When will we get the PVP system for PVE ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Having oGCDs that are rarely usable is bad, because they waste space.

But having 6+ weaponskills that cannot be used except during every third to fourth GCD is good, because "they're combos"?

---

And still get more used than the most used oGCD skill

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Missing the point entirely.

I find it more engaging and less boring/mind-numbing to have multiple buttons to press; it has nothing to do with “difficulty”, since I don’t find it particularly difficult to press the amount of buttons we have now. I do not want condensed combos, and neither do a lot of other posters here. It’s fine if they want to make it an optional feature rather than a mandatory one like it is in the new PvP. But make it mandatory, and I doubt I’ll enjoy PvE content where I can do an entire job’s opener/rotation in 3 buttons or less.

---

If there would be something wrong with toolkits actually looking only as complex as they are, then isn't that an issue first and foremost with the toolkits themselves?

Why is the warped mirror so preferable to actual complexity? Why curtail our chances to see more engaging decisions behind our rotations just to protect the imitation of dynamics or breadth across our button-flow? When did pretense become more important than actual depth of play available? Is our goal here to maximize the appearance of depth while minimizing actual difficulty?

You say it has nothing with difficulty, but there are only so many buttons available to maintain a comfortable keyspace or retain impact across individual ability decisions; what bloat we purposely leave restricts ability to create anything meaningful in future additions, and leaves precedent for wasteful and poorly-integrated design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If there would be something wrong with toolkits actually looking only as complex as they are, then isn't that an issue first and foremost with the toolkits themselves?

Why is the warped mirror so preferable to actual complexity? Why curtail our chances to see more engaging decisions behind our rotations just to protect the imitation of dynamics or breadth across our button-flow? When did pretense become more important than actual depth of play available? Is our goal here to maximize the appearance of depth while minimizing actual difficulty?

You say it has nothing with difficulty, but there are only so many buttons available to maintain a comfortable keyspace or retain impact across individual ability decisions; what bloat we purposely leave restricts ability to create anything meaningful in future additions, and leaves precedent for wasteful and poorly-integrated design.

---

I’m sorry, I fail to see how “in-depth” a system is where all my buttons are condensed into pressing the same button 3 times in a row, and then pressing another button 3 times in a row, and then another button 3 times in a row, and so on. How is that “complex”? How is that “in-depth”? I’m not saying the current system is complex, nor am I saying it’s “in-depth”; I’m saying I find it more mentally engaging—engaging, not complex—to be able to press multiple buttons, rather than the same button 3 times in a row. A PvP-like system of condensed combos is mind-numbing in my opinion; I would check out mentally pretty quickly with such a system.

There are still skills that can be trimmed from job’s toolkits in future expansions. Quite honestly, since they got rid of the damage behind Repelling Shot, it’s not even on my bar. I can “repel” myself away from a boss/melee-distance AOE (e.g., “Delta Attack” in V4S) by using my analog stick. Skills that bind enemies like RDM’s Tether and BLM’s Freeze are so poor/useless in party or endgame content that a lot of people don’t even use them. Straighter Shot procs on BRD could be changed to Refulgent Arrow to reduce button bloat, even though BRD doesn’t have button bloat.

To create “anything meaningful in future additions” doesn’t necessarily mean “add more skills”. Jobs can be made “more meaningful” or “more interesting” without having to add 5 new abilities every expansion.

Omg. This is really getting annoying.

NO. NO. NO.

End the non-sense already please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m sorry, I fail to see how “in-depth” a system is where all my buttons are condensed into pressing the same button 3 times in a row, and then pressing another button 3 times in a row, and then another button 3 times in a row, and so on. How is that “complex”? How is that “in-depth”? I’m not saying the current system is complex, nor am I saying it’s “in-depth”; I’m saying I find it more mentally engaging—engaging, not complex—to be able to press multiple buttons, rather than the same button 3 times in a row. A PvP-like system of condensed combos is mind-numbing in my opinion; I would check out mentally pretty quickly with such a system.

There are still skills that can be trimmed from job’s toolkits in future expansions. Quite honestly, since they got rid of the damage behind Repelling Shot, it’s not even on my bar. I can “repel” myself away from a boss/melee-distance AOE (e.g., “Delta Attack” in V4S) by using my analog stick. Skills that bind enemies like RDM’s Tether and BLM’s Freeze are so poor/useless in party or endgame content that a lot of people don’t even use them.

To create “anything meaningful in future additions” doesn’t necessarily mean “add more skills”. Jobs can be made “more meaningful” or “more interesting” without having to add 5 new abilities every expansion.

---

I agree completely that traits, new mechanics, new systems, etc., can add interest and/or meaning just as well as new abilities, but why would you choose to take skills that have been left disused because their bloat was considered acceptable out back and shoot them rather than fixing those skills, and ensuring that whatever you have on your bar has some definite usefulness for what you're going to be doing -- not by cutting it down to the fewest options possible, however many buttons may then be spent on them, but by ensuring that each has impact -- over fixing the bloat that is left not only situational, but rotationally locked out? (Not to say you can't do both, of course.)

I have never said that condensing buttons down to their actual number of choices increases complexity. I said it doesn't waste buttons, and therefore one has more buttons with which to interact with actual complexity. Will button count be the sole determiner of interactions possible? Not remotely -- as bloat and painfully barebone undermechanics have already shown. But, it does at least allow the situation to be improved upon, rather than axing yet more skills with unintendedly large side effects (such as the entire loss of modular control over Monk forms when Fracture and Touch of Death were removed) when push comes to shove and button-space is still considered primarily to be one-to-one with ability count, rather than accessible ability count (current choices and trackers only).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

The same way that making the "PVP," system for Monk would be an absolute mess, since Perfect Balance is not simply, "mash the final button in your combo chain."

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

So MNK is excluded?

---

Adressed at least 10 pages ago...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Why should we need more than one button for offensive oGCDs then?

