again personal jabs for literally no reason

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

bro you are straight on something, do you even play the same game as I do? clearly not because I barely see healers DPSing in normal endwalker level content and nobody says anything to them. Just today I had a Vanaspati run on BRD where I noticed our healer not casting Glare at all or even using their DoT because I was watching my DoT upkeep and never saw the Dia icon, which made me watch their cast bars. I didn't say anything because I don't care, it's normal content and we will eventually clear.
I have literally never in the years I have played this game EVER had anyone say anything about my DPS on healer or any other job, not even in Savage pugs where I would be in Discord with randos who would have nothing happen to them if they called me out for low DPS.



Well they sure didn't seem to care when they did it to healers, huh? It's almost like we're third class citizens and the devs don't care about what healers want?


If forum posts saying that 1-1-1-1 sucks are stopping people from enjoying healers then they have a much bigger problem. This is a very weird line because there are 4 healers that have this riveting gameplay, posts on these forums aren't stopping you from enjoying it?

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On pulls, you can't blame healers for not casting nukes. it can be hard to weave those in depending on the situation. Some people are more nervous about that stuff than others. Some people just take the healer role literally and do just that. Bosses are another story and maybe they could be politely informed that it's okay to throw some nukes and DoTs on those. People barely ever talk about anything ever, so people just assume nothing is wrong with what they're doing. People need good, constructive feedback. (The devs are no different.)

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Also Nizzi (as I have no clue how to quote multiple posts in one), I don't think you're lying when you say healers you see don't dps. That's YOUR experience. I'm not gonna say you're playing a different game or that "you're on something" because your experience happens to be different than mine. Again personal jabs for literally no reason

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Just for future reference the way I do it is by hitting the quote button, copying that into notepad or something and then grabbing the other thing I want to quote and putting the original quote into the text box. Not sure if that would work on mobile or if you use something that isn't a PC though.

And that's not my point, my point is that I've never seen anyone complain about it, because it literally doesn't matter in normal content. As a healer main, would I like it if random healers DPSed too? Yeah sure, but I don't really care what other people are doing. If reintroducing removed DPS actions would cause a mass pandemic of people harassing healers to use the 1-3 more DPS buttons they have, just... ban them for harassment? The rules are pretty clear that you can't force a playstyle on others or aggressively harass other players to do things a certain way. If it was such an issue in the past that it made the developers remove DPS buttons, why didn't they just ban the people who were harassing other players? It's just an argument that doesn't make sense, not doing something because it might cause someone to be an asshole or hurt someone else's feelings is a bit ridiculous, no? The community isn't going to break if SCH gets a DoT or two back and then new players forget to press them or don't. By the time healers get to content where they'll need to use these buttons to clear, its all done via PF anyways so they can curate their own experiences and then bash their head against the wall if they're vehemently against pressing a few more buttons in downtime - but that won't be why they're unable to get a clear.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

On pulls, you can't blame healers for not casting nukes. it can be hard to weave those in depending on the situation. Some people are more nervous about that stuff than others. Some people just take the healer role literally and do just that. Bosses are another story and maybe they could be politely informed that it's okay to throw some nukes and DoTs on those. People barely ever talk about anything ever, so people just assume nothing is wrong with what they're doing. People need good, constructive feedback. (The devs are no different.)

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The healer I had specifically in Vanaspati wasn't doing it in bosses either, but I genuinely don't mind. If I'm playing roulette content I literally just want to get in and get out so if you do a good job healing and we don't wipe I'm not going to even care other than just noticing because I play healers so much. There's just not a situation where this would cause some unseen amount of toxicity from the playerbase towards healers, if anything it'd be likely be more understandable for newer players to not bother or to not be able to keep it up. One of the biggest complaints I see from the types of people who rant about random players in duty finder content is "YOU HAVE 2 BUTTONS AND YOU CANT HIT THEM ITS SO EASY" but if you had like 4-5 buttons you could be hitting, then yeah just focus on the heals instead of focusing on that. A large amount of frustration towards 0 DPS healers comes from the fact that they have made it so braindead to DPS, and it creates the aforementioned pressure to use them because "it's so easy".

One of the things I said in a thread about how SE should add Miasma back to SCH is how distributing more of SCH's ST damage into the DoTs would actually help newer players because they would be contributing more damage if they needed to stop pressing Ruin/Broil etc in order to heal because they panicked or forget to use oGCDs, etc, etc. As it stands now something like 75-80% of a healer's total damage comes from their 1 Nuke, which makes it more evident when a healer isn't constantly pumping that. The current design is unfriendly towards healers who dip into GCD healing because it hurts so much of their damage by doing so, but if a baby SCH had his Miasma and Bio going, they're still ticking and they're not at as much of a loss as they currently are.

