A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

While I do understand the desire for more challenging, lower player count content - regular roulette (despite being called expert roulette) will not be the place it is added. I know people don't like when other MMOs are referenced, but the early heroic dungeons in World of Warcraft's cataclysm expansion tried to bring back more challenging mechanics to its dungeon content and what happened was a tier of content that couldn't be completed by casuals, players sitting in queues for 40 minutes for a one-in-five chance of being able to clear the assigned dungeon.

The developer team has said in the past that they want dungeon content to be easily accessible to all the player base, which is a big part of why it isn't particularly challenging. The average skill level of players is surprisingly low.

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Away from a bunch of lazy players, it´s up to the game to bring a decent learning curve into the game. If a player don´t even try, why should he be able to clear something?
I would actually prefer to have 40 minutes waiting time for something challenging and fun, than running 2-3 instances braindead, double-lefthanded and blind down for NOTHING but tombstones and XP for classes i never touch again.

MMO´s have always been a "playing together" field. For example i´ve a 99% success-rate in mentor-roulette and i never left any extreme fight. I teached newcomers, i played with them and made up some strategies to bypass issues. That´s how any content should work. Ppl interact with each other, explain stuff and even wipe together to learn from their mistakes and to try new strategies. In FF14 it´s more "pull -> gg -> escape / outtahere" in 98% of all content.

Ppl just need to stop to be that selfish like "If i can´t do it alone it´s bs." or such instaquits and mimimi about everything.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's because of your gear. It's designed for item level 470 and it's easy to be 510-530 now. Consider that at the time of release, the max item level was just increasing from 500 to 530 so casual players that don't understand tomestones were still in 475 gear from the previous dungeon.

The leveling dungeons will most likely hurt a lot like the previous ones because of gear sync but I expect the max level ones will be easy like the one you mentioned because of the sync not being tight.

The fun I get out of them is in completing them faster and skipping even more of the mechanics.

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Comes a bit late but, even the "min level" runs are a joke. A healer have to heal a bit more, atleast he needs to start to heal. Tanks will pull 2-3 adds less if they really struggle that hard. That´s it. Mechanics won´t change, DPS checks are not a thing. Just lately i had tank with ~level 30 gear in Aurum Vale. It took a while, but nothing changed overall. Everything beside savage / ultimate is baby-mode.
Normal dungeons should get doubled in their difficulty. HC dungeons and normal raids should atleast be on extreme difficulty. That would be something.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

You understand that people can still enjoy a game, but wish it was better?(in their opinion of course)

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Sure. But to be so entirely negative about gameplay, not to mention the attitude toward the majority of players, really had me doubting that the poster was having any fun. At. All.

Their subsequent response didn't help that doubt. [Bold face is my own] "The whole game-market is infested by lazy ppl, who just want want want...., but actually have no clue about gaming and can´t even differentiate between good or bad games and have no clue how to play a game. They look at some graphics and animations, j... on halfnaked characters, maybe staying afk in limsa all day long to present some glam and uwu emojis...
Yes, everyone should have a chance to have fun at a game. But everyone could even have fun in a game with a little bit efford from themselves. That some ppl pay for a bit bling bling and fate grind won´t go in my mind. But if anyone wants some more depth in content and gameplay "Määääh don´t touch my braindead-mode!!!!" It´s absolutely disgusting in which direction the whole gaming industry went because of this bs."

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Sure. But to be so entirely negative about gameplay, not to mention the attitude toward the majority of players, really had me doubting that the poster was having any fun. At. All.

Their subsequent response didn't help that doubt. [Bold face is my own] "The whole game-market is infested by lazy ppl, who just want want want...., but actually have no clue about gaming and can´t even differentiate between good or bad games and have no clue how to play a game. They look at some graphics and animations, j... on halfnaked characters, maybe staying afk in limsa all day long to present some glam and uwu emojis...
Yes, everyone should have a chance to have fun at a game. But everyone could even have fun in a game with a little bit efford from themselves. That some ppl pay for a bit bling bling and fate grind won´t go in my mind. But if anyone wants some more depth in content and gameplay "Määääh don´t touch my braindead-mode!!!!" It´s absolutely disgusting in which direction the whole gaming industry went because of this bs."

