Entitled DPS, please stop being entitled

If the DPS decides to go back and pull additional mobs after the tank/heals/other dps decided to leave them be, let him try and kill them by themselves. See if they learn anything from the experience.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

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And yet, if the tank dies, everybody dies. If the DPS dies, you raise them and it's all good. It's not about if it's hard or not, it's about the resposability you have. Also, as a tank, you're the most exposed to people. Since you pretty much gotta run ahead of the group, you'll find a lot of demanding people telling you what to do and judging you: If you pull 2 monsters only, if you pull all of them, it's really noticeable if you don't use cds, the healer will remember that. If you're too slow, if you're too fast. If you grab a group of monsters that one of the DPS didn't like (He'll probably let you know). Also, for example, there's only 3 tanks spot in ST and WoD. So people will wait for YOU. You're 1 out of 3 tanks out of 22 guys trapped in a raid looking at YOU. Waiting for YOU to move. Try to please them all. As a DPS, you'll be mostly un-noticeable.

PD: I play tank (paladin and warrior), healer (scholar) and DPS (dragoon and blackmage).

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Originally Posted by kehn

what y'all need to do is stop telling people what to do in parties. I don't let anybody tell me how to dps, and don't let anybody tell me how to tank. if you have a suggestion, have it come with a "could you............... please" and i will consider it.

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You would be surprised how people incredibly manage it to turn every kind suggestion into a direct attack to their egos. It's really hard to give a suggestion in this game for some reason. No matter how kind you are, if you use a smiley at the end of the sentence. Whatever you do, there will be people who will turn back, stare at you and send you to hell. Either that or just ignore you and still do their own.

what y'all need to do is stop telling people what to do in parties. I don't let anybody tell me how to dps, and don't let anybody tell me how to tank. if you have a suggestion, have it come with a "could you............... please" and i will consider it.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

MUDs (nearly 20 years).

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Majormud <3

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

And yet, if the tank dies, everybody dies.

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Depends on the fight. As a WHM I've actually "tanked" (aka kited) bosses after rs tank has left during the fight. It can be done. It's just slow and tedious.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

I've been playing MMOs since they were text-based and called MUDs (nearly 20 years). I've played every role. And I feel confident in saying that the tank is EXPECTED to lead the group. Especially a random group.

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Hah! More old people! I started off in the MMO world on JediMUD in 1995. :3

Doesn't seem like OP did anything wrong to me. Read the whole OP. DPS made a demand to pull every mob, tank asked dps to aoe the big pull in the blue stuff, dps refused, said some not-nice things and left with his healer friend. Of course some how some way it's all the tank's fault in the thread responses lol.

I usually visit the dps section, but I'm going start reading General Discussion more often. It's nice entertainment until Heavensward ;)

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

The tank is not the slave of the group? But the way you phrase it, it seems to me that you are suggesting that the group is the slave of the tank... Why should three people have to follow what one person wants? Pretty sure the one person should follow the three.

EDIT: That being said I fully understand that groups need a leader, but just because you are the tank does not make you the default leader. If you are in a 4 man party and the other 3 people don't want you to be leader, then you are not the leader even if you are the tank.

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Then one of those other 3 people should queue as a tank and set the pace themselves.

Getting aggro, use CD for hard hitting DMG and get all the glory = TANK
Long queue, replaceable role, easy for being kicked out if low DPS, less people see = DPS
As a holy savior, easy to get blame on and ignored by tank esp when they trying to cast some buff before pull = Healer

All hail to TANK \(^_^)/

Somehow I'm feel like this forum is same as Facebook, people whine their problem and ask for attention.

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

Depends on the fight. As a WHM I've actually "tanked" (aka kited) bosses after rs tank has left during the fight. It can be done. It's just slow and tedious.

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Mostly in faceroll dungeons, overgearing it like a champ (Amdapor Keep with 4 DPS, I did that). But in your case, it also depends on the healer. In a general sense, leaving the few exceptions aside, the tank is the person who must stay alive if you want to everybody do their job instead of kitting, holding back, running away, ignoring rotations, dying, etc. In raid content it's impossible. But this conversation is taking the wrong path. I find the debate in general a nice mental exercise and it helps me to perceive how the community sees the other player's attitudes/roles.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Depending on the healer... not really. Outside of the higher levels of content (EX Primals+ basically) a good healer can make any decently DPS a tank.

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I do think the healer role is another role that could be a nice leader. As of the rest of the things you've said, read above.

EDIT: I just noticed, unless that's an alt, you don't play neither warrior or paladin. Or WHM.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

And yet, if the tank dies, everybody dies.

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Depending on the healer... not really. Outside of the higher levels of content (EX Primals+ basically) a good healer can make any decently geared DPS a tank.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Depending on the healer... not really. Outside of the higher levels of content (EX Primals+ basically) a good healer can make any decently geared DPS a tank.

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I'd pay to see a Dragoon tank the first pull of Halatali HM. You know, the pull that's basically everything from the start of the dungeon up to the first boss. I bet he wouldn't even make it halfway before either 1) he died, or 2) the healer ended up tanking instead. DPS don't have the tools to hold aggro on even one mob, much less the big packs most people like to see. Honestly, this thread ceased being even remotely constructive a long time ago. Now it's just a few DPS calling tanks prissy and a few tanks calling DPS disposable and most of the healers facepalming with the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I'd pay to see a Dragoon tank the first pull of Halatali HM. You know, the pull that's basically everything from the start of the dungeon up to the first boss.

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I didn't realize every single one of those mobs had to be pulled at the same time.

Yes, tanks are good at tanking. Having a tank as the tank will make running a dungeon easier and faster.

But if you have some whiny, entitled turd demanding everyone bow to their greatness? Just have your mdps or bard pull each group one at a time and go on your merry way.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

But if you have some whiny, entitled turd demanding everyone bow to their greatness? Just have your mdps or bard pull each group one at a time and go on your merry way.

