Dungeons are becoming style over substance.

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Envoyé par Kaurhz

Before: Please give more creative dungeons with some difficult mechanics.

After: OMG stop giving me this dungeon it takes too long and people can't do it.

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Almost sounds like different ppl like different things ! Incredible isn't it ?
And if something really difficult comes out, this is not something you'll do with pugs anyway.

Yeah, while I would love more variety with dungeons. Devs do have a point, a lot of people end up choosing the easiest dungeon to farm and would be more likely to bail on longer/harder dungeons. If anything they should add a dungeon or 2 to Unreal, make them more difficult or just change up the mechanics, wouldnt mind something like that.

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Envoyé par Izscha

Almost sounds like different ppl like different things ! Incredible isn't it ?
And if something really difficult comes out, this is not something you'll do with pugs anyway.

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Ohh well done. Except I don't think many people will be excited to do a dungeon which would be inconvenient when their concern is a roulette which they want to get out of quickly. That's just how it is. It'll only serve to compound the issue of people leaving or AFK'n after not getting what they want.

People have already done it with normal Steps of Faith (Not a dungeon I know) and because it was highly inconvenient with a good chance of a wipe. Same thing with Shinryu actually from my experience. Heck, people still sigh and on occasion leave when they get Aurum Vale.

Sure, it'll be a nice initial experience, as it always is, but when you just want to do your routine activities, historically people will always want the quickest and easiest.

I only need to look at the incessant whining about how some people are 'underperforming' at the game, both here and on Reddit to see why this wouldn't be a good idea.

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Envoyé par Kaurhz

Ohh well done. Except I don't think many people will be excited to do a dungeon which would be inconvenient when their concern is a roulette which they want to get out of quickly. That's just how it is. It'll only serve to compound the issue of people leaving or AFK'n after not getting what they want.

People have already done it with normal Steps of Faith (Not a dungeon I know) and because it was highly inconvenient with a good chance of a wipe. Same thing with Shinryu actually from my experience. Heck, people still sigh and on occasion leave when they get Aurum Vale.

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Some dungeons are way more boring than others no one will deny that, and some do have greater chance to fail too especially old ones.
That being said what i do read there is not that regular dungeons must change, nor the ones in the roulette, but that we get dungeons on the side that are challenging and actually worth something which is something that do not exist rn.
THey can do the regular "one way w2w easy mecanics" stuff as usual, but like making 1-2 that got a hard mode ( a real one, not that joke of putting hard out of nowhere and it doesn't change anything ) that gives correct reward.
Especially when they really did reduced the numbers of dungeons per patch over the years.
Steps of faith lmao i have vietnam like flashback just to think about this one, must be the worst trial ever.

I personally miss a variety of dungeons for exp daily rou and loved the ARR dungeons and how Scholar was (gimme back leeches) but things have moved on from the gameplay that I preferred personally and I have accepted it. I don’t have any answers on how this could be addressed and balanced.

I think someone mentioned about a hard mode and easy mode of dungeons or with some different elements of exploration. To me this begs the question of the dev teams, designers etc experiment though interaction with the community. So if we had a hard/easy mode of a dungeon then try it in a patch cycle and gather the analytics over time to see if people do it and drive choices for design? I suspect they use insights anyway into gameplay and how people do content and this informs decision making but just we don’t see the data. Maybe they do this anyway? There must be a balance for the different player types.

I am a grind monkey I loved this in EQ/EQ2 and wasn’t a fan of eureka or Bozja, having to do Bozja to progress my relic irritated me personally. Now for most people this would be an idea of hell but gimme a grind fest and that different type of challenge of 24 man 2000 times and I would do it as it brings me satisfaction.

TLDR: Use data insights to drive design of content for this issue with easy/hard with the added community interaction.

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Envoyé par Izscha

Some dungeons are way more boring than others no one will deny that, and some do have greater chance to fail too especially old ones.
That being said what i do read there is not that regular dungeons must change, nor the ones in the roulette, but that we get dungeons on the side that are challenging and actually worth something which is something that do not exist rn.
THey can do the regular "one way w2w easy mecanics" stuff as usual, but like making 1-2 that got a hard mode ( a real one, not that joke of putting hard out of nowhere and it doesn't change anything ) that gives correct reward.
Especially when they really did reduced the numbers of dungeons per patch over the years.
Steps of faith lmao i have vietnam like flashback just to think about this one, must be the worst trial ever.

