Tanks that think they are DPS, just stop...

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Why not? A tank that melds a tank stat should logically be much more tanky than someone that chooses to use STR, at the expense of taking, for example, 25-30% more damage on average that CD's alone shouldn't be able to accommodate.

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Percent damage reduction can easily get out of hand. In this game, the devs have traditionally kept it in check by linking DEF/MDEF to gear tiers, so that the amount of damage that tanks receive is fairly uniform.

You can have a lot of variation in secondary stats. You have to account for tanks in entry level gear with much lower Tenacity, and tanks in higher level gear with potentially much higher tenacity. If it scaled too briskly, you could have a fairly significant difference in the damage taken, which could make encounter design for different skill and gear levels much more challenging. Tenacity could be much more powerful if it was a primary stat, as primary stats are generally gained at fixed amounts with each tier of gear, and you won't have two tanks with different amounts.

Make no mistake, %DR stats in MMOs are very powerful, and devs are usually fairly cautious with them. For all of our interest in doing solid dps, if stacking %DR gave us big enough returns, we'd prioritise it in a heartbeat. This is the sort of thing that can trivialise tanking in encounters.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

So, back in 2.0, the only Tank that had a "DPS stance" was Paladin, via Sword Oath, and Warriors had nothing more than Defiance in terms of having a "stance" whatsoever, which is already their Tank stance. Dark Knight did not exist back in 2.0 either, so these were the only two Tanks in the game, and, thus, Tanking outside of Tank stance in 50+ content was almost never a thing, at least not to my knowledge.

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It was. The whole dps meta began in ARR. I don't know why people think it started in HW, I guess because it was actually necessary to clear Gordias Savage.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

It was. The whole dps meta began in ARR. I don't know why people think it started in HW, I guess because it was actually necessary to clear Gordias Savage.

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I did say that I had no knowledge of people attempting to Tank outside of a Tank stance back in the old, 2.x Hardcore content. Off-tanking without Defiance on or in Sword Oath, sure, but I'd personally never encountered a case where someone would try to actively Tank without their Tank stance active. It just never seemed to be viable, or possible, back then, especially not in Coil.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

You're throwing out a LOT of theoretical circumstances here while treating them as hard evidence. The problem with that is, with the way content has been designed thus far, anything that hits for as hard as your maximum HP, MORE than your maximum HP, or just a LITTLE BIT LESS than your maximum HP is generally stuff that's intended to force you to use your panic, last ditch "not die" button (Hallowed, Holmgang, Living Dead) in order to survive regardless of how high your maximum HP value is.

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You are talking like someone who absolutly have no clue how tank busters work in Savage and sometimes Extreme bosses... Yet you've tanked A11S. Tank busters hitting for more than your actual max HP is something extremely frequent. You should know that by now.
You don't have to pop your "ultimate" cooldown each time.

I mean... Here's some math: Let's say that you are a DRK with 45k HP. The Tank buster will hit you for 60k without any kind of mitigation. If you swap in Tank stance, you'll be hit for 48k (20% mitigation). If you swap in tank stance and hit Shadow wall, you'll be hit for ~34k (44% reduction). That's more than enough to survive and be healed without dying on the next auto-attack. Even if it crits. If, ontop of that, you add a healer's shield or a DPS mitidation cooldown, it'll be more than fine.
You don't need Living dead for a TB like that.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

My Bene restores the same amount of HP to a tank with 30k and one with 50k

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I'm sorry, what? If you bene a 30k Tank, your bene will do 30k. If you bene a 50k tank, your bene will do 50k.
If you use your bene 3 times during a fight on a 30k tank, your bene will have healed for 90k HP (disregarding overheal).
If you use your bene 3 times during a fight on a 50k tank, your bene will have healed for 150k HP (disregarding overheal).

Can't you see the difference? I said that I wasn't good at math, but I'm kind of relieved that some people are actually way worse. It's kind of worriying too.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

WHM Divine Ben is a different thing, but being tied to lilies, is that even a thing?

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Well, yes? Cure II -> Benison right before a tank buster and that's it. It's even better than Stoneskin.

I don't want to sound harsh, but it seems that you never played anything higher than expert roulette.

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Originally Posted by Evaddaragon

I stayed in tank stance, and even as I was doing Omega Normal yesterday, I didn't need to use a single Halone combo if I tanked in tank stance, unless I tank swapped on Exdeath to solidify hate. Our boost to enmity modifiers are that good, really.

