DPS/Healers pulling in dungeons

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

I do my aoe rotation but I'm still nervous when tanking so I might missclick and press my tank stance without noticing.

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I cant believe you would intentionally punish someone who accidentally targetted a mob outside your pull and attacked them without noticing. Tab targetting really does always select the target you dont want smh.

Just follow their pace and grab aggro from them, trust me, it's worth more than getting into an argument, nowadays when I get a speedy ADHD on my group I only really get angry when they pull(the very few) skippable mobs, like the sleeping Dragons on that HW dungeon.

There shouldn't even be a need for discussing this given how there is 0 aggro management and plenty of dashes/aoes. Plus, I pull ahead on sage for addersting.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I cant believe you would intentionally punish someone who accidentally targetted a mob outside your pull and attacked them without noticing. Tab targetting really does always select the target you dont want smh.

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While I'm obviously dishonest by pretending to be clueless I'm actually serious here. If I'm not expecting something I don't handle it very well.

Keep in mind it's harder for me to deal with that than it is for the dps to let me pull.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

The only assumption you should make in that situation is "I guess I can try wall to wall." Any other assumption you make is a stupid excuse to grief, especially if they bring the mobs back to you.
Tanking isn't hard to figure out. You just use your AoE combo to hold hate, cycle through your mitigations (bosses don't really need you to use Rampart and {2-minute CD}, so you can save those for the trash) and you're golden.

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See, I don't really get it why people have the infamous "tanxiety" in this game, Tank is kinda... Unnecessarily simple, in WoW I remember having M+xiety because as a tank I was basically the dad of the group, I had to plan everything from route to best build for that week while also compensating for any mistakes my DPS or Healers would make like pulling extra packs etc, but here... I mean, you even get tank privileges in Raids where you can just survive a fton of damage and brush it off while DPS and Healers just die in one fail mechanic.

I understood "tanxiety" back in ARR-StB days because enmity was a thing the whole party had to work around with (Quelling Strikes, Shrouded Saints, Diversion, Lucid Dreaming, Shade Walker, Smokescreen and all the tank stuff), especially as tanks could juggle between DPS and Tank stances and needed to worry about their MP and TP (AoE's were expensive and Flash genuinely sucked). It was possible for a BLM who knew their stuff to rip hate from a tank stance exclusive tank if they didn't use Quelling Strikes/Diversion. But ever since ShB, tanking has become the chillest role to play in the game.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

I do my aoe rotation but I'm still nervous when tanking so I might missclick and press my tank stance without noticing.

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Easy fix to this is to not have your tank stance button on your main hotbar (or if on mouse-keyboard, nowhere near the abilities you use frequently).

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Originally Posted by MoofiaBossVal

DPS and healers pulling isn't really a big deal. FFXIV is very easy and non-punishing. It's not like WoW where mobs burn through player HP in a few seconds and people get mad if a wipe happens because repair bills are expensive. Pulling raid bosses would sorta be a big deal because you're wasting a lot more people's time, and the money they dropped on potions.

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Yea, the problem is when people complain "y aren't u tanking? I'm taking damage"

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Originally Posted by Thorio

Yea, the problem is when people complain "y aren't u tanking? I'm taking damage"

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With how aggro works in this game this is the easiest problem in the world to fix.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

While I'm obviously dishonest by pretending to be clueless I'm actually serious here. If I'm not expecting something I don't handle it very well.

Keep in mind it's harder for me to deal with that than it is for the dps to let me pull.

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What's the worst thing that can happen? It's a wipe. That's it, there is nothing more on the line. Wipes happen in dungeons all the time and the only bad things that can come from it are of our own makings. Wipes are significantly more likely to happen when some people are already dead however. There is this idea that the dps dont matter in a dungeon run but it's actually far from that. Tank and healer resources are limited and you need everyone's damage to kill the mobs before those resources run out.

If the dps or healer are smart they will bring any and all aggro they have to where you are aoe'ing. It's incredibily annoying when they dont, I 100% agree with that. That's why people like me are in here saying you dont have to change anything that you're doing, just keep aoe'ing and keep mitigating.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

What's the worst thing that can happen? It's a wipe. That's it, there is nothing more on the line. Wipes happen in dungeons all the time and the only bad things that can come from it are of our own makings. Wipes are significantly more likely to happen when some people are already dead however. There is this idea that the dps dont matter in a dungeon run but it's actually far from that. Tank and healer resources are limited and you need everyone's damage to kill the mobs before those resources run out.