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If you think the standar attitude of the tank is the one I quoted, become a tank and be the exception, then. I'm not even kidding. Everybody here complaining about other people's attitude should make the difference. I do think the thing you just mentioned applies to either tanks, healers or DPS. It's not tank exclusive, and even if it's based on your experience, since that's a limited source of information.

I've played all the party roles in this game and frankly the best groups are the ones who take the time to communicate.

I find that so much assumption happens that when someone breaks a persons conceived mold on what that class should be doing it rarely ends with the 2 sides walking away happy.




The OP's problem could have been resolved through a reply to the original demand rather then pulling the first room like a "rebel".

Yes the DPS was rude to be sure but like the saying goes; 2 wrongs don't make a right. As such she then experienced the expected spiral of escalation from the original easily resolvable issue.



This thread is good in that it serves as an object lesson in how things can escalate so high that you have one party breakdown to the point where they decide to post a huge rant on the main forums.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

I didn't realize every single one of those mobs had to be pulled at the same time.

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Me either, but that's what people seem to expect. I don't mind doing that pull at all, but some may not want to.

If a tank were to do that same pull one pack at a time, a lot of people would throw a fit.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

But if you have some whiny, entitled turd demanding everyone bow to their greatness? Just have your mdps or bard pull each group one at a time and go on your merry way.

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Funny thing, I've honestly run into far more asinine DPS than I have tanks and healers. Maybe it's because of the perceived lack of responsibility in the role. Before anyone gets their panties all in a twist, note that I said perceived lack of responsibility. Those of us that do the raid thing know that DPS isn't necessarily a lazy role, but your average joe in DF thinks all he has to do is flail his weapon randomly at mobs and make them die. Half of them don't even step out of AoE's.

What do you do if your healer holds the group hostage to his whims even if the other three players are in agreement? You could pull and have each of the three remaining members tank a mob, I guess? What if there's a room with more than three mobs? What if there's a boss? Let's face it, if any one member of the group is afk at the beginning of the dungeon pouting because they didn't get their way, progress is greatly impeded no matter what their role may be.

If the tank you get is that bad just kick them. Most of us don't care anyway. We have instant queues. The same goes for healers. If you can't get along with them, just kick them. Kick a DPS on the other hand, and depending on the instance you're in you cost them anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour of their time. Possibly even more during off-peak hours or on less populated data centers. I honestly think that part of the "tanks are divas" stereotype comes from DPS players that envy their queue times. Of all the times I've queued as DPS or healer in dungeons (or partied with them, in the case of games with no Duty Finder queue), I have only run into a handful of tanks that fit the "diva" stereotype.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

Depending on the healer... not really. Outside of the higher levels of content (EX Primals+ basically) a good healer can make any decently geared DPS a tank.

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Yep. I have a pretty good-sized list of things I've tanked as a DRG because my FC likes to do fun runs. So far I've successfully tanked Tam-Tara NM, Haukke NM, Brayflox NM, story Ifrit, story Titan, Ifrit HM and Titan HM. The only one that was even a slight challenge was Brayflox, because Aiatar hits like a truck. Once we got the hang of it, though, my second run tanking it was much smoother.

Heck, we once did a 1 tank 3 DPS Sastasha run with someone cross-classing Cure. As long as the DPS are geared, it's not difficult.

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Originally Posted by Lexarious

It's not hard

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I never said tanking was hard, but its the job most don't want to do because it's not as fun as DDing.

I agree with the TC. I main healer and the tank sets the pace. Also, being polite is a plus

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

If the tank you get is that bad just kick them. Most of us don't care anyway. We have instant queues. The same goes for healers. If you can't get along with them, just kick them. Kick a DPS on the other hand, and depending on the instance you're in you cost them anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour of their time. Possibly even more during off-peak hours or on less populated data centers. I honestly think that part of the "tanks are divas" stereotype comes from DPS players that envy their queue times. Of all the times I've queued as DPS or healer in dungeons (or partied with them, in the case of games with no Duty Finder queue), I have only run into a handful of tanks that fit the "diva" stereotype.

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One of the most fun runs I ever had was with a prissy primadonna tank. He got into an inane rant after some other player made some innocuous comment that managed to offend him. He refused to tank, so I decided to tank. At first he afked and just lobbed insults. Then he started demanding to be kicked. Then he logged off for a couple minutes, logged back in, and all but screamed at us to kick him in caps. About ten minutes before we completed our 3-man clear of Haukke, he finally left on his own.

It was pretty great, everyone had fun, and I highly recommend the method to anyone looking for a laugh in DF.

But your post does highlight the importance of penalties for being kicked, so good on you! I'm thinking, sixty minute penalty? Sounds like a fair result for managing to piss off a whole party.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

One of the most fun runs I ever had was with a prissy primadonna tank. He got into an inane rant after some other player made some innocuous comment that managed to offend him. He refused to tank, so I decided to tank. At first he afked and just lobbed insults. Then he started demanding to be kicked. Then he logged off for a couple minutes, logged back in, and all but screamed at us to kick him in caps. About ten minutes before we completed our 3-man clear of Haukke, he finally left on his own.

It was pretty great, everyone had fun, and I highly recommend the method to anyone looking for a laugh in DF.

But your post does highlight the importance of penalties for being kicked, so good on you! I'm thinking, sixty minute penalty? Sounds like a fair result for managing to piss off a whole party.

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haha surprised he stayed that long..had a tank screaming to be kicked cause pulled more mobs then the healer could handle.. hurls non stop abuse when no1 kicked him then spammed non stop kick me for about 10mins.. i simply replied if wanna be kicked why dont u leave?? o thats right u dont want the penalty then stop acting like a drama queen n finish the run.. he left instantly after that

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Originally Posted by PULSeTHIRTeeN

I never said tanking was hard, but its the job most don't want to do because it's not as fun as DDing.

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Some people find it fun, some don't. Obviously more find dps fun but well I don't see why that matters. Don't find it fun? Don't play it. It's kind of dumb to play something you don't like and then act entitled about it. I prefer dpsing but I still act the same when I play a tank. With that said..far as the op goes, the group should decide on if you're skipping or not. I just get tired of how whiny tanks can be(really its everyone but I find more issues with tanks).