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Yeah if you use tank stance you really only need that one initial enmity combo if even that, now when you step out of tank stance you will notice how DPS starts to creep up pretty fast specially SAM's and good BRD's. Does anyone know if they adjusted tank stance modifiers? it just feels stronger than before when it comes to enmity generation.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

Your first question is the correct analysis of the situation, although you seem to be mistaking Medica and Medica 2 with one another. Medica was perfectly fine to spam as a group heal. Medica 2, on the other hand, was not, as spamming the skill to heal partywide damage had a tendency to generate ridiculous amounts of Healer enmity

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Basing your argument on players who are really bad at their job is just deserving you. Who in their right mind would spam a 200 potency heal when you have a 300 potency one available? You do medica2 once and are done with it. So yeah, Tanks paired with non-trash healers had zero problem holding hate back in 2.0. And even less problems after SE improved enmity modifiers. If you had played any tank back during this time and had any end-game experience with it, you'd know that. Especially in Titan Ex since the enmity modifiers had already been improved at that point.

As a DRK I wield the largest, sharpest, heaviest weapon in game... theoretically it should kill in one hit. But instead the paper from a tome hits harder.

Can SE just drop the idea tanks shouldn't be able to do decent DPS in tank stance? Hell, why not get rid of stances completely, it seems redundant. Just apply the tank stance as trait, like they changed NIN's poison effects to a trait.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

I did say that I had no knowledge of people attempting to Tank outside of a Tank stance back in the old, 2.x Hardcore content. Off-tanking without Defiance on or in Sword Oath, sure, but I'd personally never encountered a case where someone would try to actively Tank without their Tank stance active. It just never seemed to be viable, or possible, back then, especially not in Coil.

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I was doing 400dps++ easily as a PLD in T10 at STR BiS, 250-260dps top in T13 with some crafted str/vit mix. The meta was already there, just not realized earlier. FFlogs also helped the DPS meta quite a bit during 3.x. Majority of the community just wasn't buying the fact that the DPS meta was already dated as far as 2.0 where good raid tanks already were doing crafted accessories for more DPS.

EDIT: to give perspective, normal tanks in t10 did somewhere like 150-200dps on farm parties. good ones are about 250dps++. for t13, pld normally did 130-170dps. on my normal runs, i usually got 200-210 if the adds in there died so quick.

Just wanna put a disclaimer in this thread for tanks, most the people talking in this thread are not tanks you can freely disregard most if not all of this opinions.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

I think depsite of you being a healer, a tank or a dps, the any class should be having fun while playing that class.... i play healer because i like multi-tasking, dpsing while keeping people alive, i also play DPS when i dont want to babysit people, because i like to maximise my dmg.... Tanks play tanks because they like to be in the front line and mitigate damage but also DPSing, if the tanks themselves are nto having fun because of their dmg being too low, do you think the right solution is just go and yell at them "GET OVER IT AND KEEP TANKING SO I CAN KEEP DOING MY DPS STUFF! " well, longer Ques for you then.

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This is it in a nut shell. I enjoy learning the fights and doing what i can to make sure everyone survives. However, i also wish to maximize my tank DPS to help as well. If i want to go brain dead i just DPS and only worry about myself.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

I think depsite of you being a healer, a tank or a dps, the any class should be having fun while playing that class.... i play healer because i like multi-tasking, dpsing while keeping people alive, i also play DPS when i dont want to babysit people, because i like to maximise my dmg.... Tanks play tanks because they like to be in the front line and mitigate damage but also DPSing, if the tanks themselves are nto having fun because of their dmg being too low, do you think the right solution is just go and yell at them "GET OVER IT AND KEEP TANKING SO I CAN KEEP DOING MY DPS STUFF! " well, longer Ques for you then.

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Yeah you really hit the nail in the head. For me and I think a lot of us, the power fantasy of playing a tank isn't about being an immovable wall (it somewhat is) but also being in the middle of the cluster fuck and throwing down with entire groups or with big bosses as equals. That we should be threatening enough that the things feel like their only hope is taking us down first but we're really acting as the wall for our more threatening but squishier friends to do their work.