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What they are saying i agree with, games in the industry are being dumbed down so the lowest common denominator so anyone can enjoy it no matter how terrible they are at the game, they can lament how game quality is dropping while also still appreciating parts of the game.

Greed is ruining the integrity of games throughout the industry, in this case SE wants to dumb down the difficulty so just anyone can play it even if it costs players any semblance of accomplishment or fun.

The only way you can come to your conclusion is if you have no respect for their intelligence since you would assume they would play a game they weren't having fun with.

There is no nuance to your assumptions, you see it as all or nothing. Meaning they can't like certain parts of the game and not like others.

What a terrible bullying mindset. You MUST be trolling.

"It´s absolutely disgusting in which direction the whole gaming industry went because of this bs."

The gaming industry's direction is directly due to the economics of publishing games. When something sells, it is held up as an example of how things should be. And, unfortunately for some of the more experienced gamers, "how things should be" isn't enough.

The option is always there to pursue the one or two game publishers who do provide more depth in content and gameplay. If they exist. Entertainment publishers do not go out of their way to make content exceedingly difficult because difficult doesn't pay the bills. Go ask Carbine Studios about Wildstar and their promise to bring back the 'hardcore' in hardcore MMOs- and their lack of business acumen, of course.

Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. In the story. In the World. In their friendships. In their time and effort and the rewards that come from playing for what seems eternity. FFXI is still up-and-running. EQ and EQ2 are still around. Heck, even Ultima Online still has a game presence. Why? Because however small the player base, someone always considers these MMOs to be Home.

Get frustrated. Sure.

Vent about it. Sure.

Start to diss on players whose capability you don't like because you think they hold your MMO hostage from better content. Not cool.

Try to figure out exactly Why you still play this game and go with that.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

What a terrible bullying mindset. You MUST be trolling.

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Pfui.

You speak of bullying, yet bandy the word "troll" like a cudgel. Your assumption is that I have no respect for another's intelligence. I want to find out why they play the game, rather than looking for something more in line with their expressed desires. The question was relevant. The response, unfortunately, from them ... was the tirade that you quoted, which doesn't answer the question.

I was interested in an actual answer from the poster. They have so far not given one.

I well know the reasons that people play MMOs, and why they might want to continue playing even though they don't like something major about the game. As I said in a subsequent post:

"Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. "

Is asking how they're invested now considered "bullying"?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

"It´s absolutely disgusting in which direction the whole gaming industry went because of this bs."

The gaming industry's direction is directly due to the economics of publishing games. When something sells, it is held up as an example of how things should be. And, unfortunately for some of the more experienced gamers, "how things should be" isn't enough.

The option is always there to pursue the one or two game publishers who do provide more depth in content and gameplay. If they exist. Entertainment publishers do not go out of their way to make content exceedingly difficult because difficult doesn't pay the bills. Go ask Carbine Studios about Wildstar and their promise to bring back the 'hardcore' in hardcore MMOs- and their lack of business acumen, of course.

Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. In the story. In the World. In their friendships. In their time and effort and the rewards that come from playing for what seems eternity. FFXI is still up-and-running. EQ and EQ2 are still around. Heck, even Ultima Online still has a game presence. Why? Because however small the player base, someone always considers these MMOs to be Home.

Get frustrated. Sure.

Vent about it. Sure.

Start to diss on players whose capability you don't like because you think they hold your MMO hostage from better content. Not cool.

Try to figure out exactly Why you still play this game and go with that.

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Once again, people can genuinely be mad that square enix is watering down their game for profits since you don't need to do mechanics in a lot fights to order to do beat them while also still enjoying parts of the game like story,music,aesthethic,housing system,etc..

Your assumptions just make you look like a clown.

Wildstar also failed for a number reasons that had nothing to do with difficulty, its end game systems (i.e., Paths)felt shallow and boring and seemed that it was more designed by committee than the result of a focused vision.

It's story was done with little chat blurbs with next to no character development. It's story was shallow and unfulfilling with cutscenes that didn't even equal to half of other games like FFXIV would have.

Also it suffered from "just enough content” syndrome that games like fallout 76 suffer from which means players would already be sick of the game and they would get scraps in updates.

