Tank Gear's Value for the Future.

I want to swing my axe and the monster to feel like they were poked with a toothpick. Seems legit.

Alright, so by the new calculations (and me being completely right.) we are going to start losing more dps every single patch that adds more stats to jewelry. It is pretty clear the developers did not think things through to the nerf very well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Alright, so by the new calculations (and me being completely right.) we are going to start losing more dps every single patch that adds more stats to jewelry. It is pretty clear the developers did not think things through to the nerf very well.

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Losing DPS would mean doing less dps with top tier 3.3 gear vs top tier 3.2. Good luck making that argument.

You can't lose that which you have never had. Your projection of what would have happened with STR tank meta and slaying accessories going forwards is of no relevance. The adjustment has been made, so adjust yourself. You do less damage, you have more HP. Going forwards, higher VIT and STR will increase your dps with every bump in ilvl. That's undeniably true. Your argument is based on your own projection of what might have happened. There is no loss, unless it's your perspective of course...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

I want to swing my axe and the monster to feel like they were poked with a toothpick. Seems legit.

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Must be a damned big tooth you pick with that thing then... ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Losing DPS would mean doing less dps with top tier 3.3 gear vs top tier 3.2. Good luck making that argument.

You can't lose that which you have never had. Your projection of what would have happened with STR tank meta and slaying accessories going forwards is of no relevance. The adjustment has been made, so adjust yourself. You do less damage, you have more HP. Going forwards, higher VIT and STR will increase your dps with every bump in ilvl. That's undeniably true. Your argument is based on your own projection of what might have happened. There is no loss, unless it's your perspective of course...



Must be a damned big tooth you pick with that thing then... ;)

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Say new pieces of jewelry come out.


DPS: 70 Strength
Tank: 70 Vitality

x5 DPS Increase:
Tank: 157.5
DPS: 350.

____


Now lets look at future gear.

DPS: 140 Strength
Tank: 140 Vitality

x5 DPS Increase:
Tank: 315.
DPS: 700.

This is pretty basic math.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

This is pretty basic math.

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Pretty basic math is this. formerly we had 1 STR = 1 AP.

Now we have 1 VIT = 0.45 AP *and* 1 STR = 0.45 AP.

Relative to our prior performance, we are at 90% of the former AP, assuming you balance your VIT and STR. That is a one time adjustment. The future remains to be seen and it depends on how they balance the primary stats on gear going forwards. If there is more VIT on gear than STR generally, then It all offesets in the end because our overall AP will not drop below that 90%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Pretty basic math is this. formerly we had 1 STR = 1 AP.

Now we have 1 VIT = 0.45 AP *and* 1 STR = 0.45 AP.

Relative to our prior performance, we are at 90% of the former AP, assuming you balance your VIT and STR. That is a one time adjustment. The future remains to be seen and it depends on how they balance the primary stats on gear going forwards. If there is more VIT on gear than STR generally, then It all offesets in the end because our overall AP will not drop below that 90%.

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Jewelry only has one stat on it. As stats go up, tank DPS will go down.

Unless they decrease the amount of strength and stats on all DPS gear.

First Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 95% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

Second Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 90% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

Third Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 85% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

That is because as stats go up, scaling goes down further and further.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Jewelry only has one stat on it. As stats go up, tank DPS will go down.

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Melded jewelery can have 2.

However, the point is that the balance of VIT vs STR is important now because you have to fins enough stat budget to boost both. So it depends entirely on how the gear shakes out going forwards. Personally I think that they should have put a weighting of 0.5 on VIT and 0.45 on STR because the difficulty of gaining an optimal amount of both at the same time is not trivial. Your math is wrong because you are assuming things we do not know.

We do know that SE will be watching the logs and checking tank DPS in particular to ensure that the balance hasn't shifted more than intended. If the balance has shifted too far, then expect to see adjustments to the weighting of the stats in the damage calculation.

http://static2.hypable.com/wp-conten...sistoomuch.gif
How I feel for my non-overmelded OT DPS brothers and sisters^

They basically took a loss, plds might not feel it due to the 5% buff but how often is a pld OT anyway?

I remember reading somewhere that the new jewelry cannot have STR/VIT overmelds? Can't seem to find it though. Does anyone know if this is true?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mycow8me

They basically took a loss, plds might not feel it due to the 5% buff but how often is a pld OT anyway?