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Yes that's my point and they're boring for a bulk of people simply because they're inconvenient to do when your concern is just a quick in and out. If you're running content with random people then yeah there is always a risk factor for wiping and that's the issue when people only want to run it as a chore.

Now this is a fair argument, just don't lock it in the same heap as regular roulettes. But let's face it what rewards would you really put behind it, and besides development is a finite resource. Something like this if it it separate of the whole routine stuff will always come at the expense of something else. Be it outright cuts, or just cutting corners. - I'm not saying the game is perfect as is, but my argument is just simply in a lot of cases the community doesn't know what it wants half the time, or the consequences of what they ask for that matter.

Heck, if I were being frank I would rather they just reintroduce PotD, give it more rewards, including regular gear updates, and then just have the 'difficulty' scale in accordance with the number of people in it.

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Envoyé par Kaurhz

Yes that's my point and they're boring for a bulk of people simply because they're inconvenient to do when your concern is just a quick in and out. If you're running content with random people then yeah there is always a risk factor for wiping and that's the issue when people only want to run it as a chore.

Now this is a fair argument, just don't lock it in the same heap as regular roulettes. But let's face it what rewards would you really put behind it, and besides development is a finite resource. Something like this if it it separate of the whole routine stuff will always come at the expense of something else. Be it outright cuts, or just cutting corners. - I'm not saying the game is perfect as is, but my argument is just simply in a lot of cases the community doesn't know what it wants half the time, or the consequences of what they ask for that matter.

Heck, if I were being frank I would rather they just reintroduce PotD, give it more rewards, including regular gear updates, and then just have the 'difficulty' scale in accordance with the number of people in it.

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Ppl are used to dungeons and roulette being like that, and nothing in roulettes are hard stuff anyway ( The only thing that could be considered hard is the mentor roulette with extremes, but that's not the average stuff that ppl do anyway ) so if a hard version of it must come out, it will stay out of roulette for sure.
And i do agree with you on that, but that's the thing with community we're not some sort of hive minds that wants the same things all the time.
It may seems like the community do want something and the opposite at the same time, but that's just ppl wanting different stuff while being in the same community, being FF 14 players nothing more that's the only thing that do connect us at some point, but each person want their own stuff.
If it was up to me i would never waste time and ressources in housing / male viera or sh*t like that, and focus on the gameplay and make it better than it is today, same for content or mecanics.
Others wants the exact opposite and we're both FF 14 players so yeah you'll often see ppl wanting one thing, and others not wanting it.

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Envoyé par Izscha

The only thing that could be considered hard is the mentor roulette with extremes, but that's not the average stuff that ppl do anyway

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An extra mentor roulette just for extreme trials would be nice tbh. Maybe the ability to duo it with another mentor. Would prefer it over a long dungeon

I really am curious when they said they got rid of some expert dungeons so they could focus on the ones they did give us what they meant. Like…what was the sacrifice for? Cuz all we got were streamlined dungeons and again, reused gear. So why did we lost some expert dungeons again?

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Envoyé par Izscha

we get dungeons on the side

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Given that we've decreased the number of dungeons over time, if they do add challenging light party content, it might have to be its own side content that would compete with deep dungeon or something like that.

Now, Yoshida seemed to have hinted at something during the media tour interviews, so we might see if he has something to announce after 6.0. That said, he had also hinted at deep dungeon for Endwalker, so it might just be that.

Either way, it would not be something that cannibalize the use of dungeons today, so it probably wouldn't be anything like Mythic+ is for WoW (as one form of endgame progression).

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Envoyé par KizuyaKatogami

I really am curious when they said they got rid of some expert dungeons so they could focus on the ones they did give us what they meant. Like…what was the sacrifice for? Cuz all we got were streamlined dungeons and again, reused gear. So why did we lost some expert dungeons again?

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We get new PvE content with the relic and BLU.

We also get TRUST, which might mean more effort to design a dungeon.

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Envoyé par linayar

We get new PvE content with the relic and BLU.

We also get TRUST, which might mean more effort to design a dungeon.

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They didn’t say it in regards to relic or blu though. They specifically said reducing the number of overall expert dungeons would be to put more effort in to the ones we would be getting, yet i don’t see much of a difference from sb dungeons to post patch shb expert dungeons. Especially considering sb gave us the extra dungeons even whilst giving us Blu mage and Eureka relic stuff.

