Are there more tanks playing now?

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Originally Posted by CoolCat

Yea a WAR I talked to, stop being a WAR because their dps wasn't as high anymore.

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It's a clear confession of "I'm just a wannabe DPS". WAR still does the most damage of the three tanks, so, if people only want a tank that do damage, they'd still play WAR.

It's also possible they find the damage they are inflicting from i185 in 3.1 is now the damage they inflict at i205 in 3.2. Which is hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's a clear confession of "I'm just a wannabe DPS". WAR still does the most damage of the three tanks, so, if people only want a tank that do damage, they'd still play WAR.

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Or, you know, they just want to clear stuff more quickly and tank isn't a good role to contribute towards that on now.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Or, you know, they just want to clear stuff more quickly and tank isn't a good role to contribute towards that on now.

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Without a tank, the party will die.
Dead people don't clear stuff.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Or, you know, they just want to clear stuff more quickly and tank isn't a good role to contribute towards that on now.

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Tanks still contribute heavily to the speed of a run. Tanks will still deal much more damage than a poor dps (or poor anything really). Tanks can still adjust and focus their playstyle to make runs faster and deal more damage.

The difference really comes in two places: The total DPS dealt is less, and now many will be using Fending Accessories instead of Slaying. While a DPS nerf is certainly annoying, I'll take being able to roll Need on accessories optimal for my class over some extra DPS.

I think Launched's point is that if you have an average tank and an average DPS, having an above average DPS will result in higher gDPS contribution/speed than having an above average tank will. I think it depends on what your perception of the "average" is, though.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Without a tank, the party will die.
Dead people don't clear stuff.

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So? Someone can tank. It just won't be me, I'll be on DRG or WHM in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Claymore65

Tanks still contribute heavily to the speed of a run. Tanks will still deal much more damage than a poor dps (or poor anything really). Tanks can still adjust and focus their playstyle to make runs faster and deal more damage.

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Nowhere near as much as the other two roles now. Any average tank can grab a bunch of mobs now and hold aggro on them with 23-24k HP, even the pre-3.2 VIT ones. Meanwhile people that were used to STR got a straight nerf, closing the gap between them.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think Launched's point is that if you have an average tank and an average DPS, having an above average DPS will result in higher gDPS contribution/speed than having an above average tank will. I think it depends on what your perception of the "average" is, though.

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This, pretty much. Runs will go much faster if I go as DRG and outdamage most DPS players, or if I go as WHM and actually contribute DPS. Closing the gap in the 2 types of tank players the way 3.2 did just means that playing optimally doesn't offer much over being average. My 3.2 tank contribution is less than 3.1 (9 ilvls and 15 weapon ivls ago), never mind the extra DPS that actual DPS jobs and healers gained from new gear. Plus the new dungeons are just annoying with gating so you can expect almost every tank player to deal with them well enough.

Im still tanking. The change really didn't bother me and I'm almost back to the attack power I was at pre nerf.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

I think Launched's point is that if you have an average tank and an average DPS, having an above average DPS will result in higher gDPS contribution/speed than having an above average tank will. I think it depends on what your perception of the "average" is, though.

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I understand that people don't like doing less damage. But if it goes to the point where you stop tanking, you're just a wannabe DPS.
And having more HP can help you pull more mobs at the same time, allowing for...faster dungeons.

And, again, WAR is not an "average" tank, it's still doing the most DPS of the three tanks.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Nowhere near as much as the other two roles now. Any average tank can grab a bunch of mobs now and hold aggro on them with 23-24k HP, even the pre-3.2 VIT ones.

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It's funny because we've seen content cleared without any DPS...we've also seen content clear without any healer...where is the content cleared without any tank ?
You might want to rethink your "tank contribute nowhere near as much as DPS"

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's funny because we've seen content cleared without any DPS...we've also seen content clear without any healer...where is the content cleared without any tank ?

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You can clear content without attacking at all from anyone, no heals from anything for the duration of the instance? Such hyberbole. Please end this charade of semantics.

Most content will require a form of DPS, healing and tanking, tanking as in the act of sustaining damage and not dying from it. Healing said damage from internal or external sources and lastly DPS(meaning outgoing damage from the party) from either yourself or in lieu of other party members.

