Pulling the bosses In dungeons as DPS a thing now?

If I dont feeling like pulling wall to wall why should I have to comply to a hasty dps who wants me to do it?

If you want fast pulls play tank yourself or play with your friends. There are times that I simply want to relax.

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Originally Posted by Machka

Nah, the problem here is clearly tank arrogance and entitlement. And I'm saying this as a tank, not a dps.

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As people, yes everyone has a right to feel unhappy about things that upset them. But as players in a multiplayer game, how you feel is not the only thing that matters. To insist that other players need to cater to your feelings is entitlement at its finest. Playing a tank doesn't make you special. It doesn't make you king. You don't deserve extra respect for it. To think that it does is arrogance.

Tanks need to do their job just like everyone else is expected to. If you do it well, then maybe, just maybe, you'll earn others' respect.

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This. Just because I'm playing tank (or healer) doesn't put me above everyone else and demand people respect my role. In fact I appreciate it if someone with more range than me goes off and pops a group and brings it to me, saves me from running, especially if I've run out of sprint. Going AFK and telling people to "learn their roles" is an incredibly negative attitude and arrogance I despise, and for some reason a lot of people with the mentor crown have this foul attitude where they feel like it is their right to be obstructive towards everyone. I've gone several runs as healer where a DPS pulls for the tank, and then the tank spends 20 or so minutes spewing vitriol at the DPS, and telling me to "Let them die". We end up completing the dungeon without the tank and usually kick them for AFKing just before the final boss.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...kPrivilege.jpg

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Originally Posted by Yoshihara

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...kPrivilege.jpg

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That last line in your picture is a nice way to look at things.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

If you really do what you're saying you do, which I kinda doubt, why not just speak to the party? If I see a dps underperforming, not using AoEs, I wouldn't just reduce my pulls to cater to him, I'd be frank and ask him why he isn't using AoEs, it's that simple. The problem of not communicating is that you risk being misinterpreted. We're only humans, after all.

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I communicate. That said, "Please AoE when fighting 3+ mobs, and focus the same mob as everyone else when attacking the remainder," tends to me met with the same silence or offhand crude comment as "Tank, the healer has been able to keep you alive thus far off a single Regen and a couple oGCDs, and our damage is plentiful. We should be safe to do full pulls. Do you mind if we try them?"

Yes, I have multiple macros for each. They see use in about every fourth run. They have an effect in about every thirtieth. At some point, you wonder if it's even worth the space on your fly-out bar.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I communicate. That said, "Please AoE when fighting 3+ mobs, and focus the same mob as everyone else when attacking the remainder," tends to me met with the same silence or offhand crude comment as "Tank, the healer has been able to keep you alive thus far off a single Regen and a couple oGCDs, and our damage is plentiful. We should be safe to do full pulls. Do you mind if we try them?"

Yes, I have multiple macros for each. They see use in about every fourth run. They have an effect in about every thirtieth. At some point, you wonder if it's even worth the space on your fly-out bar.

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If you really do communicate, then there is no problem, you did all you could and that's fine. But it's important to note that this approach is completely different than just taking conclusions by yourself, thinking you know more than the others and trying to do their job for them. That is arrogance (having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities).

Most of us do not like small pulls. It slows down the run and we don't get to pop cooldowns and aoe like crazy. Still, for me at least, it's always the tank and healers call. When I queue up for a group activity I do so understanding that not everyone plays optimally/how I want. Even if it's not the pace I prefer I always try to be respectful or not say anything at all and certainly do not pull for my tank.

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Originally Posted by Inuk9

If I dont feeling like pulling wall to wall why should I have to comply to a hasty dps who wants me to do it?

If you want fast pulls play tank yourself or play with your friends. There are times that I simply want to relax.

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Try relaxing when you're not slowing down 3 other players- just a thought.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

If you really do communicate, then there is no problem, you did all you could and that's fine. But it's important to note that this approach is completely different than just taking conclusions by yourself, thinking you know more than the others and trying to do their job for them. That is arrogance (having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities).