The game was a complete mess in terms of design and seemed like a hardcore mmo designed by in parts by different visions of what the game should be rather than a complete vision from one director.

It's a complete misconception that wildstar failed because it was a "hardcore mmo", it failed because it was a MESS that wasn't worth the price tag of a full on mmo, it should have been free to play from the start.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Pfui.

You speak of bullying, yet bandy the word "troll" like a cudgel. Your assumption is that I have no respect for another's intelligence. I want to find out why they play the game, rather than looking for something more in line with their expressed desires. The question was relevant. The response, unfortunately, from them ... was the tirade that you quoted, which doesn't answer the question.

I was interested in an actual answer from the poster. They have so far not given one.

I well know the reasons that people play MMOs, and why they might want to continue playing even though they don't like something major about the game. As I said in a subsequent post:

"Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. "

Is asking how they're invested now considered "bullying"?

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You seem to be intent on bullying her, thats why i called you a troll and a clown since you absolutely can't be serious about any of the points you are making.

By saying things like "you don't enjoy the game at all since you want parts of it to be better" is genuinely a bad faith argument that lacks any logic.

So i called you out..... so now i am the bully?

Well even if i was(which i don't believe) i wouldn't feel bad about bullying a bully.

You genuinely make arguments that lack any substance and are based on assumption, also like all people who argue in bad faith you hide behind "authority".

Your claims as a mmo veteran somehow gives you any kind of special insight as if it had anything to do making your point stronger which it doesn't.

I have just as much experience in playing all these mmos as you do if not more, do i swing it around like a bad faith cudgel that drips with the blood of logical fallacy(Appeal to authority)?

No i do not.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

The option is always there to pursue the one or two game publishers who do provide more depth in content and gameplay. If they exist. Entertainment publishers do not go out of their way to make content exceedingly difficult because difficult doesn't pay the bills. Go ask Carbine Studios about Wildstar and their promise to bring back the 'hardcore' in hardcore MMOs- and their lack of business acumen, of course.

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As Del said, Wildstar had different issues than being "too difficult". It already began with the artstyle, which was definately not for everyone and lasted in a mess of overall design flaws. Being difficult was if anything just a side-reason.

And there are enough titles out there "which pay bills". Just have a look at the whole Dark Souls series and Sekiro. Ppl love such games, but there are still a bunch of players who´re like "ähhh too hard, pls nerf". How about practice? In kind of DS you can even use different sets and level up meanwhile Sekiro is indeed skill and reaction depended.
I do even know a bunch of casuals who played this games and finished them in their way. It took longer, but they practiced, learned and beat them.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Players continue to play MMOs because ... they're invested. In the story. In the World. In their friendships. In their time and effort and the rewards that come from playing for what seems eternity. FFXI is still up-and-running. EQ and EQ2 are still around. Heck, even Ultima Online still has a game presence. Why? Because however small the player base, someone always considers these MMOs to be Home.

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You might be invested in the story, the world and friendships. Other might have similar reasons too. But would it be a matter of difficulty to enjoy the 3 things? I guess not.

My best online-friendships have never been a result of braindead rundowns. They have become a thing, because we wiped together to difficulty encounters. We talked and interacted with each other and finally beat a sick boss. We were proud on ourthelves and moved on the way together. Not any dungeon in this game brings such a "WE" feeling to me or my friends. Not even savage, which is far more difficult, has it since the mechanics are more like "someone failed = wipe".
There are no real possibilities to play around something, to try new strategies, nothing. It´s either a rundown or a hope that everyone stay on a marker.

The world isn´t that great too. What do the most ppl do? Chilling in their houses or limsa. All 6 maps in each expansion have nothing to offer. You move from 1 spot to the next, 20 quest appear, that´s it. You only come back to grind some hunts or fates.

Call it as you want, but i´ve invested more than enough time in this game just to move on. And having more difficulty fights and variations would never be an issue. Only ppl make issues out of them like "i can´t, too hard, but i want the loot...", heck there are even ppl who pay real money for some savage / ultimate carries. How dumb can someone be???

