Which is a problem with most of the content in this game. Eureka is dead, Rival Wings is dead. It's not a BLU only problem.Quote:
[*]It means once people get theirs you have reduced to less and less likely chances of actually getting the good part of blue mage as less groups will be running for things that they've no value for. If you don't take part in the rush, then your drought build time to enjoy blue mage is drawn greatly, and some spells that would have increased your enjoyment just wont be achievable.
Most content is simply not replayable at all. It's also the problem with synced content, or min-ilvl content.
BLU's not the only content that needs it, even Hildy trials aren't getting filled because there's no incentive to do them.
Which is fine because it adds flavor. It also interfaces perfectly with Condensed Libra with Astral and Umbral damage, and Carnival with those niche spells being used during the floors.Quote:
[*]It devalues collecting other spells when pretty much all except for specific spells are just terrible, or are at least different colors, perhaps even different colors of terrible.
Sure in the sanitized, no elemental weakness bullshit sandbox that we have right now, of course it's gonna be terrible or useless, but in its own skillset and toolkit, it does fit.
Which is fine because if you just one shot bosses, it doesn't count as adding replayability to old content.Quote:
[*]That other spells are so devalues the whole 'we made blue mage this way so we could give it the real spells' but wait we totally didn't because we wanted to balance it around PF exclusive content, and we designed the whole job in a way that you have the least interesting possible mechanics if you don't do PF only content which of course will only be most feasible at launch of each content
You can one shot bosses with your lvl 80 unsynced, why do we want to one shot a boss in synced content?
It makes sense because it's obvious that they want BLU to be the "do synced or min ilvl" job, which frankly, it does well.
Which I can also say about all the ARR classes. At least BLU you get to learn more skills at lower levels, and that the powerleveling thing still works.Quote:
...blue mage has been the worst leveling experience and it takes the least amount of time because once you get past the novelty of spamming on spell (which a job shouldn't have been built around, that's a sad fate) then you're stuck with a not very well designed job UNTIL you farm out every piece in PF...
You're not gonna be stuck spamming 3 spells at lvl 30, since you can just start learning the overworld spells immediately.
Scholar even loses spells once they're promoted to SCH. ACN at lvl 30 is a lot more engaging than SCH at lvl 30.
I did tell you that it takes a lot of time to set up, but then again it's essentially something to do and grind for, which is what the game needs because after clearing Savage, there's really nothing to do.Quote:
[*]It means that you will play the poor uninteresting BLU until you get to the built version, unlike all the other jobs which are interesting much sooner. Which means they drew out the time, indefinitely for quite a lot of players, where the job is just dull and only because the novelty of casting monster spells is it not entirely dead (spamming 1k needle, neat for a while, but entirely boring mechanically). Level 50 job vs level 50 blue mage that doesn't have the PF only spells, the level 50 job has a way more engaging kit.
Without something to do, you really just login for raids, or for weeklies. BLU adds filler between those days.
And the lvl 50 job vs lvl 50 BLU is not a good comparison. It's like comparing a lvl 50 warrior that didn't do job quests to a full spellbook BLU.
Again it takes work to have it fully set up, and that's fine. We need the content anyway.
Quote:
Once you get the PF only skills your kit while a bit silly in potential doesn't even significantly play more interestingly than an actual job. (obviously synced down job vs blue mage sync, blue mage goes faster). Mind you if you let a level 80 job sync down to 50 content with it's whole kit that it too would go a lot faster (as you pointed out blue mage has a full spell list unlike some other jobs that sync down). Which is to say when it's good it's basically nearing other jobs and when it's bad.. it's just really bad and the only thing that makes it not feel dismal is that you get to use monster spells (hinging entirely on the novelty).
It does play significantly different role wise. Heal BLU is the best healer in the game hands down, and the most engaging healer I've ever played since ShB launch.Quote:
The role switch while vaguely novel doesn't add mechanical value to the job if anything it takes away from it.
It blows SCH and AST out of the water and honestly is a good foundation for healer design for this game.
DPS BLU has specific Moon flute windows, and having to cast the right spell based on Condensed Libra.
Tank BLU is bad, I'll admit, but even then it's a lot more risky playstyle given to a tank. Having no Rampart, and having to cast your cooldowns means that you have to be on top of your game as a tank.
It's a grind. Complaining about BLU progression is like me at lvl 30 complaining about how much MSQ I need to do. It's like if I'm a lvl 10 Carpenter, and I'm complaining how much Diadem and Restoration and leves and turn-ins I have to do. It's literally something to do, and the big pay off is the full spellbook BLU experience. Which, again, the game desperately needs.Quote:
[*]That the job doesn't use all the monster spells 1:1:, that the job is at it's most interesting (your words and the words of others who liked the blue mage after PF content) when it has the most shape and form and is most like an actual 'real job', just to me makes the entire reason blue mage the way it is now as experience with a metal bristle brush and salt.
And that's the thing though, it is a complete job in what it does . It's pretty much what a job in FFXIV is if they haven't trimmed skills for the sake of "QoL".Quote:
So what you mean to tell me is the most enjoyable blue mage would have been a complete job..? Color me shocked.
Hell, BLU's even a lot more engaing than most jobs. Warrior lost half of its kit, DRK got turned into a budget WAR, the healers lost all their dps skill.
The main reason people doesn't consider it as a complete job is because it's stuck at lvl 60 content and not able to queue in DF, which believe me, you don't want to do.
BLU's not one shot broken, but it has the most dps and the most versatility in its kit, and if you let them in at lvl 80 content, everyone would literally just want a BLU, maybe except for tanks.
MoonFlute + Boost + Final Sting can deal more DPS or close to Melee LB3 dps. It has a spammable Arm's Length, a busted "Cure 3" with the size of the whole arena, and has 8 Trick Attacks.
I don't wanna see current BLU be gutted just to become just a normal caster, or just a normal tank or worse, a ShB healer. Don't let the people who gutted healers touch BLU.
Blue mage is a waste of potential, change my mind.
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06-19-2020, 02:55 AMPayotz
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06-19-2020, 02:55 AMHadesNightLOL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Honestly, I think coming to the OF and expressing your opinions openly and with consideration that the Dev teams are real people too is totally fine. My sincere hope is that we're not speaking to the aether here lol. So whenever I see a popular topic that I have an opinion I want them to see, I try to slip it in.
Would I complain if they went back and made it a full job? Hell no. I really like Blue Mages main stance and pose! It's a fun class and it would be great in game. So fingers crossed! -
06-19-2020, 03:00 AMReiMakotoEntirely aggree, I was just bringing up why so many people seem fixated on how it was in other games. So often in these styles of threads you see lots of "if it was unlimited it wouldnt be blue mage" or such nonsense. Its okay to like the content you like and nobody reasonable is trying to take it away from you, just if you're going in for a discussion try argue points that can actually be backed up if youre making definitive statements. Personally im a fan of the best of both worlds approach, because I do like to use limitied blu from time to time to boost people through early game. So a system where we can have a dungeon BLU using the optimal rotation blu already has, and a limited one for the folks who just wanna chill seems like the most logical approach to push SE for.Quote:
Originally Posted by HadesNight
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06-19-2020, 03:06 AMReiMakotoJust a snip here about your point on condensed libra, mathematically its almost pointless. The maximum you can get out of it is like 700potency's worth of damage if all your party did was spam the correct element, in practice getting physical gimps your damage so its worthless, and astral is just better than umbral to get, also you have non elemental spells to use. Generously you could say on a good roll you could get 400-500 potency out of libra per cast if you're being very generous, but that is an absolute drop in the bucket compared to everything else thats going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Also also while im talking numbers, if you take off dps mimicry and dont use the self destruct attacks, blus output is actually fairly balanced for a level 60 dps, and I wouldnt mind using an expansion of the rotation it has as a full job, wouldt call it gutting either as the level 60 rotation we have is what you use most of the time anyway -
06-19-2020, 03:12 AMMelodyCrystelWhich is a natural thing to happen in case of those people who played other Final Fantasy games before XIV; especially when you consider players coming from XI.Quote:
Originally Posted by HadesNight
->Or are you surprised that others get disappointed when XIV-Bluemage here is neither overpowered (which a Limited Solo Job suggests) nor a normal job that can enter every content?
