Summoner Over-Nered (and A few other Problems)

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Those numbers were taken from the same fight, (Susanoo Ex) and were the very top dps from their respective job class. They were all doing the same fight with the same mechanics and represent the highest numbers that class can do in that situation.

Smn being 4k dps in the best scenario opposed to most classes being around 4200-4500 with Samurai at 5000 dps.

The only class worse then Summoner was Machinist at 3600 dps. Paladins and warriors can reach around 3200 dps.

Bad rep? Hardly. Using hard concrete facts like dps numbers to prove that summoner was nerfed too hard too much for you?

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Bad rep is pulling out numbers without explaining what created them. For all I had known you had pulled out those numbers from all fight sources, like some random trash pack for BRD. Knowing it's just a single target fight is better.
There is still no answer about balance padding or comp for buffs/debuffs though. For all we know the SAM had 100% Balance uptime and full physical dps synergy and the SMN had nothing.

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Originally Posted by Jeykama

Bad rep is pulling out numbers without explaining what created them. For all I had known you had pulled out those numbers from all fight sources, like some random trash pack for BRD. Knowing it's just a single target fight is better.
There is still no answer about balance padding or comp for buffs/debuffs though. For all we know the SAM had 100% Balance uptime and full physical dps synergy and the SMN had nothing.

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And I explained where I first posted the numbers that these were the highest dps numbers of each respective class. Both fights with the Samurai and the summoner had balance uptime of around 53-56% (Act is great for looking at things and comparing! I can click at both fights and get the very exact details of each class!)

And if the top summoner, which is currently at 4k dps, is compared to the other classes, it's clearly lacking. You can say oh well Summoner has better Aoe, except that deathflare was nerfed, and bane was nerfed heavily. Bane went from 110 potency per tick to 80 potency per tick with increased fall off damage per add. Oh and Summoner's strongest spammable Aoe (Meaning not requiring a minute, two minute or three minute* cooldown) is 30 potency.

The Machinist being so low concerns me as well. Is that a result of raid utility focus, another case of over nerfing, or a player having a bad time? If raid utility is the focus, that could explain SAMs sky high DPS as they have no raid utility at all.

On that note,

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

The Machinist being so low concerns me as well. Is that a result of raid utility focus, another case of over nerfing, or a player having a bad time? If raid utility is the focus, that could explain SAMs sky high DPS as they have no raid utility at all.

On that note,

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Samurai's dps is their utility at this point.

Summoner's are meanwhile out damaged and don't have arguably as much utility as say red mage. Using dual cast, Red mage can almost instantly rez/heal anyone. Red mage just hard casts Vercure the insta-casts raise on whoever.

If Summoner was meant to buff everyone's damage, they really should have made radiant shield ( 2% damage increase for maximum 24 seconds) or contagion (10% magic debuff for 15 seconds... one second too short for dreadwyrm...) more significant. Ninja get's trick attack which is 10% damage of all damage for 10 seconds every 60 seconds with same cooldown as radiant shield and contagion.

Ahh I hit the wrong button on mobile,

BUT on that note, since SMN's new format is all about the long build-up that can very easily be wrecked by a death or badly sync'd phase change resetting timers, I'm curious if that may be a contributing factor to parsers giving such low numbers. Are we accounting for Egi damage, as well?

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Samurai's dps is their utility at this point.

Summoner's are meanwhile out damaged and don't have arguably as much utility as say red mage. Using dual cast, Red mage can almost instantly rez/heal anyone. Red mage just hard casts Vercure the insta-casts raise on whoever.

If Summoner was meant to buff everyone's damage, they really should have made radiant shield ( 2% damage increase for maximum 24 seconds) or contagion (10% magic debuff for 15 seconds... one second too short for dreadwyrm...) more significant. Ninja get's trick attack which is 10% damage of all damage for 10 seconds every 60 seconds with same cooldown as radiant shield and contagion.

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Thank you for the detailed answer!

I'm a bit surprised SMN lacks a similar skill to SCH's Chain Strategem (target has 15% higher chance taking critical hits for 15 seconds), or that the skill was the one used to replace the sorely missed Sustain.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

And I explained where I first posted the numbers that these were the highest dps numbers of each respective class. Both fights with the Samurai and the summoner had balance uptime of around 53-56% (Act is great for looking at things and comparing! I can click at both fights and get the very exact details of each class!)

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When you posted those numbers you said nothing of the sort about that context, all I see still are numbers and jobs in that post. The burden of proof is on you if you're going to pull numbers out and try to prove a point, all I'm saying. It's like saying this game is dying by cherry-picking pop numbers taken at daytime pop 3.0 (sam with 100% enhanced balance) vs. night-time pop 3.5 (SMN with no cards). If the SMN and SAM both had enhanced balance with 50% uptime cool, your numbers actually mean something.

On the other hand Susano is an extremely melee high-uptime fight if you don't have to do mechanics and aoe are baited well, and high-uptime have always been SMN's weakness because of the nature of dots.
I think SAM being so high is more worrisome than SMN being so "low".

