The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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Hi I know you don't like directly responding to important questions so you can stay on message and continue to parade that Yoshida comment around, which I am sure at this point is framed and placed on an altar with burning candles and incense, but can you give us a time frame of how long you will continue to get mad over something that will never change? Maybe there will be a point where you stop dragging it into literally every thread ever?

Also I don't see where in that yoshida post he is talking about dungeons? He is talking about 8 man raids, if you are going to continue citing it like it's statute at least address why that is relevant at all, or is it because you cannot relate to the subject for some reason? Important questions likely to not be given an adequate answer.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

There is far more wrong with housing than anyone wants to admit to. The lack of instancing, the abhorrent costs, and the fact that every home is already taken before you can even blink when they add more wards.

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If every plot is gone after a blink of the eye, then the prices were just too low, not too high.

Lack of housing plots is a real problem, but people need to stop complaining about how expensive they are. Its really not that hard to save up gil for an S house.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

in FFXI and in a lot of other game even with the best gear in the game you can't just take on 15 mobs and aoe them down. Actually i dps ninja. Here is what you do to aoe. Huton->Kassatu->Doton->Spam death blossom until you can cast either doton or maybe katon depending on the situation. Most of the time you're pressing death blossom. Yes it is one button and yes i do perform in high numbers. What else is there to do. The game design is bad with regards to mobs and it's starting to show with player habits

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Well there's your problem. You're AoE DPSing on a job that is not designed for large AoE DPS. Try BLM out. You'll love it.

Source: i130 ninja main

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

There is far more wrong with housing than anyone wants to admit to. The lack of instancing, the abhorrent costs, and the fact that every home is already taken before you can even blink when they add more wards.

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Again, that's not this thread. If everyone deserved a house, the they would have pulled the kind of nonsense Mabinogi did with the "homestead" and it would be come an unlimited resource farm for botters. That is why instanced housing is the wrong thing to do, even if well intentioned.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

DPS healers... not so big a deal in my opinion. Sure, you'll get some idiots who think that spamming Holy instead of actually healing is considered beneficial, then blame the tank when they inevitably die. You also get some idiots who forget they're in clerics stance and start madly spamming heals on you because they didn't realize it reduces cures by 20%. But there are plenty of people out there who have a good balance.

If you can do it without it harming the flow, then go for it.

Besides, regardless of what Yoshi-P says I firmly believe that some content was designed with healer DPS in mind. I base this on the sheer amount of damage needed in those instances and the minimum ilvl set by the developers. Simply put, in much high end content, you would be hard-pressed to win without healer damage if you played at the base item level for that dungeon simply because there are often rage mechanics in place.

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What Yoshi-P said was that they designed the dungeon content without taking into account the healer DPS. This is not by any means a "hardcore" game, so players who actually have all the gear from the previous dungeon should have no problem playing the current dungeon content. DF PUG's are not the same thing as Static's. Many of the arguments about DPS'ing as a healer completely ignore the conditions that are allowing them to DPS at all.

For example, Sometimes I get a raid where nearly no healing is required, this is because the other healer is a scholar, their fairy is doing all the reactive healing AND the players are actively avoiding taking damage, and likely also are well overgeared.

But what ticks me off is this (different from above):
http://i62.tinypic.com/149p288.png
Because the player just straight up went "I'm not gonna heal, at all" (and indeed didn't exit CS except to unnecessarily use Medica II,) and this has been happening more frequently. Which means that I'm having to do MY job and THEIR job.

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Originally Posted by Hieral

Well there's your problem. You're AoE DPSing on a job that is not designed for large AoE DPS. Try BLM out. You'll love it.

Source: i130 ninja main

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Truth right hurr.... I've given up trying to do anything AoE on and DPSer that isn't designed for AoEs. And really, for the most part the only one really ever best suited is BLM, lol. Everything does so at too high a TP cost with too low a dmg output or in SMN's case just takes damn forever to get every dot out if there are more than four mobs.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

"Healer must DPS" argument is completely demolished. End of story.

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...are you the Iraqi Information Minister? Loved your work in the early 90s.

Your capacity to spin information to make your arguments regardless of what's going on around you is almost impressive. Whenever I think we're making some progress, you relapse into the same debunked rhetoric.

Why are the dungeons synched down to i100? they would be more challanging if they synched um down way more. Like synch um down to there original level when they were first realeased. Like Wonderer's palace, normal should be synched to around ilvl 60, same with AK normal.