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Envoyé par KizuyaKatogami

They didn’t say it in regards to relic or blu though. They specifically said reducing the number of overall expert dungeons would be to put more effort in to the ones we would be getting, yet i don’t see much of a difference from sb dungeons to post patch shb expert dungeons. Especially considering sb gave us the extra dungeons even whilst giving us Blu mage and Eureka relic stuff.

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Then it must be the TRUST. Stormblood already had reduced dungeons from Heavensward.

But I'm also pretty sure they said their focus was also on other content. So it's not just about focusing on the dungeons.

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Envoyé par linayar

Then it must be the TRUST. Stormblood already had reduced dungeons from Heavensward.

But I'm also pretty sure they said their focus was also on other content. So it's not just about focusing on the dungeons.

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So we lost extra dungeons from SB to ShB for….reworked squadrons? Interesting to know.

I disliked Shadowbringer dungeons. I pretty much avoided Expert and 80 Roulette for a good year.

That said I agree. The dungeons have become higher quality in appearance but I dislike the trajectory and flow of how they are played.

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Envoyé par KizuyaKatogami

So we lost extra dungeons from SB to ShB for….reworked squadrons? Interesting to know.

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Honestly, it's a positive tradeoff for me.

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Envoyé par linayar

Honestly, it's a positive tradeoff for me.

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What. How?

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Envoyé par Velnora

What. How?

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While I don't like that there are only two dungeons in Expert roulette, it's a small price to pay to be able to run TRUST whenever I want. At the end of the day, I would be running Expert so many times that it does not make a difference if there is only two or three.

That said, if they combine Expert with level 80 (soon to be level 90) dungeons, that'd be great.

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Envoyé par linayar

While I don't like that there are only two dungeons in Expert roulette, it's a small price to pay to be able to run TRUST whenever I want. At the end of the day, I would be running Expert so many times that it does not make a difference if there is only two or three.

That said, if they combine Expert with level 80 (soon to be level 90) dungeons, that'd be great.

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A reduction of content in exchange to slowly do it by yourself, at a far slower pace. That's no "small price".

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Envoyé par Velnora

A reduction of content in exchange to slowly do it by yourself, at a far slower pace. That's no "small price".

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It's not a reduction in content to me as I'd be doing the same thing regardless how many dungeons there are: one expert roulette a day. TRUST gives me an alternative method to run content.

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Envoyé par linayar

It's not a reduction in content to me as I'd be doing the same thing regardless how many dungeons there are: one expert roulette a day. TRUST gives me an alternative method to run content.

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Can you elaborate what you like about trusts?

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Envoyé par linayar

It's not a reduction in content to me as I'd be doing the same thing regardless how many dungeons there are: one expert roulette a day. TRUST gives me an alternative method to run content.

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Does not matter if you relegate yourself to one roulette a day. It is still objectively, a reduction in content.

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Envoyé par Shin96

Can you elaborate what you like about trusts?

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That I can do it solo.

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Envoyé par Velnora

Does not matter if you relegate yourself to one roulette a day. It is still objectively, a reduction in content.

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Yeah, and I'm saying the benefit of TRUST for me outweighs that small reduction of content since the way that content is run makes the number of dungeons irrelevant beyond the initial story unlock.

No, it's only a 'reduction in content' when viewed strictly from the bias perspective of a specific content scope. "We have less dungeons." This is a long tired, dead argument that's been disproven time and time again. There's a limited amount of production time and manpower than can be done within a span of time. Ignoring the rather glaring external factors that have affected nearly every major production out there - FFXIV has actually done quite well in distributing content throughout its various scope to be sure that each has not been neglected, while still being able to produce new content for various sources. And they've had to resort to using tricks to do so as well.

So unless you literally have the timetables of effort/production in your hands from SE staff, kindly don't speak of an industry you have no remote understanding of.

And if you're still itching for combat content, go back and fully explore Bozja/Zandor. That's where a LOT of combat effort went and it produced some rather quality pieces. (Even if it's not my personal preference.) The one thing we objectively lost was an Ultimate -that was announced lost to prevent the delay in Endwalker from being worse than it has been.

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Envoyé par linayar

That I can do it solo.