---

Because that would reduce the number of skills, since oGCD are not tied to each other. OR, you find a system so that you can put several oGCD in the same slot while still keeping all viable options you have to use them in any order at any time. Go on, make your suggestion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I find it more engaging and less boring/mind-numbing to have multiple buttons to press;

---

Even if it means reducing the room for potential new abilities that would actually deeped the gameplay of your job ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Adressed at least 10 pages ago...

---

Improperly. If perfect balance remains the way it is, consolidating the combos is impossible for Monk. You can't select which button to press within the combo unless you have separate buttons for it, like we do now. Good luck convincing SE to even touch Perfect Balance, they haven't in 4 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because that would reduce the number of skills, since oGCD are not tied to each other. OR, you find a system so that you can put several oGCD in the same slot while still keeping all viable options you have to use them in any order at any time. Go on, make your suggestion.

---

That is ultimately irrelevant. Arguing about reducing skills is a half-measure. Skills are just buttons to press the same way each step in a combo is. People are whining that combos should be consolidated because of button bloat. I simply reminded them that anyone can apply "remove <blank>" for button bloat. As it's been repeated multiple times, pressing different buttons in a row is not difficult nor does it require skill, so it means that we don't need multiple buttons for offensive oGCDs either. Adding more offensive oGCDs does not "deepen" the experience either, nor make it more difficult. They've already turned away from buff-happy oGCDs, that's why they got rid of so many crossclasses. Though keep ignoring that point of my post I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Even if it means reducing the room for potential new abilities that would actually deeped the gameplay of your job ?

---

This.

Why do people think Ruin4 replaces Ruin2 when it procs? To safe buttons without affecting game play too much (if at all).
I mean, what is R2->R4 when you look at it closely?

A boosted version of a GCD you got by a proc replaces a less favorable GCD, you don't want to use while you have that proc. This is essentially the same as a condensed combo.
A combo is just a GCD with a 100% 10s proc boosting another GCD, making the former GCD less favorable, i.e. you don't want to use while you have that combo proc running

Would people had been more happy with Ruin4 as a seperate ability to put on the hotbar with (50 pot; 200 pot when you get the proc) instead of the current design, because it would be more engaging to have to press a different button for R4 instead of your R2 button?

Why are people then praising this design specifically?

And what if placing R4 on a different button would have meant that we don't get Aetherpact to stay the same in regards to number of slots needed?


Condensed GCDs are already in place. Ruin2->Ruin4 for example.
Higanbana/Mangetsu/Midare Setsugekka is another one: They could have also added those three GCDs as abilities you have to put on the hotbar, but ofc with the same requirements in place, i.e.
Higanbana (only useable with exactly 1 Sen)
Mangetsu (only useable with exactly 2 Sen)
Midare Setsugekka (only useable with exactly 3 Sen)

Wow, that would be totally great, right? So engaging.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Neophyte

This.

Why do people think Ruin4 replaces Ruin2 when it procs? To safe buttons without affecting game play too much (if at all).
I mean, what is R2->R4 when you look at it closely?

A boosted version of a GCD you got by a proc replaces a less favorable GCD, you don't want to use while you have that proc. This is essentially the same as a condensed combo.
A combo is just a GCD with a 100% 10s proc boosting another GCD, making the former GCD less favorable, i.e. you don't want to use while you have that combo proc running

Would people had been more happy with Ruin4 as a seperate ability to put on the hotbar with (50 pot; 200 pot when you get the proc) instead of the current design, because it would be more engaging to have to press a different button for R4 instead of your R2 button?

Why are people then praising this design specifically?

And what if placing R4 on a different button would have meant that we don't get Aetherpact to stay the same in regards to number of slots needed?


Condensed GCDs are already in place. Ruin2->Ruin4 for example.
Higanbana/Mangetsu/Midare Setsugekka is another one: They could have also added those three GCDs as abilities you have to put on the hotbar, but ofc with the same requirements in place, i.e.
Higanbana (only useable with exactly 1 Sen)
Mangetsu (only useable with exactly 2 Sen)
Midare Setsugekka (only useable with exactly 3 Sen)

Wow, that would be totally great, right? So engaging.

---

Ninja ninjutsu as well....
You've got, 7 different skills condensed into 4 buttons...

If they didn't have multiple combinations doing the same ninjutsu they could have....
Hmm...

3 single step ninjutsu
6 two step ninjutsu without doubles, 9 with being able to press the same mundra twice
6 three step ninjutsu without doubles, 27 if you could press the same mundra up to 3 times

But, we're getting into a lot of skills to have to remember combinations for...
And that's not even considering if we could do more than 3 mundra in a row.

I am not sure why people don't want to take a 4 slot combo and make it a 1 slot combo. The skill's won't change ... the complexity won't get easier, but rather has the chance to increase if they add new skills. Maybe people just don't understand what is meant by op *shrugs*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyxn607

I think some people in this thread need to go back to 2nd grade to learn to read.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

There are plenty of people who understand the change that just don't want it.

The more I read this thread the more I shake my head, the constant "people don't understand," "people are afraid of change," constant awful sarcasm, etc etc is incredibly patronizing. This isn't hard to understand, at all. Just because in your mind, there is no reason to disagree with you, and that your argument is infallible, doesn't mean that it is.

---

/10charnonsense

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Improperly. If perfect balance remains the way it is, consolidating the combos is impossible for Monk.

---

Also adresses 10 pages ago...come on...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

People are whining that combos should be consolidated because of button bloat. I simply reminded them that anyone can apply "remove <blank>" for button bloat.

---

Do you mean that people should manually change the layout of their hotbar during combat to rotate oGCD ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

As it's been repeated multiple times, pressing different buttons in a row is not difficult nor does it require skill, so it means that we don't need multiple buttons for offensive oGCDs either.

---

But we still need the freedom of using them when we want in any order we want, which is not the case with combos. (Even for MNK)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Adding more offensive oGCDs does not "deepen" the experience either, nor make it more difficult.