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Originally Posted by Ametrine

Ahh I hit the wrong button on mobile,

BUT on that note, since SMN's new format is all about the long build-up that can very easily be wrecked by a death or badly sync'd phase change resetting timers, I'm curious if that may be a contributing factor to parsers giving such low numbers. Are we accounting for Egi damage, as well?

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Egi damage has always been included in parses. So the summoner that did 4k dps, his egi (garuda) was around 15% of his dps doing 300k damage with wind blade.

Summoner is also the most punishing class at the moment. Not only do you get weakness if you die, but you lose your pet with all your aetherflow and dreadwyrm stacks gone. Summoner is now extremely high risk, low reward. Anything that happens to you in a fight now completely ruins (ha... get it?) your dps. Summoner used to be much more mild. Having Mild risk and high reward if you managed to get two festers in dreadwyrm trance and getting your death flare and ruin 3s off.

You have to hold fester (depending on your connection) so you don't miss fester on the add you just dotted so you don't lose aetherflow stack and toss Dreadwyrm trance away and bahamut for a minute. Bane is risky if a tank pulls the add out of range, and the damage just isn't worth it.

I want Physick removed entirely from SMN and sustain returned, that is all.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

FFX' characters may have charactaristics of jobs (lulu may be somewhat of black mage, though waka was a "blitzballer" which is no classic FF job at all well..) .. and in FFVII- FFIX there was nothing like job classes, everyone could cast "BLM" spells and had the abillity to summon... but there is no FF job system behind that. Same for FFIX, FFVII, FFIX, FFXIII, FFXV etc.

The FF job system lies in the classic FF and tactics titles

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Wakka is indeed a blitzball player but he was a ranged-dps type that could easily hit flying type without missing AND Also able to hit a enemy far away out of reach.. If u ever used Tidus and tried to attack a flying type then lmfao its either "miss" or "out of reach". FF dont need a classic job name either because there will always be a magician, ranged or melee as dps trinity. Or healer, supporter and tank.

The point is: never compare older ff games to the new ones;p its still final fantasy with different appearence on each series.

Arcanist has healing skill for a reason but they should scale it to INT so it would be fair to support ur pet for a bit. Also smn are able to use res too. Its fun that smn are able to support party members with raise. So why not physick

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Originally Posted by Jeykama

When you posted those numbers you said nothing of the sort about that context, all I see still are numbers and jobs in that post. The burden of proof is on you if you're going to pull numbers out and try to prove a point, all I'm saying. It's like saying this game is dying by cherry-picking pop numbers taken at daytime pop 3.0 (sam with 100% enhanced balance) vs. night-time pop 3.5 (SMN with no cards). If the SMN and SAM both had enhanced balance with 50% uptime cool, your numbers actually mean something.

On the other hand Susano is an extremely melee high-uptime fight if you don't have to do mechanics and aoe are baited well, and high-uptime have always been SMN's weakness because of the nature of dots.
I think SAM being so high is more worrisome than SMN being so "low".

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Well ease your fears, the numbers are off the same fight with around the same time of balance (53% smn vs 56% Samurai) And is the same fight (Susano Ex) With the top dps parse in each category, showcasing what the current strongest parse of each job is capable of. Susano is extremely high uptime for Smn as no matter what the mechanic, A summoner can throw on their dots, or ruin 2. The only positive change from the summoner rework is how mobile it is. Only dot you have to worry about casting ever is Miasma 3. If you have to cross the middle, you can slide cast miasma 3, use ruin 2, tri disaster, fester, shadow flare, without a problem at all. Even if a Summoner is trapped within the fetter rocks the Dots, and our pet can still deal damage. And Summoner being low is much more concerning then Samurai being high. So Susano being a high uptime boss has no effect on summoner unless it's a high uptime on melee and low uptime on casters.

Samurai is just dps. Offers nothing to the team but high dps. Now Ninja on the other hand, offers good dps, a raid wide 10% dps increase, inherent aggro management. Take away Samurai's high dps and it has nothing to offer. Can't buff the team in any way that a ninja couldnt do better.

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Originally Posted by Johaandr

Arcanist has healing skill for a reason but they should scale it to INT so it would be fair to support ur pet for a bit. Also smn are able to use res too. Its fun that smn are able to support party members with raise. So why not physick

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Red mage has dual cast as well. Which vastly outperforms Summoner's rez. A red mage can cast vercure on themselves then instantly cast rez.

Summoner has to either use a swiftcast or hard rez when a red mage can do it almost instantly

Ill start off by saying Im not defending all the changes to SMN because I dont agree with alot of the changes, simply cause some of them come off as clunky, such as.

Being able to activate aetherflow even if you already have max aethertrail stacks. This essentially results in a wasted aetherflow and a major set back in dps.

On the same topic, not being able to aetherflow while you are using dreadwyrm feels odd, and it means you have to wait for dread to end before using aether flow again, meaning you lose out on precious seconds of cool down time.

No sustain, it does have its purpose.

Aether pact feels slow and doesnt always work.

And all the nerfs to aoe seems excessive compared to my blm friend, plus with the removal of blizz II, there is NOTHING to do during aoe heavy dungeon runs after your dots are baned and shadow flare applied other then throw out single target dps or a painflare, spamming ruin during dreadwyrm when there is 9 enemies in the pull makes me feel like I'm not doin anything.