If the dps or healer are smart they will bring any and all aggro they have to where you are aoe'ing. It's incredibily annoying when they dont, I 100% agree with that. That's why people like me are in here saying you dont have to change anything that you're doing, just keep aoe'ing and keep mitigating.

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Wipes are great, it means I get all my cool downs back and can try again. Also, have you ever recovered from a near-wipe in a dungeon? It's the most adrenaline the content has to offer.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Good riddance to any tank who stops tanking over this. The game is a better place without them.

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2 minutes more gets you enrage already? No wonder decreasingly players like to do the tank job.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

2 minutes more gets you enrage already? No wonder decreasingly players like to do the tank job.

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You'd have to be absolutely crazy to stop tanking because a dps pulled for you. We can do without crazy people like that very easily. Maybe someone with trouble leading people will pick up tank then when we stop pretending that tank = leaders.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

You'd have to be absolutely crazy to stop tanking because a dps pulled for you. We can do without crazy people like that very easily. Maybe someone with trouble leading people will pick up tank then when we stop pretending that tank = leaders.

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Sounds like projection.

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Originally Posted by Thorio

Sounds like projection.

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Why do you think me crazy? Bring me the mirror you think I need.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

2 minutes more gets you enrage already? No wonder decreasingly players like to do the tank job.

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I mean, it's not 2 minutes. Taking one pull at a time means you're doubling and in some cases even tripling the amount of time it takes to clear the trash in the dungeon, while making it much less engaging for everyone involved.

With most dungeons having 12 trash packs (4 to each boss) taking them 1 at a time means adding six minutes to a dungeon run (assuming it takes about a minute to clear a pack) When dungeon runs are about 12~ minutes each, that means single pulling is making the entire run take 50% longer.

So not only are you significantly increasing how long it takes to get through, it's also going to feel longer because pulling 1 at a time is boring. This is especially bad for dps players, because they may have just waited 15 minutes or more to get into the dungeon in the first place.

And that's why I don't single pull, I care about and value the time of my fellow group members.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I mean, it's not 2 minutes. Taking one pull at a time means you're doubling and in some cases even tripling the amount of time it takes to clear the trash in the dungeon, while making it much less engaging for everyone involved.

With most dungeons having 12 trash packs (4 to each boss) taking them 1 at a time means adding six minutes to a dungeon run (assuming it takes about a minute to clear a pack) When dungeon runs are about 12~ minutes each, that means single pulling is making the entire run take 50% longer.

So not only are you significantly increasing how long it takes to get through, it's also going to feel longer because pulling 1 at a time is boring. This is especially bad for dps players, because they may have just waited 15 minutes or more to get into the dungeon in the first place.

And that's why I don't single pull, I care about and value the time of my fellow group members.

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Some tanks are still learning/unfamiliar or took a break you don't run 20 km after not running for months but start small and climb your way up.

Tell the tank to pull more and it's ok if something goes wrong instead of being rude and pulling without notice.

Obviously it's different if it is a "its just a game so I won't try to improve and will waste 3 people time for selfish reason".

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Originally Posted by Saraide

You'd have to be absolutely crazy to stop tanking because a dps pulled for you. We can do without crazy people like that very easily. Maybe someone with trouble leading people will pick up tank then when we stop pretending that tank = leaders.

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What's wrong with asking the tank to pull more instead of pulling more for him?

I don't understand why people have to be so impatient. You're literally wasting time in a game, so your time really can't be that valuable to start with. So why not just sit back with your coffee/tea/tasty adult beverage and let the tank do their thing? If your so uptight that somebody taking a half second longer to get things done triggers you, I question if you should even be logged in to begin with.

Big pulls, little pulls, occasional AFK - it don't matter - this healer has your back.

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Originally Posted by KariTheFox

I mean, it's not 2 minutes. Taking one pull at a time means you're doubling and in some cases even tripling the amount of time it takes to clear the trash in the dungeon, while making it much less engaging for everyone involved.