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I don't think it's completely different. You are either performing the task for the party or you are not. That you do or do not receive a response from the member in question, or that you may run into conflict with one member in attempting to benefit everyone else, doesn't change that. Their performance changes only what can at best be expected your given party, not whether or not you are allowed to perform to that estimate as a party.

If the majority of the party wants to go out of their way to slow the run, then perhaps one should just do that or leave and queue again later. But if the majority wants to run at a unfettered pace and that pace is possible except for the ego of the tank, then I would situationally encourage the party to pressure that end, even if it means going past the tank and pulling for them. "Tank, we're doing full pulls. Use your Sprint just before combat to double its duration, get in one AoE of threat on everything and then gather the further groups. Open with HG/LD/SB and trickle CDs from there and we'll deal with it."

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I don't think it's completely different. You are either performing the task for the party or you are not. That you do or do not receive a response from the member in question, or that you may run into conflict with one member in attempting to benefit everyone else, doesn't change that. Their performance changes only what can at best be expected your given party, not whether or not you are allowed to perform to that estimate as a party.

If the majority of the party wants to go out of their way to slow the run, then perhaps one should just do that or leave and queue again later. But if the majority wants to run at a unfettered pace and that pace is possible except for the ego of the tank, then I would situationally encourage the party to pressure that end, even if it means going past the tank and pulling for them. "Tank, we're doing full pulls. Use your Sprint just before combat to double its duration, get in one AoE of threat on everything and then gather the further groups. Open with HG/LD/SB and trickle CDs from there and we'll deal with it."

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I 10000% disagree, couldn't disagree more. If your idea of playing with a team is like that "lets force others to play how we want and not even talk to them!", then I'd suggest you to not play in a team at all, this is the kind of behaviour that leads to grief and drama. Whereas if you only communicated (preferably with respect), maybe you could find some common ground and everyone would be happy.

Now if you really want to play like that, I'd suggest trying Trusts, I think they'd be more to your liking.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Whereas if you only communicated (preferably with respect), maybe you could find some common ground and everyone would be happy.

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What you're asking for, as a general rule of conduct and a result therefrom, is fantastical at best.

Communication that neither pushes towards nor achieves a result is, definitively, wasted time and breath. Moreover, when the issue itself is inefficiency on the part of one person to the expense of the others' time--largely due to entitlement, in the cases we've been discussing here--how would attempting to placate an ego of, and offering up a pedestal to (as if one held the same power as three), someone who will most likely not change their actions somehow make things more efficient? That we wish it does not make it so. When the issue taken is with someone's inefficiency, expect people to deal with that problem... efficiently. That may mean pulling or kicking.

Again, we're talking about a situation where the party is able and (minus one player) wanting to do something. If it is acceptable, with few to no words, to kick and replace a member with a difference of playstyle, why should it be unacceptable to draw the one problematic member into the playstyle of the other three under the few words or none?

Three does not equal one, except when you let the one grandstand and the three treat themselves with only a third of the respect with which they treat the one. That is what you're asking.

That no action or no words spoken -- i.e. that no conflict is readily visible -- does not mean no conflict exists. There's a difference between contentment and silent irritation.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Whereas if you only communicated (preferably with respect), maybe you could find some common ground and everyone would be happy.

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This advice would be more applicable to tanks who refuse to full-pull when the party wants to and is capable than the three being held back, whom you would limit to "only communicating".

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What you're asking for, as a general rule of conduct and a result therefrom, is fantastical at best.

Communication that neither pushes towards nor achieves a result is, definitively, wasted time and breath. Moreover, when the issue itself is inefficiency on the part of one person to the expense of the others' time--largely due to entitlement, in the cases we've been discussing here--how would attempting to placate an ego of, and offering up a pedestal to (as if one held the same power as three), someone who will most likely not change their actions somehow make things more efficient? That we wish it does not make it so. When the issue taken is with someone's inefficiency, expect people to deal with that problem... efficiently. That may mean pulling or kicking.