Nobody is asking for stuff, which can only be done by 1% of the playerbase. But we ask for stuff with isn´t braindead as 98% of all the game is.
I personally know more than enough MMO first timers, ppl who´re new to games overall and mighty casuals, who found fun in savage content. They practiced, got better and finally beat atleast 3/4 fights each tier, if not all 4 before echo becomes a thing. So far yes, i call everyone who lies his ass back on braindead content and who don´t want more than "rundowns / fategrind" just a lazy person and not a gamer.

The game offers a bunch of good things, but in kind of gameplay SE needs to stop to homogenize all classes and to dumb down the content in any way. Endwalker won´t even be better. Class homogenization with different animations and dungeons where only the boss matters anymore. And ppl are like "hurray!". Of course those players don´t have any gamesense too. And how should they if they´ve never played something different or never came into the enjoyment to beat something? They live in FF14 where you get an easier option and are able to clear 98% of all content with 2 buttons. If you can´t see all the flaws a experienced MMO-player, i don´t know what else to say. If you´re really here to enjoy the world or story, i could name you some singleplayer games or even SWTOR as MMORPG which does it FAR BETTER.


And seriously, if half of the players are not even here for a real gameplay-experience, why do they even care about it? Why do you want to stay on 1-button permagrinds? Because of some bling bling or a mount? Come on... the most don´t even know if they would enjoy it and i promise, that they would as long as its not just bullet-sponging or move from A to B.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

You seem to be intent on bullying her, thats why i called you a troll and a clown since you absolutely can't be serious about any of the points you are making.

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Your internal projection of assumptions that are not inherent in my words is the problem here. I was sincere in wanting to understand what parts of this game have been enough to keep the poster engaged.

I get a tirade from you about trolling because, somehow, you can't believe anyone is serious about what they write.

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By saying things like "you don't enjoy the game at all since you want parts of it to be better" is genuinely a bad faith argument that lacks any logic.

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If you've ever seen those words in a post I've made, your are welcome to this opinion. However, I have never said this. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you are not free to make up words and arguments that I have never made.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Your internal projection of assumptions that are not inherent in my words is the problem here. I was sincere in wanting to understand what parts of this game have been enough to keep the poster engaged.

I get a tirade from you about trolling because, somehow, you can't believe anyone is serious about what they write.



If you've ever seen those words in a post I've made, your are welcome to this opinion. However, I have never said this. You are free to believe whatever you wish, but you are not free to make up words and arguments that I have never made.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Serious question: Why are you playing it? I would have moved on by now. I've tried out most MMOs created in the last 20 years, and when it doesn't satisfy, I drop it.

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This is why you fail. You are literally making assumptions about how she should move on from a game she still enjoys because you assume she doesn't like it because she wants it to be better.(in her opinion)

Don't try to manipulate me, don't talk such ROT.

P.S.: Have you heard of the high elves?

We always have two or three complicated (i'm using 'complicated' to classify instances where you can wipe) dungeons for the "story" mode
ARR: Aurum Vale and Wanderer's Palace

Heavensward: Gubal Library and Dusk Vigil

Stormblood: Ala Mhigo, Doma Castle and Ghimlyt Dark

Shadowbringers: Grand Cosmos, Heroes' Gauntlet and 3rd nier raid.


From my perspective, there is two things that determinate the difficult of a instance: your role and your gear.

When they released the first NIER raid it was hard. You could die easily in one shot against Engels, now you can handle two or even three attacks (ilvl 520-530).
Praetorium and Meridanum was harder back in the days of ARR too.



Honestly i don't see any problem. Maybe you all are just bored and want something new...as the devs already said "if that is the case, you can play something else".
I'd like to reinforce the fact that WoW started his decay when the devs listened this kind of appeal.

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Originally Posted by Elissar

We always have two or three complicated (i'm using 'complicated' to classify instances where you can wipe) dungeons for the "story" mode
ARR: Aurum Vale and Wanderer's Palace

Heavensward: Gubal Library and Dusk Vigil

Stormblood: Ala Mhigo, Doma Castle and Ghimlyt Dark

Shadowbringers: Grand Cosmos, Heroes' Gauntlet and 3rd nier raid.


From my perspective, there is two things that determinate the difficult of a instance: your role and your gear.