All Launched is saying is that with the nerf of Tank DPS while before we were contributing more to overall DPS, now we contribute less and are forced to focus more on tanking outgoing damage meant for the party. Yes we still do some damage but not as much as before which as a DRK/WAR wielding a fucking Greatsword/Greataxe I imagine some players would find the change offensive and will have to adapt. And because Tanks do less damage clear times will be slightly longer.

Very, very slightly longer. They reduced it by about 20-30% right? So the ones doing less than the DPS are now doing 70% of the damage they used to. And in Cleric Stance, a Healer would be doing more damage than a Tank anyways, usually... So, what does that percentage translate into for clearing the dungeon? Anyone have numbers on it?

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Yes we still do some damage but not as much as before which as a DRK/WAR wielding a fucking Greatsword/Greataxe I imagine some players would find the change offensive and will have to adapt. And because Tanks do less damage clear times will be slightly longer.

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Great Sword and Great Axe don't matter. A DPS could use wet noodles to hit, it will still do more damage than you because the game says so. In case you didn't realize, we're already outdamaged by someone using little knives, or even bare-handed.

Again, my issue is not that people complain about tank doing less damage, it's that it's enough for them to quit, meaning that they didn't care about the main focus of their role.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, my issue is not that people complain about tank doing less damage, it's that it's enough for them to quit, meaning that they didn't care about the main focus of their role.

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Pretty much this sums why people are leaving the tank ranks; they just wanted easy runs, and now that the game asks more from them, the flee.

In the bright side, at least now ex-tanks will have a nice role-playing set to show in the Quicksands, and can cosplay as Cloud and show their inner darklord.

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Originally Posted by MilaDazol

Pretty much this sums why people are leaving the tank ranks; they just wanted easy runs, and now that the game asks more from them, the flee.

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Have you ever actually tanked something or did you just fate grind your way to 60? Tank-exclusive mechanics are some of the easiest things in the game and we're upset that SE just wants to restrict us to that instead of doing more. The bad VIT tanks that just wanted to hold aggro and afk? They're happy with these changes because it increased their enmity and dps. Good STR ones? A straight nerf overall, because generally they're the people that want to do well and knew how to pop cooldowns. We gained no survivability and lost damage/self healing.

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Originally Posted by Zadocfish

snip

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ALL GUESSTIMATION.

With how pitiful the mobs hit for in expert roulette and how Square gated big pulls, realistically a strength tank could make runs faster than they are now on expert. On older content I feel like the vit change has made things faster (outside of boss fights). As you've said, a tank isn't going to beat a healer on mobs for aoes as their aoe damage is pitiful (correct if i'm wrong on that). Since everyone wants to pull big and the old content isn't as gated, the extra hp buffer helps healers dps a lot more than quick dpsing then backing off to heal a strength tank. Sure I guess you could get into dps stance for a bit then Holmgang/Living Dead + a Benediction for quick dps before, but unless you had a coordinated group I assume most tanks are gonna be in tank stance regardless for big pulls.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Great Sword and Great Axe don't matter. A DPS could use wet noodles to hit, it will still do more damage than you because the game says so. In case you didn't realize, we're already outdamaged by someone using little knives, or even bare-handed.

Again, my issue is not that people complain about tank doing less damage, it's that it's enough for them to quit, meaning that they didn't care about the main focus of their role.

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It just matters to them and I can kinda sympathize with how they feel. However when I play as a tank class I generally play it not only to ensure a smooth dungeon run for my friends but to focus on the main drawing point which is tanking 101. Because so many other Tanks just suck at what they do.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Have you ever actually tanked something or did you just fate grind your way to 60?

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Marauder was my starting class, and Warrior is still my main job, so yeah, I know how to tank.

What are you crying about is that you miss the overpowered warrior that had dps-tier damage, super self heals, no aggro management at all, and a rotation a lot easier than any dps.

Yes, I was full STR WAR in last patch, but I like a lot more the new VIT meta, as I need to be more strategic about my resources, and finally I can roll and use accessories designed to my class. yeah I lost 20+-% of my dps, but the job now is a lot more interesting to play. If you miss STR that much, spend some gil and meld some V materia on your accessories.