Again, we're talking about a situation where the party is able and (minus one player) wanting to do something. If it is acceptable, with few to no words, to kick and replace a member with a difference of playstyle, why should it be unacceptable to draw the one problematic member into the playstyle of the other three under the few words or none?

Three does not equal one, except when you let the one grandstand and the three treat themselves with only a third of the respect with which they treat the one. That is what you're asking.

That no action or no words spoken -- i.e. that no conflict is readily visible -- does not mean no conflict exists. There's a difference between contentment and silent irritation.


This advice would be more applicable to tanks who refuse to full-pull when the party wants to and is capable than the three being held back, whom you would limit to "only communicating".

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Please, just read what you're writing, I can feel the arrogance in your words from miles away. You're assuming the people you're playing with won't hear your words or even answer without trying? How is that not arrogance? You know better than them?

And of course my advice is applicable to tanks who refuse full-pulls, it's applicable for any sort of team situations. If you have a problem, you talk about it and reach a common ground, you don't just go doing what you think is best because you know better than others. Now if after communicating you can't reach a consensus, then it's up to you what you want to do, kick the guy, leave the party, you're free to decide.

But what if the tank is not doing full-pulls because he's having a lag that started after he got in the dungeon? Would you start pulling for the guy without knowing his situation? Would you kick him for that if you knew?

Seriously, the lack of empathy is baffling.

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Originally Posted by ThunderGodThor

Try relaxing when you're not slowing down 3 other players- just a thought.

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What does that even mean? Is going faster more relaxing for the tank? Or do you mean doing dungeons solo instead? Your comment is extremely vague and not helpful at all.

Though if you want the Fastest Run Imaginable, why are you using DF? People to claim to be in giant FCs with a million friends, so why are you expecting DF tanks to cater to your precious DPS needs every time? If you want a time efficient run, do it with people you know. When you use the DF you accept that not all players will conform to your playstyle and you'll just have to deal with it, especially when the one that doesn't play your way is the one leading the group.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I agree with this. Since it's suboptimal, the dps in question should be simply kicked instead after the trash pack in order not to encourage purposely playing badly in a team activity.

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I know you're probably just joking, but I wanted to address this statement b/c I think there are some players that might unironically agree with this.

This sort of response to the points I made in my previous post is missing the point I was making. That being the fact tanks do suboptimal things that inconvenience other players all the time. The two examples I gave happen way more often than people pulling ahead of tanks, but generally dps/healer players don't sweat it too much b/c it's generally nothing more than an inconvenience. Yet it's usually only tanks that you see having meltdowns over minor inconveniences like this. The reason for that is a sense of entitlement that some tank players seem to have. A sense of entitlement that we have been shown examples of all throughout this thread.

As was already pointed out, kicking dps merely for doing something suboptimal would be akin to kicking a tank doing single pulls when double pulls would have been ok. Sounds a bit silly and elitist, right? That's because it kind of is.
To unironically agree with the above quoted statement without realizing/acknowledging that the same standard would also apply to tanks is exactly the sort of problematic perspective many people have when it comes to being a tank.

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Originally Posted by Machka

Yet it's usually only tanks that you see having meltdowns over minor inconveniences like this. The reason for that is a sense of entitlement that some tank players seem to have. A sense of entitlement that we have been shown examples of all throughout this thread.

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I think you need to know you're really only seeing what you want to see. I see DPS constantly having meltdowns because I don't pull the boss fast enough and they lose their combo or buff or something. Like oh no the dungeon will take an extra 30 seconds, better try to kick the tank over it. Meanwhile I hardly ever see tanks getting upset by things. So which one of us is right?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I think you need to know you're really only seeing what you want to see. I see DPS constantly having meltdowns because I don't pull the boss fast enough and they lose their combo or buff or something. Like oh no the dungeon will take an extra 30 seconds, better try to kick the tank over it. Meanwhile I hardly ever see tanks getting upset by things. So which one of us is right?

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You see, that is the exact sort of warped mindset I'm talking about. A dps going ahead and attacking something to keep their stacks is not a meltdown. It's not even in the same galaxy as a tank stopping to type so they can assert their dominance, or even refusing to tank altogether like OP did (and many people in this thread have been saying they do too). You're the one seeing only what you want to see.