I personally won't protest in any harsh manner against XIV's interpretation, yet I'll show you the BLU-versions I played / really loved myself --- and they all were full-fledged jobs that required you to chase specific monsters for learning skills:
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance / A2 - Blue Mage
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20070928202724
Bravely Default - Vampire
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20131126050616
Bravely Second - Catmancer
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20160619221717 -
06-19-2020, 03:17 AMPayotzSure but it's not just dps output where BLU shines, it's the utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Second Wind, Diamond back, Offguard, Gobskin, Peculiar Light and even the ability to essentially "switch roles" alongside being able to keep dps up will replace ranged physicals as it stands.
If BLU turned into a viable lvl 80 job as it is now, then ranged physical as a role will be phased out immediately, like what happened on ShB launch with double blackmage.
The only way you can balance BLU is by taking out the utility, and turning it into a normal caster, which I say "please no". -
06-19-2020, 03:21 AMReiMakotoTo add to this list as well, the interpretation of BLU in final fantasy explorers was actually top notch, such a shame so few people played that game, it was essentially ffxiv lite on the 3ds, with 4 players running dungeons with aoe telegraphs and boss mechanics and such. BLU in that game only had like 10 or so abilities it could learn but they were all pretty fun to use, it even had the fairest implentation of white wind ive seen, where it placed a healing zone on the floor like an assylum and standing in it would heal everyone for 5% of the blues current hp every tick and it ticked 20 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by MelodyCrystel
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06-19-2020, 03:26 AMShougunAbsolutely :D. Yeah I like to do that too (I think I did that recently in the rescue thread, just pop in and say my little opinion and go lol), it's important that they hear feedback and especially diverse feedback that also explains why they think a way. So they can see "this person like this wants that, this like that.. hmm yess.. okay" haha.Quote:
Originally Posted by HadesNight
Anyway I appreciate your sentiment there and I whole heartily agree that it is good function to bring to the forums, and in general. :)
So your suggestion to a problem is make an entire job built around that problem. . . ? That concerns me...Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Different colors is hardly something I'd call flavor. But let's say it was just for flavor, if that was the case the job could easily condense the flavor spells into a card system and be DF-able and use loads of spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
No it's not fine, because they said the job had to be limited because they wanted to give real spells. The point wasn't satd as such of doing old content hard style, the point was they prevented it from being in content due to balance so they could give it real blue spells and then they balance it anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
What you said is hardly true. All the other jobs use their whole kit, or at least if you were playing optimally they would. Some unique exceptions to like a cover ability which has a very narrow use. Also at level 30 you would be spamming one skill still, and if for soem reason you didn't have the good skill at that level you'd be spamming like three spells. Which is a whole combo of a normal job, ah yes, the 1 2 3 combo the pinnacle of other job's mechanical gameplay (/s).Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Didn't need blue mage to have something to do between patch lulls. But sure something to do sounds better than nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
The level 50 to 50 comparison is absolutely a good comparison, a level 50 job has more mechanical gameplay than a level 50 blue mage that hasn't done PF content. A level 50 job that hasn't done it's job quest STILL has more mechanical gameplay value than blue mage that hasn't done PF. A PF kitted blue is mechanically similar to a regular job (though the power level is obviously different).
DPS blue is less mechanically interesting than a normal job (PF skills can bring it up) healer blue is only so well touted because the normal healers had their damage rotations gutted- if they hadn;t of done that healer blue would also be less valued than a regular healer. Tank blue is just pure bad, agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
I'll give you healer blue but only because what they did in ShB made a lot of healers feel it's too simple / boring, and blue mage here has all of it's damage spells still. It, as many healers argue, shouldnt be this way. Though I personally think one healer being simple is good for players who need/want the simple life, yet for the rest there should either be changes or a new job that meets that desire.
Hard disagree, that the game needed this blue. Agree that it's a grind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Also hard disagree, even though the jobs are trimmed they have all their buff windows, ogcd, interworking combo/utility kit, the normal jobs are STILL more mechnically interesting than a full kitted blue. You've got a buff window in blue, ooo... that's been in the regular jobs since like level 20.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
First I never asked to gut the healers so I don't know what cute sort of protest you're trying to do there but it doesn't apply to me. If anything you'd be opposite of right since not only do I want blue to have more complicated mechanics but I also spent time to suggest a damage based healer job because of the ShB changes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Second obviously the kit would have to change if it became DF-able.. so I'm not going to even comment on what it can do. Although there are many options on how to do that change, some even leaving alone the limited side, like having a set of skills that have a balanced "df" variant, though that's hardly the only option. -
06-19-2020, 03:26 AMReiMakotoOff Guard is just Trick and shares a recast with pec light so with 1 blu in the party wouldnt cause stacking issues. White Wind has been balanced before in other final fantasy games, and as it stands would be quite situational in a current raid environment. There would be little reason to cast gob skin if blu was a dps in the party as it is essentially just a succor and you have a healer for that and the effects dont stack. Diamond Back would be incredibly situational to use in a raid environment unless you were trying to run a solo tank strat, which presents its own quirks and issues. Also you make these declaritive statements about the ranged role being phased out, that would certainly not be the case, like what happened at the start of ShB they would be tuned in such a way they they could not outweigh the 1% dps buff for party diversity/ the limit break penalty, thats just a matter of tuning the numbers, you can't out utility a raid boss in ffxiv due to enrages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
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06-19-2020, 04:10 AMPayotzIt's a solution, yes. I don't agree with Square on a lot of things, and I hated the initial BLU implementation at lvl 50, but as it stands now with BLU mage dungeon log and the 100% drop rate of spells on synced content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
It's a fun job that's well implemented to solve a problem. I say that's a success in that front.
I agree, but balance issues still remain. It's gonna be a lot more RNG heavy than DNC, and the reliability of having Moon Flute only pop up in a 1/80 chance is terrible design.Quote:
Different colors is hardly something I'd call flavor. But let's say it was just for flavor, if that was the case the job could easily condense the flavor spells into a card system and be DF-able and use loads of spells.
BLU would suck as a final job if it has to contend with crit AND utility RNG. It would literally be an even worse version of Balance Fishing pre pull back in HW.
At this point I think we both have very different desires for the job. You want a god mode job that can essentially Missile raid bosses to death, I want a job I can play synced content with.Quote:
No it's not fine, because they said the job had to be limited because they wanted to give real spells. The point isn't doing old content hard style, the point was they prevented it from being in content due to balance so then they could balance it anyways.
I'm not gonna argue with this point.
Yeah, and their whole kit is lacking compared to a BLU spellbook.Quote:
What you said is hardly true. All the other jobs use their whole kit, or at least if you were playing optimally they would. Some unique exceptions to like a cover ability which has a very narrow use. Also at level 30 you would be spamming one skill still, and if for soem reason you didn't have the good skill at that level you'd be spamming like three spells. Which is a whole combo of a normal job, ah yes, the 1 2 3 combo the pinnacle of other job's mechanical gameplay (/s).
At least BLU Healer you have an opener aside from Glare - Glare - Glare - Glare - Glare.
That's obviously not true at all.Quote:
The level 50 to 50 comparison is absolutely a good comparison, a level 50 job has more mechanical gameplay than a level 50 blue mage that hasn't done PF content. A level 50 job that hasn't done it's job quest STILL has more mechanical gameplay value than blue mage that hasn't done PF. A PF kitted blue is mechanically similar to a regular job (though the power level is obviously different).
Are you having fun throwing just throwing Shurikens with one Mudra?
Are you having fun with a Warrior who's essentially a Marauder with no InnerBeast?
I'd argue that Overworld BLU might be the same amount of fun as a job quest less class, but saying that the job quest less class is more fun is obviously not true, and is hyperbolic.
