I thought people might be exaggerating about SMN

We are a month into the expansion now. It is time to get over it.

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Originally Posted by Leigaon

Since the job is considered dead yourself and some others, what are you playing now that fills the SMN void, if anything? Just curious to see what some might move to if they feel the same way.

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Finally, lvling BLM on my main and then experience is, for me, just as it was on when trying it out on an alt where I got it to 70: boring and unengaging. And RDM, which I have at 77, is the same.

They definitely simplified things a tad too much, noth smn and mnk got decent reworks but there is for sure the feeling of something missing...

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

It was a bad experience. Players wanted Summoner - not DoT Mage. They got it and Summoner is much better off as it is now than how it was. The changes also open up a ton of expansion opportunities that the old Summoner kit wouldn't have allowed.

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"It was bad". What was bad? It didn't summon things? First off, it did, as I already said. Also I already agreed thematically speaking, it is headed in the right direction now. So really don't know what you are going on about. The dots? Just some spells that tick over time.

The changes open up opportunities for what? More summons? more interaction between abilities in game play? The fact of the matter is you have no idea what it will become. I'm basing my opinion of the game play (which has no room for personal player growth) as it is right now, in this moment. Not what it could be in the future in some magical happy place that may or may not happen. When and if they expand or change it to be something more, then we can talk about this opportunity you speak of.

Personally, Im fine with the reworked Summoner. Its fun to have a magic casting class thats very fast and mobile which is appreciated during mechanic heavy bosses where you wish you can continue your flow of dps.

However I do acknowledge people's complaints that its not "varied" enough for it to be interesting in the long run.

The way I would have it, is to incorporate elements from FFIII's Summoner where each summon had a "black magic" and "white magic" spell effect when summoned. Perhaps this is where the job gauge would be better implemented. For example during summoning phase instead of spamming the same attack button, you have a choice of either using the summon's single and AoE target "black magic" spells OR use a white magic spell that would apply small heals or buffs to the party.

After the set of uses is done then you can unleash that summon's primary skill depending on the amount of black magic and white magic spells you used (kinda like black and white mana on red mage but without the need to balance it). Example you can unleash Ifrit's usual Hellfire skill or if you focused on support, use its Healing Light skill that applies a heal to the party (using skill terminology from FFIII)

Granted this is very similar to Red Mage and perhaps needs a lot of balancing if this style of play would be applied but at least it alleviates the issue of non-variety with your summons that people arent very fond of.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Your interpretation of gameplay is purely opinion based and a minority in this instance due to far more playing Summoner now than they did in Shadowbringers. If they didn't enjoy it then they wouldn't be queueing as Summoner still. The newness coat of paint has worn off already yet they stay as Summoner.

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Hold on to that thought
Just because people are playing it now does not mean they will continue playing it. MCH saw the same surge and then experience a decline in player base in 5.x
This is essentially a new job so once the honeymoon phrase is over we will see how the entire player base will see it.

And you're right. It is opinion. Like it's my opinion that this design in gameplay is bland, uncreative and unengaging....however it is fact that it is lot easier to play, you are spamming one button more and aetherflow is even more disengaged with it's gameplay elements and have far less abilities than ever before

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

People love to bring that this SMN is good base to build upon or a good foundation, but we're talking about a LV90 job that feels like it's at base level.
Also, we have other two new jobs (Sage and Reaper) at their foundational levels that have far well designed kit in terms of complexity and gets better as you level up, while SMN stays practically the same from LV60 to LV90.

Fun fact is that they probably could have implemented all the shiny and flashy summons and their skills in the old SMN structure by getting rid of Bio, Miasma and the Pet skills. But hey, guess DELETING the old SMN and replacing it with a Braindead Mage was more easy.

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That's what I hate most about the new smn crowd. They are talking like this job is going to be build upon. The shocker is going to be real is when 7.0 rolls around and this version of smn is going to get nothing like drk, mch, and the healers did this time around.

The current rotation is locked between 2 heavy CDs, bahamut/phoenix, that you need to use one-time and gemshine spam is literally most of the filler so adding more spells isn't possible. Give us ruin5 that will never use lol

The way I see this rework is that they gave up on making summoner unique so they made it into something generic because they just couldn't. All the same problems are still there either worse, ie ghosting, or the same issues. The one thing they did fix was bahamut/phoenix staying still

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

We are a month into the expansion now. It is time to get over it.

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Funny how things repeat....