Yeah, and I'm saying the benefit of TRUST for me outweighs that small reduction of content since the way that content is run makes the number of dungeons irrelevant beyond the initial story unlock.

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Right. The way it's ran is poorly designed. You don't run it for the content. You run it for the bribe.

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Envoyé par Hyrist

No, it's only a 'reduction in content' when viewed strictly from the bias perspective of a specific content scope. "We have less dungeons." This is a long tired, dead argument that's been disproven time and time again. There's a limited amount of production time and manpower than can be done within a span of time. Ignoring the rather glaring external factors that have affected nearly every major production out there - FFXIV has actually done quite well in distributing content throughout its various scope to be sure that each has not been neglected, while still being able to produce new content for various sources. And they've had to resort to using tricks to do so as well.

So unless you literally have the timetables of effort/production in your hands from SE staff, kindly don't speak of an industry you have no remote understanding of.

And if you're still itching for combat content, go back and fully explore Bozja/Zandor. That's where a LOT of combat effort went and it produced some rather quality pieces. (Even if it's not my personal preference.) The one thing we objectively lost was an Ultimate -that was announced lost to prevent the delay in Endwalker from being worse than it has been.

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It hasn't been "disproven". Are you really going to partially blame COVID for this? Considering this started before COVID was a thing, that excuse doesn't work. "That's where a LOT of combat effort went and it produced some rather quality pieces". A bunch of glorified FATES, oh joy.

The game has only grown in playerbase, and the excuse is always "resources". Sorry, if that is the issue, they really need to reassess how they do things. It's amazing how in Stormblood, we had 4 zones of Eureka and BA, along with more dungeons. This is also a thread on dungeons, so yes, it will have a specific content scope.

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Envoyé par Hyrist

No, it's only a 'reduction in content' when viewed strictly from the bias perspective of a specific content scope. "We have less dungeons." This is a long tired, dead argument .

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You're telling me but it's the poster child for those wanting to bash SE for it's content decisions. Personally I rarely run dungeons other than the initial main story unlocks which I usually do with a Trust and then do the Trials in DF.

i don't do expert roulette to cap because tome farming is better done with hunts they're faster, the rewards are better and you can cap a character in less than 2 hours with back to back to back A Trains hunts.

All dungeons play the same. I would gladly trade off less dungeons for higher quality ones any day. I just wish they would keep expert roulette to all max level dungeons and not just a few of them at a time.

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Envoyé par Velnora

It hasn't been "disproven". Are you really going to partially blame COVID for this? Considering this started before COVID was a thing, that excuse doesn't work. "That's where a LOT of combat effort went and it produced some rather quality pieces". A bunch of glorified FATES, oh joy.

The game has only grown in playerbase, and the excuse is always "resources". Sorry, if that is the issue, they really need to reassess how they do things. It's amazing how in Stormblood, we had 4 zones of Eureka and BA, along with more dungeons.

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Yeah and those 'over glorified' fates as you so eloquently put it have had enemies easily equivalent to dungeon bosses, and that is in reference to the critical engagements, and let's not forget the introduction of the 1vs1 encounters. If you want to dismiss content as over glorified FATEs then a crux of your argument for content in Stormblood probably shouldn't be 4 zones of Eureka. - If you ask me the mere fact Eureka was 4 zones, with the prime development between Anemos and Pagos being the inclusion of Warped Lockboxes and Bunny FATEs was quite a waste of development. Their real innovator with Eureka didn't even come until the inclusion of Logos in Pyros.

Then we have Delubrum Reginae (inc. Savage), the first attempt at a large scale savage raid encounter which to my knowledge was a fairly well requested feature, and then we come onto Castrum Lacus Litore and Dalriada, which in their own right are arguably equivalent to the large scale raids we get (inc. Baldesion's Arsenal)

I do sense some irony though in that quite a few people would arguably take the stampede of criticising the content for the lack of attempt at innovation had the retained their same routine of dungeon creation.

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Envoyé par Kaurhz

Yeah and those 'over glorified' fates as you so eloquently put it have had enemies easily equivalent to dungeon bosses, and that is in reference to the critical engagements, and let's not forget the introduction of the 1vs1 encounters. If you want to dismiss content as over glorified FATEs then a crux of your argument for content in Stormblood probably shouldn't be 4 zones of Eureka. - If you ask me the mere fact Eureka was 4 zones, with the prime development between Anemos and Pagos being the inclusion of Warped Lockboxes and Bunny FATEs was quite a waste of development. Their real innovator with Eureka didn't even come until the inclusion of Logos in Pyros.

