Why I have no interest in Coils more specifically, T9.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

In my opinion, statics are actually far less time-consuming than playing the game through PF/DF. Most statics in this game that I've seen only meet 2-3 nights a week for 2-3 hours each night, during which time you can make relatively consistent forward progress. Progress is much slower and much less consistent in PF/DF and whereas with a static you assemble a group once and meet on a schedule, with PF/DF you have to repeatedly spend time assembling new groups.

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And I agree completely. All the times I've downed any turn of Coil, was in a static. Having a group helps you to build synergy with them and work things out faster. I'm not against it and I'll actually prefer it over PF/DF all the time.

Anyone who says that raid content should only be able to be completed by a few is utterly kidding themselves. Should there be a challenge in raids? Yes. Should you be able to get a clear within the first run? No (Unless you are epic). Should everyone be able to clear it? Yes, ultimately everyone wants to do raids. Some people don't care about the rewards, some do. Some people want the story (because face it, anyway you cut it this is a FINAL FANTASY GAME WHERE STORY MATTERS, and people want that. Locking out a raid to the populace due to making it too much of a memory game, or essentially forcing 3rd party applications (voice chat) is not good development, period. You cannot argue that, anyone who has business/entertainment knowledge would agree, its poor game design to essentially force upon your player to use a 3rd party tool to assist them, and please don't tell me that VC is not required in PUGs, all the clears I got with my character had VC and it made the fight ridiculously easy, because its too much (moves are happening much faster) than what you can type AND react to the moves yourself.


Now things that only a few people should be able to do? Take down big bad NMs to use examples from FFXI: Pandemonium Warden and Absolute Virtue. Those two bosses in FFXI had 0 zero story element and were near to impossible to beat (the first one took 18+ hours to get to low HP and they still couldn't beat it cause people were getting sick and such), Absolute Virtue was released in the 2nd expansion and continued to be near to impossible to beat for the next 5 years or so. Those are things that only a few should be able to beat, however raids...everyone should be able to beat it, and they should be able to do it without the assistance of 3rd party software.

Since T9 is essentially obsolete now (and FCOB will be once Alexander arrives), what would be the harm in making Binding Coil, including the fights against Twintania ands Nael, accessible?

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Since T9 is essentially obsolete now (and FCOB will be once Alexander arrives), what would be the harm in making Binding Coil, including the fights against Twintania ands Nael, accessible?

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Because for some players, including myself, that would be taking the fun away from us. They should, however, do a story mode Coil, for those who wants to experience the story and not worry about learning ten thousand mechanics. Then you leave the original Coil as it is (I mean, keeping nerfs and echo on the early turns, but not nerfing the final fight of each Coil).

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Those are things that only a few should be able to beat, however raids...everyone should be able to beat it, and they should be able to do it without the assistance of 3rd party software.

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No. I disagree. In life, there are winners and there are losers. Not everyone can win. It's either you get good or you just stay where you are. You CAN down t9 without teamspeak and such. Everything you're saying is just an excuse why you can't down the content. You know what I think the real reason why you can't down it? You don't wanna put the time and effort to do it. Your sense of entitlement betrays you my friend. If you really wanna down t9 and beyond you'll set aside some time to practice and learn it. Real life obligations is not an excuse not to down a content because news flash, a lot of us have full time jobs or schools or families and we were able to still down t13. Really. Be honest with us and tell us the real reason why they can't down the content. Why a lot of people still can't down t5. It's not because they are not good players. Its not because of real life obligations. It's because they don't wanna put any effort into it and hopes that someone will carry them through it.



About the teamspeak thing, a lot of games and a lot of players would like to speak to you. From LoL to dota 2 to SC II to war craft III to Wow all the way to ffxiv. A lot of people would disagree with what you said.

Wait... people still aren't able to clear Twintania?

Edit coz I realized I sound like a douche:

A bunch of us cleared T5 before Second Coil was implemented and with a semi-PUG group. It took us most of a Sunday's evening and we made it, but only because we tried it before with learning PUGs just so we could understand the mechanics. We'd practice every weekend, and eventually cleared. With people's IL nowadays, with practice and patience it should be easier I think?