Plus CT and prae isnt even synched at all, there a total joke now.

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Originally Posted by Mercuito

i stopped reading when you said this.

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And I bet many people stopped reading most of your blather since you insist on using a mathematical short form as a substitute for the word 'because.' [cos]
Sorry, I'm not normally a grammar nazi but that was just ridiculous!

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

What Yoshi-P said was that they designed the dungeon content without taking into account the healer DPS.

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No he is not he was talking about 8 man raids. Raids. Stop ignoring people who point this out and address the 8 man coil raids he was referring to, not CT, not dungeons. RAIDS.

Why can't you talk about the 8 man raids? The dynamic of 4 and 24 mans is not the same if you can't talk about the 8 man raids then stop talking.

Also I like that the person saying they're going to holy trash was being very nice about it. You're not the good guy in this story. Why are you mad that he is DPSing, because you want to DPS instead? I thought you liked healing, that's baffling consider the incoming damage is so low that 6 healers is completely redundant in CT raids; you would literally have nothing to heal if everyone tried healing.

So you don't want to DPS, you don't want others to dps, you want 6 heals to heal in CT when all incoming damage can be covered by regen and faeries. Do you want to do anything? You're being as bad as any snobby elitist who demands that healers DPS except instead of demanding people play well you are demanding people play bad.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrias

Why are the dungeons synched down to i100? they would be more challanging if they synched um down way more..

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i110 and it's not further down because gear should matter.

But you're in luck because HW will include a feature where you get the option to sync a dungeon down to the minimum item level for the dungeon. Please look forward to it. Hai.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There is nothing wrong with housing in this game. If you make housing cheap for everyone, then nothing but bots will fill them up to flip them as another source of RMT....

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So if housing was more available and thus easier to get a hold of, bots would buy them to flip them, a practice that only exists because of the difficulty of getting a house? That is a silly argument. Flipping houses also revolves around interactions and good faith trades, something that bots and RMT can not take for granted when deciding their actions. It's why they're in the materia and shard/crystal buisness. It's low skill, high volume, hands off stuff.

Housing as a system matters little on any server with a large population, because all lots are taken. It's not acting as a gil sink, because the only transactions that are going on are giving large amounts of money to the already rich, and it's not acting as a boost to the economy because so few people are looking for furnishings. In addition, housing provides several high demand items through gardening, which means that if you're rich enough to buy a house you have access to several ways to make yourself richer. With the addition of Free Company crafting and Airships, this will only get worse. Housing is straight busted on servers with high pops, and only through massive increases in how many there are will this get any better.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

So if housing was more available and thus easier to get a hold of, bots would buy them to flip them...

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I'm pointing out that the reason people are complaining about housing is for entirely selfish reasons, and not for any perceived broken way of handling how they were sold to players or FC's. RMT's have more money available then players, the would with absolute certainty make sure that any mechanism to increase housing would again be made scarce. This is only resolved by getting rid of the demand for housing entirely, which means getting rid of the ability to have a community-oriented house in favor of instances that nobody but you can use. We already saw this in Version 1.0's Market board/Retainer system. It was garbage. If you didn't set your retainer up in the first 10 minutes the servers went live, you were never getting a spot. This is also true in other games that have limited space. Hackers and bots get everything first. The only solution is to get rid of housing altogether. I'm not going to campaign for that. Join a FC if you need a house badly enough, that's the entire point of them. Not for players to create thousands of tiny FC's, but for there to be only a handful of large FC's.

On Topic:
Yoshi-P says the dungeon content was designed without the healer contributing to DPS. There is no other way of interpreting that.

If players are going to continue to take up healer slots on content only to DPS, they are making the job harder for the player that is actually doing their job. It's rather irritating to have a full RAID where none of the Tanks want to be the main tank, because they all joined wearing DPS gear, and it's also irritating to have repeat wipes because players are taking up the healer slot so the they have a fast queue and don't actually do any healing. Combine the two, and you unwinnable raid's where nobody gets past the first boss.

Absolutely disagree with the OP, I've always felt that part of the reward for getting geared up is being able to do things like aoe pull and brute force through bosses instead of having to do every mechanic perfectly. That's one of the most satisfying parts of getting gear and something good MMO's do, in my opinion anyway.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Absolutely disagree with the OP, I've always felt that part of the reward for getting geared up is being able to do things like aoe pull and brute force through bosses instead of having to do every mechanic perfectly. That's one of the most satisfying parts of getting gear and something good MMO's do, in my opinion anyway.