Dang, you're tanking the entire forum right now judging by that OP's edits.

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Originally Posted by Nephera

Dang, you're tanking the entire forum right now judging by that OP's edits.

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I lol'd. It's sadly true though :(

But I've got at least 44 healers at this point, so it's all good!

And to address the last few posts:

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

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Guessing you didn't reach much of my post.

First off: He had a healer with him, he had fast queues. Secondly, I chose not to have a positive reaction towards a blatant, rude demand and give someone being mean to me what they wanted, how is that unreasonable? I am NOT going to sit there and take abuse without doing anything. Thirdly, the optional trash in DD is actually pretty out of the way in the first part. You have to stand on pads to open the doors. In the second part, some of the trash patrols a large area and is again, out of the way. Fourthly, I offered a compromise, he intentionally and rudely shot it down and made more demands, as well as threats.

It's sad I have to defend myself in this way from you, and sad that you're getting likes. If only people would read a little more.

Also, please refer to my above mentioning of implied rights. You won't find anything written for implied rights.

If he had been the tank, he'd have more implied, functional rights given by his role in the tie, and I would have acknowledged that, even as the dps. I am never going to order a tank to kill extra mobs as a dps, I don't care who they are. The rights are inherent of the role, not the player, and the role is built to be the best at pulling and built to be the first to go, so in a tie, it makes sense the role best suited to pulling and going ahead gets to, you know, do the pulling.

If you've got two parties deadlocked, and everyone is considered equal, the tank stands out as the one most capable of doing the job of pulling, and therefore functioning as the tiebreaker. It would be great to have another player whose personal rights would trump the role's implied rights, but in 4 mans that's not going to happen, so you go with the next best thing.

I'll post evidence of this in work again: DPS who pull without tank help or heals will die fast. Healers will die fast without tank help. Tanks would die last without heals. Why? Because pulling is part of their intended job, and as such, more in their functional, implied rights. Again, do these general role rights trump personal rights?

I say no, personally. Hence why I said in another post that if I am outnumbered, I will do a clear if the majority wants it, because I see personal rights as superior to a role's inherent, implied rights.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

You could have taken the high road here, but instead this was your reaction:



Congrats on being a jerk. Perhaps the person doesn't play on a PC and has a difficult time typing out flowery requests to the tank? Why not try giving people the benefit of the doubt before turning into the bad rebel that you are?

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I'm guessing you didn't read that I said he said "no skipping anything" immediately when the barrier at the beginning went down.

He sure had that typed fast for someone you're assuming to be without a keyboard O.o. He literally had it typed as I was coming out of the skipped cutscene blackscreen. And is it really THAT bad adding "please" to the sentence? I used to suffer typing on PS3, he had plenty of time to type it out with please added, trust me. Especially while the healer was buffing everyone.

It's trendy to blame me for having a bad reaction to immediate demands and hostility though, and to make judgements of my character and assumptions about me, that much is clear.

And as I quoted myself above, I offered him a compromise and was going to go back for his mobs if he treated me nicely. He shot it down and insulted me, and made more demands and threats.

What was I supposed to do, give him what he wanted and just stay quiet? Give up the rights of myself and my friend to suit theirs, when tanks have the inherent, implied rights of pulling, even when he refuses to compromise and increase the speed of killing the extra mobs?

I'm sorry, but if defending myself from abuse and having a bad reaction to abuse makes me a jerk, I'll gladly embrace my jerkness. If choosing to be the one to take charge in a tie as the most suited role to take charge for mob pulling makes me a jerk, I'll embrace it. I took the high road when there was a high road that wasn't blocked off. After that, I took the higher road still.

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Originally Posted by Mattiej

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Please re-read. I think you missed many points in my posts. I did not demand, or even ask that the healer dps. I only asked the BRD to AoE, that was our compromise. Big pulls in DD can be done quite safely as well, the crystal buffs make tanks brick walls. And I didn't do massive pulls anyways, I pulled 9 or so mobs on the first pull. When you've got 3k+ health and each mob is hitting you for maybe 50, maybe a little more or less, 9 mobs really aren't doing any more damage than 3 mobs would be without the buff. In fact, since at least one buff area has mobs in it, you are actually required to do at least one larger pull. That or stand outside the buff area and risk triggering and getting blasted by the Eye's AoE.

They were offensive in numerous ways that I have posted throughout the thread. I did not hold them hostage anymore than they held my friend and me hostage, and we even offered the dps a compromise that he promptly shot down rudely. I also would have gladly done a full run for him if he would have asked nicely. My friend and I got no compromise from them, only "we're doing it our way, even if we have to pull and let you die". I.e, we're going to force you to do what we want via griefing you. And like I said, he had his very first sentence (no skipping anything) typed immediately after the cut scene skip screen was over for me. He either had a keyboard, or he had it pre-typed. Either way, there was no reason he couldn't have taken a few seconds to add please in at the very least.

If I am coming off as "entitled" from my responses to people as you say, it's probably because so many people are missing things that I've said, and some are manipulating the meanings of my words to suit their ends. I realize I tend to make very long posts, but it's not my fault if people choose to not read them and then post without knowing things. Repeating things over and over because people don't read or at least don't understand what they read gets very tiresome.

I don't mind repeating myself given how long my posts can be really though, even if it does get old. I know if I was someone else, I'd probably read my posts but be like ugh, so long. but this blasted 20 post limit really makes repeating myself a pain -.-

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

By letting DPS die because they pulled extra mobs, you (as a tank) aren't doing your job.

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I help with accidental pulls. If a DPS is being continuously and intentionally disruptive by pulling, I do not help them though.

It is not a DPS's job to pull. They are not built for that as part of their intended role. That behavior is widely frowned on by the community as well. Why should they be excused for doing that, and the tank be expected to put up with that? The tank would not even be the aggressor in that situation.

More blaming the victims here.