That what people said about brd/mch in 3.0
Ast changes
War in 2.0
Nin mundras ogcds


So if people are unhappy they need to complain and SE needs to hear their complaints

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Originally Posted by zcrash970

That's what hate about the new smn crowd. They are talking like this job is going to be build upon. The shocker is going to be real is when 7.0 rolls around and this version of smn is going to get nothing like drk, mch, and the healers did this time around.

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Maybe just maybe it would be a healthier idea to look at things in a more positive light rather than all doom and gloom. DRK may be in an unfortunate state but MCH is still fun and healers just got Sage and if things go well with that job then perhaps we'll see further improvements in the other healers as a result.

As for Summoner, despite the utter failings of pre-6.0 SMN they did manage to add in a new summon in Stormblood and Shadowbringers, with Endwalker revisiting the older egis and giving them new life as one-off full summons. Now that the job has something that it barely had for the past 8 years, a clear identity, the logical processes of deciding what to add to it becomes much easier.

What have people been asking for? More summons besides the original ones we got. Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva, and Alexander are all names people throw around frequently. These could come as ogcds to weave in, added gem summons post-Phoenix, and so on. They could add additional abilities to use during gem summons like Blood Pact: Ward or Blood Pact: Rage from FFXI, for all sorts of effects similar to the ideas above that draw from the White/Black Magic effects Summons had for FFIII.

In any case, I see no reason to lose hope in Summoner and I hope those other classes get revisited at some point as well. In the worst case scenario I'd just switch mains to something else if something seriously goes wrong, but for now Summoner is my go to for pretty much everything.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Maybe just maybe it would be a healthier idea to look at things in a more positive light rather than all doom and gloom. DRK may be in an unfortunate state but MCH is still fun and healers just got Sage and if things go well with that job then perhaps we'll see further improvements in the other healers as a result.

As for Summoner, despite the utter failings of pre-6.0 SMN they did manage to add in a new summon in Stormblood and Shadowbringers, with Endwalker revisiting the older egis and giving them new life as one-off full summons. Now that the job has something that it barely had for the past 8 years, a clear identity, the logical processes of deciding what to add to it becomes much easier.

What have people been asking for? More summons besides the original ones we got. Leviathan, Ramuh, Shiva, and Alexander are all names people throw around frequently. These could come as ogcds to weave in, added gem summons post-Phoenix, and so on. They could add additional abilities to use during gem summons like Blood Pact: Ward or Blood Pact: Rage from FFXI, for all sorts of effects similar to the ideas above that draw from the White/Black Magic effects Summons had for FFIII.

In any case, I see no reason to lose hope in Summoner and I hope those other classes get revisited at some point as well. In the worst case scenario I'd just switch mains to something else if something seriously goes wrong, but for now Summoner is my go to for pretty much everything.

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Wow.....you're still talking. Have you written anything worth reading yet? Looks like the answer is still no

You act like SE has a trend to revisit and add more to a job, but over the last two expansions, they have taken away more than adding to it. Ninjas unique utility and healer DPS comes immediately come to mind.
Remember they were more than ready to remove bard song buffs in 5.0 until people started complaining about it.

Like if I had reasons to be optimistic I would be but yoshi and his team doesn't deserve it

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

Fun fact is that they probably could have implemented all the shiny and flashy summons and their skills in the old SMN structure by getting rid of Bio, Miasma and the Pet skills. But hey, guess DELETING the old SMN and replacing it with a Braindead Mage was more easy.

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You say that like that the old way of shoehorning in entire new phases each expac without fixing the horrific issues that plagued the job since it released is better.
"Maybe DWT will make it less spammy. At least, ya know, as spammy but faster."
"See, Demi-Bahamut! It's like a summoner now, sometimes. Yeah, I mean, sure it's AI is just as bad Egis, breaks harder with ping, and is even more important for your DPS so it feels awful when it does break."
"Look! Phoenix! Now we tried to make it faso proof by giving you a combo in hopes that minor mistakes/dogshit AI/bad connections won't doom your damage like it does for bahamut. Huh? Fix Bahamut? Add DWT to the Demi-Bahamut? Pssh."

Also lmfao "braindead mage" when people called summoner 'ruin mage' for a very good reason for it's entire life. Summoner wasn't hard, or extremely deep. It was just annoying for the vast majority of players.

You know, at this point in time there are 2 choices: engage with the current state of affairs in a mature and healthy manner, or continue to run in circles lamenting job design that was soundly rejected by the majority. By this point in Shadowbringers? I had already hopped off Summoner and was exploring my options after I found the experience unsatisfactory.

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Originally Posted by Mika_Zahard

Fishing raid when?