DPS BLU being less mechanically interesting is something I'm leaning towards to but the very fact that BLU has 3 playstyles is a big plus for me essentially makes the job as whole a lot more mechanically interesting for me.Quote:
DPS blue is less mechanically interesting than a normal job, healer blue is only so well touted because the normal healers had their damage rotations gutted- if they hadn;t of done that healer blue would also be less valued than a regular healer. Tank blue is just pure bad, agreed.
I'll give you healer blue but only because what they did in ShB made a lot of healers feel it's too simple / boring, and blue mage here has all of it's damage spells still. It, as many healers argue, shouldn't be this way. Though I personally think one healer being simple is good for players who need/want the simple life, yet for the rest there should either be changes or a new job that meets that desire.
It's subjective. I won't argue with you at this point. I already said that the game needs something to do, so that's there.Quote:
Hard disagree, that the game needed this blue. Agree that it's a grind.
A single job that can function both as a healer, a tank and a dps combined is a lot more interseting than a WHM spamming Glare or the MNK having the same gameplay from ARR to ShB.Quote:
Also hard disagree, even though the jobs are trimmed they have all their buff windows, ogcd, interworking combo/utility kit, the normal jobs are STILL more mechnically interesting than a full kitted blue. You've got a buff window in blue, ooo... that's been in the regular jobs since like level 20.
Yeah man let's just press this button the moment it's on cooldown.
Oh yeah man let's just press Delirium so I can press Fell Cleave DRK edition.
Oh yeah man let's just press Requiescat so I can press Fell Cleave _long range_ edition.
Oh yeah man let's just click Inner Release so I can press Fell Cleave Original edition.
I do somewhat agree on DPS BLU, but on the job as a whole, nah. It functions a lot better than synced down jobs.
I know you didn't said to gut healers, but if the people who "balanced healers" are the ones who's in charge of "balancing BLU for DF content", then honestly I wouldn't want to play BLU again.Quote:
First I never asked to gut the healers so I don't know what cute sort of protest you're trying to do there but it doesn't apply to me. If anything you'd be opposite of wrong since not only do I want blue to have more complicated mechanics but I also spent time to suggest a damage based healer.
Second obviously the kit would have to change if it became DF-able.. so I'm not going to even comment on what it can do. Although there are many options on how to do that change, some even leaving alone the limited side, like having a set of skills that have a balanced "df" variant, though that's hardly the only option.
If BLU's gonna be gutted to fit the mold of a "DF-able job" then I vote against it.
If BLU's gonna be "DF-able" with its current kit, then I'll also vote against it.
It's another Trick Attack with no "LB generation" disadvantages. Of course that's gonna be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
Which will gut the skill. I'm not up for that stuff.Quote:
White Wind has been balanced before in other final fantasy games, and as it stands would be quite situational in a current raid environment.
Extra mitigation in a double regen comp will not be turned down by any party.Quote:
There would be little reason to cast gob skin if blu was a dps in the party as it is essentially just a succor and you have a healer for that and the effects dont stack
Diamond back is an extra immunity for the party. That's really big for prog especially.Quote:
Diamond Back would be incredibly situational to use in a raid environment unless you were trying to run a solo tank strat, which presents its own quirks and issues.
Sure Farms and Clears would probably not gonna be affected as severely as Prog parties are, but it's perfectly reasonable to consider current BLU broken in terms of what utility it gives out, especially during Prog.Quote:
Also you make these declaritive statements about the ranged role being phased out, that would certainly not be the case, like what happened at the start of ShB they would be tuned in such a way they they could not outweigh the 1% dps buff for party diversity/ the limit break penalty, thats just a matter of tuning the numbers, you can't out utility a raid boss in ffxiv due to enrages.
And BLU would literally need to be gutted DPS wise to account for its utility OR BLU will need to have its Utility gutted in order to be DF-able; something I don't agree with.
One thing I could be in favor of is to have the job not generate LB at all for the party, but that's really debatable in implementation.
Off topic: I'm going to go ahead and come back to this conversation later. I'm slacking too much at work. -
06-19-2020, 04:32 AMReiMakotoNo ones asking for limited jobs to be removed here fyi, so a dungeonable version would not be "gutted" as much as balanced whist the limit aspect remains for those who enjoy that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Yes another trick wouldnt be a problem, buff stacking has existed as long as the game has
Again with "gutting". Im of the fairly controversial take of white wind would not be broken in raids (provided they put in something to account for health snapshotting) because it would almost always be more beneficial to have another healer cover the damage outside of niche settings, however I dont think a more balanced white wind would be "gutting" it either, pld and rdm and war all have access to fairly potent heals too.
Double Regen comp isn't used for prog often, and if its farm then you wouldnt make a dps waste gcds on shielding for the healers when one could just play noct
Diamondback isnt an immunity, and actually wouldnt work on a lot of the tank busters that happen these days, like stone crusher ect due to them dealing literally millions of damage if you dont swap/immunity, and unless youre wasting further gcds on froglegs and such there are very few mechanics that can be invulned without taking aggro that can't also be done with a shielded mnk if you're so determined.
Personally im fine with blu being the lowest dps in the game if it meant i could raid on it, but utility tax needn't be that harsh, you also seem to have a very loose definition of "gutted", a lot of blu's stuff could work well in a slightly nerfed setting, which wouldnt take away from the jobs identity just by the nature of them being nerfed, and if you wanted the un nerfed versions just play limited content, again we are not advocating for the removal of that. -
06-19-2020, 10:26 AMPayotzThat's actually a great idea. If there's two versions of BLU, the current BLU and a balanced BLU, and both versions of the job are actually well supported, then I'm up for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
But with SE's track record, I doubt that both will actually get the same amount of support, and eventually the current BLU or the dungeon BLU will be cut out of the game.
By gutting White Wind, I'm thinking it would turn into a Curing Waltz which you can't really spam anymore, or turn it into something that's so inconsequential like Phoenix regen.Quote:
. Im of the fairly controversial take of white wind would not be broken in raids (provided they put in something to account for health snapshotting) because it would almost always be more beneficial to have another healer cover the damage outside of niche settings, however I dont think a more balanced white wind would be "gutting" it either, pld and rdm and war all have access to fairly potent heals too.
I don't have much trust in SE that they're not gonna just turn its potency to something dumb like 80 pot, and make it a fluff skill.
And I fully believe that if they're gonna gut White Wind, they're gonna change every single BLU utility spell into something else entirely:
D.back into a Shade Shift, Manaward type of ability.
Gobskin as a 180 second 10% mitigation.
Moon flute into Raging Strikes.
BadBreath into an AoE DoT that shares a cooldown with Song of Torment
and possibly more...
or be cut because it won't be balanced or it has nothing to do with DPS BLU:
Aetherial Mimicry
Lvl 5 Death
Doom
Revenge Blast
Self Destruct
Final Sting
Launcher
Missile
4- tonze Weight
Mighty Guard
Tail Screw
Pom Cure
Exuviation (this would honestly be pretty useful for TEA tbh)
Condensed Libra (because there's no more elemental types)
Devour
Cactguard
and possibly more...
This is pretty much the main reason why I don't want BLU to be reworked into a "DF-able job", they'll literally have no choice but to rework the job to fit the mold into something else,
and I don't trust the dev team to NOT cut 50-70% of the spells just for the job to fit the DF mold and getting rid of the other two roles available to the job.
BLU's fun as it is now. I'd rather have them expand on current BLU and keep its variety rather than have it neutered into the Caster version of DNC. -
06-19-2020, 02:03 PMShougunThis is what quite a few of us have leaned to pretty quickly on, which is funny because I imagine few to none of us talked to each other but a lot of ideas became like lightning rods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
Though I do want to add, there are a lot of potential variants- just certain concepts poke through more than others. With an often point being almost none of the people who want more from blue are looking for less, in that sense that people are not trying to destroy things they're trying to add.
Very clear in some ways we just have an entirely different world view so I'll try not to line by line reply as we could just be butting heads forever but I can perhaps cover something that seems like you might not have heard from some of us "..what did you do to blue... why.." people lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
For example you mention mudra one spamming but to me that example misses that NIN has an entire other part of their kit.