---

Yes, it does, since you have more skills to include in your rotation and synergize with other skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

They've already turned away from buff-happy oGCDs, that's why they got rid of so many crossclasses.

---

No, that's not why. It's to create a better balance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Though keep ignoring that point of my post I guess.

---

It's because the only point you make is trying to draw parallels between GCD and oGCD, even though they are completely different in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

snip

---

Sadly some people feel the need to insult and/or mock people simply because they have a different opinion or preference than they do. I usually just take it as a sign that they aren't worth my time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Also adresses 10 pages ago...come on...

---

I'm going to be very curt here, your awful form shift idea addresses nothing. I just really don't feel like wasting my time explaining why weaving in form shift is functionally impossible even if it was made an oGCD because of all the buttons Monk has during its opener. Especially when the crutch is "RoF slows down GCD," there are times where RoF isn't up and sometimes people need to or will PB there.

Edit: I'm just going to take a hard stance and include that as long as GL3 and PB stay the way they are, depending on your SkS tier and the existence of forms in general, combo consolidation will never work with Monk. Not unless you like clipping in the middle of Perfect Balance, which might be one of the most terrifying things I can even think of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

But we still need the freedom of using them when we want in any order we want, which is not the case with combos. (Even for MNK)

---

Wrong. We do not "need" anything. The same way people do not "need," to have to press multiple separate buttons for combos, people do not "need" freedom to use oGCDs in any order they want. It is purely preference, as posted here time and time again, pressing buttons in order or pressing "multiple buttons" does not create more depth, skill or difficulty. Your desire to have multiple oGCD buttons is akin to people wanting combo buttons to be separate, purely opinion and purely preference. There is no factual reason as to why aside from "it feels better to weave in multiple oGCDs," the same way as "it feels better to press combos in sequence on different buttons." There is nothing that states that we need oGCD attacks with separate cooldowns or animations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's because the only point you make is trying to draw parallels between GCD and oGCD, even though they are completely different in the first place.

---

They are really not that different. People call the extra buttons in combos fillers because they are separate skills tied to a format that is always followed. I was merely drawing the parallel that all skills, ultimately, are used in such a way that they are used "in order." There is no "difficulty," or "skill," in doing a rotation, or pressing extra buttons, so it means that there's no point in having more oGCDs than "needed." Unless, of course, it's because it feels right, or better that way, which is what people who argue against consolidation of combos are saying.

It just feels incredibly hypocritical to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

I'm going to be very curt here, your awful form shift idea addresses nothing. I just really don't feel like wasting my time explaining why weaving in form shift is functionally impossible even if it was made an oGCD because of all the buttons Monk has during its opener.

---

No, please don't waste your time. And don't play NIN also...since you have to weave this kind of very quick, very short CD skills in their opener too...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

as posted here time and time again, pressing buttons in order or pressing "multiple buttons" does not create more depth, skill or difficulty.

---

For GCD, no, it deosn't. For oGCD, it does, because skills are not tied to each other.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

There is nothing that states that we need oGCD attacks with separate cooldowns or animations.

---

Yes, there is the fact that each oGCD has different attributes, especially, its cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

I was merely drawing the parallel that all skills, ultimately, are used in such a way that they are used "in order."

---

Which is still wrong. When you're a PLD, all Riot Blades will comme after Fast Blades, all Royal Authorities will come after Riot Blades, etc...There is no oGCD that will always be used after another unique oGCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, please don't waste your time. And don't play NIN also...since you have to weave this kind of very quick, very short CD skills in their opener too...

---

Let's completely ignore the fact that Ninjas never double weave during their opener aside from mudras, which you yourself have already acknowledge function differently than the average oGCD. Stop comparing two separate classes, especially when you don't play one of them. Sarcasm is unbecoming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

For GCD, no, it deosn't. For oGCD, it does, because skills are not tied to each other.

---

Completely 100% your opinion. It adds absolutely nothing for me besides extra buttons to press.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yes, there is the fact that each oGCD has different attributes, especially, its cooldown.

---

Offensive oGCDs only do damage and nothing more, it would actually be quite simple to balance the classes to function on a singular button with a reasonable cooldown.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Which is still wrong. When you're a PLD, all Riot Blades will comme after Fast Blades, all Royal Authorities will come after Riot Blades, etc...There is no oGCD that will always be used after another unique oGCD.

---

If you're playing your class right, you will almost always follow up with Howling Fist around 20 seconds after a Steel Peak. Elixir Field will usually be followed by a Steel Peak within 10 or so seconds. Do I really have to go and list every example of something like this to you? Just because you are not pressing the button "immediately after," does not take away from the fact you are pressing them "in sequence." The only thing that gives the illusion of "depth" is the fact that you are limited by a cooldown, the same way combos give the illusion of depth by being limited based on what step you are on.

Edit: Also by the way, not offensive oGCDs, but you literally use Brotherhood alongside Riddle of Fire every time, so you're wrong there too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

No, please don't waste your time. And don't play NIN also...since you have to weave this kind of very quick, very short CD skills in their opener too...

---

Okay I am not fully following this back and forth but, why is NIN relevant to a discussion about MNK's job mechanics?

NIN != MNK

They are different jobs and NIN is designed totally differently and it is designed where you need to use 3 oGCD (mudras) in succession like that.

MNK is not designed to use form shift during combat unless the boss has left the arena/jumped away, this is obvious since using form shift during combat is a DPS loss unless there is nothing on the field to hit.

Not to mention like I said before we are ignoring balance and fun. Does staring at the boss and spamming form shift, instead of I don't know...actually attacking the boss, just to make your PB work properly sound fun? It sounds not fun, at all, and sounds really annoying too in my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Not to mention like I said before we are ignoring balance and fun. Does staring at the boss and spamming form shift, instead of I don't know...actually attacking the boss, just to make your PB work properly sound fun? It sounds not fun, at all, and sounds really annoying too in my opinion.