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Actually, PLD DPS went down even with the buffs they made to PLD skills.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_and_post_32/

Just shows how garbage PLD is as a class. There's literally no reason at all to play one over another tank class, and the developers attempt to "buff PLD has addressed absolutely nothing.

The only thing they have achieved is making it even more frustrating to run Duty Finder, as there is absolutely nothing a PLD can do to take down adds or bosses if the randomly elected DPS are bad at their class -- which is pretty much every DF these days.

They should just change all the PLD swords to wet noodles.

God help new players who choose to level a GLD / PLD. Soloing has become even worse than it was before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

Actually, PLD DPS went down even with the buffs they made to PLD skills.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...e_and_post_32/

Just shows how garbage PLD is as a class. There's literally no reason at all to play one over another tank class, and the developers attempt to "buff PLD has addressed absolutely nothing.

The only thing they have achieved is making it even more frustrating to run Duty Finder, as there is absolutely nothing a PLD can do to take down adds or bosses if the randomly elected DPS are bad at their class -- which is pretty much every DF these days.

They should just change all the PLD swords to wet noodles.

God help new players who choose to level a GLD / PLD. Soloing has become even worse than it was before.

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I just hope you know that PLD got buffed in relation to the other tanks but tank damage across the board got nerfed. A brief look in the reddit link and you will see the DMG difference to a DRK in ShO(compared to Grit) dropped from 25% to 12% or something and SwO(compared to no Grit) from 8% to 4%.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Melded jewelery can have 2.

However, the point is that the balance of VIT vs STR is important now because you have to fins enough stat budget to boost both. So it depends entirely on how the gear shakes out going forwards. Personally I think that they should have put a weighting of 0.5 on VIT and 0.45 on STR because the difficulty of gaining an optimal amount of both at the same time is not trivial. Your math is wrong because you are assuming things we do not know.

We do know that SE will be watching the logs and checking tank DPS in particular to ensure that the balance hasn't shifted more than intended. If the balance has shifted too far, then expect to see adjustments to the weighting of the stats in the damage calculation.

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So basicly tanks have to "pay" to be as good as other classes. However no other class has to do that?

Yup, Nek's math is still wrong...so sad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

I just hope you know that PLD got buffed in relation to the other tanks but tank damage across the board got nerfed. A brief look in the reddit link and you will see the DMG difference to a DRK in ShO(compared to Grit) dropped from 25% to 12% or something and SwO(compared to no Grit) from 8% to 4%.

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You seem to be trying really hard to ignore the fact that in the example parsers, the PLD went from 677.97 to 571.23, while his DRK in the same freakin gear only went from 1030.44 to 851.41.

Again.

DRK 851.41

PLD 571.23

Do you not understand the freakin problem here??

Anyone who claims PLD was buffed should just slap themselves. Seriously, just slap yourself. PLD was supposed to be put on par with DRK and WAR, and the gap between them is still rather enormous. There's absolutely no way to justify this difference since tank mitigation is pretty equal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

You seem to be trying really hard to ignore the fact that in the example parsers, the PLD went from 677.97 to 571.23, while his DRK in the same freakin gear only went from 1030.44 to 851.41.

Again.

DRK 851.41

PLD 571.23

Do you not understand the freakin problem here??

Anyone who claims PLD was buffed should just slap themselves. Seriously, just slap yourself. PLD was supposed to be put on par with DRK and WAR, and the gap between them is still rather enormous. There's absolutely no way to justify this difference since tank mitigation is pretty equal.

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http://i.imgur.com/hI9iT0V.png

DRK:
1030 to 850 is more or less -17%

PLD:
960 to 820 is more or less -14%

Pre 3.2
1030(DRK) to 960(PLD) is more or less 6-7% difference

Post 3.2
850(DRK) to 820(PLD) is more or less 3-4% difference.