BUT while everyone here seems to be completely focused on the negative changes there are some finer details that improve SMN DPS and compensate for alot of these nerfs that nobody seems to be talking about.

For instance:

Dreadwyrm resets tri-disaster, done right I've only found myself casting dots once every couple minutes.

Not only are DOT application instant when using tri, but the change from 3 dots to 2 means less time applying 3 dots, and thus freeing up 1 global cool down for ruinl-lV when you actually have to apply dots manually. It also shifts smn away from relying heavily on a dot tick for dmg and just putting some of that more directly on the enemy through a ruin.

Tri applies ruination, increasing potency of ruins by 20 for 15 seconds, so since you are spamming ruin III mostly during dreadwyrm anyway it's 170 potency when it counts, they also compensated with the addition of ruin IV which can potentially be thrown out for almost no mp even when you aren't in dreadwyrm, on top of that ruin base potency is 80->100, so there is also 20 more potency there aswell.

Contagion, 10% more magic damage FOR EVERYONE. Since smn no longer needs to reapply dots manually as much, this change is big, this makes everything casters do better and for those unaware Foe req is no longer a thing for casters, it's 3% dmg for everyone and battle voice doesn't effect it, so contagion adding 10% dmg for casters and healers to capitalize on is a decent increase.

Shadow flare was made a cool down, while technically a dps loss in the long run, it condensed all the dps into 15 seconds instead of 30 so you had a better chance of getting it's full potency, also since it's a CD you get that extra ruin in again instead of casting shadow flare.

So from my experience SMN can hold their own with other DPS just fine, the true problem is how HARD it is to get good potential out of SMN.

In comparison, managing dots, aetherflow/trail/demi bahamut, ruin IV procs, tri disaster cool downs, Enkindle, ruination, contagion, and your pets position and health is alot more daunting then your typical rdm rotation, smn is far more punishing if you mess up and they have to stay really on top of their game just to stay on the same level as rdm.

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Originally Posted by Soko90

Aether pact feels slow and doesnt always work.
right I've only found myself casting dots once every couple minutes.

Not only are DOT application instant when using tri, but the change from 3 dots to 2 means less time applying 3 dots, and thus freeing up 1 global cool down for ruinl-lV when you actually have to apply dots manually. It also shifts smn away from relying heavily on a dot tick for dmg and just putting some of that more directly on the enemy through a ruin.

Contagion, 10% more magic damage FOR EVERYONE. Since smn no longer needs to reapply dots manually as much, this change is big, this makes everything casters do better and for those unaware Foe req is no longer a thing for casters, it's 3% dmg for everyone and battle voice doesn't effect it, so contagion adding 10% dmg for casters and healers to capitalize on is a decent increase.

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A few things I'd like to add.
Nobody talks about the summoner buffs cause they don't quite make up for the changes.

loss of Spur - Effectively 40% damage decrease to Enkindle - 140 potency loss minimum on enkindle. Wyrmwave makes up for loss of Spur on your pet's auto attacks. (Both lasting 20 seconds)
50 potency loss per ruin 3
30 potency loss per tick in dots (This is effectively 30 potency loss per three second loss for the majority of the fight)
70 potency loss tri disaster - Potency made up by ruin buff
560 potency loss contagion - Using contagion before dreadwyrm trance is a 244 potency boost. (88 from tri disaster + 112 from 6 ruin 3's at 170 potency each and 44 from deathflare. Contagion being a group magic damage increase requires your team to make up the difference.


The only change that compensates for the nerf is the Tri-Disaster buff increasing Ruin spells. (assuming you get atleast four ruin spells off during that 15 seconds and Wyrmwave basically acting like Spur on your pet's auto attacks. Everything else is a flat out nerf. And don't get me started about the Aoes.

In heavensward, Using dreadwyrm trance, Tri-Disaster and contagion would put up 870 potency worth of dots then extend them to 1440 potency and but that by 10-32% (Depending if you used Dreadwyrm and raging strikes together.)
Using Tri-disaster and contagion now buff Tri-Disaster from 800 potency to 880. 80 Potency increase vs Heavensward's 870 to 1440 potency increase. (560 potency gain.)

While other classes got potency buffs before 70, Summoner is a flat out nerf until bahamut.

Dont you think i already know that. Did not mention rdm at all.
Just talked about what Smn can do. Outperforms or no... They still got access to it.

There are some things that I like about the changes to SMN. Such as the Tri-disaster change and the Ruin 4 buff which makes it really fun. I am just so bummed about Shadowflare and bane nerfs. Though I still feel like I do pretty good AOE damage? I still feel very clunky, I got really use to SMN 3.0 and loved it a lot. I actually felt like it was smooth and fun to play and very active. Now I feel like I spend a lot of time twiddling my thumbs waiting for aetherflow stacks and stressing to make sure I don't mess up and waste a stack.


Does any one else feel like they spend some time waiting for aetherfloew to be off cooldown? Am I not maximixing my time in Dreadwyrm trance? I find myself often low on mana with no stacks and resorting to spamming Ruin 1.