---

We are arguing on the what-if scenario, "What if form shift functioned akin to mudras as an oGCD?" The idea would function at all if it wasn't for the fact that Monk already has enough to weave as it is, especially during PB or any PB burst moments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

We are arguing on the what-if scenario, "What if form shift functioned akin to mudras as an oGCD?" The idea would function at all if it wasn't for the fact that Monk already has enough to weave as it is, especially during PB or any PB burst moments.

---

Wouldn't that still be a dps loss for MNK even if form shift was oGCD? I don't main MNK so my experience is from HW.

So much drama here.

Didn't read it.

Anyway, on the first page I have seen that people are against it and also said that it's for people who are bad.
I have no issues with the current system, I use hotkeys and also the shift + and additionally I have a razer naga mouse which has 12 thumb buttons on it which are really heaven.
I play PLD 99,99% of the times so I will use that as an example.

1 2 3 4 5 6
Fast Blade // Savage Blade // Rage of Halone // Riot Blade // Goring Blade // Royal Authority

So I would press 1>4>5 and then 1>4>6 (two times) and then 1>4>5 again etc when DPS.
If I had 1, 2 and 3 as builder + finisher. Like 1 would be RoH, 2 would be GB and 3 would be RA.
So I would press 2 3 times and I would do Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Goring Blade
Then I would press button 3 3 times and I would do Fast Blade > Riot Blade > Royal Authority.

Why would I be bad or have less skill when I would press button 3 3 times instead then having to press 1 > 4 > 6?

Back when I played RIFT in 2011 I almost only used macros. I had 5 buttons and those were all macros that had multiple skills in them and those where basically the main buttons I was spamming in fights. I had all my cooldowns skills on my hotbar though to have full control over it and also a few (I think it was like 5) normal abilities that were also on my hotbar so I had full control about when I would use them but all my other skills were in the macro and I cleared every raid playing like that (I was tank there too).

So when I read some of the comments when I played RIFT like this I'm apparently less skilled then somebody who would press 40 buttons individually?

If somebody could explain me that would be kind.


Any forms of drama will be ignored and any insults will be reported. Let's keep this nice and clean.


Edit: forgot to say that I hate PvP with a passion and as such I have never ever done any form of PvP in this game, but I did read the post of the OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Wouldn't that still be a dps loss for MNK even if form shift was oGCD? I don't main MNK so my experience is from HW.

---

The what-if scenario is basically this:

Weaponskills are consolidated for all combos. Monk has three separate buttons to choose which attack from which form at your leisure.
Perfect Balance enables you to use Snap Punch, Demolish and Rockbreaker. The "end" of each path.
Using Form Shift during this will turn those three buttons into Bootshine, Dragon Kick, and AoTD. Using any of these will not "advance," forms, instead causing you to need form shift to progress during PB.
In Monk's opener after PB, you do, simplified mind you, Snap->Snap->DK->Twin Snakes->True Strike

The argument was that form shift functioning akin to mudras meant that a Monk could weave in Form Shift between skills during PB in order to achieve the same results as right now. While it would work in theory, all the weaving Monk has to do already throws it out the window. There's also periods where spamming true strike for sheer DPS in PB, assuming you have all your buffs up, is actually a decent move, but it'd be functionally impossible since you'd have to go Snap->DK or BS->True Strike, and in Perfect Balance you can ideally only hit five GCDs per PB. It'd be a DPS loss.

Force everyone to use pvp's new combo system I wouldn't be for but the option to use it I would support. with that said I wouldn't want a 1 for 1 replication of pvp's combo system. In pvp samurai has 3 combos and each combo is a 2 action combo. If I had the option to use pvp's combo system I still would want my pve combo to be my 2 that use 3 actions and my combo that uses 2 actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

It'd be a DPS loss.

---

Ah, so I guess I sort of had the right conclusion anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Let's completely ignore the fact that Ninjas never double weave during their opener aside from mudras, which you yourself have already acknowledge function differently than the average oGCD. Stop comparing two separate classes, especially when you don't play one of them. Sarcasm is unbecoming.

---

Hmmm, I wonder if anyone ever suggested that Form Shift shoud be changed to work like Mudras during Perfect Balance by having no CD and almost no animation...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Completely 100% your opinion.

---

So I guess we could remove all skills then, if oGCD brings nothing to the complexity. Of, how I pity those fool theorycrafters that try to find the best way to rotate their oGCD for nothing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Offensive oGCDs only do damage and nothing more.

---

Jump does damage and brings you back to your position, SD does damage and is a Gap Closer, Dragonfire Dive does AoE damage...none of those "just do damage".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Edit: Also by the way, not offensive oGCDs, but you literally use Brotherhood alongside Riddle of Fire every time, so you're wrong there too.

---

Unless a spread phase requires that every DPS needs to be more than 15yalms from each other, or if you are isolated from the group by a mechanic...the fact that they happen to have the same CD doesn't create an intrinsic link between those two skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Ah, so I guess I sort of had the right conclusion anyway.

---

No, it wouldn't since you'd only have to hit FS twice to get to the proper form. And that shifing twice would take the same time as a 2-step jutsu, witch an fit between GCD. Then again, it's already been said that MNK would need more adjustments to fit that system than other linear-combo-jobs. But still, when the next expansion arrives, all jobs will need to relearn ther correct optimal DPS rotation, so you won't "lose" DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hmmm, I wonder if anyone ever suggested that Form Shift shoud be changed to work like Mudras during Perfect Balance by having no CD and almost no animation...

---

This does not change the fact that Monk already double weaves before this. Your suggestion means that Monk would have to TRIPLE weave. Even if Form Shift functioned exactly like mudras, it does not change the fact that other oGCDs do not. Just stop it with the pettiness already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

So I guess we could remove all skills then, if oGCD brings nothing to the complexity. Of, how I pity those fool theorycrafters that try to find the best way to rotate their oGCD for nothing...