Yes they have 1 spell at lower levels on Mudra but they still have their combos and buffs and such. If you tally all their 1 2 3, mudra, ogcd, utility, buffs, their kit is far more than just one spell- at level 30, meanwhile for the vast majority of players BLU, if playing optimally, is going to be 1 to 3 spells tops. The peak of BLU (that is not SYNCED to level 30, but is actually level 30) is going to be at best a 1 2 3 combo, which is far less than any regular job in terms of mechanical interest. Now of course you can say "but blue can sync back to 30 with their WHOLE KIT" and so if you do that with just solo spells it's still pretty much worse than regular ninja at 30 in terms of mechanical variety of value; however, with PF exclusive skills you would certainly get a very comparable selection of activities, but my retort to that is imagine a level 60 NIN (to make it equal to blue) going back with it's whole kit to 30- this would put it back on par with blue.
Blue gets points for like "oh at least it's more fun than healer" because of flaws in the core game, how about healers, or at least one healer, is made to be more interesting when you don't need to cure? Rather than blue being cool for something that seems like it just shows why healers have problems. Let's solve that. Or you mention the problem like kit of a level 80 ninja synced down to 30 is kinda boring and at least a level 60 blue down to 30 gets their whole bar, what if we found a way to make lower level content more exciting again? One of the things I thought might work is syncing down your abilities, so you lose no skills, and of course you'll have a slight power gain but because the skills have a potency sync on them it'll be at least a bit balanced (say for example the curve is like income tax where at certain brackets it'll be balanced down multiple times, so an 800 potency spell is still strong but hits for like 375, meanwhile the strongest skill native to that level bracket is like 300). Heck they could detect if there are synced down players like that and increase loot but also give the bosses a slight hp boost, because old content is already pretty cake- if you die fine you get echo lol.
Although these comments are also made in the light that quite a few of us, Rei and myself included at least, would think both limited and normal would be great. I've seen some people call it unlimited although I'm preference to advanced as it throws back to tactics and FFXI, with that aspect that they're a bit off and have different requirements. On a more personal note I would have even been fine with god solo blue, with preference to a normal blue.. but.. at least I'd have valued god solo, but that's just a personal level. The reason why I'd value it (god blue, even if it was 'just' limited) is because then I could readily solo any old content that cannot be normally solo'd due to mechanics that are not designed for one person, blue getting spells that just flip off those mechanics- allowing me to farm things that are pretty much dead without having to rely on groups that hardly ever form- that would have been value (also potentially doing it in a bigger smoother style, since you'd get the more ridiculous spell options like vacuuming in people for a big combo). However tying blue mage to content that hardly ever forms, so I can hardly ever form my blue mage, in a way that I'd have to wait/and do it slower and worse than if I had just unsynced it. . . no value, to me on a personal level (does what I could already do worse than I already can, and as mentioned if they wanted to do that sort of content I strongly believe they could have done it better and they didn't even have to use blue like for example using magitek content instead). Clearly a subjective thing though.
Ideally both over just one lol. So an order of preference being like: Normal + God Blue, Normal + Limited blue like we have, Normal, God Blue, anything else (I mean limited current blue provides no value, to me,- so it doesn't make the list in a list of desire, personally, and has cost a content I would have really liked to enjoy). Of course not everything has to be made for one person, like I've no interest in Ultimate but I think it's neat that it exists, the difference of course that while ultimate may delay content I'd prefer it doesn't really cost opportunity of content while blue mage is directly a loss because blue mage itself was the interest and now it's made disinterestingly. Subjective statement of course, but to show the difference from say people getting content that doesn't really fit a desired play style but whatever because many play the game, to content you had really wanted to enjoy and just don't- different experience, different setting, one is fine because you can just wait for your 'turn' and natural the other just feels like bummer, like dreams dashed on rocks. Made worse because I think even if they had to dash a dream they could have dashed it better with more panache and interesting content yet even then even they didn't 'have to' use blue mage they could have designed a different content (like custom magitek battle mechs), to make what they were going for.
As for your line about me wanting blue mage to spam missile with god like capacity, yes and no. Mostly no but also.. yes to the god part. "What the ...thal are you talking about?" lol, if you've not played Diablo 3 then I guess my example might have not been as obvious, but personally I felt limited blue would have been far more interesting designed as a series of abilities and general mechanics that play off of each other in a modular format, with some additional interlacing mechanics, such that you are actively from level 1 to level 80 building and rebuilding new and unique kits. Yes I want missile to be OP, in the limited format, but no I PERSONALLY (this is obviously where some blue players might disagree) don't think you should be spamming one spell non-stop. I think one spam spell is just bad design. So for example I might either put a unique charge mechanic to missile or add it to a overarching mechanical system that the blue mage builds to use. Both of which I've given a spin for ideas. (So yes a godly solo job would have been valued, no I didn't want to be it a one spell wonder as that sounds boring).
For example in one I used Fire Angon, a spell that tosses a spear at location dealing damage in an aoe and leaving the spear at location to then burst fire at interval which makes a stack debuff (a pretty cool skill the monster uses, obviously not what we learn). I imagined the skill for our blue mage being one that when you cast fire spells the fire spear erupted, meaning players for this spell would think about building fire element (and other spells would be uniquely designed to not be, ideally, 1 and spam). Further to get that element the boss had of tossing multiple spears your spear would have 1 charge that it would refresh once used on a cooldown; however, you could build more spears by using other spells (I left this part vague because there's lots of concepts, but I suggested things like not the element fire, or ancient blue magic (ancient blue magic being the OP stuff I wanted to be ' O P ' but not spammable because that's kind of boring)). So here you could toss down four fire spears, rain fire in all manners, like flamethrower having multiple ticks each causing an eruption, just ifrit incarnate- but you'd have to build for that AND that would not be the only interaction, there would be loads of intertwining modular concepts making each new spell to blue mage's kit be like gaining a new legendary card in your trading card game (another way I describe what I felt blue mage should have built with in mind, legendary diablo 3 affix, legendary trading card game aspects).
So yes I think solo limited should have been god like but only because you made insane combos from your spells, and not because you spammed doom. The later is honestly in my opinion kind of lame, and true currently for a lot of the leveling experience to blue, and even true in some of the PF content as well (missile spam, etc). Although of course after getting many PF exclusive spells you'll have a much closer to a normal (albeit a little bit looser on balanced) job, yet I feel what a loss it is for it being limited- why I'm not building crazy wombo combos if it has to be limited and why is it mostly linear progression? Obviously I just find the whole thing rather frustrating, lol.
I also, while personally not caring to enjoy old content hard again, wanted to think of a way to ensure god solo blue could be done that way if people so wished by allowing blue mages to use a sort of self difficulty system. Where if they used this magical chain concept (I thought in general blue mage stone should be double sides, limited being unchained, normal being fully chained) that you could gain special benefits to the dungeon at the cost of your power. So for example you could go with four other blue mages in old content everyone synced down with half their power, but unique kits that interweave with each other like you imagine from D3 legendary affixes or a complex card deck, and because of this sacrifice in power they get like double items on chests and 20% shift to rarer items (items that have a lower chance to drop become more likely and those common become less). Other options too of course like special item rewards at the end you can spend at a token shop.
Anyway just want to make sure you know that quite a few "what have you done to blue?" people are not entirely into killing the limited part, and especially myself wants blue to be more complex and thoughtful than "now that I've got 200 aoe potency all my 130 aoe potency spells are trash". This spell clearly replaces that spell is an experience I find a bit sad for it being limited, and I'd had thought it better if people were racking their brain in making game changing decisions that make them rethink and rebuild because of a new spell (and not because the carnival demands x y z and you'll fail without exactly those exact spells).