With most dungeons having 12 trash packs (4 to each boss) taking them 1 at a time means adding six minutes to a dungeon run (assuming it takes about a minute to clear a pack) When dungeon runs are about 12~ minutes each, that means single pulling is making the entire run take 50% longer.

So not only are you significantly increasing how long it takes to get through, it's also going to feel longer because pulling 1 at a time is boring. This is especially bad for dps players, because they may have just waited 15 minutes or more to get into the dungeon in the first place.

And that's why I don't single pull, I care about and value the time of my fellow group members.

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If you like to do wall to wall pull that's fine. But the time difference isn't that big as you think. I am running the dungeons also as an Astrologian. With single pulls i can hand out cards and do damage as well, mostly time no reposition needed. With wall to wall pull i could hand out cards bevor reaching end, but does not make much sense, buff is running out when all mob is in position. Otherwise i just heal the tank to keep him/her alive. Lots of ae from mobs to reposition all players, takes a long time.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

I don't understand why people have to be so impatient. You're literally wasting time in a game, so your time really can't be that valuable to start with. So why not just sit back with your coffee/tea/tasty adult beverage and let the tank do their thing? If your so uptight that somebody taking a half second longer to get things done triggers you, I question if you should even be logged in to begin with.

Big pulls, little pulls, occasional AFK - it don't matter - this healer has your back.

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I stand with this Healer!

I'm happy to slow down and sniff the roses or read the text. Some of these dungeons are beautiful, some have lots going on, if a tank or other group member wants to explore it, so be it.

(That last time I experienced this was in Ghimlyt Dark. It was a sprout tank running it for the first time pulling single packs, stopping to try and read the chat bubbles over the NPC's heads. This is Stormbloods epic finale dungeon, as healer, and partner on monk, we had no problems letting the tank take his time. A Dancer on the other hand was impatient and trying to pull extra. I can't remember how we resolved it, but eventually the Dancer got the hint that the rest of the group was ok to take it slow. )

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Originally Posted by Loonies

With wall to wall pull i could hand out cards bevor reaching end, but does not make much sense, buff is running out when all mob is in position.

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Hold off on using your cards until the enemies are in position at the wall, then? This seems like a very easy problem for you to solve.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

Some tanks are still learning/unfamiliar or took a break you don't run 20 km after not running for months but start small and climb your way up.

Tell the tank to pull more and it's ok if something goes wrong instead of being rude and pulling without notice.

Obviously it's different if it is a "its just a game so I won't try to improve and will waste 3 people time for selfish reason".

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I mean, I usually tank and know I can handle big pulls. If a tank is pulling slowly and I'm a healer I'll usually gently encourage them to pull more because again, I know I can handle it.

And I don't solo queue as dps specifically because I never want to deal with a tank and healer combo that refuses to pick up the pace when they're perfectly capable of it.

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Originally Posted by Jybril

What's wrong with asking the tank to pull more instead of pulling more for him?

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Nothing, have I claimed there was?

Honestly the tank sets the pace for the dungeon. If the tank takes it slow then respect the choice. I understand that healing like that is boring as hell but not much can be done about that at the moment. However I will say with healers being in such a horrid state it gets harder to make the content entertaining for them.

When I tank I try to make it fun for everyone n generally ask the healer "Hey u crazy enough for me to pull everything to the boss?" Generally I play DRK because it had little ways in terms of surviving without heals. If the healer seems nervous then 2 packs at a time. If not then wall to wall.

If someone pulls extra then yea ill try to pick it up n ask the person who did it to "please don't pull for me im doing smaller pulls because (insert reason here)". If they don't listen then they are on their own.

I do a similar thing with dps like if I see a dps pair that has great Gear on them then I'll do wall to wall n give the healer a heads up that "hey ill probably need a CD or 2 to survive this next pull" If it fails then "welp my bad wanted to try something fun for a bit."

Taking those few seconds at the start of a dungeon to Guage a group has made dungeons a bit more entertaining for me tbh.