---

An extremity if I've ever read one. The theorycrafter thing is completely irrelevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Jump does damage and brings you back to your position, SD does damage and is a Gap Closer, Dragonfire Dive does AoE damage...none of those "just do damage".

---

Anyone worth their salt as a DRG will use jump right next to the target, so this is irrelevant. It ultimately only does damage and has animation lock. Spineshatter can be used as a gap closer but ideally and most likely never is, instead being used purely on cooldown for, again, damage. Dragonfire dive doing AoE is the only thing that sets it apart, just like other AoE oGCDs. You could just have two buttons, one for damage and one for AoE, my stance regarding hypocrisy doesn't change. Ultimately though, in most encounters, especially in Savage, it will only be doing single target regardless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Unless a spread phase requires that every DPS needs to be more than 15yalms from each other, or if you are isolated from the group by a mechanic...the fact that they happen to have the same CD doesn't create an intrinsic link between those two skills.

---

If there is a phase that requires all the DPS/Tanks to be more than 15 yalms from each other, or you are isolated, chances are you also aren't DPSing, which means you also aren't using riddle of fire. There is a small handful of situations where you are completely isolated, like timegates in A12S, which is now defunct content. Also, yes, there is an intrinsic link, you can ask any Monk player who's worth their salt and they will tell you that you always RoF with Brotherhood. Though sure, continue to tell someone who plays Monk how those two skills aren't constantly used together, as someone who doesn't even play the class I might add. You're literally grasping at straws at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Improperly. If perfect balance remains the way it is, consolidating the combos is impossible for Monk. You can't select which button to press within the combo unless you have separate buttons for it, like we do now. Good luck convincing SE to even touch Perfect Balance, they haven't in 4 years.

---

That, too, was addressed. If Monks are given only 3 slots, by which to choose from among the 3 choices actually usable at any time outside PB, then PB need only adjust Form Shift over its duration as to allow for no-cost (no animation -- none -- no GCD) cycling of those choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

That is ultimately irrelevant. Arguing about reducing skills is a half-measure. Skills are just buttons to press the same way each step in a combo is. People are whining that combos should be consolidated because of button bloat. I simply reminded them that anyone can apply "remove <blank>" for button bloat. As it's been repeated multiple times, pressing different buttons in a row is not difficult nor does it require skill, so it means that we don't need multiple buttons for offensive oGCDs either.

---

The reason combos were put on that chopping block is because they have literally no other order in which they can be pressed without wrecking themselves. That does not apply to the majority of oGCDs.

Very few oGCDs have obligatory ordering, and only one example (Mirage Dive) stands as nearly as slot-wasteful as any combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Adding more offensive oGCDs does not "deepen" the experience either, nor make it more difficult. They've already turned away from buff-happy oGCDs, that's why they got rid of so many crossclasses. Though keep ignoring that point of my post I guess.

---

They don't necessarily add complexity, as many oGCDs CD-sync naturally, but not all do sync naturally and those, in turn, add complexity. Whether that complexity then "deepens" the experience for the vast majority of players, however, is indeed debatable. I'd argue that SE's stance is that they do not, and that they'd rather see skill-gap squished, whatever the (job-gutting/-filleting) means necessary.

Luckily, as the devs find themselves obliged to add 3+ abilities per expansion yet continue to ignore bloat in combo jobs, they'll have more and more excuse to get rid of real tools on those classes! (Why make Heavy Thrust interesting when you can just axe it too? Can't combine F&C and WT, though, or people will know they just basically got the same ability twice when we ran out of ideas, let alone make them into real and separate options. Heck, it's not like people need Jump; it just adds periodic damage, and didn't we just say before SB that we wanted DoTs gone for similar reasons of artificial-yet-skill-gap-inducing difficulty?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

If there is a phase that requires all the DPS/Tanks to be more than 15 yalms from each other, or you are isolated, chances are you also aren't DPSing, which means you also aren't using riddle of fire.

---

So, I guess you never stand at the center of the room to keep DPSsing Alte Roite while everybody spreads for Levinbolts...or stay close to Halicarnassus while the other DPS have to move to fill other DPS squares so that they're out of range and thus, potentially wasting Brotherhood...or staying close to Catastrophe to put a tentacle while other DPS have to stay away to place other tentacles and can't DPS...

But I guess three main mechanics in Savage are only straws...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That, too, was addressed. If Monks are given only 3 slots, by which to choose from among the 3 choices actually usable at any time outside PB, then PB need only adjust Form Shift over its duration as to allow for no-cost (no animation, no GCD) cycling of those choices.

---

Read what I said about triple weaving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Luckily, as the devs find themselves obliged to add 3+ abilities per expansion yet continue to ignore bloat in combo jobs, they'll have more and more excuse to get rid of real tools on those classes! (Why make Heavy Thrust interesting when you can just axe it too?

---

Heavy Thrust is a useless button and I've said that since 2.0, so I'm going to have to disagree with you there entirely, regarding "real tools."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, I guess you never stand at the center of the room to keep DPSsing Alte Roite while everybody spreads for Levinbolts...or stay close to Halicarnassus while the other DPS have to move to fill other DPS squares so that they're out of range and thus, potentially wasting Brotherhood...or staying close to Catastrophe to put a tentacle while other DPS have to stay away to place other tentacles and can't DPS...

But I guess three main mechanics in Savage are only straws...