And of course tank mechanics are easier than other classes, because if a dps fucks it up, is a slower run; is a tank gets it wrong, is a wipe (obviously in savage all must give 100%)

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Originally Posted by MilaDazol

And of course tank mechanics are easier than other classes, because if a dps fucks it up, is a slower run; is a tank gets it wrong, is a wipe (obviously in savage all must give 100%)

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I never understood this logic. I'm assuming we aren't talking 8 man normal content where Co-tank can just take boss (and handle everything himself if he wanted) or savage where if one person wipes then its tough for everyone regardless. So i'm guessing you mean dungeons? I never really had trouble/seeing others healing a dps when a tank left duty finder UNLESS its a big pull. You can easily improvise without a tank on dungeons if everyone is on the same page. In extreme cases you could just as easily sleep some enemies or have titan out if any of your party members have those abilities. DPS' have cooldowns as well.
Now if a healer is dead then thats much more likely to wipe depending how much health mob/boss has and how good your dps is.

No offense but thats a pretty crappy excuse to making tank mechanics boring most of the time where its mainly just a tank swap and positioning here and there.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Have you ever actually tanked something or did you just fate grind your way to 60? Tank-exclusive mechanics are some of the easiest things in the game and we're upset that SE just wants to restrict us to that instead of doing more. The bad VIT tanks that just wanted to hold aggro and afk? They're happy with these changes because it increased their enmity and dps. Good STR ones? A straight nerf overall, because generally they're the people that want to do well and knew how to pop cooldowns. We gained no survivability and lost damage/self healing.

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Oh, so you were that kind of tank...the one so full of himself who tries to pretend than DPS on tank is hard to improve, as if the rotation was not utterly basic.
And the one who considers that STR = good tank and VIT = bad tank, totally ignoring the fact that it does not change in any way how you play your tank and how you manage your cooldowns.

I'm liking this change more and more just to get rid of people with that kind of mentality.

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Originally Posted by Gameplayzero

So i'm guessing you mean dungeons? .

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Yeah, I mean dungeons, pretty much any non endgame content.

I know is not the best excuse to "making tank mechanics boring most of the time" but, if SE do it more difficult in casual content, people will complain, and you can say the same in for all roles ; DPS = kill some adds asap and interact to something ; Healers = heal some debuff and clean the party mistakes.

You are right on that Tanks usually have it a bit easier on mechanics , but Im guessing is because SE understand tanks have also a bit more responsibility on the party, as you are the one who dictates the pace, and if you as a tank die (or healer) as almost certain a wipe, so is easier to do it, but you cant mess it up.

To get to the point of this thread, I feel is that responsibility, the easier rotation and less dps are the factors which drive people away from tanking.

"Tanks don't have to be as perfect with their cooldowns."

Right... unless you want to take as little damage as possible so your healer can spend more time doing damage.

Somehow 150 damage > 250 damage > 400 damage was fun but 120 damage > 200 damage > 320 damage isn't?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Oh, so you were that kind of tank...the one so full of himself who tries to pretend than DPS on tank is hard to improve, as if the rotation was not utterly basic.

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No, DPSing is easy too. The point is that people who actually tanked properly AND tried to do the most DPS they could got a straight nerf that put them closer to that PLD in full VIT that only spammed the Halone combo.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And the one who considers that STR = good tank and VIT = bad tank, totally ignoring the fact that it does not change in any way how you play your tank and how you manage your cooldowns.

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People who wore STR were generally good tanks, and people who wore VIT were generally bad tanks. That's a fact, with few exceptions (STR tanks that didn't pop cooldowns, tanks using VIT to make up for bad left side etc.). If you're not willing to play your job well, you're bad, and people wearing VIT when they didn't need it weren't trying to do their best.

In the end, it's everyone else's loss when good tanks don't queue as tank anymore and go as DPS/healer, so you end up with bad ones that do single pulls or don't pop cooldowns. I have just as much fun doing dungeons as DRG or WHM as I did on 3.1 WAR.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, DPSing is easy too. The point is that people who actually tanked properly AND tried to do the most DPS they could got a straight nerf that put them closer to that PLD in full VIT that only spammed the Halone combo.


People who wore STR were generally good tanks, and people who wore VIT were generally bad tanks. That's a fact, with few exceptions (STR tanks that didn't pop cooldowns, tanks using VIT to make up for bad left side etc.). If you're not willing to play your job well, you're bad, and people wearing VIT when they didn't need it weren't trying to do their best.

In the end, it's everyone else's loss when good tanks don't queue as tank anymore and go as DPS/healer, so you end up with bad ones that do single pulls or don't pop cooldowns. I have just as much fun doing dungeons as DRG or WHM as I did on 3.1 WAR.

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Medic! I strained my eye muscles from reading this post and rolling them too much.