When they released the first NIER raid it was hard. You could die easily in one shot against Engels, now you can handle two or even three attacks (ilvl 520-530).
Praetorium and Meridanum was harder back in the days of ARR too.

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All those dungeons are far away from being hard. Nier Raid wasn´t hard too. And calling something back in the days hard, of course, might be, but we live in a world where FF14 Shadowbringers is a thing.
Yes stuff is getting easier with better gear, but "easy to laughable easy" isn´t a real difference. There is no fear... getting oneshotted by an aoe is not even a great design. We´ve hundred years of animations and casting times. If players fail, then they either suck hard or watch netflix nearby.

When ppl start a new dungeon / ally raid / normal raid and clear them by the first or atleast 2nd pull easily, then something is going completely wrong with the game, the scaling and mechanics. Any new dungeon is a rundown, while the raids cause only a wipe, when every rezzmage / healer / smn is dead. It´s lame.

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Originally Posted by Elissar

Honestly i don't see any problem. Maybe you all are just bored and want something new...as the devs already said "if that is the case, you can play something else".
I'd like to reinforce the fact that WoW started his decay when the devs listened this kind of appeal.

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Of course ppl are bored by braindead content grinds. If you´re not bored by them, then.........
Devs got lazy and you obviously can´t see that. We got less and less dungeons with each expansion. All of them are more like copy&paste with new visuals, mechanics are not really a thing. Every expansion is pretty much the same just with less content, but more grind and many dumb downs on any classes "for the balancing". It´s ridiculous.

And WoW didn´t lost players because the devs listened. The devs failed with the design in the background like the weekly blocks on 10 / 25 raids if you´ve only done one of them. Or that boss 1 is easier with 10 while the 2nd is easier with 25 ppl.
Imo, WoW lost the most players with all the casual and QoL changes, Mythic PF and other bs. That´s why Classic is so popular. It brings back some difficulty, long time achievements and the "WE".

I don't necessarily need harder dungeons. All I would like to have is that the bosses live long enough to do all their mechanics at least once. Designing several mechanics for (dungeon) bosses almost feels like it is a waste of time when after a certain time so many are being skipped.

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Originally Posted by ACE135

I don't necessarily need harder dungeons. All I would like to have is that the bosses live long enough to do all their mechanics at least once. Designing several mechanics for (dungeon) bosses almost feels like it is a waste of time when after a certain time so many are being skipped.

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Then... that's at least going to require a lower gear ceiling or higher mob (HP) scaling.

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Originally Posted by Fabbro

Agreed. Everything in this game, except for a few things like savages and extremes for example is just WAY to easy, like cellphone level of easy, like kids game easy. Please make normal and hard dungeons at least twice as hard. Also: trash mobs shouldn't exist, please make trash mobs actually require a little bit a of tactic, care to pull, and give them some dangerous AOEs, nothing boss level, but make "trash" dungeon bosses a challenge, be creative, otherwise: why bother?

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Level 80 dungeon experience as a fresh 80 now... I've reached 80 at Lakeland... yeap, leveling is that fast these days, just following MSQ. I thought this level 80 dungeon would be deadly for me to tank... So, I've pulled 1 group at a time before the 1st boss... Healer was overspeeding and didn't even heal up while the last group before the 1st boss died. I did pull 1 group at a time to check up what kind of funny skills those trashes have... none of them were there. Just simple telegraphs.


So, I just got lazy after 1st boss, which was also quite easy after checking up some YouTube video anyway, and pulled to next wall. And I didn't even bothered to avoid telegraphs... not a single problem... I believe any fresh, not tanked anything before this dungeon, person can tank those dungeons without problem.


Why did they design later expansion dungeons this simple? Then, what's the point in trash monsters? They don't even showcase next boss' skills either. Why not just drop all the corridors and maze looking parts then implement three consecutive boss fight arenas, connected by some simple player characters running cut-scenes?