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Anyone who says that raid content should only be able to be completed by a few is utterly kidding themselves. Should there be a challenge in raids? Yes. Should you be able to get a clear within the first run? No (Unless you are epic). Should everyone be able to clear it? Yes

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Are you new to MMOs or something? The POINT of high tier raids is that only a certain group of people can complete them. I'd agree that they probably shouldn't have locked such an important story arc behind something that maybe 1% of the population can experience, but asking that the hardest raid in the game should be beatable by everyone is laughable. If anyone can do it, how is it hard, and what's the sense of achievement from doing something that everyone else can do? "If everyone is special, no one is."

And technically anyone can beat it...if they put in the time and effort to learn the fight (and especially their own job). Some don't even try to do the latter.

Apparently not Neuflune. I don't know. Anyone's that still scrambling with T5 and been with the game for any notable amount of time must not really be scrambling at all. If you know the fight, you're eventually going to join a clear group that's on your level. Eventually.

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Originally Posted by Mercutial

Apparently not Neuflune. I don't know. Anyone's that still scrambling with T5 and been with the game for any notable amount of time must not really be scrambling at all. If you know the fight, you're eventually going to join a clear group that's on your level. Eventually.

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Unless you are a dog..
http://www.impactlab.net/wp-content/...er-Dog-023.jpg
... then it might take eternity.

So the point was missed entirely, and was instead filled with "Do you even game bro?" type comments. Yes I've been playing MMOs since EVERQUEST VANILLA, and you want to talk about challenges? The older MMOs had challenges however everyone could clear it and it was fun. FFXIV has challenges Coil is a challenge (if you say its not then you are lying to yourself or just trying to make your epeen bigger) From a purely DEVELOPMENTAL STANDARD Coils are poorly designed. They tried to make content that was very similar to FFXI mechanics, the only problem is that FFXI the combat was much slower as you had many things to do (spells and the like) it was more tactical and made you think. FFXIV tries to do this however the combat is much faster paced and typing to other players to get information to one another (so you can play as a TEAM, in an ONLINE GAME, with OTHER PEOPLE you MAY NOT KNOW) is not reliably possible, which in turn just about requires you to the VC option. Why do you think 90% of all statics require: TeamSpeak, Ventrillo, Mumble, PS4 Chat...Its because its become essential to clearing the harder content. When you can have someone calling moves it makes it to where everything can perform better and faster as you don't have to pay as much attention to said moves (in terms of looking out for it).

Do I want Endgame content to be easier? No! No, I do not. Do I want it to be developed better? YES! One of two things should happen in this game to excuse itself from its poor Endgame development: 1) Add native VC features that work cross platform to merge both PC and console players better in Endgame or 2) Content needs to be developed with CHAT BASED COMMUNICATION IN MIND. (What I mean by this is Move B no longer begins as move A is at 85%) They need to program fights with a chat-based delay between things so people can communicate, as it stands now in the newer coils there is no time in which to communicate effectively through text based chat.

Final note before, I challenge anyone who says content doesn't need to be VC'd to clear easily: When Alexander comes out I CHALLENGE you to not use your Voice Chat option, instead rely only on a text based chat. If you can clear that content without any frustration that I will redact all my comments about VC, but I doubt you will be able to do it easily, its why you use VC to begin with.

Edit: FFXIV Coils are as to Party Play Expert mode on Rock Band. There is no difference between the two, both require you to memorize and hit the notes so to speak, again poor development.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

FFXIV should be one long corridor and every boss should have manual (how to kill it) above its head.

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I know you're being sarcastic but that IS how the game mechanic currently is..
There's a MANUAL for every boss. Where to stand, when to move, when to group up, disperse. When to burst dps on the boss, etc. etc. etc.

You think you're playing the game with your skills? You're just exploiting the weaknesses of each boss and each encounter. I don't know if that's by design, but if it is, then it's causing the fights to be monotonous, every run is the same.

If it isn't by design, SE should step up and fix the mechanics, throw in some random variables in there and make people react to the unknown.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

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I agree with the need of built in voice communication even when I think that coil is perfectly doable without voice communication.
If they made it possible to mute anyone to protect us from harassment it would be a nice thing to have.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

Why do you think 90% of all statics require: TeamSpeak, Ventrillo, Mumble, PS4 Chat...Its because its become essential to clearing the harder content. When you can have someone calling moves it makes it to where everything can perform better and faster as you don't have to pay as much attention to said moves (in terms of looking out for it).