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Shhhh! Before people complain fishing is to hard and they baby proof that one too

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Shhhh! Before people complain fishing is to hard and they baby proof that one too

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tbf HW had some genuinely fucked up fish to catch. Fishing is unironically in an amazing spot.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

Shhhh! Before people complain fishing is to hard and they baby proof that one too

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They already did

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Originally Posted by IdowhatIwant

We are a month into the expansion now. It is time to get over it.

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https://media.tenor.co/images/424228...5f7b/tenor.gif

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

far well designed kit in terms of complexity

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Maybe, but that's a matter of preference. Complexity is certainly not what I look for in terms of a well-designed kit. I think how the rotation flows is a preferable metric to gauge the kit design of a job, and sometimes, simplicity allows for a better flow in rotation.

I don't even care for using the current level 90 SMN kit to build upon as I think it's already good as it is. Rather, I actually worry that they would mess it up again.

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Originally Posted by Flatopia

Also lmfao "braindead mage" when people called summoner 'ruin mage' for a very good reason for it's entire life. Summoner wasn't hard, or extremely deep. It was just annoying for the vast majority of players.

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Indeed SMN was never a hard job. However it was way more deep than the current SMN, that basically plays itself.

I just hit lvl 90 on SMN the other day and I actually enjoy it. The only thing that bothers me so far is that Carby doesn't do anything anymore without you using its only two skills and that Garuda, Titan, and Ifrit don't stay out long enough for us to actually enjoy them being full-size summons now. I also think that it would've been a lot better if we had at least gotten Ramuh, Levithan, and maybe Shiva in 6.0 since we're no longer restricted to the holy trinity. That way we can cycle through during our rotation.

(i.e.) Cast Bahamut = Garuda + Titan + Ifrit = Phoenix
Cast Phoenix = Ramuh, Leviathan + Shiva = Start summon rotation over again.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Maybe, but that's a matter of preference. Complexity is certainly not what I look for in terms of a well-designed kit. I think how the rotation flows is a preferable metric to gauge the kit design of a job, and sometimes, simplicity allows for a better flow in rotation.

I don't even care for using the current level 90 SMN kit to build upon as I think it's already good as it is. Rather, I actually worry that they would mess it up again.

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It's perfectly fine and valid to enjoy simple jobs. Hell if i want to heal I just do it on WHM despite SCH being right there. The problem is deciding that making a previously complex, or at least more involved, job extremely simple to the point of being the easiest job to pickup and play is somehow a good idea. You alienate those who did enjoy the job in favor of those who only liked the name of the job. If they replaced Gunbreaker's kit with Thancred's 5 buttons I don't think many gunbreakers would be very happy about it. That's basically what happened with SMN, and there is no replacement job in the game for that.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

It's perfectly fine and valid to enjoy simple jobs. Hell if i want to heal I just do it on WHM despite SCH being right there. The problem is deciding that making a previously complex, or at least more involved, job extremely simple to the point of being the easiest job to pickup and play is somehow a good idea. You alienate those who did enjoy the job in favor of those who only liked the name of the job. If they replaced Gunbreaker's kit with Thancred's 5 buttons I don't think many gunbreakers would be very happy about it. That's basically what happened with SMN, and there is no replacement job in the game for that.

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And this post perfectly demonstrates why twisting a classic and widely beloved job like Summoner into something that it barely resembled for the past 8 years wasn't a good idea. It's given people a completely wrong image of the job combined with gameplay that was far removed from any of the other classes in game. Now that it's straightforward and on point, the people unfamiliar with its history refuse to acknowledge that.

It's not about only liking the "name" of the job its about what that name represents. Summoner represents Rydia, Yuna, Garnet, and one of the more iconic forms of magic in the entire series. It never needed to be Arithmetician, which is more what I felt I played back in Shadowbringers.

Im having a blast with new SMN. Not every job needs to be hard. It doesn't have to be hard to be fun. Stop exaggerating too, it doesn't play itself.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

Stop exaggerating too, it doesn't play itself.

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I mean https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r3T1X0OXIU

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And this post perfectly demonstrates why twisting a classic and widely beloved job like Summoner into something that it barely resembled for the past 8 years wasn't a good idea. It's given people a completely wrong image of the job combined with gameplay that was far removed from any of the other classes in game. Now that it's straightforward and on point, the people unfamiliar with its history refuse to acknowledge that.

It's not about only liking the "name" of the job its about what that name represents. Summoner represents Rydia, Yuna, Garnet, and one of the more iconic forms of magic in the entire series. It never needed to be Arithmetician, which is more what I felt I played back in Shadowbringers.