For limited I'd love it that as many spells as possible make you think "hang on, can I redesign my entire kit off of this? can I play an entirely different way? I've been using fire elemental build with cores of fire angon with ifrit enhancements for a while, but I just found out that with the pressure build up from water cannon with the extended pressure potential of whirl and the relationship of judgement bolt and water bubbles that I can.. oh my.. oh my, NEW BUILD". As currently yes you'll want to try a new spell when you get it, the novelty of using a monster spell, but hardly does it ever make a new build except for two occasions either 1) you need THAT BUILD for carnival because that's the gimmick or 2) it's clearly superior so you replace that old stuff because it's now useless. To add I also liked in FFXI you could make passives with certain combos (not forced on but made available, and can be socketed in place) and I think you could have loads of fun with that here, even wild stuff (in limited format) like gaining the undead or lich passive that makes you heal from certain damage spells and take damage from certain heal spells. Just because, and because who knows what madness you'll be able to come up with.
And to add for the Diablo 3 example if the trading card legendary example didn't help, in that game say for example you've this skill to jump around, nice movement skill, then you've another cool aoe damage stun spell, suddenly you get this piece of armor that lets you jump three times, then another that casts your aoe spell at your feet for free, then another item that gives you energy when you cast your aoe spell, then you get armor that gives you health when you spend, and.. and.. and... then.. you can see how mechanics that were fun by themselves suddenly become an entirely different new type of fun. The game begging you to break it, but then it's ready to be broken- so like here you need to break it so you could solo savage bosses at equal level, but you could if built your kits right (and it wouldn't take 30 minutes either, a reasonably farmable amount of time, once you get your kit right for the content). This is how I wanted blue mage to be god, as I said certainly not by spamming on skill- as I do think they should exist but they also should be some sort of reward / built in mechanically to other systems. Like you build up your ancient magic meter for your finale move (keeping to carnival theme), which could be like doom at 100% chance when you're in your limited form (but this build up would take longer than just trash between two bosses, so you couldn't just doom every single boss in every single dungeon one after another pressing 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1).
Also to note blue wouldn't be allowed to do current content in limited format (basically anything that isn't the expansion you're currently on, so if you own ShB you could limited anything previous of ShB once you enter or maybe even finish ShB). And again to note the balanced (chained, DF-side) would share some mechanical through put so it isn't like night and day two entirely different jobs with only a vague theme similar BUT the DF side would have a balanced and extremely tightly made gameplay loop to make it both compelling and fair- and you could even include some of the ancient magic like doom (so a spell that might be both limited and unlimited, chained and unchained), like here it could kill any trash monster at 50% hp or less or deal 800 potency and add doomed debuff that increases blue mage damage for the next x seconds (long cooldown, the 50% part never applying to boss fights, even boss trash). While it carries the similar spirit of doom obviously, everyone agrees, that a lot of spells can't be just like their monster counterpart in balanced content- but honestly this could be said about a lot of job spells in single player FF rpgs too (like where is my reflect on white mage? lol). So it should be expected for that to happen for all jobs, blue is no exception to that rule "but but they have to be exactly like the monster spells else it's not blue!" someone might say- well you tell me what SE did to fire angon and angel whisper then lol cause they're not like their classics so clearly that's not even true. -
06-19-2020, 07:36 PMReiMakotoI literally don't think white wind would need to be gutted (except maybe an mp cost increase), it would be such a situational heal in savage that 90% of the time there would be a more efficient way to heal the party/spend rescources, as when the party needs healing, blu wont have enough health to make the heal worth it over a healer covering the damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Payotz
DBacks usage case would be situational enough with such a large dps cost that again maybe with a mana cost increase it wouldnt be busted
I already explained why gobskin is fine, it doesnt stack with ast/sch shields, so would only be useful in untraditional comps and is a dps loss
Moon flute already works into blus rotation as it is it does need changing IF they cut the self destruct skills (which are the only skills i think should be cut)
Bad breath already has a dps cost for what it provides (damage down) at an extreme end Id say give a cd or damage reduction (maybe)
Onto the rest of the list-
Aetherial Mimicry- Only makes sense for limited content and the dps mimicry buff is actually just arbitrarily over powered as hell
Lvl 5 Death- Reduce the kill percentage to 25% chance instead of 90%, it already has a 5 min cd and only works on trash/adds, killing 1/4 enemies in trash is powerful but not broken
Revenge Blast- Would never see use outside of extreme niches of parse runs the healers arn't going to leave you specifically on low enough health to use it well
Doom/Missle ect. I actually dont think these are problem skills at all 90% of the the time it only works on trash, and the 10% of the times its either adds that have a 10s lifespan, or rarely minibosses. To "balance" it add a line that for "powerful foes" chance of hitting is halved, statistically that means it would on average take as long to kill the boss with doom as it would to just kill it normally.
Already Spoke about doom/self destruct
4 Tonze Weight- Isn't overpowered, like at all, its actually pretty bad so i dont see the issue
Mighty Guard- There is almost no situation where you would want a blu tank over a regular tank, MG is the equivalent of old titan egi, and we all saw how much use that got.
Pom Cure- Ver Cure/ clemency say hi, we know how much they're used
Exuviate- Selenes AOE cleanse was removed from the game because it was so situational it never got used, just cos it would get milage in TEA doesnt mean it would be good
Condensed Libra- This skill is actually terrible, If only 1 person will benefit from it its a dps loss, and in the context of BLU raiding its a very tiny dps increase for the main tank (in the realms of 300-500 potency every 30s)
Devour- Skill isnt broken, no idea why you would cut it
Cactguard- Would never be used, wasting a gcd for mitigation the tank doesnt need
50-70% of blus skills are repeats/ useless skills anyway so they are already "cut" in the sense that theyres no reason you should use it, I'll add one more spell to your list however: Rams Voice would have to have the freeze duration nerfed to WHM holy levels, which I don't see as an issue personally as having a dps version of whm holy would be sick. -
06-19-2020, 08:35 PMAvidria
I keep forgetting I have BLU capped and geared. :/
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06-20-2020, 12:10 AMHazama999
I keep forgetting BLU exists.
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06-22-2020, 03:00 PMMonsutaMan
Limited Jobs are not terrible, SE is simply terrible at making jobs.
The old team is still trying to figure XI BST out, so if that is any indication of how long this can take.. -
06-22-2020, 11:46 PMDelis
I like to think that Yoshi didn't want Blue Mage in game, but everyone kept bugging him about, so he decided to troll everyone.
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10-02-2020, 09:17 PMtyranical69
Limited Job needs to be removed from the game and let Blue Mage be a real job!!!
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10-04-2020, 08:29 AMRaikai
Of course that BLU being able to fill in a regular job would be amazing, but I don't hate the concept of Limited Job as a niche playstyle... My big gripe is how it is implemented. A personal brainstorm on how BLU could become better while still filling this Limited Job slot:
1) BLU should be level capped 1 expansion prior to the current one. This means it can be slightly more useful in farming or doing open world things that aren't that old;
2) The Deep Dungeons are a perfect fit for BLU - doing them solo;
3) Same thing for Eureka, in case BLU would cap at 70. Even the idea of the elemental wheel feels very cohesive with the nature of Blue Magic;
4) It should have its own random daily roulette, with relevant rewards like the others;
5) In the same note, the dungeons in the BLU Journal should have a queue-able function as well, like the regular dungeons in the Duty Finder;
6) Aetherial Mimicry should be something available in the initial Job quests, since it's a staple to play well the job in a group setting;
7) The tank setting should be looked upon, as it is unnecessarily hard;
8) Masked Carnivale gets old really fast. If you don't need seals and have everything from there, there's no reason to keep doing it. An idea for it should be some type of random reward for weekly completion, like the Wondrous Tails journal.
9) I don't know if it would work, or how it could work, but I keep thinking that the Masked Carnivale could be interesting for a BLUxBLU pvp combat. -
10-06-2020, 04:04 AMTeraTyrantShadic
Implementing Limited Job from the very start was a bad idea to begin with even if you dish out positive ideas or come up with interesting suggestions it will either make a copy of an already existing system more complicated and all of the 'Limited Job Exclusive Content' is only related to that one specific job. Just stop trying to defend the horrible system, all Limited Jobs do is cap a job at a specific level and prevent it from accessing certain duties. That is all, it doesn't provide Masked carnival or all of Blue Mage activities because in order for those to exist you need Blue Mage, not limited job.