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Originally Posted by Loonies

If you like to do wall to wall pull that's fine. But the time difference isn't that big as you think. I am running the dungeons also as an Astrologian. With single pulls i can hand out cards and do damage as well, mostly time no reposition needed. With wall to wall pull i could hand out cards bevor reaching end, but does not make much sense, buff is running out when all mob is in position. Otherwise i just heal the tank to keep him/her alive. Lots of ae from mobs to reposition all players, takes a long time.

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I'm glad I'm not the only person who realizes it's more than the number of mobs being pulled that affects time.

If your pulling really big, it might be great for your ego but you might not be all that efficient anyway.

- Healer that's chain healing you to keep you up can't contribute to the DPS
- Larger groups can't be covered by all AE's and thus are going to be living longer anyway. This is made even worse when the mobs in question have large hitboxes like the last leg of The Burn or the last pulls of Mt Gulg.

Frankly, I believe that some of these big pulls are more about ego and stroking e-peens than any contribution to actual efficiency.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

If your pulling really big, it might be great for your ego but you might not be all that efficient anyway.

- Healer that's chain healing you to keep you up can't contribute to the DPS
- Larger groups can't be covered by all AE's and thus are going to be living longer anyway. This is made even worse when the mobs in question have large hitboxes like the last leg of The Burn or the last pulls of Mt Gulg.

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These both sound like player error on the part of the tank- poor mitigation usage and poor enemy positioning respectively. It's completely possible to manage both of those pulls if the tank knows what they are doing.

That being said, if you're going to talk about being tolerant of newer, less experienced tanks who want to go slow, what about newer, less experienced tanks who want to try to pull w2w? The only way they're going to learn is with practice. Don't they deserve just as much patience and respect from the rest of the team?

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

I'm glad I'm not the only person who realizes it's more than the number of mobs being pulled that affects time.

If your pulling really big, it might be great for your ego but you might not be all that efficient anyway.

- Healer that's chain healing you to keep you up can't contribute to the DPS
- Larger groups can't be covered by all AE's and thus are going to be living longer anyway. This is made even worse when the mobs in question have large hitboxes like the last leg of The Burn or the last pulls of Mt Gulg.

Frankly, I believe that some of these big pulls are more about ego and stroking e-peens than any contribution to actual efficiency.

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Wait healers cant deal damage on big pulls? That's news to me, here i was using my damage skills like hall of the novice told me when actually you're supposed to be even harder on your resources by not dealing damage and making the pull take even longer...

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Originally Posted by Saraide

What's the worst thing that can happen? It's a wipe. That's it, there is nothing more on the line.

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I will note that at least in the NA data centers, you run into basically two main types of party by default: the party that says nothing (even if things go wrong), and the party with that one uptight jackass who experiences a wipe and screams at the tank about how they don't have time for this and just want to finish their roulette and god why are you so bad at your job, tank and whatever.

The latter isn't common, but when one type is "nothing happens" and the other time is "one of the party members turns into a screeching chimpanzee and starts hurling their own poop all over", the latter stands out more for many new players. Maybe they haven't tanked before but they've seen those moments and so they're nervous about "what if I screw up and people get upset?" Etc.

Heck, I'm an experienced MMO player but I had historically hated tanking. So when I decided to try it in this game (and eventually found out that I no longer hate tanking, and in fact can quite enjoy it) to get at the DRK job storyline, I was a little bit nervous -- admittedly, less about "will tanking be hard?!" and more about "am I going to do something stupid like overlook something that I've never really noticed about tanking?" (Answer: no. Tanking really is that easy, as long as you make at least some effort to push your cooldown buttons.)

However, my very first roulette as a tank took me into Haukke Manor. We finished the first boss and our sprout healer continued on through the room towards the entrance; I stopped to type in chat "Wait, the rest of the dungeon is back this way." to tell them to turn 180 and head over to the cellar. The other DPS did not wait for anyone, opened the cellar door, jumped down the stairs and hit sprint. The rest of us sprint to try to catch up as he proceeds to grab all the mobs at the base of the stairs, all the mobs along the hallway, and then try to unlock the final cell to get those mobs, too.

Needless to say, he did not get the cell door open before he was liquified by all the mobs he was trailing. The hungry horde turned their eyes towards us, and while I grabbed aggro, the tank kit at that level is not enough to really lessen the damage; you get Rampart, Arm's Length, and Reprisal. And while the poor sprout white mage was spamming their GCD heals in a panic, it's not like they had many other options for reaction even if it hadn't been blind panic.