Still only a 69 SMN tho. Excited to see how the gameplay changes when I get bahamut.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

There are only really two massive flaws I could notice with the job. One is that lack of Sustain, which is sort of okay when that pet dies and you have that extra MP from not having a third dot to re-summon it, but it gets far too rough in regard to solo play when Titan-egi can only take so much before it goes from nugget to pancake. The other massive flaw is what makes RDM vastly more superior to SMN: support function. Where Resurrection costs just over a quarter of a SMN's max MP and is only instant once every minute or so, Verraise costs far cheaper and is an instant-cast whenever that RDM feels like it. Where Physick is still a Mind-based relic of the past (which might be hard-coded in), Vercure is int-based, making it vastly superior not just in terms of emergency heals, but also in terms of solo gameplay.

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Not gonna argue how bad SMN's support is in comparison to RDM, but "far cheaper" is 2% because Verraise costs exactly 25% of the mp pool.

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Originally Posted by TristanBlane

Does any one else feel like they spend some time waiting for aetherfloew to be off cooldown? Am I not maximixing my time in Dreadwyrm trance? I find myself often low on mana with no stacks and resorting to spamming Ruin 1.

Still only a 69 SMN tho. Excited to see how the gameplay changes when I get bahamut.

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It has nothing to do with Dreadwyrm Trance - the cooldowns for the Aetherflow-based abilities were all reduced quite a bit, and so you can easily run through all three in only a few seconds if that's what you want to do. This is generally a good thing because it allows you to choose when to do that damage, instead of being a slave to the cooldown rotation, but it feels super awkward if you played a lot during 3.x. One thing to keep in mind beyond this though, just in case, is that because you can't use Aetherflow with full Aethertrail or during Dreadwyrm Trance, if you're not going into Trance around 16s before Aetherflow is up to make sure to do that.

Demi-Bahamut is...overall pretty great. You can use Aetherflow with it (like we used to be able to do during Dreadwyrm Trance) and so you kind of regain your ability to use a bunch of more interesting things and stop spamming Ruin for a bit, and the slight bit of extra freedom means during trash in dungeons or invincible parts of boss fights you can save it to unload when next able. However, because of its cost (two complete Dreadwyrm Trances) it creates an even bigger problem with having to build up than Dreadwyrm Trance ever did on its own. That is to say, if you die right before getting to summon Demi-Bahamut, you're going to feel incredibly useless tossing out some random Ruins while everything is on cooldown and you're two full Aetherflow rotations away from Bahamut again.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Red mage has dual cast as well. Which vastly outperforms Summoner's rez. A red mage can cast vercure on themselves then instantly cast rez.

Summoner has to either use a swiftcast or hard rez when a red mage can do it almost instantly

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In the event someone dies, RDM is in one of two situations:

1) You just cast jolt/verfire/verstone and have dualcast up, in which case you can burn 25% of your MP pool and kerfuffle your flow to pop them back up. Sure it's easy and you can but damned if I'm maybe a bit salty because that means I have to start back from Impact/Jolt again and get my manas back in balance.

2) You do not have dualcast up, in which case you would swiftcast rez anyway because vercure is still a ~2 second cast time and swift is a faster goto.

If enough people have been getting shrekt that dualcast rez swiftcast rez is needed...well, smack the healers and kiss your MP pool goodbye lol

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

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I'm not against SMN getting sustain *and* a physick equivalent to vercure. There are a lot of advantages to having a RDM over a SMN and not losing a chunk of our dps when our unhealable pet dies is one of them.

The thing to realize about the dual cast raise is, let's say you pop cure for it. A 3600 mp spell to raise now needed a 600 mp preempt to it. RDM also has only 1 mp refresh at all, compared to SMN's (admittedly nerfed so I hear) aetherflow and Lucid.

RDM's real advantage is dualcast raise swiftcast raise. If it comes to that though that's ~7800 mp and some tears if Lucid isn't up. I've been in this position too often in Susan Extreme learning parties. And to add to the fun I also had healers demanding me to Mana Shift them after raising them as if I had MP for days.

Also I'm no expert of summoner but shouldn't you not be casting ruin 3 outside of dwt?

From Susano ex

Job - 50th / 75th / 95th percentile
MNK - 3207 / 3498 / 3823
NIN - 3202 / 3437 / 3694
DRG - 2958 / 3227 / 3514
SAM - 3472 / 3764 / 4167
BLM - 2823 / 3138 / 3514
SMN - 2919 / 3245 / 3554
RDM - 3193 / 3467 / 3776
BRD - 2941 / 3176 / 3472
MCH - 2885 / 3108 / 3370
PLD - 1697 / 2133 / 2624
WAR - 1819 / 2098 / 2508
DRK - 1752 / 2091 / 2500
WHM - 665 / 1106 / 1616
SCH - 951 / 1284 / 1696
AST - 581 / 868 / 1271

Summoner is fine. They could use a slight boost to push them over Red Mage but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by Medicine

Are you sure? Because WHM and AST have like 3 or 4 different mana regen/reduction abilities, also they nerfed Aetherflow.