---

This might actually blow your mind, but if you play Monk properly neither two none of these things will ever be an issue. The only people who influence Brotherhood are people who do physical DPS, which is every melee in the game, every tank, bard and machinist. If Alte Roite is in the middle the distance between the middle and the edge is roughly 15y, you can ask any Red Mage to confirm that one. (The joke is that Red Mages have in the past constantly jumped off to their demise because they actually overshoot it, despite displacement's back jump being 15y.) So you shouldn't have to wait and should be able to hit everyone with Brotherhood regardless. For Hali, my tanks, the other melee and our bard stands within 15y so that brotherhood will work, and there are often times where I can't even Brotherhood at all because I already used it prior, making this point moot. As for placing tentacles, if you're doing it right, the four tentacles being placed in cardinal directions shouldn't even be 10y away from each other, let alone 15. I can hit everyone just fine with Brotherhood. Healers and casters be damned, because it does not influence them and they do not contribute toward my chakra count at all, aside from very situational Red Mage nonsense. Again, you are reaching.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

An extremity if I've ever read one. The theorycrafter thing is completely irrelevant.

---

Your whole argument here has been based on the idea that once order of use is determined, then no one in their right mind (despite the potential for the unexpected to occur, or for mistakes) would use them outside of that order, meaning that they would not then be actual choices. If it can be theorycrafted to varying results... it has choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

This does not change the fact that Monk already double weaves before this. Your suggestion means that Monk would have to TRIPLE weave. Even if Form Shift functioned exactly like mudras, it does not change the fact that other oGCDs do not. Just stop it with the pettiness already.

---

Don't worry; since you've already combined all their oGCDs, your inability to effectively queue same-slot keys into each other has already made it impossible to double-weave in most cases, and player aggravation over held keys automatically performing each stacked skills consecutively when not intended has already caused the majority of surviving Monks to swap. (I mean, SE surely couldn't ever, regardless of advisement or call to sanity, get GCD swapping right, so why would they do oGCDs correctly?)

Alternatively... they learn how to actually animation-stack, or give Form Shift no animation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Anyone worth their salt as a DRG will use jump right next to the target, so this is irrelevant.

---

So, because the skill is most often used in the manner that carries the least opportunity for creative use, rather than further allowing creative use of the skill, we should only ever treat it as "just damage"? At that point, why have it at all? They already axed most sources of DoT damage as being just 'artificial difficulty via inflexible periodic use with a disproportionate effect on skill-gap.'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

If there is a phase that requires all the DPS/Tanks to be more than 15 yalms from each other, or you are isolated, chances are you also aren't DPSing, which means you also aren't using riddle of fire. There is a small handful of situations where you are completely isolated, like timegates in A12S, which is now defunct content. Also, yes, there is an intrinsic link, you can ask any Monk player who's worth their salt and they will tell you that you always RoF with Brotherhood. Though sure, continue to tell someone who plays Monk how those two skills aren't constantly used together, as someone who doesn't even play the class I might add. You're literally grasping at straws at this point.

---

And my BV tends to time into WM. That certainly doesn't mean I want them bound together. God help me if I want to recover from an PB-RB spam via Purification, which has no reason to fall inside my RoF window, or want to hold off on BH until the NIN's alive, but don't want to lose a cast of RoF over the fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Read what I said about triple weaving.

---

Third time's the charm, I hope:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That, too, was addressed. If Monks are given only 3 slots, by which to choose from among the 3 choices actually usable at any time outside PB, then PB need only adjust Form Shift over its duration as to allow for no-cost (no animation -- none -- no GCD) cycling of those choices.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Heavy Thrust is a useless button and I've said that since 2.0, so I'm going to have to disagree with you there entirely, regarding "real tools."

---

Again:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

(Why make Heavy Thrust interesting when you can just axe it too?) <sarcasm>

---

At present, sure; Heavy Thrust, like current Straight Shot or (good god) Hot Shot, is a shitty ability. But why would you rather axe something with the potential to be more over, say, condensing combos, wherein 6+ slots are literally unusable in any given GCD? Why enforce stacked oGCDs over that, rather than just making them an option?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Your whole argument here has been based on the idea that once order of use is determined, then no one in their right mind (despite the potential for the unexpected to occur, or for mistakes) would use them outside of that order, meaning that they would not then be actual choices. If it can be theorycrafted to varying results... it has choices.

---

Theorycrafting to varying results doesn't change the fact that only the greatest result is the correct one. You can argue in circles all day about that one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Don't worry; since you've already combined all their oGCDs, your inability to effectively queue same-slot keys into each other has already made it impossible to double-weave in most cases, and player aggravation over held keys automatically performing each stacked skills consecutively when not intended has already caused the majority of surviving Monks to swap. (I mean, SE surely couldn't ever, regardless of advisement or call to sanity, get GCD swapping right, so why would they do oGCDs correctly?)

---

The combining oGCDs was to point out hypocritical it is to immediately assume that it is absolute fact that combos should be consolidated based on what is in reality sheer convenience and desire. It is not a fact that combos should be consolidated, just as it's not a fact that oGCDs should be. So most of this is irrelevant to the original argument of "if you had all your oGCDs but tried to weave in with form shift." Also, SE being incompetent isn't my problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, because the skill is most often used in the manner that carries the least opportunity for creative use, rather than further allowing creative use of the skill, we should only ever treat it as "just damage"? At that point, why have it at all?

---

I don't know, aesthetic? It's not my fault you can't auto attack or do weapon skills if you decide to Jump anywhere not in front of your target.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And my BV tends to time into WM. That certainly doesn't mean I want them bound together. God help me if I want to recover from an PB-RB spam via Purification, which has no reason to fall inside my RoF window, or want to hold off on BH until the NIN's alive, but don't want to lose a cast of RoF over the fight.

---

Never said I want Brotherhood or Riddle of Fire bound together. I was simply replying to the part of the post that said oGCDs are never used consistently or always in tandem. Stop putting words in my mouth. If you need purification to recover from doing your AoE you're playing Monk wrong. There's a reason every Monk player calls the skill near-useless. Also, casting BH despite a dead NIN is still a DPS increase (unless you're running two casters, but you should know better as a Monk player) because it still means more chances for possible forbidden chakras during the RoF window. Missing out on what could potentially be 2 or 3 forbidden chakras inside of a RoF window vs hitting 3 or 4 outside of it is no joke.