So imagine this, Blue Mage is implemented normally like any other job and we have masked carnival, blue mage log and the achievements for morbol mount and title. We already have the raid and trials for the title and morbol achievement, we already have the dungeon and it can fit any class or party composition. As for Masked carnival it'll be the exclusive thing and yet it still doesn't rely on Limited Job as it only relies on having the Blue Mage Job. All of these content, you don't need limited job. If it was implemented normally you can still do it. Limited Job is just there to test the waters and to piss people off.
So I'll say it again Limited Job system was and still is a mistake, as it doesn't provide anything to the table other than restricting a job to be playable in all content and to make it more enjoyable. Remember Summoner's titan tanking Ramuh? What did they do? They nerfed it, no fun allowed. Its the same feeling as that, we give you Blue Mage but you won't have fun with it in the long run. We'll just use it as a hype machine to generate more sub count. -
10-07-2020, 03:22 AMomeganova45
Blue Mage is fun at first! Though... I really can't find anyone to play with me sadly ;3; Even leveling Blue Mage feels like a chore. I only have 8 spells and I am Level 15 and really I can't participate it in a normal dungeon made me drop the job entirely, it really isn't worth my time. I would have invested more time into it, but there anyone rarely playing it on my server.
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10-09-2020, 01:17 AMMariel_Crystallieyeah the current problem about "Limited Job" is you need play with friend to enjoy the whole content of this job. also for the Achievement you need a proper team that understand End Game content which not casual friendly either. I hope they could remove the Limited Job system overall and just make it as a normal job like usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by omeganova45
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10-09-2020, 01:23 AMJiSH
I agree, before it was released i was so ready to main a new caster Job, but it turns out to be a limited "solo job", for me it's just a waste of resource which could be taken to making an actual proper job instead.
Getting all the skills are just not fun, where you have to look for other people to help you so you can get the skill guaranteed, and it's a huge time sink for just a "side" content.
I'd say they should rework the whole system, even making it both a normal and limited job also works. -
10-09-2020, 01:37 AMSennaLaurenAs someone who will sometimes level solely through fate cause i wanna take it slow and solo stuff, i was pretty excited when they announced that Blu will be for solo content. But it's so far from it, outside of carnival. Skills requires a full pt, and the new reward is way more hc than most people bother to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by JiSH
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10-09-2020, 02:15 AMJiSH
yeah, from how i view it, it kinda have an identity crisis, because it was designed as a side content/casual content but the current final achievement is stupidly hardcore, it's okay if it was designed for raiders in the first place, but this is supposed to be designed for the casuals/solo players, even some raiders can't clear synced Brute Justice.
if that's what they're going for in the end, might as well just make it a normal job. -
10-09-2020, 02:23 AMSennaLauren
yes, i don't mind if it was a time sink as a solo content as advertised, but carnival is so easy to do, that it can be done in a single evening, and what's worse is that certain carnival level needs skills from dungeons. IMO they should have made it that blu get the skill at a 100% rate while solo, while buffing it that we can solo it as a blu. At this point, not only are we not able to queue blu in duty finder, we aren't strong enough to do solo with it even if we wanna do it with the lower % chance of getting the skills.
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10-09-2020, 04:13 AMVolsungrqueueing in df should be the bare minimum if they wanna make it multiplayer, and should tune the job more if they wanna make it solo. they make the achievement so grand yet the process to get there is a hassle. hope they turn it into real job next expQuote:
Originally Posted by SennaLauren
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10-09-2020, 05:39 AMShougunYeah blue mage is not really a solo job. I find the claim misleading although I believe it could be accidental / mistake over malice / preempted, like perhaps there were too many people in the kitchen cooking or some internal miscommunication.Quote:
Originally Posted by SennaLauren
In order to make valuable progression to your job you MUST party either through charity or through PF. MUST. Blue Mage is too weak to solo progress through that content (and taking 45 minutes to do something doesn't count lol "but I can cast white wind 50000 times while using my ogcd to kill a primal" person)
Sure you can use the half cooked version with only solo-learn-able skills, but who in full clarity would call a job that is half complete in a state of solo a solo job? That seems like a serious mistake.
Blue Mage is a PF job, with some solo attributes. Our current normal jobs are more solo oriented than Blue Mage. With our current jobs you can make a complete progression of the job solo as well as enjoy a far wider range of content, also solo. You /cannot/ complete your blue mage without a party.
I don't believe SE had any malice or trying to pull the wool over the eyes of players or anything- but when you can say our current jobs are more solo focused than the job supposedly made with solo concepts in mind... it seems like very off and uncomfortable, like we're being lied to (again I don't believe SE would do that, or at least I hope not, but the feeling I get from the situation is very much not a good one, like if your best friend said something that hurt your feelings but you knew they weren't try to to lol).
This unfortunately travels to many other points of why I think Blue Mage really needs a hard, very hard, look at it's design and then for someone to reintroduce the job (that doesn't mean it HAS to be dalamud, although I'd probably be happy if it was lol), but that it feels like they need to start their communication slate over again because there is way too much mud and blood in the water.
I'll give a few examples:
First the obvious one, they said it's a designed for solo play yet in order to gain core parts of your job that make it go from 3 button spam to something vaguely similar to actual job gameplay you MUST party. There is also party exclusive content. Made worse with the mount that is party exclusive content. Carnival offering only a common token that can be obtained everywhere and a few spells for blue mage, the amount of spells obtained by force solo vs force party is dramatically in the favor of party. This screams "not designed for solo, but has some solo aspects", especially given the context of our own current jobs and the party exclusive rewards / mechanical progression of your job. I would also say carnival is not designed with the most interesting parts of blue mage in mind either, to further nail in that "this job wasn't made with solo focus/primary care" and that carnival would probably have been more fun if it did involve the more interesting parts of the job (which is both bad and further shows how the job wasn't primarily designed solo, core pieces offed into PF exclusivity, and that the job could use someone sitting down and organizing it out and hammering out it's design philosophy- even if it's not into my favor).
Second, they said they don't want to make blue mage normal because they want to give players the true to power original spells. Then they promptly nerfed those true to power original spells. Then they gave players one of the worst versions to exist in the FF series of Angel's Breath, and they avoided a few spells true to form effects like Fire Angon. This is made more painful by the fact that most of these spells they give players are just potency color shifts and or a largely unimpressive status debuff. Meanwhile they keep the design that the job /has/ to party in order to become interesting, and they even added a spell that /forced/ a holy trinity just like our normal jobs so they could balance party finder content. This job is clearly designed for party finder, and I think that's a bad thing (for this job, not that there is a job out there that was made for PF).
Third, they said they didn't want to make blue mage not be allowed in groups because of missing spells so they made it like this. Then they require you to have certain spells to do content (like the glower), and they set up the job with a party focus meaning that they put the job into a situation that they claimed they didn't want to do.
All three reasons they said they went a different direction they then partially or entirely contradict themselves. Blue's current design story is very frustrating and seems confused and forced. I don't think they had as much fun as they could have, and I don't think it was for the best of the job- if their original goal was to be "heart of blue mage" wild child dreams. There is clearly a finger on the scale of design because the ultimate goal was to put it into PF.
There are some more minor ones as we go along but those three are core reasons why they made blue as they way they did and yet every single core issue they gave us seems like they failed to follow through, or just didn't at all. Ultimately it reads as though "we made blue the way we did because because and everything else we say is just us trying to cover why we did it because obviously our reasons are not core design philosophies to the job". I know it sounds a bit harsh and I want to reiterate I don't think SE was trying to pull wool or be evil or anything like that, and it could have been someone's pet project that they worked on in their very seldom free time, there are lots of reasons why, but I want to bold underline and generally be upset (lol) that what they said they wanted to achieve, what they said they couldn't achieve, it all seems horribly off- it all feels like I'm being lied to (again.. I don't say SE is attempting malice, I am saying how I feel about what SE has said and then done, it feels bad).