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It's not even remotely essential, and most people who do use voice chat do it because they simply enjoy talking to their teammates, not because they need to be told what to do during the fight.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I agree with the need of built in voice communication even when I think that coil is perfectly doable without voice communication.
If they made it possible to mute anyone to protect us from harassment it would be a nice thing to have.

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They could make it where VC is only accessible through instanced content and not available in the over world. Bam, harassment issue solved, and of course a mute option should be present as with anything with VC options.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

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And older games didn't have some sort of a pattern to them, even if it was also more "random"? I'm sorry, but if you've been playing MMOs or games in general for that long and you still expect all content to be beatable by everyone, you're delusional, and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise because you won't accept it.

Please provide a source on Coil mechanics being similar to XI mechanics, because as far as I can tell that's just plain false. In fact some mechanics have been derived from WoW, which served as an inspiration for XIV 2.0 as a whole.

Also, macros exist. Arguably faster than voice chat in some situations, but less adaptable. A lot faster than typing stuff though.

There's several reasons why the devs won't add a voice chat function in-game, one of which is the fact that third-party software DOES exist that will probably always be better than any sort of in-game implementation of such a function. And muting doesn't suddenly convince someone harassing through voice chat to stop; that's just ignoring the problem by pretending it doesn't exist.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

It's not even remotely essential, and most people who do use voice chat do it because they simply enjoy talking to their teammates, not because they need to be told what to do during the fight.

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If it wasn't essential they wouldn't require it as a part of joining...that'd be quite silly if you require something just to be able to chat generally speaking to one another...Now that alot of the statics are farming the coils because they have cleared them already I would agree that VC is not really needed as they have a set attack plan, and VC is probably only needed on the 'WTF' moments that might occur, which is why I made the challenge in the first place. Running the content for the first time just about requires VC, especially in PUGs.

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

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I don't expect it to be beatable by everyone right away, however more than 5%-10% of a 4million player base should be able to access and beat it. You are literally telling me that it's okay for 3,600,000-3,800,000 players or 46,800,000-49,400,000 dollars a month worth of content be only accessible to 5-10% of the populace? And you say your not an elitist? I'd like to clarify something, I KNOW I CAN BEAT COIL AND I WILL; however there are legitimately players who cannot commit that time to memorization/studying, coil is one of the two endgame content sinks in this game (the other being Crystal Tower Saga) and 90-95% of them cannot enjoy it but have to pay for it? And again you find that okay?! Have you lost your friggin' mind? I'm not saying that I want content to be clearly by everyone but hell at least 50% of the player base should be able to clear it with a bit of a challenge, not 5-10%. If I'm being optimistic about the numbers that at the utmost 25% of the player base which still means 3,000,000 people have not cleared it or 39,000,000 dollars a month worth of content/development costs is not serving those players. Again, like I said, if you have any kind of Business/Entertainment knowledge you know that Coils are poorly designed. Period.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

If it wasn't essential they wouldn't require it as a part of joining...that'd be quite silly if you require something just to be able to chat generally speaking to one another...Now that alot of the statics are farming the coils because they have cleared them already I would agree that VC is not really needed as they have a set attack plan, and VC is probably only needed on the 'WTF' moments that might occur, which is why I made the challenge in the first place. Running the content for the first time just about requires VC, especially in PUGs.

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I've already done T1-T13 with my static without voice chat, with all 8 of us being first timers on every turn. It's never been an issue. People "requiring" voice chat doesn't mean voice chat is actually essential to succeeding. They either have the mistaken notion that it is, or they simply don't enjoy raiding without being able to talk to their teammates and want everyone to use it for that reason.