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Are u sure?.I think AST has 8 ways to get mp back and WHM 13.More non sense salt about SCH plz. Cant have enough

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Red mage has dual cast as well. Which vastly outperforms Summoner's rez. A red mage can cast vercure on themselves then instantly cast rez.

Summoner has to either use a swiftcast or hard rez when a red mage can do it almost instantly

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Then play RDM!All i see everyday in the forums is crying about anything. You know i would like them to remove the RNG from AST, SCH can give his buff whenever he wants, i want that as well. PLZ SE

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

From Susano ex

Job - 50th / 75th / 95th percentile
MNK - 3207 / 3498 / 3823
NIN - 3202 / 3437 / 3694
DRG - 2958 / 3227 / 3514
SAM - 3472 / 3764 / 4167
BLM - 2823 / 3138 / 3514
SMN - 2919 / 3245 / 3554
RDM - 3193 / 3467 / 3776
BRD - 2941 / 3176 / 3472
MCH - 2885 / 3108 / 3370
PLD - 1697 / 2133 / 2624
WAR - 1819 / 2098 / 2508
DRK - 1752 / 2091 / 2500
WHM - 665 / 1106 / 1616
SCH - 951 / 1284 / 1696
AST - 581 / 868 / 1271

Summoner is fine. They could use a slight boost to push them over Red Mage but that's about it.

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Way to miss the point. Summoner is NOT "fine" in all respects becuase it has a worthless pet now, called Titan Egi. this pet used to be very useful, until they removed sustain. now I won't touch SMN with a 10 foot pole till titan egi can tank once more.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Are u sure?.I think AST has 8 ways to get mp back and WHM 13.More non sense salt about SCH plz. Cant have enough

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All joking aside:

AST (2) - Ewer (Conditional as it must be pulled), Lucid Dreaming (Can extend either with Celestial Opposition)
WHM (3) - Assize, Lucid Dreaming, Thin Air (I count this because during it you can regen mana as well as spam Cure II to get lillies before popping Assize)
SCH (2-4) - Lucid Dreaming, Energy Drain (x1-x3)

The issue for SCH is using ED means you don't have a lustrate available and due to low potency on spells that is a hard one to give up but usually you can get at least one ED off per Aetherflow in an 8 man.

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

(..) Summoner is fine. They could use a slight boost to push them over Red Mage but that's about it.

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Say that again when we do Omega (Savage) where we need every single DPS...
Can remember Alexander (Savage) where some jobs were excluded...

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Way to miss the point. Summoner is NOT "fine" in all respects becuase it has a worthless pet now, called Titan Egi. this pet used to be very useful, until they removed sustain. now I won't touch SMN with a 10 foot pole till titan egi can tank once more.

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Titan-egi has always been useless. You shouldn't be trying to solo content with it because it sucks at keeping aggro. You should always be using Ifrit or Garuda to kill stuff faster.

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Originally Posted by Sylvina

Way to miss the point. Summoner is NOT "fine" in all respects becuase it has a worthless pet now, called Titan Egi. this pet used to be very useful, until they removed sustain. now I won't touch SMN with a 10 foot pole till titan egi can tank once more.

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I miss Sustain as much as any SMN, but this goes WAY over the edge. There's an old saying that still applies: "One monkey don't stop no show". One missing ability isn't going to make me jump on any one of the new bandwagons that tryhard endgamers are hopping on because of some glorified calculator.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

In the event someone dies, RDM is in one of two situations:

1)
2) You do not have dualcast up, in which case you would swiftcast rez anyway because vercure is still a ~2 second cast time and swift is a faster goto.

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Just small Fyi.

Raise on summoner and Verraise on Red Mage cost the same amount of Mp and they have the same mana pool. Both spells cost 25% of their Mp.

Summoner has two options in that same scenario.
1) Swiftcast Raise. Using a 60 second cooldown to make it near instant.
2) Hard casting Rez - Swift cast is down. The summoner is stuck immobile and doing nothing else until the 7 Second cast time is over. If the summoner moves, or get's hit the spell can be interrupted

Red Mage's raise is vastly superior, needing only to be dual cast. You can even cast it while mobile via slide casting. (Casting a spell around 80% then moving last second. Basically a one second raise. Just another way Red Mage makes Summoner obsolete.)

And for the most part, Red Mage spells cost very little Compared to summoners. Red Mage's most draining spell is 600 Mana. Summoner's can spend 2400 Mp just resummoning pets, or 1440 if they use Ruin 3 outside of dreadwyrm trance.