A tank's job description, written or otherwise, does not entail taking abuse from griefers, which is essentially what that can become.

Please do not encourage DPS to have the mindset that "it's the tank's fault if they don't save me from these mobs I pulled on purpose despite it not being my job to." Tank abuse is not cool.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Technically tank's only job is to keep the bad guys off of everyone else. Tank pulling them just makes it easier to start doing that job. There is no job in this game that is "built to do pulls".



Just to play devil's advocate, you could argue that tanks are the worst at pulling; Shield Lob and Tomahawk only have 15yd range compared to 25yd of every dps skill and using Provoke to pull is just stupid. Well, I guess Monks would be worse.

In reality, though, there is no situation where you just can't run in and hug the mobs, so it doesn't really matter.

This thread certainly was an entertaining read.

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Guess that explains why DPS pulls always go so smoothly, huh? DPS were designed to do it, that's why they end up on the floor when they do it or cause major problems.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

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Thanks! I love gold stars. The dps should get one too, because it's totally a dps's job to do pulls if they don't like how a tank does them, right?

But yes, if they want to do pulls, they should tank. Being shocked when a tank pulls as they want in the event of a tie is silly. According to some people (you included?), I should have left it up to the dps to pull since it was a tie. It's their job to pull after all, right?

Yet another sensational post, sure to gather the likes of the easily entertained and sure to ignore any relevant points. Kudos to you, sir.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I can't believe you joined a low level dungeon, and expected people not to say that.

Do you know how long the queues can be for those lower level dungeons as a dps? And no, I don't play dps that often. I main healer. But when I queue as a tank, even if I need to get out of there quickly, I am still kind enough to pull everything because it's not all about me.

There are FOUR players in your party, not two and then two more. It's funny you speak of how dps are entitled, yet here you are a person probably level synced...making the people trying to level get out the dungeon quicker instead of getting the experience they joined for in the first place.

Also, this is not your blog. Tumblr is that way >>>>>

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Please, for the love of the gods, READ.

The DPS had a healer with him. That means fast queues. So your first point is irrelevant and spawned out of ignorance of what occurred.

I've said time and time again, if people ASK, not DEMAND that I do clears, I do clears.

I offered him a reasonable compromise even though he made demands, if he did his part I'd do a clear for him.

He shot that down and insulted me. They offered no compromise in return.

There was NO MAJORITY. There were 2 people with opposing wishes vs 2 people, both sides refusing to budge after our compromise was refused. Our side because we were being treated like crap and refused to take it and because they refused our reasonable compromise, theirs because they made it clear it was either their way or no way. I attempted to make the tiebreaking call and do my job of pulling and going first, because I am best suited to do so. They attempted to make their own call by griefing me, so the dungeon stopped progressing. Not to mention, as I said, he had a healer.

A quick run followed by another quick queue for him would not have been detrimental to his leveling. In fact, when you have the queue of a healer or tank, especially when there is no aoeing, it's faster for experience gain to not do full clears and just queue again after a run. Refusing to AoE yet wanting all the trash killed would have been detrimental to completing the dungeon in a timely manner, however.

How on earth does that make me entitled?

Does the only way I can be not considered entitled by you people mean giving up my rights and giving in to his demands and abuse? Jeez.

And Last I checked, the forums are for discussion. This thread has discussion going on. Way to try to make me look like an idiot though by posting something intended only to do that without adding anything meaningful or even relevant to the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

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The purpose of this thread was for DPS due to this encounter being one with a DPS, I am aware that there are problematic people of each role.

However, please note. I did not make demands. I did not even have time to say anything before the DPS made his demand. He immediately made it clear that he would not be allowing me to make my case, immediately made it clear that he would not hear it.

I offered a compromise, he said no in a rude manner and proceeded to threaten me.

I'll say it again. If people ask me nicely, I will do clears. If I am outnumbered, I will do clears. I offered a small compromise, asked that he only press his one aoe button, that would have gotten him his clear. He refused.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be his slave AND give away my and my friends' rights to a faster dungeon completion even though there was a tie between interests (our personal rights are equal to theirs after all), AND pull every trash mob and watch him single target everything, even large groups. We were willing to take the time to clear if he was willing to press one button. He was not, and expected us to still cater to him and lengthen the dungeon time extremely as a result, therefore denying us any compromise at all.

I simply went on to do my job, they went on to grief me to attempt to coerce me to do it their way.

They refused to accept anything other than 100% their way.

And as I've said, I play all three roles. DPS, tank, and healer. I actually main a dps class. I still give tanks the most weight in their choice during a tie without compromise being accepted, even if I'm a dps. I know what it's like to be on that side, even though in this case he had a healer queuing runs with him, so he did not have typical dps queues.

If he had asked me in a way that refers to be as a human being rather than demand something of me like I'm his slave, things would have been much different. If he had accepted the small compromise we offered, things would have been much different. Instead, we were insulted, griefed, and told a resounding NO to everything we said. It should be small wonder that things broke down.

Apparently though (not referring to you specifically, your post was actually one of the more calm ones on this thread), some people think I'm at fault for everything even though we were the only ones mature enough to offer compromise and address the others has humans rather than as objects and means to an end. Is it really that unreasonable that after this, and considering there was already a tie, that we refused to give in to them?

How many people here would be more convinced to give $10 to a homeless person who asks for it nicely vs one who walks up and demands it, yet you still offer them $5 because you're agreeable, and they refuse to hear it, demanding $10 because they won't accept less?

I know I'd be appalled at the lack of gratitude and lack of being treated like a human being at the very least, and after enough of the behavior, would seriously contemplate not giving them anything.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

One of the most fun runs I ever had was with a prissy primadonna tank. He got into an inane rant after some other player made some innocuous comment that managed to offend him. He refused to tank, so I decided to tank. At first he afked and just lobbed insults. Then he started demanding to be kicked. Then he logged off for a couple minutes, logged back in, and all but screamed at us to kick him in caps. About ten minutes before we completed our 3-man clear of Haukke, he finally left on his own.