Your entire premise that tanks who wore the right accessories (i.e. never jumped on this wannabe DPS bandwagon in the first place) were bad is complete rubbish. These tanks could be trusted to get the fundamentals of the job right and afforded healers the space to throw in some damage if they saw fit to do so. They also aren't so reckless as to think they can pull 7-8 enemies and live through it, especially in these new endgame dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Launched

People who wore STR were generally good tanks, and people who wore VIT were generally bad tanks. That's a fact, with few exceptions (STR tanks that didn't pop cooldowns, tanks using VIT to make up for bad left side etc.). If you're not willing to play your job well, you're bad, and people wearing VIT when they didn't need it weren't trying to do their best.

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It's a fact based on the vey few tanks you see or heard of in regards to the whole community. It's called confirmation bias.

It's also far more dependant on the rest of the team, especially, the healer, who, depending on its skill or its gear, could need a higher safety net offered by a larger HP pool.
And again, it has nothing to do with how you "play" your job. You make it sound like "having good skill" as a tank can be summed up as "wearing STR accessories".

The sad part, is that the changes...changes nothing about how you play your job. You'd still need to understand the flow of each fight to pop your cooldowns accordingly, know your (pretty basic) rotation to do the most damage you can, etc...stance dancing is now even more a testimony of good tanks, since enmity has, at last, became something you have to really manage.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Your entire premise that tanks who wore the right accessories (i.e. never jumped on this wannabe DPS bandwagon in the first place) were bad is complete rubbish. These tanks could be trusted to get the fundamentals of the job right and afforded healers the space to throw in some damage if they saw fit to do so. They also aren't so reckless as to think they can pull 7-8 enemies and live through it, especially in these new endgame dungeons.

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I think it's pretty indisputable that if you knew the STR meta existed and chose to go against the tide, you were unoptimal. Bad? Maybe not, but it's definitely a bad sign when you know that the key to STR tanking was being a good tank in general and you decide to... not to do that. I think there are people, to this day, who never understood the STR meta - you didn't just pile it on 24/7 and not pay any mind to your HP/VIT. You tried to meet an HP threshold, and then invest in STR; So as you get more gear you're allowed more leniency with your accessories, which will keep your HP pool the same but increase your outgoing damage. So by piling on VIT, you may afford your healer 1 extra GCD, but you will lose damage on all your GCDs. In terms of dungeons and speed pulls, this was fine for PLD but WAR can literally self sustain and it was a gDPS gain for DRK.

There used to be a significant trade off from going Slaying -> Fending, and a bit smaller trade off going Slaying -> Crafted. Now that everything's been equalized, using a Slaying accessory and taking a chunk out of your health will only get you marginal gains at best and you'd probably see more gDPS just taking the extra VIT which could result in 1-2 extra healer GCDs which would actually be better.

VIT tanks were generally fine as tanks (they could mitigate things and hold aggro) and they likely didn't even know the STR meta existed, though due to that they were also generally unaware of how to properly speed pull - basically, if you did any kind of research at all on your job, you'd discover the STR meta so... it's sort of hard to avoid it without being completely inept from the community. I'm sure a lot of VIT tanks could do the whole tanking thing, but not at the speed/pace of a STR tank, and even if they did they'd still get slower times and significantly less DPS on the bosses. Now that everything's been equalized those VIT tanks that did pull big like the STR tanks are on equal footing, meaning min/maxing there will likely see less gDPS than min/maxing as a DPS.

As an example, say there's a tank that does (made up numbers inc) 500 DPS on a single pull and there's a DPS that does 1000. Maybe the tank is using tank stance, so the min/max tank would turn it off and self heal and etc resulting in say +150 DPS between the loss from the healer and the gain from the tank. Meanwhile, the min/max DPS could blow offensive CDs, use a different AOE rotation, and get like +300. In a perfect world you'd have a min/max tank and a min/max DPS, but if you can only have 1 the DPS is going to be the faster route.

The point is even if you go in with an exceptional tank, unless you also have exceptional DPS and an exceptional healer, you'd be better off going as an exceptional DPS and hoping for either an average tank or an exceptional one. The caveat to this is when you run into tanks that do single pulls - in this case, I'd rather be the tank and get the train moving along, which is largely why I prefer playing tank in dungeons. Then again, in my experience, you can still get those melee DPS who refuse to AOE and those BLMs who do their 2.0 rotation... but I digress.