Then we have Delubrum Reginae (inc. Savage), the first attempt at a large scale savage raid encounter which to my knowledge was a fairly well requested feature, and then we come onto Castrum Lacus Litore and Dalriada, which in their own right are arguably equivalent to the large scale raids we get (inc. Baldesion's Arsenal)

I do sense some irony though in that quite a few people would arguably take the stampede of criticising the content for the lack of attempt at innovation had the retained their same routine of dungeon creation.

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That isn't the crux of my argument.

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Envoyé par Velnora

That isn't the crux of my argument.

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Like I said, A crux, not the crux, implying your argument had multiple cruxes to it, each of which I addressed. Plus if anything I think Bozja is an exemplary example of what they could do with open world if they tried and to be quite frank I think it'd be a failure not to try and make that the norm for open world. - I don't necessarily disagree with your point about resources though, given the surge of player growth, more resources would be nice. But they've definitely not been slacking on the content part, especially when you take into account Ocean Fishing and Ishgard Restoration. Aside from the delayed Ultimate.

They've just simply poured those resources elsewhere, which to be frank I would much prefer they attempt to do that and release fresh content, versus just maintaining content schedule for the sake of it.

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Envoyé par Kaurhz

Like I said, A crux, not the crux, implying your argument had multiple cruxes to it, each of which I addressed. Plus if anything I think Bozja is an exemplary example of what they could do with open world if they tried and to be quite frank I think it'd be a failure not to try and make that the norm for open world. - I don't necessarily disagree with your point about resources though, given the surge of player growth, more resources would be nice. But they've definitely not been slacking on the content part, especially when you take into account Ocean Fishing and Ishgard Restoration. Aside from the delayed Ultimate.

They've just simply poured those resources elsewhere, which to be frank I would much prefer they attempt to do that and release fresh content, versus just maintaining content schedule for the sake of it.

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It was never a crux to begin with. That was in response to someone bringing up said content, as a "whataboutism". This thread is regarding dungeons. Not Bozja, not Ishgard, not ocean fishing. These false ultimatums are stupid, and serve as nothing but to act as vessels for SE apologists.

"versus just maintaining content schedule for the sake of it."
That's part of the issue.

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Envoyé par Velnora

It was never a crux to begin with. That was in response to someone bringing up said content, as a "whataboutism". This thread is regarding dungeons. Not Bozja, not Ishgard, not ocean fishing. These false ultimatums are stupid, and serve as nothing but to act as vessels for SE apologists.

"versus just maintaining content schedule for the sake of it."
That's part of the issue.

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and I merely disagreed with the points you were making in your response, I'm well aware of what this discussion is about, and taking into account I see a recurrence of the 'content cut / less dungeons' argument I'm going to beg to differ, and as I said those cuts have just been poured elsewhere and complaining that it was poured elsewhere just has the potential to strifle innovation in fear that people will moan cuz "Muh dungeons"

This has nothing to do with apologists either, I would argue people are just getting tired of this self-same 'less dungeons / less content argument whilst subsequently practically ignoring every other piece of content they've added instead. People complaining or stating the decrease in number of dungeons whilst failing to ignore what Bozja actually expanded on in terms of combat content is just a strange notion to me which arguably more than sufficed for those decrease in dungeons.

Without even looking I can already feel a argument between those who simply don’t care or like the content as is and want it to remain stagnate, and those that see potential in it and want the concept or instances to be expanded on.

I’ve argued this for 2 expansions straight and it’s literally gotten worse over time. From “gee these mechanics are predictable” to “Gee I felt nothing doing this as a DPS” to such a degree not even Minilv can make it better with how few mechanics are in them, how undertuned they are and how little tank and DPS responsibility is given. I did Solm and a DPS had to drop a meteor, crazy concept but when was the last time a DPS had any engagement besides spam a aoe? It’s even more odd cuz the leveling between expansions is ok Mt Gulg and Qitana Raval were nice and it’s getting to a point where some early ARR instances are proving to be superior than the 80s with only Amourat being a clear stand out the very first one

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Envoyé par Kaurhz

and I merely disagreed with the points you were making in your response, I'm well aware of what this discussion is about, and taking into account I see a recurrence of the 'content cut / less dungeons' argument I'm going to beg to differ, and as I said those cuts have just been poured elsewhere and complaining that it was poured elsewhere just has the potential to strifle innovation in fear that people will moan cuz "Muh dungeons"

This has nothing to do with apologists either, I would argue people are just getting tired of this self-same 'less dungeons / less content argument whilst subsequently practically ignoring every other piece of content they've added instead. People complaining or stating the decrease in number of dungeons whilst failing to ignore what Bozja actually expanded on in terms of combat content is just a strange notion to me which arguably more than sufficed for those decrease in dungeons.