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Originally Posted by Kazukiyashuo

Then play RDM!All i see everyday in the forums is crying about anything. You know i would like them to remove the RNG from AST, SCH can give his buff whenever he wants, i want that as well. PLZ SE

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Your argument just isn't valid. Scholar's buff is called chain stratagem. It lasts 15 seconds and is basically 15% crit buff. It has a 2 minute cooldown.
Astro's buffs last 30 seconds at base, and while they are random have a 30 second cooldown timer. Both of these buffs do different things and have different drawbacks. You willing to have balance be a buff with a two minute cooldown that only lasts 15 seconds? (That's quite a nerf)

Red Mage's Verraise and Summoner's Raise are the same thing. The only difference is that the red mage can use it instantly after they cast another spell whenever they want. No Rng. It's just flat out better. Red Mage casts their choice of Jolt 2 Vercure and then insta rez. Both skills cost the same amount of mp, Just one is a better version of it. Sorta like how Red Mage has better damage, more utility, and higher mobility. Red Mage is literally just a better version of summoner at this point. You would be crying on the forums too, if Astro was nerfed, and Scholar got a better version of balance while making Scholar superior to Astro in every way

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

And if the top summoner, which is currently at 4k dps, is compared to the other classes, it's clearly lacking. You can say oh well Summoner has better Aoe, except that deathflare was nerfed, and bane was nerfed heavily. Bane wentfrom 110 potency per tick to 80 potency per tick with increased fall off damage per add. Oh and Summoner's strongest spammable Aoe (Meaning not requiring a minute, two minute or three minute* cooldown) is 30 potency.

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Doesn't change the fact that an add at the right time is a 600-800 potency gain for SMN, while it's a smaller potency gain for RDM or maybe none at all (e.g. he has opportunity costs if delaying Contre-Sixt, other than a SMN delaying painflare).
Adds don't rain randomly from the sky. Usually people know when they come up.

A SMN in a A9s similar fight would do the adds almost alone without any single target dps loss (maybe 100-200 pot), while RDM and every other class has way higher costs for tossing some AoE out or are way weaker doing that.

Bahamut and DWT, as well as the usage of Painflare (i.e. "your stacks") is at least a bit flexible. As long as you don't delay the usage of aetherflow itself you can delay your oGCD rotation without too much loss.
A SMN has, without much trouble, always the big boom ready when he needs it.

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A SMN can adjust to such things with big dps gains liberating all 7 others players from bothering about adds, what can a RDM do? He can switch to scatter (wow) when adds are coming up and maybe can use his 200 pot cleave, but therefore lose his strongest single target spell (Verholy/-flare Needs a single target melee combo).

A fight like A1S with two targets up for 75% of the fight or big adds in A12s? Advantage for SMN (and BRD as well).

Stop looking at training dolls or just 1-2 (quite similar) fights..

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

A SMN can adjust to such things with big dps gains liberating all 7 others players from bothering about adds, what can a RDM do? He can switch to scatter (wow) when adds are coming up and maybe can use his 200 pot cleave, but therefore lose his strongest single target spell (Verholy/-flare Needs a single target melee combo).

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I was a summoner for all of the last raid tier. Believe me when I say I know what their old Aoe capabilities were. The problem? Every Aoe that summoner has except for one has been gutted or nerfed. While Black Mage, Ninja, Samurai can easily surpass Summoner in Aoe with dragoons and monks being able to do enough while still having high single target damage. Samurai wins the aoe contest with their 800 potency aoe, but Samurai wins dps period. Ninja's are the most notable in my opinion with Ten Chi Jin being able to be a stronger deathflare with no damage fall off(making a 500 potency katon). Oh and speaking of which, Katon which is now buffed from Ninja's losing poison and gaining passive damage increase to everything (Not Just physical Damage), Kassastu, and being able to deathblossom. So let's take a look. ten Chi Jin 500 potency katon and hell frog medium 400 potency vs Deathflare 400 potency with fall off. Two Katons at 250 potency with one guaranteed to crit on all targets with kassastu and are 50 base potency higher then painflare and instead of bane, which does 64 potency for the second enemy, and 48 for the third, Ninja can death blossom them all for 110 potency each. Not to mention that ninjas can get 4 katons/dotons per minute and can very quickly build enough gauge for hell frog which is just a massive dps gain. Oh and Ninja's can buff the entire group's damage by 10%.

Blm can now flare adds multiple times, fire 2 on command, Thunder 4 (which does 230 potency to all adds hit) and foul them every 30 seconds for 650 potency with fall off. Pretty much outclasses Summoner's Aoes any time they want now.

Summoner's Aoe is heavily gimped on the fact that everything is a cooldown, has damage fall off, was nerfed in potency (dots) or requires aether stacks to be used. Bahamut has extremely awkward timing in fights and you can either use him as soon as you can, or hold onto him and potentially lose dps from Summoner's abilities just sitting off cooldown.

It's funny that you bring up Bard. Bard has two Aoes. Both 100 potency now. One has a 15 second cooldown timer than can be reset, the other is a spammable skill that does 100 potency. If You think Bard has the advantage, any class that can use spammable aoes that have more then 100 potency are at an advantage. Which would be anything except summoner with their 30 potency tri bind.

So out off the eight other dps classes, minimum of four classes can out perform them in Aoe. (Samurai, Ninja, Black Mage, Bard) Which also happen to outdps summoner is single target damage, and also happen to outperform their utility. Summoner doesn't even shine in Aoe even more. Literally no reason to have a summoner in your group when there are multiple classes that do everything better.