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Power creep is what bad MMO's do. FFXIV resolves this by having ilevel sync so you can't just solo every piece of content with an AOE burn and a stack of healing pots. But the ilevel sync is not set at a point that actually makes the dungeons fun, rather it's set at a level that either makes them not a challenge, or not set at all (eg MSQ,and all Raids) so that it becomes a push over and not worth the reward for the time spent.

V3.0 is supposed to give a "no sync" option and a "minimum sync" option to all the 2.x content which will likely make it so that nobody ever queues for this content again outside of leveling a new job.

@SarcasmMisser, 6 tanks and 6 heals in 24 player raid is too damn many to begin with.

No game with that many players in a raid has taken more than 3 tanks(norm is 2) and 5 healers unless your raid is bad and stands in stuff.

Both of my last raid teams 4 healed 24/25 player raids. WoW's lfr is 2 tank 5 heal.

6 and 6 is entirely unnecessary.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

V3.0 is supposed to give a "no sync" option and a "minimum sync" option to all the 2.x content which will likely make it so that nobody ever queues for this content again outside of leveling a new job.

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Those 2 options don't work in roulettes

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Power creep is what bad MMO's do. FFXIV resolves this by having ilevel sync so you can't just solo every piece of content with an AOE burn and a stack of healing pots. But the ilevel sync is not set at a point that actually makes the dungeons fun, rather it's set at a level that either makes them not a challenge, or not set at all (eg MSQ,and all Raids) so that it becomes a push over and not worth the reward for the time spent.

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Disagree, player power should increase, I've played in games with very little power creep, it's just awful when my character doesn't feel that much more powerful because of the lack of player power increase. I've always preferred incremental vertical progression models for MMO's where your power does increase and in time it does reach the point where you can overpower old content. If anything I'd prefer gear did more in the lower level dungeons and that our various skills and abilities wouldn't be locked out and instead just have their numbers reduced appropriately.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

@SarcasmMisser, 6 tanks and 6 heals in 24 player raid is too damn many to begin with.

No game with that many players in a raid has taken more than 3 tanks(norm is 2) and 5 healers unless your raid is bad and stands in stuff.

Both of my last raid teams 4 healed 24/25 player raids. WoW's lfr is 2 tank 5 heal.

6 and 6 is entirely unnecessary.

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Labyrinth of the of the ancients in the duty finder gives you six tanks and six healers for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Disagree, player power should increase, I've played in games with very little power creep, it's just awful when my character doesn't feel that much more powerful because of the lack of player power increase. I've always preferred incremental vertical progression models for MMO's where your power does increase and in time it does reach the point where you can overpower old content. If anything I'd prefer gear did more in the lower level dungeons and that our various skills and abilities wouldn't be locked out and instead just have their numbers reduced appropriately.



Labyrinth of the of the ancients in the duty finder gives you six tanks and six healers for some reason.

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Well alliance is split up later, so this allows each group to have 2 tanks and 2 healers when doing Atomos event.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Well alliance is split up later, so this allows each group to have 2 tanks and 2 healers when doing Atomos event.

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Ah gotcha, that makes sense. I only did Labyrinth once and the other tank told me to smack Atomos for a while and not to worry about anything else. Then doing Syrcus and WoD I thought it was weird there were only three tanks instead of the six from the raid before.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Well alliance is split up later, so this allows each group to have 2 tanks and 2 healers when doing Atomos event.

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Encounter design splitting the raid up that much is dumb.

And you really don't want 6 blinking tanks. Holy hell, talk about a good way to make the shortage worse.

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Originally Posted by Nadirah

@SarcasmMisser, 6 tanks and 6 heals in 24 player raid is too damn many to begin with.

No game with that many players in a raid has taken more than 3 tanks(norm is 2) and 5 healers unless your raid is bad and stands in stuff.

Both of my last raid teams 4 healed 24/25 player raids. WoW's lfr is 2 tank 5 heal.

6 and 6 is entirely unnecessary.

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As an exercise in how terrible of a healer you have to be to need 6 healers, I just did a WoD as a sch and had no trouble with both healers being in cleric stance all the time and keeping the tank up with non-gcd based healing. I was even in the alliance that was tanking the boss, how on earth do you feel stressed on heals when you have no tank to heal?