EDIT: I just remembered how to calculate into percentage. It's (DIFFERENCE/TOTAL)*100 RIGHT?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Snip

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Nothing ever brings a tear to my eye like watching Nek basically get completely decimated by obvious logic and math. c:

The DRKs average DPS with the vit build from the parse was 764.6 before the patch. (darkside/ no grit)
The DRKs average DPS with the vit build from the parse was 842.6 after the patch. (darkside/ no grit)

The PLD average DPS with vit build from the parse was 493 before the patch. (Shield oath)
The PLD average DPS with vit build from the parse was 599 after patch. (shield oath)

The PLD average DPS with vit build from the parse was 692 before patch. (Sword Oath)
The PLD average DPS with vit build from the parse was 804 after patch. (Sword Oath)

If you compare the STR builds, you will see drops regardless of class.

We don't know the Ilvl differences between the two but if you compare them, you should use sword oath parse because the DRK parse is darkside only, no grit.
The gap is literally 842-804 difference between the DRK and PLD.

... I think your wet noodle got upgraded.

@FallenWings:

If PLD's tanked in Sword Oath then you might have a point.

You quoted Sword Oath numbers. Likely on purpose, cause it supports your argument, even though it is obvious to anyone that PLD cannot tank in Sword Oath. DRK can tank while Darkside is active.

@Mycow8me: Unlike PLD, DRK's do not need to be in Grit (their defensive / enmity boost stance) in order to tank. Their rotation is built around picking up and dropping grit as needed, whereas PLD must stay in Shield Oath the entire time because the DPS issue (especially lack of AoE) causes enmity issues. Without Shield Oath, Flash is basically useless and without flash a PLD simply cannot tank trash or pick up adds that spawn during boss encounters.

DRK experiences no issue like this, and they are actually designed to drop Grit to use key abilities used while tanking.

1. PLD can tank in Sword Oath. It may be harder to hold hate but y'know, your co-tank and NINs exist. WAR? Unchained+Berserk. DRK? DRK. I honestly don't know what they do other than pure damage after the first two PS.
2. OT exists.
3. What are you suggesting? PLD ShO does equal to DRK no Grit? And then DRK still eats -20% with Grit on?
4. New patch. For all we know it's probably gonna be alot harder to even hold hate outside of tank stance with the DPS nerf. PLD's Savage Blade(which is also in RA combo) enmity got buffed for a little extra(though needed) sprinkling. ShO Damage penalty got reduced to -15% vs Grit(-20%). GB and RA potency buffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

1. PLD can tank in Sword Oath. It may be harder to hold hate but y'know, your co-tank and NINs exist.

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Heaven forbid that PLD be considered an equally useful MT instead of an OT for when you can't find a DRK.

Quote:

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3. What are you suggesting? PLD ShO does equal to DRK no Grit? And then DRK still eats -20% with Grit on?

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I suggest the developers get over whatever peculiar disdain they have for the PLD class and balance it with the other two tanks, starting with giving PLD a proper AoE attack to replace Flash which is 100% of the problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

So basicly tanks have to "pay" to be as good as other classes. However no other class has to do that?

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::rolls eys at myself::
I was walking back from a meeting when I realized that I made an error in my math because I included accessories on each half of my calculation for PLD. This was obviously wrong. So, I'll yank the remainder of this post and rework the math (unless of course someone else already has).

My apologies for my bad math.

Based on the current Stat weightings of STR & VIT (0.45 per point of each) vs a DD with STR = AP, I calculated the total stat budgets of 3 sets of gear. including weapons, armor and accessories. Tank was PLD with all Fending, DRG was DRG with all Slaying. Using the DRG set as the 'baseline' for the calculations we get...

Dravinian + Hive weapons (ilvl 200-ish)
PLD (715 STR + 735 VIT) * 0.45 = 652.5 AP
DRG 710 STR = 710 AP
Ratio PLD to DRG = 0.92

Gordian (ilvl 210)
PLD (789 STR + 821 VIT) * 0.45 = 724.5 AP
DRG 779 STR = 779 AP
Ratio PLD to DRG = 0.93

Top tier 3.2 (ilvl 245)
PLD (1044 STR + 1108 VIT) * 0.45 = 968.4 AP
DRG 1019 STR = 1019 AP
Ratio PLD to DRG = 0.95

Actually, far from losing, it seems that the top tier gear in 3.2 brings tank DPS potential up towards that of a DD.