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Originally Posted by gamesmart

There's several reasons why the devs won't add a voice chat function in-game

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Can you imagine the server load?? They already have trouble sending out freaking emails for password reset after midnight (It's almost a sure bet if you change IP around 1am your pw reset email won't get sent for at least 30 minutes or so) and for them to host voice chat services :D I just don't see SE being able to pull it off with the current state of things.. I really hope the expansion and the European server move changes something.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

I've already done T1-T13 with my static without voice chat, with all 8 of us being first timers on every turn. It's never been an issue. People "requiring" voice chat doesn't mean voice chat is actually essential to succeeding. They either have the mistaken notion that it is, or they simply don't enjoy raiding without being able to talk to their teammates and want everyone to use it for that reason.

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Boom, this. It's a nice to have to build up some sort of personal relationship and trust, too. Most people requiring it like having a person who's watching things to keep people from tunneling on their DPS though, which happens with surprising frequency until people internalize their rotations completely.

Wait wait... Are we operating under the premise that some people are completely incapable of doing T5 or T9?

I did not know I was appointed or selected to be so special!

Everyone has the same access to those fights. There is nothing stopping anyone...

Except for themselves.

People who finish these fights usually only have 1-2 traits that those who cannot have:

1) initiative: to start a group, maintain a group, and put in the extra hours outside of showing up.
2) tenacity: to not quit when your group is overwhelmed, regresses, or has conflict and turnover.

There is no magic caste of doers. There is no specified time until mastery. Find people who are oike-minded and enjoy each other and drop some content at your pace. It isn't going anywhere. You're not a world first. Most of us will never be.

I just queued T5 alone on DF. Tank was new, he had maybe an average of IL95 to 100 items. We cleared in 3 tries (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Since T9 is essentially obsolete now (and FCOB will be once Alexander arrives), what would be the harm in making Binding Coil, including the fights against Twintania ands Nael, accessible?

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They did. It is called echo. And obscenely higher ilvl than needed.

There is no reason they could possible be considered inaccessible at this point. If you are patient, you will work DF/PF and find a good party and get the deed done. So again.. if you "can't" clear T5/T9 at this point you are either completely unmotivated to do so or (yes, I'm just going to say it) lacking in the necessary skills to do so. Harsh, but honest truth.

Heck, I had a friend come back to the game after nearly a year away and within a week he had cleared T9. You know why? Because he decided he wanted to get it done and did what he needed to to make sure he did.

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Originally Posted by GenJoe

I know you're being sarcastic but that IS how the game mechanic currently is..
There's a MANUAL for every boss. Where to stand, when to move, when to group up, disperse. When to burst dps on the boss, etc. etc. etc.

You think you're playing the game with your skills? You're just exploiting the weaknesses of each boss and each encounter. I don't know if that's by design, but if it is, then it's causing the fights to be monotonous, every run is the same.

If it isn't by design, SE should step up and fix the mechanics, throw in some random variables in there and make people react to the unknown.

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There's a guide for almost everything in life.

Take science, for instance: part of the basic principles of the Scientific Method is that experiments are to be conducted in a reproducible manner.

But that doesn't mean everyone can perform rocket science, does it? (Albeit this is an extreme comparison)

I like how every argument saying coil is too hard always falls back on people not wanting to even put an inkling of effort into it. Hopefully easy-mode alexander can satiate the people complaining coil is too hard. I've made my points and many people have responded similarly but others still want to complain about accessibility. It's there, just do it(tm).

Most of these responses are just getting more and more trollbait-y. People don't want to put the effort into learning the fights because it's too much memorization? That's the nature of combat in this game. It's exactly the same for literally every fight, even the dodgefest fights. Might as well complain that this game doesn't have FPS combat, or that it's not League of Legends, or how this game doesn't play like a certain older one with a significantly smaller playerbase ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ because that's where this discussion leads.

From what I understand, T9 has too many different mechanics across four distinct phases, in contrast to everything else in the game (even Steps of Faith), whereas Final Coil sounds like it would be much more accessible with echo in comparison. There's still Savage mode so what's the problem if the mechanics of the gates are loosened? As I pointed out the gear is already outdated compared to WoD and Poetics, and the story is too closely tied to Main Scenario and Crystal Tower for it to be denied to the casual playerbase just to satisfy the ego of a few hardcore raiders.