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

You know who you are. stop complaining about your DPS numbers and hold aggro with aggro builder combos, and if DPS die because of they casually ripped aggro off you then that is your fault because you didn't hold aggro on that 1 trash mob. if they used an AoE, then that is their fault. Do you job as a tank and hold aggro. Because I already am.

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I found the person who actually wants to delete WAR.

Never mind that SE actively gives tanks DPS tools, a DPS stance, and has an entire job the revolves around all of its utility doing damage at some point. Not to mention a level 70 ability that's literally all about doing damage.

Also I do damage and hold aggro. I do my job and I do it better then you apparently.

My thoughts on this matter are: I use all my abilities, that includes the dps ones... however, if you want me to use non-tanking gear that's not aimed at survivability, then you'd have to pay me. I've lost count of how many times I've been down around 5-6k Hp during extremes and other encounters, even with pretty good healers, if I were using the old str gear... I would have been dead a couple of thousand HPs before that point. Those str accessories lowers Hp by almost 10k, which out of a tanking perspective is a moronic choice (in my opinion overcourse). No small increase in dps and 15ish% is rather low for a tank, is worth risking a wipe for, considering that 1 minute won't change anything.

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Originally Posted by Yonanja

My thoughts on this matter are: I use all my abilities, that includes the dps ones... however, if you want me to use non-tanking gear that's not aimed at survivability, then you'd have to pay me. I've lost count of how many times I've been down around 5-6k Hp during extremes and other encounters, even with pretty good healers, if I were using the old str gear... I would have been dead a couple of thousand HPs before that point. Those str accessories lowers Hp by almost 10k, which out of a tanking perspective is a moronic choice (in my opinion overcourse). No small increase in dps and 15ish% is rather low for a tank, is worth risking a wipe for, considering that 1 minute won't change anything.

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The dps increase is actually pretty substantial, anywhere from a 500-600 dps increase during the fight. I wouldn't recommend going full str if you only pug, but a couple str accs don't hurt.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

The dps increase is actually pretty substantial, anywhere from a 500-600 dps increase during the fight. I wouldn't recommend going full str if you only pug, but a couple str accs don't hurt.

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Personally I use 2 dps and 3 fending and swap more of each depending on the situation.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Personally I use 2 dps and 3 fending and swap more of each depending on the situation.

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That's what I do if I have to play with pugs/my more casual friends. If I'm with my static though, I go full str.

This thread has been interesting to read. This seems to be one of the few traditional MMOS (and not an AMMORPG like TERA or BnS) that has this debate recently. WoWs Warrior's Defensive stance works in much the same way as Grit although the damage penalty is much lower. But I think maybe because tanks over there are more worried about their mitigation, and damage is secondary. The contrast is striking.

I seriously hope you guys come to a conclusion, but either way SE has the final say on tanking changes and they seem determined to stamp out the unintentional meta. It could be worse. They could be increase mob damage (which was done indirectly because mobs can direct hit you as well as crit you now) and boss auto-attack damage to the point where leaving your tank stance is a 100% death sentence for the most part. All I know is that whatever happens the tanks we lost this expansion probably won't come back unless a reversal happens or they have much better changes coming.

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Originally Posted by phishstix

either way SE has the final say on tanking changes and they seem determined to stamp out the unintentional meta.

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On one hand they are doing that, but then they continue designing fights along the same line that created said meta. If SE really want to get rid of that meta then they have to do so by designing fights where this meta is not in any way optional and not by just messing around with the jobs and expect it to be fixed.
If a high amount of hp and a ton of mitigation was most optimal then the meta would change in that direction by itself, I do personally think that way of changing a meta is better then SE telling us that tanks need to be tanky without designing any fights around tanks needing to be tanky... heck they even failed on most fights to insert a reason for two tanks.

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Originally Posted by Nowakii

I think depsite of you being a healer, a tank or a dps, the any class should be having fun while playing that class.... i play healer because i like multi-tasking, dpsing while keeping people alive, i also play DPS when i dont want to babysit people, because i like to maximise my dmg.... Tanks play tanks because they like to be in the front line and mitigate damage but also DPSing, if the tanks themselves are nto having fun because of their dmg being too low, do you think the right solution is just go and yell at them "GET OVER IT AND KEEP TANKING SO I CAN KEEP DOING MY DPS STUFF! " well, longer Ques for you then.