Kisa is going to be frustrated for all eternity because 99% of the healers out there have no trouble DPSing in faceroll content and they are never going to change for 1% that struggle to heal content that demands so little.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Well alliance is split up later, so this allows each group to have 2 tanks and 2 healers when doing Atomos event.

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Labyrinth was a bit of a mess to be honest. It feels like they struggled to find a good use for the extra tanks, but didn't want to change the party makeup to accommodate the fights. Instead they accommodated the fights to suit the party, and as a result it feels so out of place compared to the other two Crystal Tower fights.

Since Labyrinth was their first 'experiment' with 24 player raids, it only made sense that later ones would be more refined. That's why Syrcus Tower and World of Darkness only have 1 tank per party.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Labyrinth was a bit of a mess to be honest. It feels like they struggled to find a good use for the extra tanks, but didn't want to change the party makeup to accommodate the fights. Instead they accommodated the fights to suit the party, and as a result it feels so out of place compared to the other two Crystal Tower fights.

Since Labyrinth was their first 'experiment' with 24 player raids, it only made sense that later ones would be more refined. That's why Syrcus Tower and World of Darkness only have 1 tank per party.

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I think the intent was to have the parties take on "3 parts" where the MT in each party tanks the attacking boss and the OT picks up the adds. Because all the dungeon designs of Labyrinth save for the last boss reflects this pattern.

With ST, it's all single-boss designs, where the main tank should be tanking the boss, and the adds should be tanked by the OT's. In practice this isn't what happens. The DPS just pick off the adds with no tanking being done at all.

In WoD, they combined the split path element from Labyrinth again, and also added a different mechanic for Cerberus (going inside) that also split the parties up.

But I think the real reason for this change was that there simply aren't enough Tanks to split across 3 raids. Not until there is some roulette mechanism at least.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Yoshi-P says the dungeon content was designed without the healer contributing to DPS. There is no other way of interpreting that.

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For about the 10th time, he was discussing raids. Dungeons don't have strict DPS requirements; about the closest you get is something like the pre-Ferdiad chamber in Amdapor HM, and if you fail it, you get a free pass.

For the correct "interpretation", refer to my previous posts on this subject and contrast them to what you're claiming he's saying. It's very simple, not particularly biased, and I'm not explaining it all over again. What you have been doing is reading so much more into his comments than what was written that it's become completely ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If players are going to continue to take up healer slots on content only to DPS...

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I still feel like you are basically fabricating (or at least greatly exaggerating) this argument to serve as your personal platform.

It's generally accepted that you meet many awful players in CT/ST/WoD from all roles. You really need to branch out from this content, because it's skewing your perception of the entire game. Expecting to meet skilled, courteous players in Crystal Tower raids is like expecting to meet the love of your life at 2AM last call in a dive bar; it could happen, but it's pretty damned unlikely.

I think what you're asking for is stricter level caps. When a dungeon first comes out or you play it with the minimal item level for it, you can't just burn through it. It requires a lot more time and skill. The thing is, in time, everyone is over geared and we're just running the dungeon to get tombs. We're not really looking for a challenge at the point, we just want to efficiently collect tokens to make our character better. I am in favor of a "Savage" version of a dungeon or just a dungeon that's much harder than the normal ones that you can't burn through, but gives comparable tokens for finishing it. I'd rather do a hard dungeon once than an easier one twice.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

I'm pointing out that the reason people are complaining about housing is for entirely selfish reasons, and not for any perceived broken way of handling how they were sold to players or FC's. RMT's have more money available then players, the would with absolute certainty make sure that any mechanism to increase housing would again be made scarce. This is only resolved by getting rid ofthe demand for housing entirely, which means getting rid of the ability to have a community-oriented house in favor of instances that nobody but you can use. We already saw this in Version 1.0's Market board/Retainer system. It was garbage. If you didn't set your retainer up in the first 10 minutes the servers went live, you were never getting a spot. This is also true in other games that have limited space. Hackers and bots get everything first. The only solution is to get rid of housing altogether. I'm not going to campaign for that. Join a FC if you need a house badly enough, that's the entire point of them. Not for players to create thousands of tiny FC's, but for there to be only a handful of large FC's.