Or in simpler terms: don't you think T9 was too complicated for its own good? From looking at many places like reddit, the mechanics and phases are unreasonable to all but a very tiny percentage of the playerbase, and I think it is unreasonable to say demand Coil storyline and (obsolete) High Allagan Weapons be exclusive to a hardcore few.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

90-95% of them cannot enjoy it but have to pay for it? And again you find that okay?!

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What percentage of the playerbase finds legendary fishing to be enjoyable? What percentage of the playerbase finds Lucis tools to be enjoyable? Spiritbonding? Triple Triad? Zodiac weapons? PvP? The numbers vary all over the place, but the vast majority of the playerbase is disinterested in at least some of these things. Very few people are paying to enjoy ALL the content in the game. Most people find their money's worth in just a few things. If you don't, then the game isn't right for you and if it wasn't right for enough people to sustain itself then it would be a failure.

DEAR SE...

Please nerf crafting. I suck at it. I really and truly do. The rotations are far too complex and convoluted. And there is FAR too much RNG involved. So many patterns to memorize! Oy vey!
Also, there are some important level 50 Alchemist and Fishing cut scenes I'm missing out on. That's not fair.

Sincerely,
Mercutial

Thanks bunches.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

From what I understand, T9 has too many different mechanics across four distinct phases, in contrast to everything else in the game (even Steps of Faith), whereas Final Coil sounds like it would be much more accessible with echo in comparison. There's still Savage mode so what's the problem if the mechanics of the gates are loosened? As I pointed out the gear is already outdated compared to WoD and Poetics, and the story is too closely tied to Main Scenario and Crystal Tower for it to be denied to the casual playerbase just to satisfy the ego of a few hardcore raiders.

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Turn 12 shatters your argument.

4 distinct phases, usually with 2+ mechanics each and not many that are repeated and reused.

Also: would you prefer pushover gatekeepers that gave no sense of accomplishment for beating? Doesn't sound very exciting or rewarding.

Edit:

Also ask yourselves why it is so important. I think a lot of it comes down to loot envy in the end. And loot is the byproduct not the reason.

The reason is the challenge and overcoming those challenges, some of which feel insurmountable. The bigger the obstacle the more rewarding it is when it goes down.

Gear should not be the driving force. It is too ephemeral to cling to when you're faced with something like Nael or Twin.

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Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK

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You know, for someone who that claims to have been around since EQ, you sure seem clueless about how things were beaten back then. The concept of TS, or VoIP in general, did not even begin to see MODERATE use until around 2005, long after games like EQ and even FFXI had been released. We beat content... ALL content... through text communication. Believe it or not, the internet didn't start to become a household expectation until around 2002, where it still wasn't uncommon to find people with dial-up services instead of broadband.

We got by through prepping ourselves. Creating macros (if the game had it as a usable feature) to alert party members of things. We would end up wiping as we learned how to get through mechanics... not unlike now, even with VoIP. Now, with the internet as "mandatory" as it is, we have a multitude of tools to use to get us through content, such as walkthroughs readily available for people to use. Games like FFXIV will often broadcast target abilities to alert you of impending danger (the effects and results vary), which I would think don't always require someone to tell you something very noticeable just appeared on your own screen.

The requirement of VoIP by people is simply because it's become the norm, due to how potentially beneficial it is for ease of success. Devs will NEVER EVER create content that requires this to succeed. Truth be told, I'd rather not bother listening to the same mouth-breathers complaining about the stupidest things or threatening each other like you would in some FPS game. Even if you could turn off such a feature from the game, it's tainting the fun of it just knowing that there's another source of shit feedback coming from our peers.

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Originally Posted by Ayrie

Turn 12 shatters your argument.

4 distinct phases, usually with 2+ mechanics each and not many that are repeated and reused.

Also: would you prefer pushover gatekeepers that gave no sense of accomplishment for beating? Doesn't sound very exciting or rewarding.

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You mean like Lahabrea, Phlegethon, and Xande?

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

Or in simpler terms: don't you think T9 was too complicated for its own good? From looking at many places like reddit, the mechanics and phases are unreasonable to all but a very tiny percentage of the playerbase, and I think it is unreasonable to say demand Coil storyline and (obsolete) High Allagan Weapons be exclusive to a hardcore few.