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Well said sir, imagine how boring it would be to just spamming flash, overpower, or unleash all the time and using defensive cooldown here and there. Imagine just spamming cures, no buffs, no debuffs, no dots. Imagine not having defensive cooldown or self healing. If people keep making this ridiculous argument and the dev implement it, this game is gonna get real boring real fast.

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Originally Posted by Kinkoz

People do realize that. We think it's a dumb change because that temporary system, while not perfect, still worked a lot better than what we have now.

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it's only not working to people that feel tanks should have to be a bigger portion of a groups dps. Square enix disagrees the direction they are pushing tanks and healers is away from that mentality. This games community has always been polarized really strangely around this issue. I personally feel tanks and healers shouldn't be a major contributer to the groups damage output and should have more focus on utility based damage for the dps members like ast sits atm.

It's both more accessible for newer players and gives more common ground for encounter balance. (where things like double warriors in HW were essentially adding 2 dps trivialising some content thus becoming required in the communities eyes)

Tanks are DPS. DPS are DPS. Healers are DPS. However direct or indirect they may contribute to clear time, as long as the encounter is ended by depleting enemy HP, all are DPS.

Oftentimes the indirect contribution will outweigh direct. There would be no tanks or healers otherwise. But this is capped. Direct contribution, instead, is never capped, apart from where it would, in the space of a single GCD, cause overkill damage. So why, upon hitting cap, would you bash your head fruitlessly against it instead of actually continuing to contribute?

What does not contribute to clearing a fight should not be taken to the fight. Within a margin of acceptance based on your more approximate community, what does not best contribute to clearing a fight should not be taken to the fight, either.

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Originally Posted by Reokotsae

it's only not working to people that feel tanks should have to be a bigger portion of a groups dps. Square enix disagrees the direction they are pushing tanks and healers is away from that mentality. This games community has always been polarized really strangely around this issue. I personally feel tanks and healers shouldn't be a major contributer to the groups damage output and should have more focus on utility based damage for the dps members like ast sits atm.

It's both more accessible for newer players and gives more common ground for encounter balance. (where things like double warriors in HW were essentially adding 2 dps trivialising some content thus becoming required in the communities eyes)

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It is because it is a bait and switch.

I play FFXIV because it is the best FF game in years, the 32-bit era, IMO.

I play it in SPITE of it being an MMO. One of the things I liked about the game when playing was though it uses the same old tired, outdated, cookie-cutter "trinity system" it wasn't so rigid as usual (I broke my no MMO rule for the first time a few years ago in another game--tank DPS was a joke and boring to play) and I found tanking in this game to be very enjoyable---I could just play whatever class I liked and not worry about the role. I only play melee, and typically sword users but I had all the melee classes at 60 in HW except Monk and Warrior. Dark Knight became far and away my favorite class (switched from Paladin after getting to Ishgard) and I came to really enjoy tanking in this game. Unlike the other MMORPG I played I could actually do more than just hold aggro--if played well you could do meaningful damage and things in Solo mode did not take 15m to kill.

However, it seems the "MMO chasers" that play this game keep trying to make it less Final Fantasy and more XYZmmorpg and now SE is listening to these people by ruining tanks. On this course, I will probably just abandon this game like I have done others that patch themselves into states that I do not enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Falar

It is because it is a bait and switch.

I play FFXIV because it is the best FF game in years, the 32-bit era, IMO.

I play it in SPITE of it being an MMO. One of the things I liked about the game when playing was though it uses the same old tired, outdated, cookie-cutter "trinity system" it wasn't so rigid as usual (I broke my no MMO rule for the first time a few years ago in another game--tank DPS was a joke and boring to play) and I found tanking in this game to be very enjoyable---I could just play whatever class I liked and not worry about the role. I only play melee, and typically sword users but I had all the melee classes at 60 in HW except Monk and Warrior. Dark Knight became far and away my favorite class (switched from Paladin after getting to Ishgard) and I came to really enjoy tanking in this game. Unlike the other MMORPG I played I could actually do more than just hold aggro--if played well you could do meaningful damage and things in Solo mode did not take 15m to kill.

However, it seems the "MMO chasers" that play this game keep trying to make it less Final Fantasy and more XYZmmorpg and now SE is listening to these people by ruining tanks. On this course, I will probably just abandon this game like I have done others that patch themselves into states that I do not enjoy.