With the finale of it all that I think while it is fine if they wanted to design some sort of special PARTY finder focused content (it's not my style, I'd not want to play it, but this game is made for more than just one person and so thank goodness they've diversity right?), of course they made it with some side solo stuff, the problem to me though is using blue mage for 'that' design focus would be one of the worst candidates for that focus. Not only due to the issue of progression put onto the whim of the party finder, made worse that this content doesn't have much value so it's a subsection of a subsection of a whim, with progression that promotes not going back and having to have many pieces. Then made worse that if they focus on their party side they will have to balance skills to party content even though they claim they didn't want to- just like how angel whisper is the worst angel whisper FF has seen, you can clearly see balance decisions made for the job for PF content. Just like people claim it can't be DF if you want true blue then it also can't be designed around PF, if you wanted true and wild blue it MUST be designed for solo, actually honest to goodness design for solo. But I don't even think that would make the best blue, as I believe the most fun blue would be one that makes every single spell a mental treat like gaining new cards in a hyper aggressive active trading card game (where each card is valuable, skip all the trash cards). Blue Mage I actually believe could make good use out of being both normal and limited, but that limited side should be solo focused, actually solo designed, OR be designed in such a way that they can obtain those skills through DF. I also think there could be a lot of good fun out of many USEFUL skills and even more if they combined in interesting ways like Diablo 3 legendary affixes, and even further if they added other layers like getting certain skills unlocked equip-able passives and such (making the hunt for each new spell an entirely valuable experience, in the now and in the future the spell would be of potential value- unlike having a bunch of solo skills that are different colors of the same damage).
A limited PF focused content that would do well I think is magitek mech content, as it would leave progression in a very smooth way- unlike having to go back and collect a lot of important skills in order to be wanted in a party (which is something they said they didn't want blue mage to do and then did it to blue mage anyways). See the issue with PF blue mage is you leave the progression of your job to the whims of the server, and unless you're going to do some sort of convoluted putting important monsters into the carnival as a sort of soft-progression then many blue mages are going to be hurting if they didn't join in during the hot part of the patch, and even if they join they might be in the wrong wave of excitement (if people who play are those who don't want to go back, and going back is charity, there is no reason for some one to go back besides to be a nice person). Meanwhile if you did mech content you could very well design an entirely new approach to combat (don't need the trinity), while providing the team a very powerful flexible way to produce progression content (as the pieces could be horizontally designed over being strictly ilvl, or horizontal-lite at least- meaning they could produce content that is easy to get into the group but difficult to master and provides an entirely fresh take, see even with blue who does have some unique gimmicks they've already put it right back into the classic trinity, that fresh flavor already becoming very similar as before but way more restricted). -
10-09-2020, 07:14 AMwereotterHonestly, it was kind of the case that when it comes to this game, blue mage put the developers into a lose-lose-lose situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JiSH
Think of it:
Blue mage was a widely requested job, so not adding it to the game was a loss since they weren't adding a job that's been a staple of the game and wildly popular.
If they added it like a normal job, they would have had to severely limit its spells and potentially make it so that they're either not learned from monsters (which goes against the identity of the job) or would have to be learned from monsters in instanced battles during job quests (and with how many people don't do their job quests this opens up other issues) Not to mention that the extremely limited number of spells would have people complaining that they can't use specific spells they see enemies in the field use. Effectively we'd see this option end up with "not being a real blue mage"
So they chose the limited job system. Also a failing from the perspective of many players, but it gave us the ability to have most our spells learned from monsters, expand the number of spells, and not worry about how all those extra options might compare in balance to other casting jobs. Effectively giving us the most true to history implementation of the job while having to restrict it to not being able to play with others... which also upset people.
So really there's just no winning around this job, and I can't see a way they can make any adjustment that will make everyone happy. -
10-09-2020, 07:20 AMMariel_CrystallieThey could make it as normal job if they want. I mean if you want all BLU current skill animation you can use it as skill glamour or something. but then you can still have the current effect skill ONLY for carnival. then its a win win solution for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
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10-09-2020, 07:32 AMJiSH
@Shougun as i can't quote him because of 3000 characters limitation
All points are very true, for me it looks like the current Blue Mage concept is very confused with itself, in one side they're a solo content with the Carnivale, on the other side, the "ultimate" achievement we can get from this currently is definitely a group contant, which personally i think is even harder than normal savage content in a way, with how hard it is to Tank as a Blue Mage in a raid with all the tank swappings you have to do and no QoL skills like provoke and shirk. I think the solution is they should pick one direction instead of trying to "overdevelop" the job, either make it full solo, or full group content.
There's also the problem with how a lot of skills are just a glam of the other skills, or how they have too many skills for their own good, but only a few are actually useful in a raid situation where you have to optimize everything, the element and the "holy trinity Blue Mage" concept is interesting, but ultimately impractical if they're going to ever let Blue Mage in PF with other normal jobs, at least with their current skills, they'll just end up as a Caster DPS and nothing else, which nullifies it's uniqueness, but personally, if they just decide to make it a normal job, it's not a bad idea to just make it a Caster DPS.
at the end of the day, i think they should really reconsider the whole concept of the limited job over and over again, and make transition on how to make it a normal instead of making it a "limited" one but with confused identity. -
10-09-2020, 07:47 AMJiSHYeah you're right, you can't really make everyone happy, but i think making it a normal job would open a new window for people who haven't tried it, personally i'd say streamlining the whole skill system and make it like other jobs would work, and also making the skills just locked behind job quests(where you have to learn skills from instanced monsters) also works because in the end people will do their job quests if they really want to use the full potential of the job, also since SE is removing the job quest system(at least for now in ShB), it'll be a lot easier to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
But, this might upset people who liked who diverse the Blue Mage skills were(again, we can't make everyone happy lol), so i think keeping the current skill system would work ONLY IF they make a hard work of balancing all the skills(potency, effects, everything).
I'd say making Blue Mage a normal job is possible but it's just really hard to do, pretty sure YoshiP said they decided on Limited Job because balancing Blue Mage will be very hard(and with how Blue Mage currenlty is, yeah it IS very hard to do), but i don't think it's impossible if they put their brain and time into it. New expansion is in like what, around 9 more months? i think it'll be a good time to introduce a revamped Blue Mage. -
10-09-2020, 07:59 AMVolsungrthis would be the best scenario were Blue mage were tuned to a dps job, however seeing how they botched the whole egi-glamour thing from all the way back in HW, it's probably not possible for now since they have much more thing to handle (unless they use the assets that's already in game). alternatively and / or additionally, you can also makes bluemage a 2-route job like sch/smn. each have their own skillset taken from the monster in the game. That way it can be a legit job, and have ranges of different spell. or you can share it but tune the skill to be based on int/mind just so it doesn't get too overpowered. dps job having healing skill and healing job having strong damaging skills isn't unheard of these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariel_Crystallie
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10-09-2020, 08:52 AMTeraTyrantShadicThere is a solution to adding Blue Mage into the game, but the answer is not as easy as many thought even when I thought at first it was an easy solution but it gets extremely complicated. To simplify it, it is a gamble development with huge risk but with huge reward. Unfortunately they went the wrong route and ignored the better idea. To elaborate, you can allow Blue Mage to learn from monsters and participate as a normal job however a new set of restrictions to duty finder has to come into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by wereotter
At the moment it is level and gear item limit, if Blue Mage were to be added they need a code to specifically check the amount of spell the players has while making a restriction to say 'You need X amount of spells'. Then comes another condition where you need specific essential spells, right now with Blue Mage Spell Book interface without any guide to lookup whatsoever the only way to figure out where the spells are, is through location or where to obtain them and that is the only information to go on by. I get that in most games with Blue Mage you have to go out of your way to find the spells themselves, but we live in the age of information where when someone finds a spell they'll report it or post it on a social network app or a resource wiki site. Not just that but the interface has to be user friendly with newer players which can go against the fun of spell hunting as a Blue Mage since they may have to reveal which mob gives the spell or what the spell name is called. Which all leads back to the essential spell condition, because like any roulette some conditions are listed 'Must have beaten ???? once' which can be confusing for some if they are fresh and new to the game. If that condition were to be applied for Blue Mage specific spell condition then they have to name the spell as well as reveal info on where to get said spell plus putting indicators on which mobs holds the spell itself. These 2 conditions can allow it to participate it in Duty Finder Normally, however the second condition poses a problem where 'Do we reveal the name of a specific spell, location and the mob to obtain making it easier for the players to try and find the spells necessary to participate in normal content' or 'Let them figure it out themselves and spend countless hours of guesswork on where the spells are'.