You so blinded by your outrage that you utterly neglect to count the VIT *and* STR you get. Even with the 0.45 multiplier on both STR and VIT, the gap vs plain strength narrows as ilvl increases. Oh and one other thing, it's demonstrable that using slaying accessories will actually reduce your DPS potential now.

Also, if we had a 0.9 multiplier on our STR to AP calculation and went all STR, we would lose even more DPS, with the Gordian Set, for example, going from a 0.95 of base to a flat 0.9 of base. Blending VIT and STR was the way to go. Going all VIT with a 0.9 multiplier would leave our AP too high relative to DD jobs like DRG.

The correction is here.

Either way, the point I was making was that Nektulos-Tuor appears to be failing to count the VIT on accessories, and calculating it in such a way that the total stat budget for tanks is not in play.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/2304119/

I'm i208...with 1072 AP. So I'll be going down in AP with top tier 3.2 gear? Unless I'm misunderstanding something in your calculations.

If I am I apologize, I'm just confused lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Jewelry only has one stat on it. As stats go up, tank DPS will go down.

Unless they decrease the amount of strength and stats on all DPS gear.

First Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 95% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

Second Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 90% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

Third Gear Patch:
Tanks will do 85% of the damage they used to compared to DPS.

That is because as stats go up, scaling goes down further and further.

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I already explained why this is incorrect all the way back in post #29, on page 3. I was using estimates at the time, but even though the conclusion doesn't change, let's show the results using the actual numbers:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/8f29b90c9...s5gl6h_400.png

As you can see when we use the actual numbers, the ratio of the monk's damage-influencing stats from gear to the warrior's damage-influencing stats from gear actually decreases as item level increases, because vitality increases faster with item level than the primary damage stats:

• i150 rings have 29 VIT vs 31 STR
• i190 rings have 40 VIT vs 40 STR
• i210 rings have 49 VIT vs 47 STR
• i240 rings have 66 VIT vs 61 STR

(The formulas changed between 2.x and 3.x, but you can see that it's pretty consistent from i150 onwards.)

Its called stance dancing. If you need to flash adds, then switch stances. If you want to optimize damage, switch stances.
If you want shield oath up 24/7 and damage equal to a drk without grit, i just dont know what to say lol.

@ Mycow8me

Your suggestion would have more weight if stance dancing was part of PLD mechanics, which it is not. Whereas it is for DRK and WAR.

See a pattern here? Because PLD doesn't mechanically work like WAR and DRK, therein lies the issue.

*Practically non-existent AoE damage.
*Wholly dependent on Shield Oath for tanking.
*Applying a DoT requires performing a three hit combo that generates little enmity.
*HP recovery skill (Clemency) can't be used while tanking.
*Most mitigation cooldowns only work against physical attacks.

These are problems exclusive to PLD which DRK and WAR do not have. They both stance dance as part of their mechanics, they both can instant apply a DoT, they both can recover HP while tanking and they both have strong AoE damage.

In contrast, there isn't a single problem that WAR / DRK have which PLD don't possess. PLD has no advantage.

*sigh*
My math was wrong, as I said in my edit in my previous post, I included accessories where I should not in the calculation. Now, I'm hoping that I corrected things here, if not, I'm firing my calculator.

Fixing that error the numbers change to;

Dravinian + Hive weapons
PLD to DRG = 0.786

Gordian
PLD to DRG = 0.789

Top tier ilvl 245 from 3.2
PLD to DRG = 0.805

Unfortunatly my mistake drops the ratio between PLD (tanks in general ) and DRG (STR based DPS) to between 0.786 and 0.805, which is much less than my original calculation.

However, my point was, and still is, we are not losing DPS as Nektulos-Tuor says we are. If you project out the DPS tanks were capable of in 3.1 and project it forwards with increasing ilvl, our new DPS will be below that line. But, there is no loss of DPS because that's a false comparison. We are not losing anything more with each ilvl bump because of the scaling of the stats.

If you look at the stats on the actual gear, the gap between VIT and STR is actually increasing, even though STR is baseline and the same on tank and DD gear. In other words, VIT is increasing faster than STR is. Looking at just the armor and weapons, on the Dravinian gear with Hive weapons, there were 1.04 points of VIT for every point of STR, on the Gordian there were 1.06 points of VIT for each point of STR and on the ilvl 245 set there are 1.09 points of VIT for every point of STR.