Do you mostly only play as a tank? If so, there's your answer as to why you might hardly ever see it. And as I said in a much earlier comment, if you are frequently seeing dps pull ahead of you that just means you are frequently going too slow.

Edit: Also, to respond to your last point, we're discussing this in a thread full of tanks talking about how they get upset by things. Some are even talking about how they respond to those sorts of situations by having a meltdown. Refusing to do your job as a tank and deliberately letting a party member keep aggro and die is having a meltdown. So how much either of us think we see it is kind of a moot point - this thread basically speaks for itself.

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Originally Posted by Machka

You see, that is the exact sort of warped mindset I'm talking about. A dps going ahead and attacking something to keep their stacks is not a meltdown. It's not even in the same galaxy as a tank stopping to type so they can assert their dominance, or even refusing to tank altogether like OP did (and many people in this thread have been saying they do too). You're the one seeing only what you want to see.

Do you mostly only play as a tank? If so, there's your answer as to why you might hardly ever see it. And as I said in a much earlier comment, if you are frequently seeing dps pull ahead of you that just means you are frequently going too slow.

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It truly floors me that your reading comprehension is so poor and you're so dead-set on this fantasy you've cooked up for yourself. I never said the DPS pulling something is a meltdown. I mentioned them trying to kick the tank because they can't be arsed to be in the dungeon for an extra 30 seconds. I'd quote that part for you, but I assume you read it since you quoted my entire post. Apparently not.

I've played as all roles, and I've actually tanked the least out of all of them. Yet still, I've seen entitled DPS more no matter what role I'm in. Fancy that.

Just as a preemptive time saver, don't bother arguing with me further if you're not going to read all of what you're quoting. You literally ignored a vital part of my statement in order to twist things to make you appear right. I believe that's called "cherry picking". Try not to do that anymore, okay?

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Originally Posted by Doozer

What does that even mean? Is going faster more relaxing for the tank? Or do you mean doing dungeons solo instead? Your comment is extremely vague and not helpful at all.

Though if you want the Fastest Run Imaginable, why are you using DF? People to claim to be in giant FCs with a million friends, so why are you expecting DF tanks to cater to your precious DPS needs every time? If you want a time efficient run, do it with people you know. When you use the DF you accept that not all players will conform to your playstyle and you'll just have to deal with it, especially when the one that doesn't play your way is the one leading the group.

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It means that your method of relaxation should not require irritating 3 other people in equal measure.

Going into content with the purpose of relaxing, rather than... completing the content, is the abnormal case. By your own warrant, DF would be at least as poor a fit for you.

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Doozer, the remainder of this has nothing directly to do with you. You needn't strain your eyes. It is merely based upon, and attempts to better inform, the assumptions in your quote above, because similar arguments have appeared multiple times throughout the thread.

Unironically, full pulls can easily be more relaxing, once you're used to them. Good play, like anything else seeking the path of least resistance, tends to consolidate over time into easily remembered expectations. This pull gets these CDs; next pull gets those. There's far less confusion, and far less in-the-moment decision making of any significant degree required. The "communication" is simply automatic: see this, do that. And let's not pretend that just because it's not spoken, it isn't communication, or that unspoken communication must somehow be unfriendly. I've had BLMs friend request me after a silent run (apart from one "lol" when I teased him with a juke into an AoE) just because I would position myself to AM taxi for every mechanic. I, in turn, have friend requested other party members for being particular aware of mechanics and uptime in a way that showed attention and interest in what I was doing and could accomplish. Many a close friend I've met from runs in which the communication was silent, but thick with attention.

Here's something that was fairly standard practice in ARR. I'll give it to you in a concrete example as to be more easily visualized.