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Tell me what the name "Sage" represents then, how about "Dark Knight" or "Bard".

People always say SMN just casts a bunch of different colored ruins but they never say RDM casts a bunch of different colored jolts before its melee phase. Jolt, Fire, and Stone all do the same thing and all have the same cast time, but somehow they are all recognized as being distinctly different.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

And this post perfectly demonstrates why twisting a classic and widely beloved job like Summoner into something that it barely resembled for the past 8 years wasn't a good idea. It's given people a completely wrong image of the job combined with gameplay that was far removed from any of the other classes in game. Now that it's straightforward and on point, the people unfamiliar with its history refuse to acknowledge that.

It's not about only liking the "name" of the job its about what that name represents. Summoner represents Rydia, Yuna, Garnet, and one of the more iconic forms of magic in the entire series. It never needed to be Arithmetician, which is more what I felt I played back in Shadowbringers.

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Or, what you always and other seem to never acknowledge every time you bring up the "theme" arguement, is that players -did- enjoy the summoner class and -also- loved 14's iteration of it. To say that lump all previous versions summoner, 11 included, and then say that it now matches all of them is false. Summoners like Rydia, Yuna, and Garnet, were also your mages in their respective games. Black Mage and two White Mages. And in Garnet's respective game, she didn't even learn all of the WHM in her game; Eiko shored up the total spell list.

Just because you and others make the conscious decision to see the old SMN as some grotesque caricature of the class doesn't mean that others did not equally see it as a new, different, and unique taking fitting for the world and game that it was created in. I enjoy playing monk even though I'm not suplexing enemies like Sabin or Zell, nuking the ground with a punch and calling forth a dolphin with a Shoryuken like Tifa, or sprinting around the planet and hitting with the mother of all haymakers like Zell (all three of them staple characters of the monk class), but I still can and do enjoy 14's monk out of respect for this being both a different game and this game's version of the class.

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Originally Posted by mathias-merodach

Or, what you always and other seem to never acknowledge every time you bring up the "theme" arguement, is that players -did- enjoy the summoner class and -also- loved 14's iteration of it. To say that lump all previous versions summoner, 11 included, and then say that it now matches all of them is false. Summoners like Rydia, Yuna, and Garnet, were also your mages in their respective games. Black Mage and two White Mages. And in Garnet's respective game, she didn't even learn all of the WHM in her game; Eiko shored up the total spell list.

Just because you and others make the conscious decision to see the old SMN as some grotesque caricature of the class doesn't mean that others did not equally see it as a new, different, and unique taking fitting for the world and game that it was created in. I enjoy playing monk even though I'm not suplexing enemies like Sabin or Zell, nuking the ground with a punch and calling forth a dolphin with a Shoryuken like Tifa, or sprinting around the planet and hitting with the mother of all haymakers like Zell (all three of them staple characters of the monk class), but I still can and do enjoy 14's monk out of respect for this being both a different game and this game's version of the class.

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....now that you bring that up. I kinda want that now. Why doesnt Monk have some of those moves? Granted you do get a bit of Sabin's Blitzes in FFXIV. SE, gives us the option suplex our enemies or spawn dolphins with an uppercut!

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

I can play RDM blind. It was the only way for me to do a boss without UI (last boss of 85, the marks only appear on my screen when I have it off). That wouldn't have worked with a SMN, who doesn't have a complete autopilot rotation. And yet, and despite having a res and a heal that actually heals, RDM is still ahead in damage.

So yeah, I don't think SMN is in a bad spot gameplay-wise, I think it needs some potency buffs.

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If you seriously are trying to argue that SMN is more active than RDM, you're beyond help and there's no point in trying to argue with you.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

People always say SMN just casts a bunch of different colored ruins but they never say RDM casts a bunch of different colored jolts before its melee phase. Jolt, Fire, and Stone all do the same thing and all have the same cast time, but somehow they are all recognized as being distinctly different.

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What I think more people like is some form of reactionary gameplay as well which RDM provides through its procs, not forgetting that you're managing a resource (albiet a very easy one to manage) to get it to 40,50 and double it or just straight up 100 manually, but what I mean is that when your skills proc you can decide which you want to use, and then when it comes to melee phase you have some nice animations going off ending in your burst, while summoner is almost a full auto-pilot rotation where literally nothing changes.