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Originally Posted by Launched

People who wore STR were generally good tanks, and people who wore VIT were generally bad tanks.

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Just wanted to agree with others that you are wrong, as health alone did not tell the difference between "expert tank maximizing dps while fulfilling tank role and not being a burden on the healer" and "wants big numbers and short queues, can't hold aggro on even 1 target".

With the recent changes, more skill is required to maximize tank dps, not less. If you are actually interested in tank skill and weren't in it just to have higher dps than dps jobs, then you should be happy that the changes increase the skill cap.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Medic! I strained my eye muscles from reading this post and rolling them too much.

Your entire premise that tanks who wore the right accessories (i.e. never jumped on this wannabe DPS bandwagon in the first place) were bad is complete rubbish. These tanks could be trusted to get the fundamentals of the job right and afforded healers the space to throw in some damage if they saw fit to do so. They also aren't so reckless as to think they can pull 7-8 enemies and live through it, especially in these new endgame dungeons.

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It's not rubbish at all. "Wannabe DPS wagon"? It's a fact that STR accessories were better in most situations than VIT ones no matter what SE intended. If you knew that STR was better in whatever situation you were going into, and you still chose VIT, you were doing something wrong. Of course there's exceptions, I already mentioned a couple. The only thing that's complete rubbish here is your assumption that VIT meant the player was safer to heal, could pull more and could let the healer DPS more. That wasn't true at all with proper cooldown usage, and self healing on WAR/DRK.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The sad part, is that the changes...changes nothing about how you play your job. You'd still need to understand the flow of each fight to pop your cooldowns accordingly, know your (pretty basic) rotation to do the most damage you can, etc...stance dancing is now even more a testimony of good tanks, since enmity has, at last, became something you have to really manage.

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It doesn't change my playstyle at all, it changes how much I can offer a group as a tank vs other roles. I lost DPS and I'm not easier to heal. VIT tanks gained enmity and damage. Healers have gained more damage (and even accuracy). DPS have gained more damage.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Just wanted to agree with others that you are wrong, as health alone did not tell the difference between "expert tank maximizing dps while fulfilling tank role and not being a burden on the healer" and "wants big numbers and short queues, can't hold aggro on even 1 target".

With the recent changes, more skill is required to maximize tank dps, not less. If you are actually interested in tank skill and weren't in it just to have higher dps than dps jobs, then you should be happy that the changes increase the skill cap.

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Yeah, your accessories weren't the only thing that made you good or bad, but they're a pretty big indicatior when you go into somewhere like Fractal and get a WAR with 25k HP in Defiance which is completely unnecessary.

No more skill is required to maximise DPS, that DPS contribution just got lowered. There's no skill cap increase, the less skilled players just gained damage and enmity.

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Originally Posted by Launched

It doesn't change my playstyle at all, it changes how much I can offer a group as a tank vs other roles. I lost DPS and I'm not easier to heal. VIT tanks gained enmity and damage. Healers have gained more damage (and even accuracy). DPS have gained more damage.

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You're not easier to heal but you're definitely harder to kill.
As for enmity, I don't know how it goes as a WAR in 3.2, but as a PLD, I definitely generate far more than before when I'm in Shield Oath, so I'd even say I didn't lose much DPS, since I can afford far more Royal Authority.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Your entire premise that tanks who wore the right accessories (i.e. never jumped on this wannabe DPS bandwagon in the first place) were bad is complete rubbish.

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Players who do not adapt to the game, whether it was going strength before or going vit now, are 'bad'. That's the point of a changing game. It isn't about 'punishing' or 'rewarding' a static playerbase. It's about making adjustments. You either adapt with that, or you don't.

The developers -could- have just gutted strength with no attack power linked to Vitality. This means they understand that tank damage output is a thing, that they want it to be a thing, but without the hoops and perceived detriment while gearing a tank brings.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Players who do not adapt to the game, whether it was going strength before or going vit now, are 'bad'. That's the point of a changing game. It isn't about 'punishing' or 'rewarding' a static playerbase. It's about making adjustments. You either adapt with that, or you don't.

The developers -could- have just gutted strength with no attack power linked to Vitality. This means they understand that tank damage output is a thing, that they want it to be a thing, but without the hoops and perceived detriment while gearing a tank brings.