Due to the second condition it brings another problem, do we make learning spells RNG or guarantee? Cause if we go by RNG people can miss out on the spell and ignore the mob not realizing the mob has a Blue Mage spell. The 100% learn rate in groups is the right way to go since the class cannot solo any duties alone (When synced), should it be applied to the overworld? In my opinion it should, unlike The FF series (mainly the single player ones) you can take your time and there is no rush (Speed running doesn't count, that is either a competition or an event. Whereas the situation I am discussing is through normal playthrough.). In FFXI however it is somewhat necessary but it has armor mainly the Artifact hand armor (Magus Bazubands till Assimilator's Bazubands +3) that allows you to have at max a 90% chance learn rate if fully upgraded making it a near guarantee to learn Blue Mage spells. In FFXIV the approach could have been different as we are living in a time where people have jobs and it is better to look at them as well and make spells 100% guarantee learn rate for overworld. Since we are already having problem with time in Party Finder Looking for Blue Mages (I'll talk more on that later) not just that but imagine without a fan site having the information, you could have missed out on some spells that can be learned earlier on in the early levels before you hit level 15.
Actually your job quest reminded me that nearly all of the quests in Blue Mage involve in killing enemies, it was a wasted opportunity that they could have made it easier to learn spells this way as well, an example would be Blue Gold, the mob itself does Drill cannon and easy way of learning Drill Cannon with job quest itself while in North Thanalan it is from a level 49 mob both ways are viable. However it goes to show that it was a missed opportunity with the quests where Martin would have tasked you of killing a mob for coin, all in the while the mob teaches you a new move while keeping to the story itself. However it then comes to the problem of 'Will the player quickly kill the mob before it could even cast its spell?' The answer would be yes and the overworld option is there for it in case the players kill the mob too quickly. To prevent such occurrences they need to put an indicator but that contradicts with Blue Mage as you're meant to hunt for the spell, not spoofed to you. Which is why they say it goes against the job fantasy. In all honesty a bit of job fantasy has to be sacrificed to make it normal in the game and the price to pay such a sacrifice isn't big if anything it'll be a quality of life improvement as a class. Making the job more appealing for newer players.
Does that mean they have to remove the identity of Blue Mage where it is about learning from monsters and being able to switch spells? No, because these two are the core identity of Blue Mage. Hunting the spells is part of the fun of Blue Mage, but what it all comes down to at the end of the day is that we have to sacrifice a bit of fun to make it viable in normal participation. In all honesty I wouldn't mind, in fact it'll make it more possible for Blue Mage to be in normal participation and party composition if they kept the two main core of Blue Mage being that it can switch spells and learn from monsters. The third most important part is the ability to switch roles, which then brings in more questions of "Do we let Blue Mage be the first Omni Role Job in FFXIV". To that I say, yes because then you can start experimenting with the other classes like a Healer Red Mage, or a DPS Dark Knight it can really start to open up more creative ideas for the other jobs as well. The last part of the priority is find the spells themselves, which in all honesty what works in single player games doesn't work in MMO. FFXI knew that and cut some of the spells, made it fit to its own game and it worked for them. wheres in FFXIV they tried to copy the first iteration of Blue Mage that being from FFV. FFV was the first one to give birth to the rise of Blue Mage however it isn't the best iteration out of the series there's plenty of other games to take inspiration from (During and before Level 50 Blue Mage release), but I think they focused far too much on trying to make it feel like this Blue Mage is FFV. FFXI did its own thing with its own Blue Mage lore and theme and instead of the duelist style they went like Arabic style to match with the expansion's theme Treasures of Aht Urghan (ToAU), plus its lore is fascinating where Blue Mage absorb the soul of their enemies to learn their power, however you could lose control of that power and become a monster yourself. FFXIV could have done that and gave its own lore and work from there in which it did. Blue Magic is taught somewhere far west of Limsa Lominsa far across the sea where the Whalaqee Tribe practice the magic and martin brought it over to sell the job crystals and teach people about Blue Magic while earning some gil on the side. I mean we have a lore to boot it, but the armor is that of a duelist in which is more related to FFV since FFXIV knows about Azulmagia (which I dunno how nor do I know or remember how they recognize a FFV boss and put it into FFXIV lore wise...).
Point being, FFXIV could have made their own version Blue Mage that can participate normally so long they kept the two main identity of the job. They can sacrifice it a bit for the sake of convenience and quality of life improvements, so long the two core being learning from monsters and being able to switch spells are kept and untouched. Because right now playing Blue Mage is like Playing Black mage where you spam certain spells over and over again until it is time to unleash your powerful spells on enemies which is Xenoglossy or Foul using a Polyglot. What Blue Mage need right now is a Job gauge to actually make it viable in FFXIV cause I have said it in another post, FFXIV added Job Gauge a unique thing to FFXIV and not in any other game. Sure FFXI has the TP gauge but that is vastly different from FFXIV's Job gauge as each gauge is unique and tailored to each job specifically. If we want Blue Mage as a normal job then a good inspiration to take from in FF8 Quistis Trepe a Character that uses Blue Magic as her Limit Break, the higher the limit break stored the stronger the blue magic. -
10-09-2020, 10:14 AMJiSHthis would be an easy fix if they just make the story where Martin tells us to learn specific skills in specific job quest, make an instanced/overworld quest monster spawn(the one that you have to go into a circle to make the monster spawn), and make the monster keep respawning until we get the skill, and make learning the skill a requirement to complete the job quest, it's a lot easier to do, and they should've done this for a lot of the essential skills, it's a missed opportunity indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by TeraTyrantShadic
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10-09-2020, 10:59 AMUrsa_Vonfiebryd
I think it's fun and I enjoy the comedy of it. Also doing a full blu run of Syrcus Tower was pretty epic and while it was difficult, it was also rewarding. I think the reason BLU is so 'limited' was because for it to be a real contender it would have to lose some of what makes it unique to make it a viable job for current content. There's no real rhythm to it. Just... Bristle/Whistle + skill, DoT, ad infinitum. I think in the end it would end up like Redmage: a job that's a mix of two that we already have. Yay.
It could be better but I'm enjoying what there is so far. At the very least blu log encourages PF parties for full blu clears. Those are always fun. Carnival is meh for me. I wish less of the spells were locked behind it. -
10-09-2020, 11:14 AMShadow_Sama
I think at this point, Square Enix should make a poll on the Lodestone website and put up a vote and ask the community itself. Should Blue Mage remain a limited job? Or should it be converted to a normal job? Along with an explanation of the implications of both paths. Sometimes, it's best to see what the community thinks collectively to see how to proceed forward. They did this before during A Realm Reborn about unreleased job classes. I don't see why they can't do it again.
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10-09-2020, 11:39 AMVolsungri remember that! and i think that is a great idea. At the very least it opens a possibility for blue mage to be one of the good thing this game has to offer because currently it's one of the, dare I say, less appealing content in FFXIV right now. i was thinking of doing blue mage on the off-raid patch but i missed the hype train. ever since then i've been against the idea, just because after every new update regarding blue mage, once you missed the train you're gonna have a hard timeQuote:
Originally Posted by Shadow_Sama
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10-09-2020, 11:39 AMAlysella
There is no reason for a limited job in the first place anyway. FYI Blue mage now is just for memes and its actually hard to find parties to do the blue mage contents. They are just wasting resources to make more "blue mage only" contents and should just make it to normal jobs and adjust things for it