I thought SMN was alright pre-patch especially as you got higher level, now it's just so boring and simplistic I gave it up almost instantly, fortunately I leveled up a BLM while doing the SMN and I still enjoy the BLM since it didn't get gutted with no weird skill changes, flashy skills and having to actually pay attention to both my mana and resource bar in order to keep my damage up and making sure no mechanics or movement sections cause my damage to completely halt making me have to setup again etc, I just wish SMN had some brain power requirement to play it.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

People always say SMN just casts a bunch of different colored ruins but they never say RDM casts a bunch of different colored jolts before its melee phase. Jolt, Fire, and Stone all do the same thing and all have the same cast time, but somehow they are all recognized as being distinctly different.

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Allow me to elucidate. Redmage's 5 basic spells all have different effects and times where they are optimal to use. You will only use Verthunder 3 and Veraero 3 when you have an instant (dual/swift cast or acceleration), you will only use Verfire or Verstone when you have a proc (from acceleration or 50% from Verthunder/aero/holy/flare), and you will only use Jolt 2 when you have none of the above. Aside from that each spell gives different amounts of each mana. These factors alone give you a decision to make just about every GCD, even when the decision is obvious. This is also ignoring other optimizations like not drifting CDs, aligning Contre-Sixte and Fleche with the GCDs you will not be casting, etc. etc. SMN will just slam out every Gemshine without any thought or nuance at all barring Ifrit, where the only thought is can I cast for 2.7-5.4~ seconds. You don't even have to worry about drifting or aligning anything because it all piles up neatly at your 2min window.

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

If you seriously are trying to argue that SMN is more active than RDM, you're beyond help and there's no point in trying to argue with you.

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Be constructive, not rude or belittling

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Originally Posted by Wilford111

Be constructive, not rude or belittling

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Just how oversensitive are you people?

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

People always say SMN just casts a bunch of different colored ruins but they never say RDM casts a bunch of different colored jolts before its melee phase. Jolt, Fire, and Stone all do the same thing and all have the same cast time, but somehow they are all recognized as being distinctly different.

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Basically, using RDM spells in a systematic way will fill a gauge that gives you access to a powerful combo, which will then start to proc other powerful spells. The difference between the "colored Jolts" is simply because they produce different effects (fills a different bar the gauge) and helps to unlock a lot of different abilities.

For SMN's "colored Ruins" you simply shoot them for raw damage and that's it.

I'm not saying SMN needs to be the same as RDM, but that SMN right now is basically reduced to "use whatever is available without consequence".

Imagine rubbing in that you have 5 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Dahlinea

"use whatever is available without consequence".

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Except you need to know the fight and think beforehead what to use, or you will stuck running around with Ifrit's 2,8 sec cooldowns or Garuda's pool, unable to cast and losing dps, if you already wasted swiftcast on something.

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Originally Posted by skooma_dealer

Except you need to know the fight and think beforehead what to use, or you will stack running around with Ifrit's 2,8 sec cooldowns or Garuda's pool, unable to cast and losing dps, if you already wasted swiftcast on something.

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A situation that happens once per fight at most.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

A situation that happens once per fight at most.

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I suggest you to try savage raids then. You will be surprised.

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Originally Posted by skooma_dealer

I suggest you to try savage raids then. You will be surprised.

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I've already tried savage+ content on new SMN and the only thing that surprised me was how little there was to do, cognitively and mechanically.

I do. Once you've resolved a mechanic without prior fuckups you know what primal phase you should be in then. And as long as your party isn't over-complicating a mechanic, like most PF parties and fourfold.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

....now that you bring that up. I kinda want that now. Why doesnt Monk have some of those moves? Granted you do get a bit of Sabin's Blitzes in FFXIV. SE, gives us the option suplex our enemies or spawn dolphins with an uppercut!

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Right!!? I wanna finish a Hades fight by hitting him in time with Echo the dolphin!

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Originally Posted by skooma_dealer

I suggest you to try savage raids then. You will be surprised.

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Pardon, but I happened to look up your character, and you seem to be doing Savage on Samurai and not Summoner. So, how exactly would you know how Summoner plays in Savage?

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Originally Posted by Darthgummibear

Nope. The job is dead. I must have gone through the skill list at least a dozen times trying to figure out what I was missing because I actually had empty slots. I honestly don't know how it went live like this.

I know people complained about the original complexity, but damn talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They went to such an extreme in the opposite direction I could almost set a metronome to the button presses. Now easily the most mind-numbingly boring job in the game.

Also it feels like physik is bugged because it says 400 potency but heals seem to be a fraction of that value.

I actually regret having leveled the job now.

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Looks up level 80 Summoner who has never downed an extreme or savage boss, u wot.