What's the point of level scaling if all the trashes are so easily scraped and AOEed together? In fact, as a tank, you do not need other skills but one AOE offensive skill and a few survival/damage mitigation skills for trash pull and one single target melee skill/damage mitigation skills (could be just one with short cooldown though =_=) for the boss fight. What is the point in implementing more than 20 skills to clog up the hotbar? I believe you can reduce it to 8-10 at max, just like GW2... It's confusing.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Bard was the most popular DPS in Stormblood and has dropped to battling with Black Mage for the least popular. While Dancer inevitably played a factor in its decline. It's still a pretty sizable fall from grace.

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Bard was not popular on its own merits, it was popular because it was the only good physical ranged. MCH required far higher execution plus good ping to do.... the same raw damage, with no party utility.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Of course ppl are bored by braindead content grinds. If you´re not bored by them, then.........
Devs got lazy and you obviously can´t see that. We got less and less dungeons with each expansion. All of them are more like copy&paste with new visuals, mechanics are not really a thing. Every expansion is pretty much the same just with less content, but more grind and many dumb downs on any classes "for the balancing". It´s ridiculous.

...
Imo, WoW lost the most players with all the casual and QoL changes, Mythic PF and other bs. That´s why Classic is so popular. It brings back some difficulty, long time achievements and the "WE".

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Of course, some people are bored. Many who post on the forums about this topic have entry dates on the forum from 7+ years ago. It might be boring because, well, they have 7+ years of experience with the battle system. I'm certain that I've progressed to a point where most dungeon content is no longer difficult, regardless of the job I am currently playing.

But this poster isn't really talking about dungeon instances. They're complaining because of Raid content (as is anyone else who mentioned Nier in a post). You can tell that's their main point of interest because they mention "casual and QoL changes, Mythic PF and other bs" -- what's missing from this list of reasons for player loss? Raid content.

To be clear, as someone who spent 10 years playing that game, WoW lost out because they backfilled the major story line through books. WoW lost out because their "content" devolved into a daily grind with little or no story at all. WoW lost out because our characters were never important in the grand scheme of things. We, as characters, never did anything worthy of notice by major characters in the game. We, as characters, did not defeat the end-boss of a raid or dungeon, or even major story line battle. Some entitled NPC did. In a cutscene. Or in a book explaining how Garrosh, for example, escaped judgement and moved to another version of Draenor, while in-game we were not informed about anything other than the assumed incompetence of our leaders because, somehow, Garrosh moved to another Draenor.

As for "Classic" WoW, I played through it when it was new material in a game called World of Warcraft, without that "classic" label. Was it as difficult? Not particularly. But then I believe this poster is thinking about raids again, rather than dungeon instances.

There is one very very important Mod that Real Vanilla WoW never had that is available for Classic: Deadly Boss Mods. How difficult can it be to raid when every boss move is noted by an active mod? Talk about braindead.

As an aside: "achievements" were part of the Wrath pre-release, not available for the first 4 years of the game. How "classic" can it be if it incorporates mechanisms that were never available when the game was Real?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Of course, some people are bored. Many who post on the forums about this topic have entry dates on the forum from 7+ years ago. It might be boring because, well, they have 7+ years of experience with the battle system. I'm certain that I've progressed to a point where most dungeon content is no longer difficult, regardless of the job I am currently playing.

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Possibly. But in many cases, if the battle system had remained largely as it was in certain areas (positionals actually mattering contextually due to the frequency of boss positionals, tanks actually needing to manage arena space, the harder among melee and especially immobile casters having proportionally higher throughput ceilings, physical ranged either having higher skill ceilings or a real contextual purpose for their hypermobility, etc), we'd also be happier.

There's much that isn't dull just because it's "more of the same." Much has grown dull specifically because it has less depth or commensurate reward.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Of course, some people are bored. Many who post on the forums about this topic have entry dates on the forum from 7+ years ago. It might be boring because, well, they have 7+ years of experience with the battle system. I'm certain that I've progressed to a point where most dungeon content is no longer difficult, regardless of the job I am currently playing.

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The playtime doesn´t matter for the most players, who´re bored at this game. Ppl who´re new to MMORPG´s might have some trouble first as much as those who sit on their PS4/5, which have never played something else than singeplayer FF games. Whoever doesn´t fall under both categories but still fails in dungeons and is like "Oh soooo cool!", is either 5 years old, disabled or really really bad at gaming perse. Sadly i still meet ppl who don´t even read their class - skills or healers who prefer to jump around when i´m full-health as tank instead of doing damage. But that they´ve time for such stuff or that such ppl are able to clear any content but savage says enough i guess.