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It's definitely fun to purposely not kick someone that's demanding to be kicked over something stupid.

The way I see it, if you want out that bad just eat the half hour.

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Originally Posted by Intaki

But your post does highlight the importance of penalties for being kicked, so good on you! I'm thinking, sixty minute penalty? Sounds like a fair result for managing to piss off a whole party.

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Eh. As much as I'd like to see that, it's way too easily abused. Someone decides to kick you to get their friend into the party, 60 minute penalty. Someone wants to have exclusive rolls on loot for their class in WoD, 60 minute penalty. Someone decides to kick you so they can leave without penalty, 60 minute penalty. Enough people get kicked for reasons other than pissing off the party that it just isn't feasible to inflict a a penalty for it.

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Originally Posted by Adire

I'm guessing you didn't read that I said he said "no skipping anything" immediately when the barrier at the beginning went down.

He sure had that typed fast for someone you're assuming to be without a keyboard O.o. He literally had it typed as I was coming out of the skipped cutscene blackscreen. And is it really THAT bad adding "please" to the sentence? I used to suffer typing on PS3, he had plenty of time to type it out with please added, trust me. Especially while the healer was buffing everyone.

It's trendy to blame me for having a bad reaction to immediate demands and hostility though, and to make judgements of my character and assumptions about me, that much is clear.

And as I quoted myself above, I offered him a compromise and was going to go back for his mobs if he treated me nicely. He shot it down and insulted me, and made more demands and threats.

What was I supposed to do, give him what he wanted and just stay quiet? Give up the rights of myself and my friend to suit theirs, when tanks have the inherent, implied rights of pulling, even when he refuses to compromise and increase the speed of killing the extra mobs?

I'm sorry, but if defending myself from abuse and having a bad reaction to abuse makes me a jerk, I'll gladly embrace my jerkness. If choosing to be the one to take charge in a tie as the most suited role to take charge for mob pulling makes me a jerk, I'll embrace it. I took the high road when there was a high road that wasn't blocked off. After that, I took the higher road still.

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I don't get why I'm getting quoted/responded to again, but I am now starting to believe that you're embellsing a few bits of the story. From your original OP:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

So, I just queued as PLD for DD to help a friend get it done for GC quests.

Immediately upon the dungeon starting, I get this from a dps:

"no skipping anything"

Being the rebel I am, and the fact that my friend just needed the dungeon done asap (and I'm the tank, so obviously the game is designed for me to lead the pace of the dungeon), and the fact that he demanded I bow to his whims rather than ask me to, I pulled the first room into the crystal buff. The WHM, who is the other dps' friend, is not holying. The other dps, who is a BRD, is not aoeing.

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So as soon as the dungeon started, you get the request/demand, and you right away decide to be a "rebel" and make a gigantic pull to screw with them. There were no attacks, threats or abuse before this point, it's no wonder he may have had choice words to say to you (if in fact he did). You guys deserved each other it seems.

At this point for me, pics or it didn't happen :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

snip

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I'm not responding to you again. I moved the quotes from my OP to this page to reduce the clutter in my OP, if you had taken a moment to read that or at least notice that they were gone from my OP, you would have seen that. But alas, people post as if they've read even when they haven't, and I find myself repeating myself yet again to the willfully ignorant.

Anyways, before I even had time to say anything at all, I was ordered by him to not skip anything. Not asked, ordered. This is abusive and insulting, as I am not his slave to order around. I did not do a "gigantic pull", I pulled as I always do in DD. I pulled the first set of 3 mobs into the crystal buff with the other 3 mobs, then he ran off and pulled a few other mobs and brought them to me. I then asked him to AoE, he refused in a rude manner and basically told us to shut up and do what he wanted.

If you've done DD, you should know that the crystal buff makes even this many mobs hit like babies. There were 9 or so mobs total in the buff, that is not a lot of damage at all. Go try it if you don't believe me! Even pulling the entire first half of the dungeon into the crystal buffs is manageable damage with decent gear.


And as much as I'd like to give you pictures, I have logged out since then. If you know of a way to get chat logs, please inform me. I have nothing to hide. You don't have to believe me, but assuming I'm lying without any reason to assume that is not any better. If you find any inconsistencies in my story, please do post about it. The above perceived inconsistency stemmed from you not reading and missing things I said, and I have addressed this false inconsistency once again above. That is your problem, not mine. I've repeated everything I said there multiple times throughout the thread.

Given how quick you are to judge my character without even knowing me and how quick you are to jump on everything I say, assuming the worst each time, and responding to general statements I make by taking jabs at my person, I'm starting to think nothing will please you though. If I had pics, at this point I'd have suspicions that you'd accuse me of doctoring them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

Thanks! I love gold stars. The dps should get one too, because it's totally a dps's job to do pulls if they don't like how a tank does them, right?

But yes, if they want to do pulls, they should tank. Being shocked when a tank pulls as they want in the event of a tie is silly. According to some people (you included?), I should have left it up to the dps to pull since it was a tie. It's their job to pull after all, right?

Yet another sensational post, sure to gather the likes of the easily entertained and sure to ignore any relevant points. Kudos to you, sir.

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Sure the DPS was no better than you assuming he was allowed to dictate the run from the getgo. He however isn't on the forums telling us that he believes this exact thing that your spouting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

(and I'm the tank, so obviously the game is designed for me to lead the pace of the dungeon)

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I would be calling him out as well, this is a common problem with every player in the game not just tanks, healers, DPS it's a general player thing they assume that the duty finder is going to have a party full of people tailor made to do exactly what they want to do. Like others have said in this post if you want to dictate how the run will go down don't duty finder...Preform or use the party finder where you can say "Speed runz only This tank calls the shots!"

otherwise you saying you dictate the speed of the run is like saying a Tank can dictate that it's cool to ditch a Darkhold run after the first room because he and his mate were there for EXP only and leave the other members in the dust because hell he is the tank and as you said.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

I'm the tank, so obviously the game is designed for me to lead the pace

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Using the same logic just up and leaving the run is a tanks choice and everyone should just say "Well that's ok we better vote kick you so you don't have to eat the penalty, SE needs to change it so tanks can freely leave whenever they want because it's up to them to be the leader anyways"

But you know just being a sensationalist.
http://media.giphy.com/media/EQHst5tS6OuUE/giphy.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Sure the DPS was no better than you assuming he was allowed to dictate the run from the getgo. He however isn't on the forums telling us that he believes this exact thing that your spouting.