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The initial argument was not even less dungeons; it was over the quality of said dungeons. People are getting tired over the absolute shit state of dungeons.

Ah the content talk. Need i remind everyone that SB was able to deliver us more dungeons than shb whilst also not cutting out on deep dungeon,allied beast tribe quests, and hildibrand quests? Not to mention giving us an entire housing district and FOUR eureka zones as opposed to the 2 bozjan zones we got. Sure, we got 3 raids out of bozja, but does that really equate to the loss of dungeons and deep dungeon bosses we got? ShB expert dungeons are really not any better than sb expert dungeons and yet theyre fewer in number. Please someone blame covid for this because i can go on about the things that were missing long before covid was a thing as ive kept keen track of it all.

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Envoyé par Hyrist

So unless you literally have the timetables of effort/production in your hands from SE staff, kindly don't speak of an industry you have no remote understanding of.

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Ill speak about it as much as i want. I pay a sub, i can criticize and point out problems as much as i see fit, although i know thats a very foreign thing to do when it comes to this game.

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Envoyé par Hyrist

No, it's only a 'reduction in content' when viewed strictly from the bias perspective of a specific content scope. "We have less dungeons." This is a long tired, dead argument that's been disproven time and time again.

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It's been deboonked. We really got lots of content!

Just don't notice we have less dungeons, which means one dungeon in expert roulette will be there for 7+ months. Matoya's has been in circulation since December 2020.

Oh and don't pay attention to no Deep Dungeon. It's not like that's content that people really like or anything.

Forget that Bozja and Zadnor are two really ugly and plain zones that look like an unfinished terrain map, versus what we got in Eureka.

Never you mind that we didn't get a completion quest for beast tribes, nor did we get Hildy.

I stand around my house or in cities because there's just so much content to do.

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Envoyé par Bacent

Would like some mechanics where the 4 players are split up to do a small puzzle or something and can only get to the boss when all 4 players do what's needed. Or have some sneak off during a boss fight to trigger something/ect.

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This will never happen outside of something like Savages. SE is too scared to put any responsibilities on any one player during a dungeon (outside of their role) for fear of them messing up and people getting angry at them.

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Envoyé par FrogDog

It's been deboonked. We really got lots of content!

Just don't notice we have less dungeons, which means one dungeon in expert roulette will be there for 7+ months. Matoya's has been in circulation since December 2020.

Oh and don't pay attention to no Deep Dungeon. It's not like that's content that people really like or anything.

Forget that Bozja and Zadnor are two really ugly and plain zones that look like an unfinished terrain map, versus what we got in Eureka.

Never you mind that we didn't get a completion quest for beast tribes, nor did we get Hildy.

I stand around my house or in cities because there's just so much content to do.

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This is the part that always makes me lol. People claim there is so much content, yet if they aren't in an instance, they are just standing around Limsa.

It isn't just Dungeons that are becoming more and more style over substance, you can find this happening in most Gameplay elements in this Game, especially in the way how Jobs are being designed since Stormblood.

It always makes me think that the Dev's have absolutely no faith in the Playerbase and only prefer to cater further and further to toxic casualism, just because they know that all the Yoshi P. Evangelists will forgive them any sins anyway and lash out at everyone giving out critic, without even trying to understand both sides of the argument.

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Envoyé par Velnora

Right. The way it's ran is poorly designed. You don't run it for the content. You run it for the bribe.

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And that's fine. Most forms of repeatable content have rewards to justify that repetition. Some contents are fun the first time around, and some contents are fun enough to repeat with the right incentives.

Also, there is always alternative content. But while there are other contents that I can do to get the rewards that Expert roulette offers, doing the dungeon is just more fun for me, so that's what I choose.