Seeing as most groups will probably have a samurai in their group their no point in having summoner. Just get a red mage or a black mage.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

...
Ninja's are the most notable in my opinion with Ten Chi Jin being able to be a stronger deathflare with no damage fall off(making a 500 potency katon). Oh and speaking of which, Katon which is now buffed from Ninja's losing poison and gaining passive damage increase to everything (Not Just physical Damage), Kassastu, and being able to deathblossom. So let's take a look. ten Chi Jin 500 potency katon and hell frog medium 400 potency vs Deathflare 400 potency with fall off. Two Katons at 250 potency with one guaranteed to crit on all targets with kassastu and are 50 base potency higher then painflare and instead of bane, which does 64 potency for the second enemy, and 48 for the third, Ninja can death blossom them all for 110 potency each. Not to mention that ninjas can get 4 katons/dotons per minute and can very quickly build enough gauge for hell frog which is just a massive dps gain. Oh and Ninja's can buff the entire group's damage by 10%.
...

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I haven't tested myself, but I've read that the tooltip for the poison is incorrect and it doesn't actually apply to the magic damage from the ninjitsu.

Just gonna toss my two cents into this as a player who has mained SMN since 2.x;

a) We need Sustain back pretty badly as others have stated. Titan becomes Tissue at this point without the ability to heal it making it... pointless to really even have summoned. Hell I used my chocobo for tanking instead for a lot of solo content.

b) Devotion. Like some people have mentioned, why not make this something you can use to target someone specifically instead of it just being whoever is closest to it? Makes you have to stop and position the pet if you want to make full use of it.

c) Aetherflow. I will say I've had times where I've accidentally hit the button and it gets forced back into cooldown when I didn't want it to. If you already have three trails maybe block out the skill like when you enter Dreadwyrm Trance to prevent that? Kind of a waste.

d) Bane. This took the biggest hit for no reason whatsoever. Look at Holy/Gravity or Flare. Flare is only reduced up to 70% while Holy/Gravity is reduced by 50% at their max amounts. Sure they are dots and last longer than a base hit but... 80% is a very hard hit for anything past a fifth enemy and kills SCH aoe dps completely. Why not leave it at 60% at the bare minimum?

e) Physick. While SMN is not a healer of course, this could do with a buff. At 70 this pulls off maybe 646. My level 58 RDM does double that already with Vercure. Either that needs a nerf, or SMN needs a small buff of some kind to it.

f) This one is about SCH. I understand they still have most of their instant cast heals etc... But why does Lustrate not get boosted by Largesse/Fey Illumination etc? I've tested it, that 20, 40, whatever percent doesn't actually boost it. It's just... a flat 600 potency. Cure II is 700 and Benefic II is 650. While not instant, they still get that bonus with those skills soooo why is SCH's bigger heal not affected?

g) On SCH again, Aetherflow needs to restore more MP than 10%. It's not even enough for an Adloquium unless you pour a crap ton of piety into your equipment. I understand the nerf for it and that SCH has two other ways of getting mp back but I'm not going to waste stacks on Energy Drain when I need them for heals and if Lucid is on cool down... then what?

Can't think of much else at the moment, but SMN/Sch does need another re balancing thats for sure.

Removal of Sustain is absolutely baffling.

A Pet class that can't heal it's own pet is just..what.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

RDM's real advantage is dualcast raise swiftcast raise. If it comes to that though that's ~7800 mp and some tears if Lucid isn't up. I've been in this position too often in Susan Extreme learning parties. And to add to the fun I also had healers demanding me to Mana Shift them after raising them as if I had MP for days.

Also I'm no expert of summoner but shouldn't you not be casting ruin 3 outside of dwt?

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Before Stormblood, back when ruin 3 was 200 potency, if was a dps gain outside of Dwt assuming you could manage your mp. It still is in certain situations, (Mainly situations where summoner's need to burn a little bit of mana before they pot aetherflow/lucid dream.

Dual Casting works like this: You cast any spell and the next one is instant. You do not need to cast verraise then verraise again. You simply cast Jolt 2/Vercure/anything at all then you cast Verraise on the party member who died.

The only difference between Summoner's Rez and Red Mage's is that Summoner's dps absolutely plummet and the summoner can't do it quickly. or while mobile and needs the mana more then red mage does. (I literally only Lucid Dream as a red mage when somebody dies. Otherwise What is mana management?)

My Point was look at summoner's spell costs. Veraero costs 480 Mana 300 potency. Ruin 2 costs 480 Mana 100 potency. Red Mage's Strongest attack costs less Mana then Summoner's Dots. You will hardly ever see a summoner run low on mana just spamming dots and ruin 2

Dual cast makes it so that Red Mage can instantly raise anyone, and have it only be a minor dps loss. As a red mage I Just give up whatever I was going to dual cast and get on with my life.

"c) Aetherflow. I will say I've had times where I've accidentally hit the button and it gets forced back into cooldown when I didn't want it to. If you already have three trails maybe block out the skill like when you enter Dreadwyrm Trance to prevent that? Kind of a waste."

This here, is SO annoying. For pure QoL improvement, let's get this lockout taken care of as soon as possible.


"d) Bane. This took the biggest hit for no reason whatsoever."