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The DPS was not intended by SE to do pulls or accepted by most of the community to do it, and was the one who resorted to griefing to get his way and denied compromise, so he has no justifiable reason to complain.

It's really that simple.

Yep, you are being a sensationalist. Because you're ignoring the facts. There was a tie. I was the tank. It's my job to pull, so I pulled. The dps pulled too, but that's not his job. The community overall frowns on that, so does SE given how obstructive they made doing that to gameplay progression.

You're also STILL acting as if I dicated 3 people. There was a TIE. Ignored this fact, people who don't read much into my post will miss it, see your post, then think I'm a villain.

And you're STILL ignoring where I have said that if tanks are outnumbered, they should do what the group wants or leave. You're STILL ignoring that I said that I do that, and even do clears if I'm just asked nicely. You ignored this fact too, but the folks who don't read my post won't know any better.

Would it make you happier if I start allowing the dps the most say in ties when I'm the tank?

What gives the DPS the right to make the final call on pulls in a tie between player interests? Certainly not their role design....

You keep on being you though, if posting sensationally, quoting and twisting particular things I've said without taking into account the context of my whole post is who you are, and posting funny gifs to distract people from the argument and facts to gain support from people who are uninformed is what you like, you keep doing that. I'm sure you'll immediately get in the good graces of people just for the gif, regardless of post accuracy.

I'll stay away from manipulation, personally. You should do the same.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lexarious

Some people find it fun, some don't. Obviously more find dps fun but well I don't see why that matters. Don't find it fun? Don't play it. It's kind of dumb to play something you don't like and then act entitled about it. I prefer dpsing but I still act the same when I play a tank. With that said..far as the op goes, the group should decide on if you're skipping or not. I just get tired of how whiny tanks can be(really its everyone but I find more issues with tanks).

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I agree that tanks shouldn't act entitled ( just like healers for that matter but we don't talk about them...) but DDs also need to understand the tank leads the charge and unless you're willing to kick him and wait for another, it would be best to comply if he's zero open to suggestions rather than acting like an ass if they get told "no". If you want to run the show, roll a tank, learn the fights, profit???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

There was a tie. I was the tank.

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What's your point?

If there is a "Tie" and both parties can't agree then somebody needs to step up and say this isn't working and just leave. I'm not even talking about your specific dungeon encounter it's the pure fact you keep saying that you have the right to do whatever you want just because your the tank.

You don't, you have as much right to pull as the DPS who was pulling obviously the DPS is going to wind up getting the party killed, or severly slow down the dungeon. That doesn't make you justified in doing the same thing. Either adapt or leave, the DPS and his friend are left to stew in their own ignorance and you are free to go find another group who will hopefully want to speed-burn the dungeon instead of full clearing. Wether you like it or not the duty finder isn't designed for anyone to call the shots regardless of their roll design.

I sorry I'm late for the party Richter....but

http://i.imgur.com/thD5TEe.jpg

Seriously...do people need to jump on the forums and whine and complain about every single time something pinches them on that soft spot in Duty Finder... Crazy serious..just get over it. This is the consequences and mayor con of the Duty Finder. You are always going to get knuckleheads as likewise you will get nice people. At the end you are not going to care a minute for what reasons those other 3/7/23 people are in there for. You are just going to get your thing done and leave.. Period.

I've said a few times already in these forums that Duty Finder is the worst thing I have ever had to deal with this game. But people wanted a new WoW, so you got your WoW..

And no..I did not read the original post.. I didn't have to because it just a copy and paste of all the complain about Duty Finder posts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jynx

snip

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My point is, when the problem at hand is that there is a tie about the issue of mob pulling, the person who does the mob pulling (the tank) should have the most weight in making the final call.

In any profession, the authority on a field is going to have superior weight behind their opinion in that field than other people. Does that mean they have more value than other people as a person overall? No!

The same concept applies here. When pulling mobs is the problem, the tank should get the final say about it in a tie. Does it mean that their rights as a person trump the others? No. But when personal rights are tied, it's best to give the final say so to the authority on the matter, in this case, the person playing the job whose job entails pulling mobs.

A dps trying to make the final call on that in a tie when it is in no way part of their role's intended function is like an amateur photographer being in the room with 2 other photographers and one surgeon who are all given equal role rights in the surgery. Should they all be considered equal in rights as human beings? Yes. Should they all be considered equal in rights for deciding how a surgery should proceed? No.

Would you want the photographers being equal to the surgeon in a surgery? I know I wouldn't. In a tie here, the surgeon should make the final call.

Community approval of tanks pulling vs disapproval of dps pulling exists for a reason you know.

150 more pages and it´ll beat the "healers horror story" thread. With just ONE tank story. We ´re close to a record.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

A dps trying to make the final call on that in a tie when it is in no way part of their role's intended function is like an amateur photographer being in the room with 2 other photographers and one surgeon who are all given equal role rights in the surgery. Should they all be considered equal in rights as human beings? Yes. Should they all be considered equal in rights for deciding how a surgery should proceed? No.

Would you want the photographers being equal to the surgeon in a surgery? I know I wouldn't. In a tie here, the surgeon should make the final call.

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This analogy would make sense if the other 3 people in your party were DoL/DoH jobs, or if any surgical team ever consisted of a surgeon and 3 people taking pictures.

Again you say your vote isn't any more important than anyone else's, but it is the tie breaker. Stop acting entitled, because I'm the entitled one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

My point is, when the problem at hand is that there is a tie about the issue of mob pulling, the person who does the mob pulling (the tank) should have the most weight in making the final call.