I can only speak for myself and as i´ve written somewhere else, i get used to everything pretty quickly. I don´t need 7 years to be good at a game like FF14. This game has become easier and easier. The current content and class-designs are NOT "casual", they´re "braindead"!
It´s not only the difficulty, it´s the whole design. Running from A to B, no debuffs, just strict AOE patterns, classes have less possibilities, tanks and healer can easy solo dungeons, DPS are just there to save us time, etc....There is no variety, nothing which puts pressure on the player, nothing where players can grow at.
E8s has been the only fight the whole expansion and for ages, which brought more than "running from A to B" to the table. You got even rewarded for playing the addphase (DPS check) perfectly fine and you had the possibility to swap within the 2 teams if 1 side has some trouble. Just small things, but they mean a lot. Even the add-kiting in E7s was actually something especially for tanks.

Pretty much everything else in this game just got stale and copy & paste. I´ve a bunch of hours in this game, but i do have a bunch of hours in other games with much less content too. So how?! Because they´ve an attracting gameplay. That´s even the whole reason why roque-like / roque-lite games are so popular these days. Interesting gameplay, unique classes and variety, stuff SE has thrown away since the release of SB.

I´ve enough games with 1000h+ or multiple playthroughs because of it and i never got bored to play them again and again. Just for example:

- League of Legends - says enough?
- Warhammer Vermintide 1+2 - repetitive PvE gameplay, but insane gameplay
- Hunt Showdown - PvPvE Shooter with insane gameplay and atmosphere
- Kotor 1 & 2 - Just top rated RPG´s with an awesome story
- SWTOR / Tera / BDO - MMORPG´s with unique worlds, systems and gameplay
- ... the list goes on

FF14 has so much potential, but so many ppl out there just hinder it to grow with their lazyness and ignorance to learn. And SE just caters such ppl with more and more dumbdowns, which don´t even help them.

And for real, what´s the point of dungeons in endwalker, when only bosses matter? Why do we have long hallways and adds?
And do you know how the current dungeons / raids are for such "bad players"? It´s nothing but bullet-sponging. They spend like 45mins in 1 dungeon, maybe even more, just to spam 1 1 1 1 1 on an add for ages. Maybe they do even die 10 times to a boss aoe or something. So how?! How can this be fun for any kind of player?
And as last, yes, i meet a bunch of those players in mentor-roulette. But guess what? Those aren´t newcomers who´re willing to learn or the WoW players. Those are players with multiple classes on 80, maybe even a mentor-sign by themselves. Such kind of players don´t understand the game and shouldn´t be catered, seriously.


FF14 has a lot to offer, but in kind of gameplay, homogenized classes and "copy & paste", it has become one of the worst games i´ve ever played and that´s not because of my playtime, it happened because of bad player voices and SE´s decision-making and lazyness. Yoshi should give his "child" to someone visioniary with fresh ideas and who doesn´t stuck in the past for 10 years. Such noobs play the game for other things than gameplay anyway, so there is no need to cater everyone else with braindead content and dumbdowns on classes again and again.

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

While I do understand the desire for more challenging, lower player count content - regular roulette (despite being called expert roulette) will not be the place it is added. I know people don't like when other MMOs are referenced, but the early heroic dungeons in World of Warcraft's cataclysm expansion tried to bring back more challenging mechanics to its dungeon content and what happened was a tier of content that couldn't be completed by casuals, players sitting in queues for 40 minutes for a one-in-five chance of being able to clear the assigned dungeon.

The developer team has said in the past that they want dungeon content to be easily accessible to all the player base, which is a big part of why it isn't particularly challenging. The average skill level of players is surprisingly low.