Stone Vigil for the first time. Int and Mind have not yet been divided on gear. 3 mobs. First mob should take around 15-20 seconds to die. Having stutter-cast towards the next mob group, SMN and WHM arrive first. WHM has already Pre-Regened WAR and then precasts stone on lead (first tab) target, while SMN precasts Bio II (had a cast time). WAR arrives in time to Tomahawk lead mob just before the spells hit and MNK facepull range. MNK refreshes GL3 with Demo on a mob other than the lead mob, then ToDs both non-lead mobs. WHM Aeros lead, then the two other mobs. SMN uses Miasma and Bio, then Bane. If the first target is already at least half dead, the secondary target DoTed first is slept first and the other not slept; if not already half dead, it is slept last and both are slept. The low-DoT target is then focused down, then the one awake and with least DoT time remaining. Over this time, the SMN does the healing, because only some 1000 potency of healing would be necessary, the SMN still had as much Mind as the SMN and had the same healing-affecting traits, and Ruin did only about half of what Stone II would do, while at most requiring one further GCD to do all the healing needed.

Now, that sounds awfully complex, but it ultimately just came down to... "How do I not waste my allies' damage potential?" And despite using DF, I could get that practice done well, wordlessly, in more than a quarter of my leveling spams, and could teach it within a pull or two to anyone who'd listen mostly just through a bit of target marking, so long as they were attentive to more than just "I need to be putting out damage/healing/enmity" and actually thought about the context of the party.

So many here seem to be trying to discount useful awareness and engagement dependence upon prior spoken "communication", when in fact you can have so much more fun with a party when you don't take a meat cleaver to responsibilities and allocate whose right it is to make a given decision and just... do good play. But that requires people to have a mindset guided by "How do I better benefit the party?" over "What is the extent of my authority?" Communication for its own sake is neither at all meaningful nor inherently friendly. Being aware of others' good play in the course of your own, on the other hand, leaves you with a lot more to be friendly about.

I'm not saying we should run dungeons like optimized robots. I'm saying merely that not wasting others' time, and playing to the best of your abilities, can make runs feel a hell of a lot better, so... why should one play decidedly less well (and effectively experience less) than one can? And why should that unengaged play be the expectation or standard from which one should have to communicate or excuse themselves just to move beyond?

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I agree with this. Since it's suboptimal, the dps in question should be simply kicked instead after the trash pack in order not to encourage purposely playing badly in a team activity.

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Given the situation in question, the dps pulling probably isn't suboptimal; it may even force a positive change.

Moreover, a "team activity" only has actual team activity insofar as its teamwork results in increased efficiency. Etymologically speaking, teamwork must include both a team (those "bridled" together for a specific purpose) and work (output) directly owed to that arrangement. It must have teamwork in practice, not only in phantom ('respecting' this or that possible output or division of responsibility). If a task done as a group is less efficient than it being done individually, it is at best a mixed use of resources (sacrificing output as a future investment for some later group task); you have approached, but not yet reached, teamwork.

Team activity, the way you're using the term here, still is not some inherently good or sacred thing made through tangential etiquette or customs. If it does not help, it does not have value. You can consider that a callous statement if you like, but its why, when coordination with a group of people does help, it's actually worth valuing.

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Originally Posted by Kanitezz

That last line in your picture is a nice way to look at things.

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I've had that exact situation occur probably dozens of times if you include PotD/HoH; about a dozen otherwise. The inverse, having a DPS run away with it... only once.

On a Warrior, especially, it can be quite helpful for a ranged to collapse a distant mob into the line of your Overpower just before you pass by.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

(Wall of text)

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I'm really not sure why you wrote an essay after telling me what someone meant. Like 90% of that is completely irrelevant to what was said. Sending friend requests? Old war stories about ARR? And what's with the fine print in the middle. I'm not squinting to read that. I just asked what a vague statement meant, jeez. Please Google what 'concise' means.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Please, just read what you're writing, I can feel the arrogance in your words from miles away.

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I feel like this is very applicable to most of your responses here, Shurrikhan. A lot of 'explaining' to us simple people about teamwork and the definition of communication.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

It truly floors me that your reading comprehension is so poor and you're so dead-set on this fantasy you've cooked up for yourself. I never said the DPS pulling something is a meltdown. I mentioned them trying to kick the tank because they can't be arsed to be in the dungeon for an extra 30 seconds. I'd quote that part for you, but I assume you read it since you quoted my entire post. Apparently not.