Having healed that dungeon many, many times, I was not wall-to-walling because a) the dungeon has no walls to divide pulls, and b) AoE coverage across jobs at that level is... let's go with "not universal", tanks have a fairly minimal set of cooldowns to use, and healing kit is not what I'd call obscenely powerful. Wall-to-wall pulls are great; they are less great in early Realm Reborn dungeons where "wall-to-wall" can be much larger, and the kit to deal with those pulls can be much smaller.

The DPS in question proceeded to tell absolutely everyone that the white mage should kill themselves, I should let tanking remain the responsibility of people who "knew that you always pull everything", and that a brain-dead possum could do better DPS than the other DPS. (I actually remember that specific insult because, I mean, the DPS being a frothing jackass notwithstanding, it was at least a unique insult.) Then they ate the penalty to bail on the duty.

We sort of sat there for a bit like "Okay, so, that just happened." And reassured the sprout healer that, no, they did not suck, the other person was a flaming idiot. (When a new DPS showed up and went "So, uh, what happened here?" the other DPS was like "SO ANYWAY let me tell you about the guy you're replacing...")

In that case, no harm done; we reassured the one sprout, and I didn't let it magnify any minor "first time tank" tanxiety. But I can absolutely see experiences like that -- rare as they are -- spurring tanxiety among first-time tanks. So especially down in lower level content, I do make a point to let sprout tanks know that if things go wrong, folks aren't likely to be mad. Obviously, by the time you're tanking ShB or EW content, you should be over any tanxiety... but I can absolutely understand how tanxiety starts, either witnessing stuff like the fiasco I described when you're on other jobs, or if it happens in one of your own earliest tank experiences.

That's why I try very hard to make sure there's a third party type sprouts encounter: the party that encourages them to stretch a little further (like, verbally, not just by yoinking them along into more mobs), while reassuring them people won't get mad if stuff goes wrong.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

I don't understand why people have to be so impatient. You're literally wasting time in a game, so your time really can't be that valuable to start with. So why not just sit back with your coffee/tea/tasty adult beverage and let the tank do their thing? If your so uptight that somebody taking a half second longer to get things done triggers you, I question if you should even be logged in to begin with.

Big pulls, little pulls, occasional AFK - it don't matter - this healer has your back.

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When you only get an hour or two to play something, you kinda want to get as much as you can out of it. Sure, I'm wasting time playing FFXIV, but I personally don't want to waste time on being bored.

It's okay to say that big pulls are too hard, stressful or that you just can't be bothered with the effort required [in a multiplayer game]. No need to come up with excuses and "problems" that are easily resolved by playing properly.

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Originally Posted by rewd

It's okay to say that big pulls are too hard, stressful or that you just can't be bothered with the effort required [in a multiplayer game]. No need to come up with excuses and "problems" that are easily resolved by playing properly.

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Ah but you see, that would undermine their self-image that they're better than everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Scaramouche

I do my aoe rotation but I'm still nervous when tanking so I might missclick and press my tank stance without noticing.

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Easy. You realize others are taking damage, you look at your buffs and see if you have stance on; it's a quick glance and easy to press that button to solve this. It's not rocket science.

Edit: Also as mentioned; place stance button away from rotation buttons. Just like I do as a healer with the rescue button; it's faaaar away from my normal rotation bar.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

When you only get an hour or two to play something, you kinda want to get as much as you can out of it. Sure, I'm wasting time playing FFXIV, but I personally don't want to waste time on being bored.

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Like the friends sometimes say, time spent having fun is not time wasted.

Key words being having the fun.

Twenty five minutes of derping about in Dismal Darkhold is not fun...

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Originally Posted by Nestama

When you only get an hour or two to play something, you kinda want to get as much as you can out of it. Sure, I'm wasting time playing FFXIV, but I personally don't want to waste time on being bored.