In any profession, the authority on a field is going to have superior weight behind their opinion in that field than other people. Does that mean they have more value than other people as a person overall? No!

The same concept applies here. When pulling mobs is the problem, the tank should get the final say about it in a tie. Does it mean that their rights as a person trump the others? No. But when personal rights are tied, it's best to give the final say so to the authority on the matter.

Community approval of tanks pulling vs disapproval of dps pulling exists for a reason you know.

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Well... if this is true, and his friend was the healer, then I'm willing to bet the other dps and the healer were voting for a full clear. Since your vote doesn't count, if you're truly playing the middle man and not wanting to just take the easy way out, then that is your friend's vote against the two others who probably want a full clear. However, given your strong opinion of your superiority in all things tank, I highly doubt you took the middle man approach. First, don't play the "holier than thou" card when you so obviously don't know how to handle a situation like this properly to prevent it from spiraling out of control. Second, don't pretend to be an expert on at a role when your expertise is only limited to one of the two jobs of that role. (Yes, I know how to use the search function on The Lodestone unlike some) Third, the decision in a dungeon to do a full clear or a fast clear should be left up to the players present who are not level 50 yet. A clear bias towards laziness resides with those that have already maxed level, and if they are in a low level dungeon for any reason, it doesn't take priority over someone who is there for leveling. Just because you or your friend don't want to spend an extra 5 minutes in content you're being level synced to doesn't mean that someone else should have to skip content in the dungeon for your impatient benefits. Doing it for relic? Don't care. Doing it for Zodiac drop? Don't care. Doing it because you were an idiot while leveling and you skipped it? Don't care. They are there to level, they are further behind, and they need more help than your impatient entitled butt sitting on your high horse.

Before you get all pissy, yes, I'm a tank, yes I play Paladin and Warrior, along with all the other jobs. And yes, in any lower level content, I always ask the people who aren't at 50 yet if they would like a full clear. Him demanding you do a full clear is just evidence of more lazy and impatient tanks like yourself. Just because he was rude doesn't mean you should be the "rebel" which is just another way of saying you were just as rude. If you don't want to help out someone who is still leveling, then don't go into lower content. But if you do decide to darken the doorways of those dungeons with your stubborn attitude, then don't come here and whine about how you feel someone you deemed below you should bow to you as you condescend him and his healer friend. Perhaps if you were a little more cordial with them from the beginning, they would have listened to you when you asked for AOE. You seem more like Napoleon with a little man complex than really a leader, which is what you seem to think you are.

Being nice and friendly will get you a lot more respect than being brash and stubborn. Like a recent run in AV I had where we had a healer act much like you are when a dps asked for a full clear. I promised the DPS that due to time constraints (Because of all the fighting the DPS and healer were doing and the fact that I had to duo the first boss with just the healer with me because of the fighting) we would finish the dungeon ASAP and then I would go back and slaughter anything we skipped afterwards. Of course, the healer left, but I still made good on my promise and came out of it with respect and commendations from all three people because like a good leader, I tried my best to accommodate everyone. What you did was accommodate just your friend, when it was within your ability to make everyone happy. But because of your stubborn attitude, you don't see that. So, you come here and rage about entitled dps when it's actually you who needs to come down a peg. A little humility will take you much further than your attitude has gotten you so far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

This analogy would make sense if the other 3 people in your party were DoL/DoH jobs, or if any surgical team ever consisted of a surgeon and 3 people taking pictures.

Again you say your vote isn't any more important than anyone else's, but it is the tie breaker. Stop acting entitled, because I'm the entitled one.

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I don't recall saying that any surgical team consisted of that. I was speaking theoretically. I think you missed that point.

I've said it numerous times. If I am the tank, my vote should be the tiebreaker if mob pulling is the problem. If I am not the tank, I still think it should be the tank's call because doing that is their job, doing that is their realm. I can't believe I'm being shamed for essentially not condoning DPS pulling mobs without a majority agreement existing.

Yet here we are, with tanks as the role designated to pull mobs by the community and by SE, not dps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ceodore

snip

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First, As great as it is of someone to pass on using their rights, why on earth should I give up mine when someone is trying to make me their slave immediately? If someone is making demands of me, I am not going to silently bow down to them. If he had asked nicely? I'd gladly give him what he wanted, as I've said oh so many times if you would take a moment to actually read.

Second, I never in this entire thread claimed to be an unnaturally skilled tank. I am skilled, that much I will say, but nowhere have I said that I am superior to most players at tanking. Please do not put words into my mouth. Also, what does the fact that I haven't played WAR much have to do with anything? WAR is a tank, PLD is a tank, I have a good understanding of the role that both fill. I don't have to play WAR to know how to tank.

Third, please read. I offered compromise, they responded with "nope, we're doing it our way 100%", yet I am on a high horse....? I am really getting tired of repeating this. If you aren't willing to be informed about this topic, please do not bother posting without at least admitting that you are uninformed.

Fourth, we asked him to AoE during the first pull's fight. I hadn't gone out of the way to collect mobs because I didn't want to get blasted by the Eye's AoE while fighting the non-optional packs. I wanted to clear them out (especially since no one was AoEing) before gathering the rest, and was taking a moment to figure out how to react to his demands as well. Just because I didn't immediately respond to them with words doesn't mean I was being "stubborn", even though I believe a little stubborness given his disrespect would have been justified. I was doing my job first, and talking second, and was going to go back and get the mobs if he had a change of attitude or agreed to AoE so the dungeon wouldn't take a painfully long time if I went back to get the mobs had he agreed. And I won't lie....I was speechless for a bit after the initial attitude he had.

I was a rebel by pulling the non-optional mobs first when he wanted me to get us all blasted by the eye so that he could get his exp immediately, rather than later. And I was a rebel by asking him to compromise rather than give him 100% what he wanted and sacrifice what we wanted. I was not a rebel by refusing to do anything he said just because. If you had read my post and other posts I've made, you should know this. Context is more important than individual words you know.