I've played as all roles, and I've actually tanked the least out of all of them. Yet still, I've seen entitled DPS more no matter what role I'm in. Fancy that.

Just as a preemptive time saver, don't bother arguing with me further if you're not going to read all of what you're quoting. You literally ignored a vital part of my statement in order to twist things to make you appear right. I believe that's called "cherry picking". Try not to do that anymore, okay?

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Oh I'm ever so sorry that I've ruffled your feathers. Do accept my sincerest apologies for having not replied according to your lofty standards, my good sir. I did not realize that, in your magnificence, your time is so valuable that I am encouraged, nay, compelled to make sure you don't let a single minute of it go to waste whilst conversing on an electronic forum.

Anyways, sure yeah, I acknowledge I didn't respond 'kicking tank over wanting a dungeon to go 30 seconds faster' line. If that line is that important to you though, I'm happy to oblige.
In a nutshell - LOL I have never seen that happen before. What a silly idea. Just getting a tank kicked and replaced would take longer than 30 seconds, even if a replacement tank appears instantly and starts sprinting over from the checkpoint. Any players that truly cared about things going 30s faster would not waste time arguing - they would just continue killing things. And in any content where a tank isn't even necessary, players who care about going fast would just keep going. Because arguing over this kind of stuff in a dungeon wastes time.

So either you/those tanks you saw got kicked for something other than simply 'people wanted to go 30 seconds faster', or you're just making this up for the sake of trying to make your point. I didn't respond to that line b/c it was so ridiculous I didn't feel it warranted a response. If that was a vital part of your statement, I'm very sorry for your statement, but it now holds even less water than it did earlier. You can be as condescending as you like but it won't change the facts. I'm not even arguing with you. This entire thread is chock full of tanks who get upset over the minor inconveniences I was referring to. Just go and read them yourself. You do so value reading comprehension, right? :^)

And seriously though, that last line of yours is exactly the sort of imperious diva attitude many of us have been trying to point out here. It's not very healthy, and definitely isn't a good look.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I'm really not sure why you wrote an essay after telling me what someone meant. Like 90% of that is completely irrelevant to what was said. Sending friend requests? Old war stories about ARR? And what's with the fine print in the middle. I'm not squinting to read that. I just asked what a vague statement meant, jeez. Please Google what 'concise' means.



I feel like this is very applicable to most of your responses here, Shurrikhan. A lot of 'explaining' to us simple people about teamwork and the definition of communication.

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Well, try arguing with my ideas. Do you think what I said about communication and teamwork is right or wrong? I don't know, couldn't grasp a single thing of value from your comment.

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Originally Posted by Nyoraii

Well, try arguing with my ideas. Do you think what I said about communication and teamwork is right or wrong? I don't know, couldn't grasp a single thing of value from your comment.

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I wasn't even talking to you. I quoted your comment and then specified I said it was also applicable to someone else's attitude. I think I agreed with at least some of the things you said, so I'm not sure why you're coming after me so hard.

EDIT: To clarify, to avoid further confusion, I referred to someone by name in the post you quoted that I also felt it was applicable to them, with regards to their long-winded story about the literal etymological definition of 'teamwork' in a very condescending way that had very little to do with what anyone was ever talking about. So I added that quote in after I responded to them to say it could also be said about that post.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

I wasn't even talking to you. I quoted your comment and then specified I said it was also applicable to someone else's attitude. I think I agreed with at least some of the things you said, so I'm not sure why you're coming after me so hard.

EDIT: To clarify, to avoid further confusion, I referred to someone by name in the post you quoted that I also felt it was applicable to them, with regards to their long-winded story about the literal etymological definition of 'teamwork' in a very condescending way that had very little to do with what anyone was ever talking about. So I added that quote in after I responded to them to say it could also be said about that post.

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Sorry, I got confused, my bad.