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Wow what bad understanding of how things work! For one, Bots would monopolize market board space because they had a reason to. Market Boards were how you sold things. It's vital for how RMT works to be able to sell things to other players, otherwise they have no hook into the economy. While it's true that the RMT networks have massive amounts of money available, they want as much of that liquid as they can. This is why they do things like sell shards and materia, because that requires little investment and is always moving. They'd never buy up a house to sell it later, that's too much of an investment for a non-guaranteed payoff, which is the last thing you want if you're selling in-game money. On top of that, selling that plot requires a lot of interactions, which takes labor because it can't be automated. You could offer it on their website, but that also leaves them open to someone noticing it and reporting it, potentially compromising the whole network because the owner of the plot can't be all that disposable.

Moreover, you don't seem to get that restricting housing access to large FCs makes housing a useless system for the game as a whole. Let's just assume that everyone joins a big FC in order to take part in housing. Well, now furnishings and garden items have little to no market value, because people who want them are in a position to get them, by being in a large and diverse group. Who's gonna buy a clock for their house when they're in an FC with around 200 people, some of whom are sure to be able to make it? As it is now, you only sell furniture after someone's sold a house to someone else, so checking the party finder is the only way to know if someone's gonna buy your stuff. As it stands, housing is just a toy for the very rich that adds little to the average person's enjoyment. Apparently you think that's fine, though, and you call people who want houses selfish.

Holy shit dude! You're like a huge bundle of bad opinions! Not only do you trundle into every thread to complain about cleric stance, but right beneath the surface are just awful ideas about other player's enjoyment of the game. I don't think that's a coincidence, though. They're the same thing: People should do things the way I think they should, and those who don't are selfish and bad people.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

Wow what bad understanding of how things work! For one...

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I stopped reading there. As I said the last 3 times someone brought it up. Not this thread. The design of the game is to have large FC's, not 10,000 FC's (50% of them) with only 1-3 people in it.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

For about the 10th time...

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You and I are not going to see eye to eye on this, and nitpicking "raids" or "dungeons" is just refusing to acknowledge that Yoshi-P said anything. If anything the design of non-raid dungeons is even more casual and requires no DPS from any healers at any point. Your behavior in this thread is been bordering on harassment, so stop now.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

It's generally accepted that you meet many awful players in CT/ST/WoD from all roles.

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You don't you see the problem with that statement? People who take up "low queue" slots without wanting to do the job seems like a running theme every Tuesday.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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well actually last time yoshi p said anything about fc's he said he won't make content small fc's (4-8 people) can't do.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Well alliance is split up later, so this allows each group to have 2 tanks and 2 healers when doing Atomos event.

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And pretty much only needed for one fight. Everything else can be done with max 2 tanks. aka behemoth and the giant. The other tanks are just pointlessly stood clicking towers. Thus the reduction of needed tanks in CT and WoD as it is easier to design content for 3 tanks rather than 6, and TBH 3 tanks is overneeded for CT and WoD as well.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

And pretty much only needed for one fight. Everything else can be done with max 2 tanks. aka behemoth and the giant. The other tanks are just pointlessly stood clicking towers. Thus the reduction of needed tanks in CT and WoD as it is easier to design content for 3 tanks rather than 6, and TBH 3 tanks is overneeded for CT and WoD as well.

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IMO Labyrinth is designed backwards. The first battle splits everyone up... from a central location. It should have started from 3 locations.

It would have made more logical design sense to split the raid into parties of 4 and start them in different locations (think FF6's final dungeon.) Then after they defeat the boss of that area it unlocks the checkpoints for the other parties, the first two parties to hit the checkpoint become Alliance A, the next two become Alliance B, and the last two become Alliance C, and the next/final boss requires A B and C to do different mechanics (eg like with WoD's Cerberus.) That ensures that the "best" alliance is formed to take on the hard job.

A meaner setup would actually take that idea and do a bit of a "weakest link" elimination so that it starts with 24-60 solo players, and ends with the "best" 24 before the final boss. That would essentially allow "everyone on the server" to queue for it, regardless of their job (eg it could be 6 tanks, 6 healers, and how many DPS are sitting in queue,) and players that are truely bad at their job just get ejected before it forms an alliance with the remaining 24. The only reason that this doesn't make "good" sense is because you would get players who never get past the elimination round the majority of the time, and the only way they get to finish is by having people volunteer to drop out. It would also likely take too long as players would have to vote off the weakest players, and those that know they are bad will just wait for the timeouts to spite everyone.