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I must say, for people like you that like melee only and prefer sword users, and want to be able to contribute a lot of damage, I feel that SE basically answered your desires with SAM. Sure, it means dropping DRK which isn't ideal I know, but I can't help but wonder that was used as a ruse to allow these changes to be made. That said, I am happy with them. I believe a tank is a tank, and a healer is a healer (I mean sure I'll do DPS where I can, just for the group's sake, but I don't particularly enjoy it). I believe that with the structure of the way fights worked in XI, tanks had to tank, and healers had to heal, because the fights themselves were so punishing (from what I've read). It was a more traditional MMO in that sense. But, I do believe these changes could be made while keeping the traditional FF feel, allowing it to stay very FF-like, but showing a nice synergy between FF and MMO. I don't want them to change it to Generic MMO 101, but I do feel tanks should tank and healers should heal. The warrior of light arc, the ability to change jobs on the fly (with some limitations), etc, feel like FF traits to me.

These feel like FF traits to me, and should stay. But tanks being DPS with better mitigation, and healers being DPS with some healing spells... if that's core to Final Fantasy, then maybe it's time I give up MMOs completely, because aside from that, I enjoy FFXIV, but no other MMO grabs my attention. I came from WoW. I didn't like it. The story literally put me to sleep, I couldn't engage with it. It felt too out of the way. FFXIV (and I believe is a staple of FF in general) throws the story right in my face. I liked that, I felt truly engaged with the story because of how mission critical it was to progression. I feel like I am part of the story. I don't mind so much if the damage dealing part stays for if you're overgeared etc, I can live with that. But I want fights to be tricky enough that your general player (like me), has no time to throw out DPS because we have to worry so much about aggro, or we have to worry so much about healing due to damage being taken.

On the one hand, I'd also argue for tighter level and ilevel sync controls by default, so overgearing is less of an issue (but maybe with an option for looser controls for full premade parties? I dunno). But then I understand that would take away from the general FF feel, as a staple of FF has been "Oh, can't kill this now? Go train some more, get stronger, then come back." and the tighter level and ilevel sync controls would fly in the face of that. Though there is an issue of you're dealing with plenty different players, all with very different levels of competency. Perhaps for the sake of balance it has to be there? A traditional FF game and an MMO are already 2 very different beasts, with very different rulesets.

One thing is for certain, it isn't an easy situation to be in for SE. Because you've got the "MMO chasers" and the "FF traditionalists" all wanting very different things. How do you cater to 2 such large audiences when their ideas are very much at opposites with each other?

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Originally Posted by Falar

-snip-

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But it is a MMO? Don't get me wrong. I love the Final Fantasy series. And I respect that it's part of the FF franchise, but this is a MMO, whether you like or not. Note that Summoner and Red Mage were changed to fit the fact that FFXIV is a MMO.

My personal opinion is that tanks can be more than just DPS with simplified rotations. I'm not against tank DPS. I just think there can be more depth to both tank DPS and mitigation. I've only played 2 MMOs previously, but maybe I am a "MMO Chaser", I don't know.

I'm reminded of something from the Balance

http://i.imgur.com/4SV5iPu.png

Image from the picture. Basically someone wanting a story mode for Alexander Savage.

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Originally Posted by Reokotsae

I personally feel tanks and healers shouldn't be a major contributer to the groups damage

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i agree it shouldn't be "major", but i like to feel like tank and healer dps can actually make a difference, especially since most dps players on duty finder and party finder are the most inept idiots at the game that get outdpsed by white mages and paladins as samurai. i want to feel like i can maybe save the party from enraging instead of just watching the low dps reach an unavoidable outcome

healer and tank dps should be significant

Yeah probably an MMO Chaser, just because wow did it this way doesnt mean Final Fantasy has to.

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Originally Posted by Falar

I play it in SPITE of it being an MMO. One of the things I liked about the game when playing was though it uses the same old tired, outdated, cookie-cutter "trinity system" it wasn't so rigid as usual (I broke my no MMO rule for the first time a few years ago in another game--tank DPS was a joke and boring to play) and I found tanking in this game to be very enjoyable---I could just play whatever class I liked and not worry about the role. I only play melee, and typically sword users but I had all the melee classes at 60 in HW except Monk and Warrior. Dark Knight became far and away my favorite class (switched from Paladin after getting to Ishgard) and I came to really enjoy tanking in this game. Unlike the other MMORPG I played I could actually do more than just hold aggro--if played well you could do meaningful damage and things in Solo mode did not take 15m to kill.