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God I miss that time in Cata when dungeons were an actual challenge. The 1st tier of cata was probably the most fun I had in the game.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

I was watching Preach talk about how he is enjoying the <50 dungeons because they have all these little extra mechanics to do and side areas to explore and discover and how he was excited to see how it would improve. And all I could think was how sad I was because all they did was remove those nice little extra things in favour of making a big corridor of trash boss trash boss trash boss. Because people seemingly couldn't deal with taking a wrong turn on their first run I guess? Shame. I wish they would bring back the exploring to dungeons. Because as they stand now they are just so linear and dull. The story they are in, what you see is all nice sure. But I would like to actually have something to discover, to get lost and find my way etc. FFXIV really doesn't have much in the way of exploring at all honestly and it's sad.

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Hmmm So I'm a new player. I'm close to finishing HW and I gotta say...HW seems a lot easier than ARR. Are you saying SB and ShB is going to be even more braindead easy? I was thinking that the dungeons and trials would "progress" overtime and expect the player to have gotten better at playing, introduce new mechanics, etc.

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Originally Posted by Nuttymiked

Hmmm So I'm a new player. I'm close to finishing HW and I gotta say...HW seems a lot easier than ARR. Are you saying SB and ShB is going to be even more braindead easy? I was thinking that the dungeons and trials would "progress" overtime and expect the player to have gotten better at playing, introduce new mechanics, etc.

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StB dungeons have some gems (parts of Bartam of Doma Castle, especially).

ShB dungeons... well, I can't honestly say they're an improvement, especially over the likes of the Vault's bosses or the originality among some others.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

StB dungeons have some gems (parts of Bartam of Doma Castle, especially).

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Don´t know what´s special about Doma. Bardam is special yes, but it´s no improvement or challenging. Just wall to wall bang and an "afk" boss. Nice puzzle-feature, but shouldn´t be a boss.

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Originally Posted by Nuttymiked

Hmmm So I'm a new player. I'm close to finishing HW and I gotta say...HW seems a lot easier than ARR. Are you saying SB and ShB is going to be even more braindead easy? I was thinking that the dungeons and trials would "progress" overtime and expect the player to have gotten better at playing, introduce new mechanics, etc.

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Stuff is definately getting more braindead. Away from dungeons there are only like 2 fights in the whole SHB expansion and 1 in SB which are more than the usual stuff. One is an extreme fight and the other a savage one. The rest is just more of the same. Dungeons have become even more braindead especially with more tools on any class, which mostly last in "fill the gauge with 123, press the button, enjoy the burst".

Gameplay-wise ARR is far superior than anything beyond. Devs care more about glam and a braindead mode, so any idiot will cash into the game, just to see some half-naked bunnies or cats running around. More than enough changes has shown that visuals are way more important than the gameplay and content.

Dungeon design needs to change for better gameplay.

Hope they nerf HP sponges like the bosses in Malikahs Well, you can be 15-20min at just the first boss if something goes wrong with your party. Or change how mobs spawn when you can literally see them already like in Holmister Switch when they are on the ground but only spawn one set after the other... I rather wait 1min before pull to discuss a strategy if it would be difficult or to wait for MP regeneration of your healer than to kill 5 sets of 3 mobs in row the very same way.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Can we PLEASE not get undertuned dungeons anymore? Matoyas Relict comes to mind. This is just, in my opinion, incredibly boring. Everything dies pretty much immediately and there isn't any serious risk. That's all.

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While I would welcome difficulty in dungeons, they've moved on from being a challenge to overcome to being set pieces for story progression and nothing more. There's very few optional dungeons found in SB and even less in ShB.
So I don't think we're going to see any regression of change, sadly.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Don´t know what´s special about Doma. Bardam is special yes, but it´s no improvement or challenging. Just wall to wall bang and an "afk" boss. Nice puzzle-feature, but shouldn´t be a boss.

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It's mostly just that certain wall-to-wall pulls in those two at least have some degree of challenge, and the vibes of each place make what would otherwise feel like more of the same feel just distinct enough to be more bearable. CA's got some just-distinct-enough pulls, too.

For context, my idea of a particularly fun dungeon would still be something like Castrum Meridanium Extreme where there'd be no CSs or Cid to wait on, multiple routes by which to achieve your objectives, notable manipulation of the pathing of otherwise overwhelming forces, some reason to split the party at certain points, etc., so it's not as if I'm satisfied by any of the above dungeons; they're just better, imo, than any of the Shadowbringers ones apart from perhaps Qitana Ravel.