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What exactly makes the mechanics and phases unreasonable? Also.. you hardly have to be the "hardcore few" to beat T9. You just have to (I'll say it again) take some initiative and be motivated to do it.

Hardcore few? Over a day there are more than 100 farm parties of FCOB on every bigger server, T9 is no longer a thing of hardcore few.

As described on this reddit post, one of the comments:

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No single mechanic in turn 9 is significantly more difficult to learn than the ones in other end-game encounters, but the fact that ther are four fucking phases, each with wildly diferent movement/positional reqirements means that the only way to make progress is to play with people who have experience up to the same part of the fight as you do. Which is unlikely to happen when you're grouped with 7 random people. SE has done a good job on a lot of things in this game, and it's a well-put-together encounter, but how could they think that DF groups would be anything other than frustrating lessons in futility 99% of the time? I can only hope that SE learned from this when they were designing Heavensward's end-game raid.

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The fact that making a mistake on any one simple mechanic means you have to start all over (and probably get kicked out), and that you can't even practice the later phases unless you and seven others can perfectly execute the ones before it is absurd considering the gear rewards (that you only get two of) at the end are now obsolete.

Do what everyone else does when learning/practicing this content. Put in PF... "must know to Heavensfall" or "must know P4". It will still fill up.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

You mean like Lahabrea, Phlegethon, and Xande?

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Yes....

Exactly like that....

Treating this as bait :D

In the past MMORPGs used to test reflexes and end-game content, but as accessibility becomes a top priority, these kind of encounters have taken a back seat with strictly scripted encounters being the norm. That's just what will attract more people: encounters with a guarantee of success as long as you learn the fight beforehand.

The difficulty of fights in FFXIV:ARR are based on execution only, that's just the direction the game has taken. Scripted fights also allow more freedom in designing gimmicks that make it possible for fights to be more than just dodging things and doing your rotation. It provides a uniform experience across all players and all instances of the fight.

It's hard to say which is better if it means anything at all. The two types of fights require different types of abilities. And execution abilities happen to be the type more people are comfortable with. If you have ever enjoyed a movie, there's no reason you can't enjoy scripted fights. It just requires taking a fresh look at things and embracing it.

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

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Or you can put time to try and actually learn the fights? It's not current and you don't want to put the same effort as other players who have worked to clear it therefore it should be made easier (moreso than it already has) and handed to you on a platter? That's a ridiculous request. You complain about too many mechanics. How do you fare learning all the other mechanics of literally every other fight in this game? Or are you one of those people who always end up dead in towers and trials because you can't be bothered to figure out how the mechanics work? Because that's what you're sounding like.

Final coil has it's fair share of oneshot mechanics. With echo if you manage to reach it you'll just come running back to the forums complaining it's too hard again.

This all boils down, like I said, to players like you wanting everything handed to you. There are many players out there trying to learn or even players who have cleared everything willing to teach. But when you make 0 effort vs these players who are trying their hardest (and succeeding) even now in 2.55 to clear T5/T9 in pugs why should the game cater it to you?

Also that reddit post you linked....not only was it downvoted to negative...but notice how a lot of the comments are saying the EXACT SAME THING.

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You are having such problem because you are not patient enough to commit a temporary group in pf for contents from last cycle, nor in a static for said matters and "hardcore" contents in the future.

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I'm not gonna bother repeating myself about learning parties because you're either gonna nitpick my comment and ignore the point or cry that I'm a "toxic elitist".

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Originally Posted by Zohar_Lahar

You mean like Lahabrea, Phlegethon, and Xande?

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Do you actually think it's an accomplishment to clear CT and ST?
Cause... it's not. Like at all.

Square Enix clearly thinks it's a milestone since you get an achievement upon first clear.

T9 only seems difficult because it's one "tier" below T14, like how T5 seemed so difficult when Second Coil was new.

I'm not hardcore. I don't have a static. I don't have those cool HQ accessories with tons of materia. I practiced for a few hours every Sunday, same as when I cleared T5, with different groups of people both who have cleared and not cleared. On a Saturday after 2 Sundays of practice, I cleared T9 with 2 friends, the rest were complete strangers. Cleared T10 on the same night. Farming it at the moment for the darn caster hat as I look over these forums.