However, it seems the "MMO chasers" that play this game keep trying to make it less Final Fantasy and more XYZmmorpg and now SE is listening to these people by ruining tanks. On this course, I will probably just abandon this game like I have done others that patch themselves into states that I do not enjoy.

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Right behind you brotha. Paladins werent in the party originally just to cover, they dealt some serious damage as well. If this game can make tanking more desirable than even wow by having tanks deal damage respectably, then why the hell would they want to go to the stupid every mmo that wasnt based on a classic established series do it? You dont need to play SAM either, if you dont want to. It doesnt even look like the iconic FF samurai, because it has to fit its "role".

Tell me more *laughs in Fight or Flight*

I agree and desagree. Tank is here to take damage but not only protect on tankbuster.
We have so many DPSspell, wtf ?
I saw someone speaking about redisgn the tank gameplay and thats right.

For me a tank is here to mitigate damage and big CD for tank buster.
We have DPS cycle and not mitigation cycle. Thats the only issue.

But since we have DPS cycle I will continue to mix between agro/dps/tankburster.

And for people who ask to remove damage penalty of tank mode. Please use your brain this is just logic. We can't have everything we are to tank not for tag faster and DPS at the end.

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Originally Posted by ADVSS

Yeah probably an MMO Chaser, just because wow did it this way doesnt mean Final Fantasy has to.

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I'm not saying we have to do things a certain way because WoW did it. My reasoning for any changes has been fun and engagement, not just because WoW did it that way. Because come on now, I can do this while watching Netflix. I think something's very wrong if I can do that. If I can fulfill my role while watching Netflix it means that the game just isn't engaging enough.

All I'm really asking is to make tanks more fun. More DPS get shorter queues. I don't see that as a bad thing?

http://i.imgur.com/8uDO2NJ.png

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Originally Posted by FeyaAres

And for people who ask to remove damage penalty of tank mode. Please use your brain this is just logic. We can't have everything we are to tank not for tag faster and DPS at the end.

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If you're referring to my comment, the point was two-fold. One being that if they want tanks to stay in tank stance, removing the damage penalty would help. Two, that the only reason the penalty is there because SE thinks the penalty should be there to be balanced. But I think losing the damage boost from your DPS stance is penalty enough. A lot of the pro players tank in DPS stance anyways so it would only help the lesser skilled players.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I'm not saying we have to do things a certain way because WoW did it. My reasoning for any changes has been fun and engagement, not just because WoW did it that way. Because come on now, I can do this while watching Netflix. I think something's very wrong if I can do that. If I can fulfill my role while watching Netflix it means that the game just isn't engaging enough.

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But thats not a valid video. 24 man content in FFXIV equals Wow's LFR. They are meant to be easy

This is a weird thread since OP was right, in so much that he was specifically complaining about tanks that can't hold aggro and won't pop CDs when doing big pulls. Those tanks should actually stop since they're not fulfilling their main obligation as a tank and are, instead, being a DPS with extra health that's getting destroyed by all the mobs. Aggro and CDs first, then unleash the deeps.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2;4287769
All I'm really asking is to make tanks more fun. More DPS get shorter queues. I don't see that as a bad thing?

[IMG

http://i.imgur.com/8uDO2NJ.png[/IMG]





.

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I will be blunt. I wouldnt wish 2.0 paladin on any of you tanks


enmity is easy now because they keep inflating it, since 2.0, and thats all I'll say. I am, however open to hugs, got an infinite supply of them

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Originally Posted by Baci

But thats not a valid video. 24 man content in FFXIV equals Wow's LFR. They are meant to be easy

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I mean, I do agree 24-man content is easy. But just because the content is casual that means there shouldn't be engagement? I don't quite agree with that.

I haven't tanked Lakshmi EX, but I've healed it. And from what I can see, it suffers from the same problem. Which is that damage comes out in spiky bursts and other than the boss is just auto attacking

EDIT:
Well it seems you don't understand my point so I'm just going to stop responding to you.
This video I keep showing to everyone was actually a very very easy raid. The end game hard mode dungeon for BiS that was released before this raid (SCHM), was much harder (one thing is at 25% Darkan has a tight and hard DPS check so if you don't kill him in that time you wipe).
My point is that the problem of "tankbusters, pop cooldown, AA for crap all other times" pervades content throughout FFXIV.