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Then you run into the impasse of people who don't want to be rushed being in your group. We're all playing in the way comfortable to us so it's not like anyone is intentionally holding you back. Just don't be rude to others and expect them not to be rude to you. Sometimes you get your way sometimes you don't. If your worry is time, I feel like you're running a bigger risk of pissing your party off for rushing them without asking resulting in a wipe. Which is by that point is lost time regardless of how fast pulls were happening. Honestly, it's more common than not that the tank is on top of things and going at a decent pace, so maybe the few times someone seems intent on staying slow you can ask why or just accept it. I've been in so few roulettes where tanks don't go wall to wall that I don't really see the issue. Like, it sucks your time is limited but it isn't everyone else's responsibility to make up for that. Maybe find other ways of mitigating slow runs, because unfortunately there isn't really making an unskilled/uncomfortable person go faster if they genuinely can't. Are they just supposed to not play at all? Skip all cutscenes? Not enjoy their time because you're cramming as much as you can into a couple hours?

ETA: I still stand by what I said earlier, in the right situation and with the right attitude, the occasional playful pull is fine. Because it's just a game and it's okay to get a little loose with the script from time to time. But honestly people's attitudes are really nasty towards anyone who isn't always in line with their concept of efficiency, and it doesn't accomplish anything but making everyone, themselves included, angry.

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Originally Posted by BingleNingle

Then you run into the impasse of people who don't want to be rushed being in your group. We're all playing in the way comfortable to us so it's not like anyone is intentionally holding you back. Just don't be rude to others and expect them not to be rude to you.

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What are they doing? Reading the lore pages? How many dungeons even have lore inside dungeons? We all accepted the queue, don't queue if you can't focus on finishing what you started.

If you are playing comfortably and it's statistically inferior by a large margin and you know this you are intentionally holding the party back, just because you don't admit to it does not mean it isn't true.
Yeah you're comfortable on the floor dead, doesn't mean you're contributing.

Just agree to disagree. If people have an issue they will solve it one way or another but the excuses need to stop.

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Originally Posted by BingleNingle

Then you run into the impasse of people who don't want to be rushed being in your group.

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There is a system for this called the TRUST/Duty Support.

If you want to waste time exploring or enjoying the scenery, i suggest using it!

Don't waste other people's time in dungeons when there are alternative methods.

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Originally Posted by Byonka

I stand with this Healer!

I'm happy to slow down and sniff the roses or read the text. Some of these dungeons are beautiful, some have lots going on, if a tank or other group member wants to explore it, so be it.

(That last time I experienced this was in Ghimlyt Dark. It was a sprout tank running it for the first time pulling single packs, stopping to try and read the chat bubbles over the NPC's heads. This is Stormbloods epic finale dungeon, as healer, and partner on monk, we had no problems letting the tank take his time. A Dancer on the other hand was impatient and trying to pull extra. I can't remember how we resolved it, but eventually the Dancer got the hint that the rest of the group was ok to take it slow. )

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Please m'lady, me and the other 2 players have already smelled the roses in Doma Castle 245 times. Please just let us out of this purgatory I'm not asking for much ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

(Trusts for all dungeons couldn't come fast enough my lord).

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

We all accepted the queue, don't queue if you can't focus on finishing what you started.

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And don't queue leveling roulette or 50/60/70 if you expect an 8 minute speed run. Get FC mates or PF folks if you want a like minded run like that

The 'middle ground' here leans far more towards the 8 minute run then the (extremely rare) 20 min run anyway. Its okay to breathe a little and pet the lala on the way. the extra 90 seconds arent going to kill you.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

There is a system for this called the TRUST/Duty Support.

If you want to waste time exploring or enjoying the scenery, i suggest using it!

Don't waste other people's time in dungeons when there are alternative methods.

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This is what I've been doing ever since ShB came out. Can go at my own pace, read Trust banter/lore, etc. Exploration mode for when I feel like going to specific points to look at the scenery without the pesky mobs/bosses in the way... or undersized if the dungeons aren't in exploration mode.

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Originally Posted by DixieBellOCE

There is a system for this called the TRUST/Duty Support.

If you want to waste time exploring or enjoying the scenery, i suggest using it!

Don't waste other people's time in dungeons when there are alternative methods.

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I honestly don't have a problem with going faster. Some people do. I'm not gonna force them, nor am I gonna relegate them to bots only because some people get snippy about "their time." You aren't the only one playing and there is a default to how the game is played, so sometimes you're gonna be slowed down. Oh well!