So although there has been both a change to the primary stat and calculation, we're not losing more and more DPS over time, and based on the progression of the gear I looked at, over time the VIT on gear seems to be increasing at a faster rate than STR, resulting in a net gain of DPS as ilvl increases.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...acter/2304119/

I'm i208...with 1072 AP. So I'll be going down in AP with top tier 3.2 gear? Unless I'm misunderstanding something in your calculations.

If I am I apologize, I'm just confused lol

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If this was intended for me, my calculations is looking exclusively at the impact of the stats on our gear, I did not include our optional points, or the impact of DET.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

If this was intended for me, my calculations is looking exclusively at the impact of the stats on our gear, I did not include our optional points, or the impact of DET.

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It was, yeah ^^;

I was just confused because even accounting for the race bonus of Au Ra (+23) and bonus stats (+~35), I still end up with 1014 (thus, 1014 AP) strength at i208, which while lower than your number for i245 gear drg (holy crap they pushed it to i245?!), it was only by 5 on your original post (have not checked the edit yet). Also since we agree 1 str = 1 AP for DRG, DET doesn't factor into AP unless 622 DET < 1 STR.

EDIT: I'm not arguing the point that Tanks are losing dps over time--the numbers stack up well enough to prove that wrong, I've seen so far. I'm just trying to get the best understanding of your tank calculations I can :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

It was, yeah ^^;

I was just confused because even accounting for the race bonus of Au Ra (+23) and bonus stats (+~35), I still end up with 1014 (thus, 1014 AP) strength at i208, which while lower than your number for i245 gear drg (holy crap they pushed it to i245?!), it was only by 5 on your original post (have not checked the edit yet). Also since we agree 1 str = 1 AP for DRG, DET doesn't factor into AP unless 622 DET < 1 STR.

EDIT: I'm not arguing the point that Tanks are losing dps over time--the numbers stack up well enough to prove that wrong, I've seen so far. I'm just trying to get the best understanding of your tank calculations I can :)

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I'm sorry, I should have been clearer, I wasn't trying to calculate actual or effective AP in-game. I was just looking at the gearsets to see whether what NT was claiming was even remotely the case. I don't have a good enough handle on all of the ins and outs of the secondary stats and other factors that play in, I was simply comparing the pure STR build for a DRG (as an example) in DRG gear + slaying accessories to a tank (PLD) in full fending. Looking at just the primary stats, it was clear that there is no stacking loss building over time, just a flat rate nerf.

You should see the pieces of paper I was scrawling the numbers on, if I'd included everything I'd have needed an Excel sheet for it...lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I'm sorry, I should have been clearer, I wasn't trying to calculate actual or effective AP in-game. I was just looking at the gearsets to see whether what NT was claiming was even remotely the case. I don't have a good enough handle on all of the ins and outs of the secondary stats and other factors that play in, I was simply comparing the pure STR build for a DRG (as an example) in DRG gear + slaying accessories to a tank (PLD) in full fending. Looking at just the primary stats, it was clear that there is no stacking loss building over time, just a flat rate nerf.

You should see the pieces of paper I was scrawling the numbers on, if I'd included everything I'd have needed an Excel sheet for it...lol.

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Ahh, okay I can see that! Thanks for clearing that up :3

What are you even talking about. This was about the gap between dps which was smaller than you thought on the chart. Now were suddenly on the topic of skills and abilities.
My pld friend stance dances all the times. After you have a certain amount of hate on bosses, u can switch to sword oath and retain hate comfortably. You can even switch back for mechanics in a fight that require it.
Paladins wanted the gap closed dps wise and you got it. If you want it to play like war or dark thats another story.
It IS a part of your mechanics. You want to do more dps, you dance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by therpgfanatic

@FallenWings:

If PLD's tanked in Sword Oath then you might have a point.

You quoted Sword Oath numbers. Likely on purpose, cause it supports your argument, even though it is obvious to anyone that PLD cannot tank in Sword Oath. DRK can tank while Darkside is active.

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My PLD could pull over 800 in A3S over 12 minutes, he spent most of it in sword oath after initial pull unless he needed shield for cleaves or mechanics.

"PLD cannot tank in sword oath" my ass.