And really...there comes a point when a little bit of rebellion is justified. Are you honestly saying it wouldn't irk you if someone demanded that you be their slave? Are you completely missing the parts where I said I would have given him his kills too, if only he had treated me with some respect?

You are being extremely hostile and judgmental of me for someone who is not being referred to by my OP. Perhaps you should take a look at your own attitude. It's sad that I ask for a little respect, and get told to screw off by people like you and the dps in the dungeon. What happened to common decency?

I start a dungeon, get made into a subhuman slave immediately, have a minorly bad reaction in that I remain quiet for a moment after being told I'm a slave, offer a reasonable, small compromise after thinking about what to do after being treated as a subhuman, get told no and that I will do it their way or no way, get insulted, and I am the one who needs to show humility....

Well, like I said. You reap what you sow. This community has lost one good tank who is willing to do clears if treated like a human being.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

I'm not responding to you again. I moved the quotes from my OP to this page to reduce the clutter in my OP, if you had taken a moment to read that or at least notice that they were gone from my OP, you would have seen that. But alas, people post as if they've read even when they haven't, and I find myself repeating myself yet again to the willfully ignorant.

Anyways, before I even had time to say anything at all, I was ordered by him to not skip anything. Not asked, ordered. This is abusive and insulting, as I am not his slave to order around. I did not do a "gigantic pull", I pulled as I always do in DD. I pulled the first set of 3 mobs into the crystal buff with the other 3 mobs, then he ran off and pulled a few other mobs and brought them to me. I then asked him to AoE, he refused in a rude manner and basically told us to shut up and do what he wanted.

If you've done DD, you should know that the crystal buff makes even this many mobs hit like babies. There were 9 or so mobs total in the buff, that is not a lot of damage at all. Go try it if you don't believe me! Even pulling the entire first half of the dungeon into the crystal buffs is manageable damage with decent gear.


And as much as I'd like to give you pictures, I have logged out since then. If you know of a way to get chat logs, please inform me. I have nothing to hide. You don't have to believe me, but assuming I'm lying without any reason to assume that is not any better. If you find any inconsistencies in my story, please do post about it. The above perceived inconsistency stemmed from you not reading and missing things I said, and I have addressed this false inconsistency once again above. That is your problem, not mine. I've repeated everything I said there multiple times throughout the thread.

Given how quick you are to judge my character without even knowing me and how quick you are to jump on everything I say, assuming the worst each time, and responding to general statements I make by taking jabs at my person, I'm starting to think nothing will please you though. If I had pics, at this point I'd have suspicions that you'd accuse me of doctoring them.

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It's amusing how many times you've blamed someone for not listening, but I don't think you even know what you're writing anymore. As of the time of this post, the message I quoted in my previous post did not state anywhere that you were consolidating messages to get them off the main page, merely:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

And to address the last few posts:

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I'm sorry that I'm not going back through your entire post history to double-check for any random edits.

If you don't have a reasonable answer for someone, you claim that they aren't reading or that they are judging your character without even knowing you. Hate to break it to you, you aired your dirty laundry on a public forum, you gave us the right to judge you based on the story and ever-changing details that you've provided.

Feel free to reply if you like, and by all means, blame me again for not reading (lucky time #3!), but I'm done with this thread. It's clear you're not willing to have a reasonable conversation as you brush off any dissenting voices as a personal attack on you. After seeing that play out in this thread several times, I truly am curious what actually happened in that dungeon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

the person who does the mob pulling (the tank) should have the most weight in making the final call.

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Simply not true.

I go into dungeons such as AV or DD, as I am currently while working on zodiac drops for my sch, if the tank says flat out "we are not skipping anything" or any other such nonsense I simply leave. I would be more than willing to stay if someone asks if its ok but if its a statement and not a question you can wait for some other schlup to come in and heal for you. I get quick queues too so its no skin off my back.

I do that with dps too. I have run AV and DD enough and have no want to pull every single mob in the dungeon so you can get an tiny little bit of exp more. Now if you are nice and ask I will be accommodating but I'm not going to be told I'm doing something by someone who thinks they are the boss or everyone else cause they carry a sword or axe (quite a common ailment too unfortunately) especially something I have done enough times already.

SE should never have put dungeons under 50 in some of these quests, I understand the mentality for helping new players complete content and its fine on the atma books since I only have to do them once, but on the zodiac quest it was a poor judgment call.

All in all, it should be a vote. If its 2/2, two ppl should roll for it, don't like the results then you can leave no ones stopping you. If the person who wants more mobs looses and they keep pulling, vote dismiss, easy peasy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

snip

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

My point is, when the problem at hand is that there is a tie about the issue of mob pulling

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It seems you missed this bit of my quote, the bit that adds the entire context to my sentence at that. I was referring to when there is a TIE, the tank has the most weight. Someone has to be the tiebreaker, why not let the person whose job is to pull be the rightful tiebreaker if no one else can come to any agreement? The community already lets tanks pull by default and disapproves of when dps/healers do it, so the insinuation is there that they already have the most weight for determining when/how pulls happen.

I'm glad we agree that being demanded to do something is very wrong though. If he had asked me nicely, I would have done the clear for him. Same for if he would have agreed to AoE.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

snip

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Quote:

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Edit: Please go to this post if you want to see the posts I addressed in my OP originally (moved it there to reduce the clutter in the OP):

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Yep, you aren't reading. That's right there in my OP. I also had on there for a while today that I'd be trimming the OP down when my post limit reset.

Have a nice day, you just proved my point. If you aren't willing to read, then please do not post with the tenacity of someone who has read. Choosing to be ignorant about something and then speaking about it anyways is not a good thing to do.

I am more than willing to have reasonable conversation when people post who bother to read what I say and when they don't jab at me personally, even if they disagree with me. You can find plenty of examples of that in my thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adire

It's sad that I ask for a little respect, and get told to screw off by people like you and the dps in the dungeon. What happened to common decency?

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after being ignored and pleas falling deaf ears, the bitterness will set in you will just stop caring and become a cold tank.