Yes. I feel "Bane" has been transformed into "Embarrassing Rash". Sometimes, rather than using Bane, I just go ahead and Bio/Miasma each mobbie, individually. Subjectively it just doesn't seem worth the aetherflow to squiff off a Bane -

You know I fear that Bahamut is really a double edged sword for us. It is one of the things that gives us our DPS at level 70, yet it takes away our egi for that time. Thus soloing stuff will be even less possible if you want to use Bahamut at the same time, because Titan egi will be gone in that time and thus the monster will turn to you..seeing how its hard for it to generate aggro again, Titan cant be used together with Bahamut. So if you want to solo stuff you either have a good chocobo that can do it for you (but no real heal to heal it in tank stance) or you have to not use a big part of your DPS..together with losing sustain it kinda feels like they either do not want us to solo things (which is bad since they introduced a new solo title for PotD which will be nearly impossible for us now..) or they never thought about the consequences for solo stuff..anyway I am just not having much fun with summoner right now...even if it would do the best DPS or something, I feel that it lost too much that made it fun for something that is here for a very short amount of time every two minutes..and is hindering us in solo content and is blocking the view in group content..(people wanted bigger egis..I did too..but not something that we cant move at all)

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Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

Titan-egi has always been useless. You shouldn't be trying to solo content with it because it sucks at keeping aggro. You should always be using Ifrit or Garuda to kill stuff faster.

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Did you ever solo PotD as a summoner? Because Titan egi was a life saver against bosses and without him its impossible to do them. (And I do have the solo title so yes I tried it enough) As soon as Titan was down against a boss it was a certain death for me if the boss had more than a few percent of his life left. We cant take much hits as summoners so we needed Titan to survive. Also he was necessary in trying to beat content unsynch solo. We simply do not have much healing skills so surviving Titan ex with just Garuda or Ifrit is probably not possible..Solo content was already the only true part where we could use him but thanks to all the changes he even becomes useless there..so they could have just deleted him too..Nice how the pet job gets less useful pets instead of more and even less useful skills instead of more. (That devotion..its so frustrating)

Also I always just cry a little on the inside if I die (loss of stacks thus loss of Bahamut) and when Tanks are moving the monsters out of my shadow flare..it might be doing a good amount of DPS but it feels way more punishing, frustrating and on the same time boring..which is a really strange and bad combination for me. Because if you do everything right its just not fun to play it, if you die to a mistake (might be your own or someone else) you are punished way harder than any other job, and its kinda frustrating to see the pet aspect being so bad..especially since we do not own that contagion anymore but the new skill from Garuda feels exactly the same ("Please use it Garuda" *hits button like a mad woman). At the same time I got the feeling that my pets are taking way to much damage..one hit in that one dungeon nearly killed Garuda instantly (by a trash monster..)..and putting them on the correct position to not get killed feels just so clunky..I am sorry but when you are doing lots of mechanics and still have to DPS at the same time, it just feels bad to have to move your pet the whole single time too..especially since they often reacted way to slow on the command thus got hit anyway..and now we have no way to heal them up again and healers dont see them in their list thus often are not healing them too..resummoning them costs a lot of MP too..

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

So out off the eight other dps classes, minimum of four classes can out perform them in Aoe. (Samurai, Ninja, Black Mage, Bard) Which also happen to outdps summoner is single target damage, and also happen to outperform their utility. Summoner doesn't even shine in Aoe even more. Literally no reason to have a summoner in your group when there are multiple classes that do everything better.

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But all of them (except SMN) lose way more single target dps while doing AoE.

You may declare it a disadvantage, but there are fights were having the choice of AoE/single target only applied to oGCDs instead of GCDs is an advantage.

I mean' it's not hard to test.. go A9s with a full group, a SMn there blows a RDM out of the water.

@Alleo: Soloing PotD is done with sustain potions now and probably every dps job can beat that with them.
SMN just don't have the unfair advantage anymore to be the only dps to fulfill tank/healing requirements on literally everything open world.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Dual Casting works like this: You cast any spell and the next one is instant. You do not need to cast verraise then verraise again. You simply cast Jolt 2/Vercure/anything at all then you cast Verraise on the party member who died.

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Cutting you off here. Go back and re read my comment. I said Dualcast raise and then swiftcast raise immediately after is RDM's main advantage that is not replicable by any other job. I at no point said you need to hardcast verraise to dualcast verraise.

Also yes, RDM's potencies are high but it has no DoTs. None, zilch. Factor that in when considering total potency per second. And again, it only has one MP refresh so when being the backbone of a party's rezzes you wind up in the last thousand MP of your pool unable to really do anything.

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Originally Posted by Ariomi

Physic needs to work like Red Mage's Vercure. Let us heal our pet/other party members Make Physic scale off Int or Mind which ever is the highest

Change aetherpact to just have the pet target whoever you select. Scholar's aetherpact already works like this.

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this stuff wouldnt be that bad, dunno why but in my case always the bloody none dpsing healer gets my aetherpact xD
anyway i understand that they nerf the dps since it has now more group support but look who the hell get the profit from support skills? except the healers which are not dpsing?

SMN needs get a dps buff of course, SMN has the most complex rotation and nowdays even more than before which makes him a bit weak already.

in fact just not much profit for all other players from SMN support skills which need be changed.
just need take a look at fflogs SMN dps are really poor compare with other jobs.

regards hobbit