Likely August. Hopefully it’s a Garlean patch too.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

And that's not my point, my point is that I've never seen anyone complain about it, because it literally doesn't matter in normal content. As a healer main, would I like it if random healers DPSed too? Yeah sure, but I don't really care what other people are doing. If reintroducing removed DPS actions would cause a mass pandemic of people harassing healers to use the 1-3 more DPS buttons they have, just... ban them for harassment? The rules are pretty clear that you can't force a playstyle on others or aggressively harass other players to do things a certain way. If it was such an issue in the past that it made the developers remove DPS buttons, why didn't they just ban the people who were harassing other players? It's just an argument that doesn't make sense, not doing something because it might cause someone to be an asshole or hurt someone else's feelings is a bit ridiculous, no? The community isn't going to break if SCH gets a DoT or two back and then new players forget to press them or don't.

The healer I had specifically in Vanaspati wasn't doing it in bosses either, but I genuinely don't mind. If I'm playing roulette content I literally just want to get in and get out so if you do a good job healing and we don't wipe I'm not going to even care other than just noticing because I play healers so much. There's just not a situation where this would cause some unseen amount of toxicity from the playerbase towards healers, if anything it'd be likely be more understandable for newer players to not bother or to not be able to keep it up.

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Ill have to give that a try as yeah I do use mobile for the most part. And I wasnt saying dont add more btw. Id be all for it (give me back my whm Aero 3 plz), I said what I did in respond to a claim that nothing would change for folks who already enjoy healing if more options were added. Ofc everyone will experience different people but its often frowned upon when healers arent dpsing. Just like its frowned upon (see the I think its the "Be nice to noob tanks" thread?) for a tank to not w2w. Difference there is people can make a tank pull more by pulling themselves (not exactly nice to do imo), but you cant do similar and make a healer dps more or at all. Alot of players want others to play to their standards regardless of said persons skill or situation. Why I like healing, keeps me on my shizz and allows me to help those who may be struggling.
Id never say giving us more options would create this sort of toxic air around healers but ill 100% say it will increase the expectation folks have of healers. (had to cut some of your stuff due to text limit my apologies)

And because it seems unless I say this folks get the wrong idea...this ISNT me saying to not improve the role

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Originally Posted by Yeastyloins

Just go do ultimate

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A respectable statement from someone not being paid to make and promote the game they built.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Lol it takes a genius rocket science and a ToS banned program to know that hitting heals when no healing needs to be done is overhealing. What a statement.

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Why do you think they nerfed thunder daddy 3 stack from a alliance wide wipe to a 60% health hit. People like that.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

You people aren't reading Jesus christ. WHEN DID I SAY PEOPLE CANT COMPLAIN!?!? How tf is me saying healers being enjoyable or not is due to preference considered an attempt to shut down critism? I've said NUMEROUS TIMES to give critism. NUMEROUS. I swear yall won't be happy until every single person on this forum agrees with you on every single gripe you have. Yall claim yall want discussions but when folks try to discuss things you don't listen and inject what hasn't even been said into the conversation.

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https://i.gifer.com/8Yfw.gif
People do be like this. Anything opposite is apparently Silencing Criticism

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Originally Posted by anhaato

“The story will get really good 30 hours in” has been replaced with “the expansion will get replayability 8 months in”

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This game rarely included content with much of a grind. Perhaps older relic weapons did to some degree.
What you are seeing is what you can expect from the game between expansions.

Been playing since beta and the no endgame/endgame is glamour/ hamster wheel gear progression/etc. has been beatin to death honestly. Regardless of any plausible points made the argument is always going to be did you do everything. Save your time and effort on something better because devs intentionally built the game this way sadly.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Adding more dps options doesnt mean players HAVE to use them.

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Do you honestly think the community wouldn't come to see those abilities as essential in the healer rotation and call anyone bad or trash who didn't use them? Let's not try to pretend like there would be any options here. Wanting more dps abilities would absolutely affect healer players of all skill levels and their enjoyment of the game.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Everytime someone has brought up a lack of content in EW or low quality content people have brought up how we’re getting the Tataru quests and the Omega quests. So, i gave the benefit of the doubt and said okay maybe this will be fully fleshed out long lasting quests. I guess i was wrong. Completed both in about an hour and a half…. So where exactly is all this new long lasting content? We still have to wait until what, July or August for 6.2?

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In a pure themepark game you will never have long lasting content.




Cheers