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Originally Posted by Naychan

As a healer watching a dps pull the named and the tank didn't move, I would have backed out behind the line and grabbed my popcorn. But I seriously doubt I would have vote kicked anybody unless they were being a complete "insert your favorite derogatory word here". Overall I find this funny.

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And you would most likely get votekicked and blacklisted.

I just tell tanks not to pull until I'm ready since I'm the one doing the majority of pulling. When DPS is low and they complain, I tell them to stay in their lane, as it's my job to kill stuff, their damage is just fluff lol.

In all seriousness it's really not that big a deal. If it is to you, then you have deeper issued you need to work out.

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Originally Posted by Magnedeus

And you would most likely get votekicked and blacklisted.

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i can almost garentee they would not since most healers will do that if a dps pulls the boss and they see the tank not moving cause i tcan mean a few things tank is afk so the healer will die if they heal the dps . the tank is throwing a fit and not gonna pull again the healer will die if they heal the dps. or the tank go tdistracted by something in which case again the healer will likely die if they heal the dps. so in this scenario most healers will back out to save themself on repair costs.

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

i can almost garentee they would not since most healers will do that if a dps pulls the boss and they see the tank not moving cause i tcan mean a few things tank is afk so the healer will die if they heal the dps . the tank is throwing a fit and not gonna pull again the healer will die if they heal the dps. or the tank go tdistracted by something in which case again the healer will likely die if they heal the dps. so in this scenario most healers will back out to save themself on repair costs.

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Most? I've seen dozens of dps-pulls in quick runs, even onto bosses, and never a healer locking themselves out.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Most? I've seen dozens of dps-pulls in quick runs, even onto bosses, and never a healer locking themselves out.

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if the tank moves sure but if the tank is sitting there then most i have seen will back out along with the other dps cause they dont wanna take the chance of the tank being afk or something

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Originally Posted by dragoelete

if the tank moves sure but if the tank is sitting there then most i have seen will back out along with the other dps cause they dont wanna take the chance of the tank being afk or something

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Ahh, I missed that parameter. Still haven't seen it, but only because when the tank's stepped out, the whole party was already annoyed with them.

In my own case, I'd probably go in. I mean, if you're going to have to wait for returns anyways, death is a free CD reset.

Honestly I've never stopped tanking because a DPS pulled. I have however not tanked a particular monster that the DPS pulled. if I grab 2 Patrols and they insist they want three. then they can tank the 3rd themselves. Ill tank what I pulled, if he's somehow still alive by the time what I pulled is down then ill help.

In my off and on again playtime, the only time I have ever seen DPS run and grab stuff is literally like only the first 3-4 earliest dungeons, and when that has happened, I have literally thought to myself "okie doke, guess I need to speed up and grab stuff faster."

And with enmity gen like it is now, no matter who pulls what, I will have aggro within one gcd. It's that easy. So we are talking about about "oh no, teh deepz pulled in Sastasha!!!" Uhm whatever?

Here's where the real gripe comes from, if we are all being honest - DPS pulling means at least that DPS has decided their tank sucks, and that means zero player comms for tank, most likely. Maybe the healer will pity you, but chances are good that is a big 0 for that dungeon. Whatever. Get to 300 and everything after that is pointless anyway.

If DPS want to pull, remember where your AE buttons are. Done.

1993. That's when I logged into my first MUD. had tanks and healers and dps.

you know what we didn't do back then? have dps pull - unless it was a rogue luring something several rooms away.

it's 2019. it's still rude to do and disrespects the tank. quit being jerks.

I literally just did the first dungeon in Shadowbringers (don't remember the name of it) and not only did the DDs pull, the healer went out of his way to pull packs as well. "Fine", I thought, "I guess I'll pull more packs then". After the first boss I pulled 2 packs of mobs, 6 mobs in total, and we wiped. I used all of my CDs, including Hallowed Ground, and the healer was still not able to keep me up.

If you're so eager to pull mobs, roll a tank. It's that simple. Besides, is it really that important to clear the dungeon 2 minutes faster (if that) than it normally takes, while risking to wipe which makes it take longer?