Even in leveling dungeons, in terms of tanking. TERA has far far more engagement than FFXIV does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdjetUEV-zw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu1lBWG7oEI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWNt7be3vps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRQOocfr1p8

Note I'm not trying to toot my own horn here or anything. I'm definitely not the best player. I'm just saying your argument "oh this is casual easy content so it's fine it doesn't need to be engaging or fun" is stupid.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

I mean, I do agree 24-man content is easy. But just because the content is casual that means there shouldn't be engagement? I don't quite agree with that.

I haven't tanked Lakshmi EX, but I've healed it. And from what I can see, it suffers from the same problem. Which is that damage comes out in spiky bursts and other than the boss is just auto attacking

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The primals we have right now are ridicilously easy cause 1. Its the start of an expansion 2. SE probably thinks they needed to be even more easy cause of the class changes.

On the 24man content. Its not the mobs/bosses that make it hard. Its the 23 other people

So in your own words... Everything is the tanks fault...

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Originally Posted by Baci

On the 24man content. Its not the mobs/bosses that make it hard. Its the 23 other people

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Haha, a sad truth :) ...

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

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Of course tera with its action combat feels more engaging than FFXIV with its standard tab target Combat and where have I said easy content shouldnt be engaging or fun? I just stated that its meant to be easy and further, with how FFXIV is designed it will naturally be less engaging as tera

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

But it is a MMO? Don't get me wrong. I love the Final Fantasy series. And I respect that it's part of the FF franchise, but this is a MMO, whether you like or not. Note that Summoner and Red Mage were changed to fit the fact that FFXIV is a MMO.

My personal opinion is that tanks can be more than just DPS with simplified rotations. I'm not against tank DPS. I just think there can be more depth to both tank DPS and mitigation. I've only played 2 MMOs previously, but maybe I am a "MMO Chaser", I don't know.

I'm reminded of something from the Balance

http://i.imgur.com/4SV5iPu.png

Image from the picture. Basically someone wanting a story mode for Alexander Savage.

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LUL, there is a story mode, its called normal.

When tanks were doing 70-80% of a DPS role the sky was not falling. I don't see any logical reason for it to have to be reduced to 50%. Put STR on our accessories, fix WAR and DRK, and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by PomPomFlare

There is no Vit tank meta. Meta means most efficient tactics available and being vit tank is clearly not the most efficient way(At least currently).

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

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SE being confused at what they do since all their design decisions thus far are contradicting themselves).
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Originally Posted by phishstix

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but either way SE has the final say on tanking changes and they seem determined to stamp out the unintentional meta.
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Originally Posted by Soraki-Muppe

On one hand they are doing that, but then they continue designing fights along the same line that created said meta. If SE really want to get rid of that meta then they have to do so by designing fights where this meta is not in any way optional and not by just messing around with the jobs and expect it to be fixed.
If a high amount of hp and a ton of mitigation was most optimal then the meta would change in that direction by itself, I do personally think that way of changing a meta is better then SE telling us that tanks need to be tanky without designing any fights around tanks needing to be tanky... heck they even failed on most fights to insert a reason for two tanks.

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SE may want the game to be played one way...

But, they have to design the content to incentivise that playstyle.
Not just forcing the playstyle on the playerbase.


The Meta is organically created based on the mechanics and content design of the game.
If they want to change the Meta, they need to change their design.

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Originally Posted by YitharV2

My personal opinion is that tanks can be more than just DPS with simplified rotations. I'm not against tank DPS. I just think there can be more depth to both tank DPS and mitigation.

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If people could make and maintain this as the goal of a given thread, maybe these arguments could finally stop beating around the bush and think-tank something useful. It seems like 90% of any given thread is either the promotion of a preference or beating common sense into those who believe that their preference and the actual game align when they do not. Rarely do they try to take the big picture and try to align the actual game with something that better serves a larger portion while alienating little to none of the population. Admittedly, though, that's really tough to do.

I would LOVE to see mitigation be more engaging. At that point it becomes a nuanced tradeoff even in rotational skills, rather just an arsenal of bonus CDs, DPS could end up a whole lot more engaging, too. That may be beyond the current team though, or at least its assumed value of its development time necessary.