Regarding triple weaving: Even if form shift had no animation, it does not change the fact that latency can still apply to it. People still have issues with Mudra lag to this day despite the fact that it's far faster than the average oGCD, and after they fixed it too. It is still triple weaving.

Regarding Heavy Thrust: I don't care. Even if they consolidated combos, I still think it's a trash ability, have always thought it was a trash ability, and I would not be opposed to it being thrown in the trash where it belongs. Nothing will change my opinion. Just accept the fact we disagree on it and move on. I'm not "enforcing oGCD" stacking, as I already said prior in this post, I was simply pointing out that people are simply asking for combo consolidation based on convenience and then posting it as if it's a fact, that it's convenient for all and that no one will suffer from this, that it will do nothing but good things for everyone's experience, etc. I do not mind people saying, "combo consolidation would be awesome," but I do mind people saying, "combo consolidation is what this game needs, and if you disagree you don't know how to read/don't understand/need to reread this post until you do agree."

Seems like you really took what you could skim-read from my posts and rolled with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Regarding Heavy Thrust: I don't care. Even if they consolidated combos, I still think it's a trash ability, have always thought it was a trash ability, and I would not be opposed to it being thrown in the trash where it belongs. Nothing will change my opinion. Just accept the fact we disagree on it and move on. I'm not "enforcing oGCD" stacking, as I already said prior in this post, I was simply pointing out that people are simply asking for combo consolidation based on convenience and then posting it as if it's a fact, that it's convenient for all and that no one will suffer from this, that it will do nothing but good things for everyone's experience, etc. I do not mind people saying, "combo consolidation would be awesome," but I do mind people saying, "combo consolidation is what this game needs, and if you disagree you don't know how to read/don't understand/need to reread this post until you do agree."

Seems like you really took what you could skim-read from my posts and rolled with it.

---

Fair enough, then. I don't personally define quoting and responding to every word made in reply to me as skimming, but I see now that I should have read an additional page back before entering the conversation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Fair enough, then. I don't personally define quoting and responding to every word made in reply to me as skimming, but I see now that I should have read a third page back before entering the conversation.

---

I more meant skimming as in regards to stuff like combining RoF and BH, since I never implied or mentioned that.

As for the "third page back," pretty much. There's a lot of stuff and it's a pain in the butt to read, I'm surprised anyone besides Reynhart actually replied to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

Theorycrafting to varying results doesn't change the fact that only the greatest result is the correct one. You can argue in circles all day about that one.

---

Yes, the greatest result is the correct one, but this result covers an entire rotation and not just skills related to one another. And unless your job magically have all of its oGCD having the same CD, you won't keep them synchronized. Besides, we all know how the dev team fares compared to extreme theorycrafter, so the last thing we need is them forcing their rotation on us by fusing some oGCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

The combining oGCDs was to point out hypocritical it is to immediately assume that it is absolute fact that combos should be consolidated based on what is in reality sheer convenience and desire.

---

It's not a fact that they should, it's a fact that it wouldn't remove anything from the gameplay, even if MNK would need slightly more adjustements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

I was simply replying to the part of the post that said oGCDs are never used consistently or always in tandem. Stop putting words in my mouth.

---

The fact that they are used together has nothing to do with the effect they have, but only the CD. Brotherhood and Riddle Of Fire would have the same effect if used separately than together. It's just better for DPS to stack those two effects. WS in combo don't work that way.

How about this combo mechanic?

button 1 + button 2 + button 3 = skill 1
button 1 + button 3 + button 2 = skill 2
button 2 + button 1 + button 3 = skill 3
button 2 + button 3 + button 1 = skill 4
button 3 + button 1 + button 2 = skill 5
button 3 + button 2 + button 1 = skill 6

only 3 buttons, but 6 skills

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

I more meant skimming as in regards to stuff like combining RoF and BH, since I never implied or mentioned that.

As for the "third page back," pretty much. There's a lot of stuff and it's a pain in the butt to read, I'm surprised anyone besides Reynhart actually replied to me.

---

I'm really sorry about misunderstanding the hypothetical there; I definitely misread the flow there. (I like to think that) I'm usually better about making sure I've read an understood the origin of a conversation, but I dropped the ball this time. You're right that I sort of trigger-charged here. I also didn't realize Reinhardt's "mudra-like" example was the sole one sourcing the Form Shift conversation. Sorry.

To just sort of level, here — and feel free to ignore this entirely — my big issue isn't even with what the most obvious areas for consolidation would be as so much as just that I've never seen a worse implementation of a combo system than in XIV (1.8 and onward). Generally, a combo system elsewhere would mean either a single-slot skill that takes place over multiple actions, with or without significant effects at each of those stages (Mist Blade, Gust Blade, Moon Blade; repeat), or individual actions with inherent (not generally specifically granted) synergies (1.x forums gave examples whereby this would be neat to have in pairing with the additional damage types we had back then via something like Puncture starting a Defense-break, Pummel inflating it, Chaos Thrust shattering, Aeroga spreading the broken armor particles, and Aura Pulse then blasting them outward for piercing damage), and yet XIV manages to spend the same amount of slots as the latter system while providing only the singular-each options of the prior — a worst of both worlds, so to speak.

Making sense of that kind of bloat isn't going to be as simple as just making combo consolidation, but I'd like to see XIV move completely from the idea of slots being one-to-one with abilities, regardless of applicability, to one-to-one with applicable abilities, or even decisions. That can of course be done by turning our current combos towards the later, where you don't need Perfect Balance, say, to use your skills in whatever order — there's just usually some nuanced, fluid logic to how they're used and then Perfect Balance allows you to stand atop and laugh at whatever that is for its duration. Were that the case, I would by no means be desperate enough to try to salvage Heavy Thrust, let alone as some sort of window-determiner (it looks more like a dodge-strike like Disembowel, after all), even if I feel that similarly shitty Hot Shot now has a beautifully fitting mechanic (Heat Gauge) it can fit into, and Bard just can't afford to lose anything more from its early, core kit, and that Straight Shot (by any name or animation, as an alternative to Heavy Shot or Generic Filler Shot #1) can be revised to more interestingly provide for that kit, etc., etc.