I LOVE how mid-way through the dungeon the packs of mobs don't even spawn until you've killed the last pack of mobs - no ninja-pulling allowed! :o

I really enjoy tanking, but with the recent trend in ninja-pulling and "hurry hurry-mentality" I've started to dislike it more and more. Healing, something I also used to love, has practically been ruined by the monster-pulls most tanks do these days, where the tank is always balancing on <10% health and you're sweating just to keep him alive, while the DDs are moaning that you're not doing enough damage.

Just my thoughts. :o

Honestly, mate, I'm with you on that. I'm a tank main since time immemorial in any games I've played. And I hate the things like that happen. There is a particular rules for dungeones and they must be maintained. I think i would've done the same. It's stupid - yes, it's toxic (a little) - yes, it's waste of time - yes. But it would give me a little of satisfaction anyway. It's a players like this dragoon piece you off and triggers the tanks in dungeons and such. It's their fault in the first place. The bad consequences of such actions is that healer will have to use resources to heal that dumbass instead of focusing on tank since, even if you use taunt, he will still get one-two hits from the boss. And I'm not even mention the morality damage of the tanking person when such things happens. Tanks are MUST go 1st not just because they want it - because it's the core mechanic of party.

I am the tank main. Whenever I Q in the dungeon I always ask in the chat - "Fast or safe?". And listening only for HEALER's reply. Usualy I get response "Fast" so I know my healer is ready to patch me up in the big pull. When I get response "Safe" I do the small, usual pull and DPS can shove all their complains further in the A-hole if they need to. Because, it's true, the party mechanic actualy have in core the healer and the tank, while dps are just making things a bit faster in the MOST of the regular dungeons. There is not so much of dutyes where you need some DPS in time. So if you Q for duty as DPS be sure to understand that your job is doing damage, not pulling, not running around and ahead of the party, but stay BEHIND and let tank his job.

I'm a tank main.

In dungeons, I care about speed. Why? Faster XP/tomes. Everything else is secondary. I don't care about feelings, including my own. If the healer can handle me pulling wall-to-wall, I'll do it. If a healer runs ahead and pulls a pack, it tells me I can move faster. So I do. If a dps pulls, I don't get my feelings hurt. I pick up the mobs/boss and we kill them as fast as possible.

What annoys me MUCH more in a dungeon is dps/healers who drag behind.

Tanks drag their feet to much. I don't know if other jobs have a timer like dragoons, but it sucks you lose it when a tank just stands there or for some reason never sprints between empty space. Tanks are just a big let down when this happens. Dragoons did nothing wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Juanpierre

Everything else is secondary. I don't care about feelings, including my own. If the healer can handle me pulling wall-to-wall, I'll do it. If a healer runs ahead and pulls a pack, it tells me I can move faster. So I do. If a dps pulls, I don't get my feelings hurt. I pick up the mobs/boss and we kill them as fast as possible.

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Agreed 100%. This is what tanking is about. We are here to tank things and get the job done.

Dungeons are for the rewards and fun, not a stage for any particular player to have their ego massaged. That's not to say people shouldn't still be respectful to other players, but it's pointless for tanks (or anyone) to sit around feeling offended by the way someone is clearing a dungeon. Players who throw tantrums over perceived slights, like tanks who stop tanking when someone else pulls ahead of them, are just acting like spoiled children.

It's also just about the least heroic/warrior-y/leader-like behavior ever, which I always find ironic.

there is a thing, if you don't run ahead of your teammates, you deserve to have a dps to pull for you.....

In my opinion the main problem will ever and always be seeing things/thinking differently than that of the group we were randomly put into.

It's probably bad for me to admit this but I'm more of a submissive person when it comes to group stuff. I usually do what everyone else wants and don't ask questions about it. I might've mentioned earlier in this thread or another that I have anxiety. Not "tanxiety". Just anxiety. I say hello and proceed to the first packs when the dungeon starts. My default speed in dungeons is to do "big" pulls. But if my group doesn't want to do that, and they make that known to me, I just say ok. It doesn't bother me that much.