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Sorry that you'll have to use different avenues to make gil other than meldable STR rings, but that justification rings hollow. In my opinion, the devs took too long to make this correction and allowed things to get almost too far out of their control upon the release of Heavensward. Tanks really never should have been allowed to use Slaying rings in place of Fending. Imagine a Summoner needing healing accessories because some joker at these other fourms theorized they could be used as healers (thankfully, Yoshi put the brakes on that foolishness from the jump).

As far as I'm concerned, the fewer wannabes in the tank pool, the better. The quality of tanks has certainly gone up since the correction.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Yeah, your accessories weren't the only thing that made you good or bad, but they're a pretty big indicatior when you go into somewhere like Fractal and get a WAR with 25k HP in Defiance which is completely unnecessary.

No more skill is required to maximise DPS, that DPS contribution just got lowered. There's no skill cap increase, the less skilled players just gained damage and enmity.

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I'd actually argue that the skill cap for tank DPS did increase. Since we now produce less enmity outside of tank stance, and the large damage and number of tank swaps we see in Midas/Savage, we can't stay out of tank stance for 95% of a fight anymore. Before 3.2 "Stance dancing" effectively meant "DPS stance unless high damage/TB." Now it actually means stance dancing. So yeah, skill cap to increase our DPS did increase, just our potential DPS got lowered.

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Originally Posted by Launched

No, DPSing is easy too. The point is that people who actually tanked properly AND tried to do the most DPS they could got a straight nerf that put them closer to that PLD in full VIT that only spammed the Halone combo. People who wore STR were generally good tanks.

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This made me lol we have a lot of bad DPS in this game that even in ilvl 210 can't break over 600 DPS it's easier to DPS as a tank there's no positionals,No trances,procs, being a 1400+ DPS vs doing the bare minimum is truly a staple in 3.2. As for being a STR tank back in 3.0-3.1 they were better however, this did not mean that people who wore STR accs tanks were good tanks, there were many MANY bad tanks in STR gear and those tanks running around in full VIT didn't change or adapt so they're the same tanks as before.

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Originally Posted by Launched

the less skilled players just gained damage and enmity.

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Again, you're calling on gear to judge skill...that's just stupid.

You're making all of us great service by stopping being a part of the tank community.

Skill cap increase = Excellent!
Reward for Effort decrease = Not so great

It's great that (actual)Stance Dancing is made much harder and tanks are actually having to consider their tank priorities alot more now but the translation of effort to reward has been lowered.

To put into perspective in regards to DF dungeoning, it's much better to roll as a DPS than a tank simply by virtue that you are confident you will perform better than the norm of the respective roles.

So if we were to put effort into value and translate that effort into contribution it would be something like:

1-10 effort meter.
Tank: Each point of effort translates to 100 contribution.
DPS: Each point of effort translates to 150 contribution.

A rather poor tank would have an effort total of 3 resulting in 300 points worth of contribution versus a DPS with 3 points of effort would result in 450 points of contribution. If for example, you as a player can score a 9 on both roles, it is simply much more worthwhile to run as a DPS since each point of your own effort simply has more weight to the total of contribution.

E.g
Poor Tank = 3 Effort = 300 Contribution
DPS(You) = 9 Effort = 1350 Contribution
Total Contribution= 1650 Contribution

VS

Tank(You) = 9 Effort = 900 Contribution
Poor DPS = 3 Effort = 450 Contribution
Total Contribution = 1350 Contribution

It's no wonder that alot of people are now put off from DF dungeoning as tanks. They have to work harder, for less rewards. While knowing that if they swapped places with the poorly performing DPS, the run would go much faster as result. Worst off, if your healer is incapable, then the weight of your contribution takes another hit thanks to having to sit in tank stance to aid your weaker healer. My contribution is also dependent on the capability of someone else as well? GAH!

It's a also pretty much fact that if you willingly stayed full VIT while being aware of the statistical facts of STR bonuses and tradeoffs, you are indeed worse than STR tanks. Both roles have their garbage players, and due to the nature of STR tanking, it was more abundant. But it was also cold hard fact that a well executed STR tank simply outperformed a VIT tank statistically. This is absolutely undeniable.

You were objectively bad if you were stubborn and stayed full VIT to fulfill a "iron wall fantasy" despite knowing of the STR meta and refusing to adapt as a tank player.
The real problem that was solved with the changes(and rightfully so) is the confusion of the "right stat." No more dumb tradeoffs that compromised an aspect of your role. Now your stat makes you stronger in all regards, as it should have been.