I'd like to see the most possible depth per button, but I'm not particularly interested in having few or fewer buttons for the sake of having few or fewer buttons. Being able to do everything for combat within 2 full (PC) hotbars is ideal to me, including sprint and potion; beyond that I couldn't care less. I just want not to waste so many slots on non-decisions or grayed-out skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Again, I don't understand why you would even consider removing window-driving abilities like Heavy Thrust or Life Surge just to protect grayed out skills, especially when you seem to have an issue with exactly that so long as they're oGCDs instead. Why should, say, CT being a non-skill until after Db be perfectly good and complicating and satisfying, yet Battle Litany be seen as unsatisfying due to lack of presence over time when it actually sees use — and with greater nuance, control, and inherent complexity — 11.1% of the time compared to CT's 9.09% of the time? I'm not intending to protect Battle Litany in saying this — I sure as hell think it could stand some improvement in its presence over time as well, including that most simple matter of maximal uses per minute — but that makes no sense.

By all means, add some vigor to the oGCD toolkit, and make each skill feel more present and impactful, but don't start trashing actual complexity or skill choices just to ensure that no one has the right not to waste their hotbar space on unusable abilities.

---

I don't know why you continuously argue about complexity and whatnot when it's been said multiple times we aren't arguing that but simply prefer the feeling of pressing different buttons to execute our respective combo. You are, again, conflating oGCDs and GCDs when they function differently. The former I will press significantly less overtime. In fact, looking at my own logs, I'll do a full ten-string combo five times before Battle Litany comes off CD. Therefore, having oGCDs slot into separate abilities isn't the same as consolidating the combos, especially seeing in the latter case I'll be pressing the same button on a consist loop.

As for making the abilities useful outside their combo chains. That doesn't mean the current system is inherently broken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I don't know why you continuously argue about complexity and whatnot when it's been said multiple times we aren't arguing that but simply prefer the feeling of pressing different buttons to execute our respective combo.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Regardless, this really wouldn't be an optional feature. Those of us who hate it either have to bloat their keyboard/hotbar space or grudgingly accept. Hence why we don't want it at all.

---

You and Hyo have each said that because the system, if implemented, wouldn't really be an "option" and would therefore result it a button-flow you dislike, no one should should have that option. That or you're just saying "I wouldn't like that. No further relevance." To be honest, I really can't tell by now.

But let's just each throw these things out there as if they had no consequent logic or implicit argument:
I do not want to spend 4+ hotkeys on skills I cannot use during any given GCD. I would like an option by which to avoid that. I do not see this option, which would improve my situation, as being significantly detrimental to yours, unless:
(1) The devs, in typical fashion, decided that having solved this one small instance of bloat, and likely in a way that somehow more convoluted than necessary, all other bloat is permissible, and
(2) the devs then proceeded to add bloat in other ways that force you to use whatever bloat mitigation (e.g. weaponskill choice-by-choice consolidation) you can.

Now, I believe that's a valid fear, and why the devs would need near-rabid watch-dogging if something like this were to occur, but you are claiming mutual exclusion — that your right not to suffer periphrial change stands in conflict with anyone else's right to enjoy such options; that cannot help but turn, then, into argument over merit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

As for making the abilities useful outside their combo chains. That doesn't mean the current system is inherently broken.

---

<Could you clarify this portion? I'm not sure I'm interpreting it correctly.>

:: Again, ideally, I'd like to see shorter oGCD CDs, oGCD stacking only where not limiting the creative uses of potential (if improved upon) creative uses of oGCDs, weaponskills freed from combo constraints and so forth. But I do not care to see buttons spent just for the sake of hitting something else to continue, essentially, the same skill. Make them separable, or let me spend only as many buttons on it as there are choices.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

To be fair MNK has a current PVE setup where it has multiple branches so there is choice involved (if you ignore 100% optimization anyway, like I kn

---

but if someone wanted the option then why not let them have it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

it's a fact that it wouldn't remove anything from the gameplay

---

No, it isn't. Multiple people have gone on the record to say that consolidating combos would hurt their experience or make things less enjoyable or convenient for their experience. Therefore, it would remove, or change something to those people. Do not state your opinion as fact. This is exactly the entire reason I got involved in this thread, posts like this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'm really sorry about misunderstanding the hypothetical there; I definitely misread the flow there. (I like to think that) I'm usually better about making sure I've read an understood the origin of a conversation, but I dropped the ball this time. You're right that I sort of trigger-charged here. I also didn't realize Reinhardt's "mudra-like" example was the sole one sourcing the Form Shift conversation. Sorry.

---

It's fine, most forum posters would be lying if they said they didn't sometimes jump the gun. Regarding the rest of your post, I definitely agree that the combo system itself is poor in FFXIV. I definitely do not think it is impossible to improve or infallible, and if they tried to move on from it entirely I would not be entirely opposed. I can definitely understand your frustrations toward the system itself as a whole, and I definitely am of the mind that something is never perfect, and can always be improved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oscura

No, it isn't. Multiple people have gone on the record to say that consolidating combos would hurt their experience or make things less enjoyable or convenient for their experience. Therefore, it would remove, or change something to those people. Do not state your opinion as fact. This is exactly the entire reason I got involved in this thread, posts like this.

---

this is true for the most part we will ultimately accept what se wants to do , many people wernt happy with the job changes and the gutting of our jobs etc, Id rather have combos combinded than lose more skills that I actually enjoy currently in 4.2. I actually think the very reason its in pvp now is just a tester for pve at some point of course thats just my opinion but i could be.