Seriously don't go STR accessories now. The trade off is not worth anymore.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Again, you're calling on gear to judge skill...that's just stupid.

You're making all of us great service by stopping being a part of the tank community.

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Please, read my posts. I keep saying it's one of the indicators. Just one. Was every STR tank good? No, but at least when you first get into the dungeon you'd be more likely to think they're going to make it a good run than someone overloaded with HP. I specifically mentioned examples like if the tank is badly geared they shouldn't be wearing STR gear.

People would have better arguments if they stopped using extremes as crutches. The above argument, I'd dare to say, goes well out of the way to leave out DPS who do enough damage to complete duties AND tanks who fulfill their duties in managing aggro and adding in damage whenever possible. Speaking for myself only, I've rarely seen DPS do that little damage when I've tanked and I spare no effort in doing damage as a DPS or Tank. So the above post really doesn't hold much water with me.

As an aside, anyone claiming to be a career tank who avoids dungeons due to these changes really needs to stop lying to us and, more importantly, lying to themselves.

Directly comparing dps shows how corrupt tanking has become. Tanks want to optimize their own dps, when they should optimize team damage first, then do as much damage as they can without burdening the healer.

The contribution comparison places no value on tanking, only on dps.

A good tank with a poor team is more effective than a bad tank with a good team. Why? Because the tank impacts the performance of everyone else. The better the tank is, the better everyone else can perform.

If instead you dps or heal for a poor tank, your skill will be wasted because you will be limited by the tank. It makes no sense to argue you can do max contribution if the tank can't do their job.

I can't tell if the statement "My contribution is also dependent on the capability of someone else as well? GAH!" is sarcastic or serious. Obviously the performance of the party should depend on everyone.

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Originally Posted by Launched

Please, read my posts. I keep saying it's one of the indicators. Just one.

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Originally Posted by Launched

There's no skill cap increase, the less skilled players just gained damage and enmity.

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Since only VIT tanks gained damage, just connect the dots on what you're really saying there.

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Originally Posted by Launched

at least when you first get into the dungeon you'd be more likely to think they're going to make it a good run than someone overloaded with HP.

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Frankly, no. For the rare time when I'm not the tank, I really fear that the tank I have just jumped the STR wagon without any real understanding of how to manage it. It's probably also a confirmation bias, but I tend to trust a higher HP pool, because the important part, for me, is to do a smooth run, not a fast one.

I've seen too many runs filled to the brim with wipes, just because people tried to eat more than they could chew.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Tank: Each point of effort translates to 100 contribution.
DPS: Each point of effort translates to 150 contribution.

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Did you just arbitraty put a value on each role "effort" and calculate that the best is to accumulate as much point as you can on the highest base effort ?
Nobody need more that just basic calculation skills to find that :p

Can this thread and other cesspools of dated stat pontification go away now please?

Its over and its done with and a skilled tank is a skilled tank now, they're all wearing VIT. (Mfw Xeno made his A5S guide sitting pretty with 23k hp in Deliverence...)

Tanking is much more balanced in its challenge now. New content is forcing us to manage every aspect of our job while still maximizing our dps. It puzzles me why people are so fucking butthurt over this. Hell, at i220, I'm almost matching what i did at i210 just because the inflated crit/det melding and higher weapon damage from the seph weapon almost totally make up for the nerf.

There are all sorts of latent "buffs" in these changes too. We benefit from both vit and str party buffs, food buffs our dps more than any other job, and we're the only job that can buff our right-side AP through melds.

Move on.

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Originally Posted by Ironos

I'd actually argue that the skill cap for tank DPS did increase. Since we now produce less enmity outside of tank stance, and the large damage and number of tank swaps we see in Midas/Savage, we can't stay out of tank stance for 95% of a fight anymore. Before 3.2 "Stance dancing" effectively meant "DPS stance unless high damage/TB." Now it actually means stance dancing. So yeah, skill cap to increase our DPS did increase, just our potential DPS got lowered.

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I pointed out this some time ago but cheers for making it more clear, tho im not sure how much this affected WAR's as BB combo is still their best DPS combo so it might be not that bad for them(might need to run some dungeons as WAR to test this out). But for PLD and DRK they need to now choose if they use enmity combo or DPS combo while in DPS stance as STR is not carrying them anymore when it comes to enmity and not all groups have NiN, atm i like that when im in SwO/Grit-off i actually need to keep eye on those enmity bars and that didnt happen in 3.1 because of STR.