An open discsusion on the consequences of death

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Originally Posted by Argh

there is no reward without risk.

racing to end game is not my thing.

if the children can't handle xp loss then they should bring out a couple servers with classic ffxi rule sets so the veterans can a real adventure.

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How about you play this game called real life, where's your death is permanent. It's awesome, it's very realistic and hardcore.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

How about you play this game called real life, where's your death is permanent. It's awesome, it's very realistic and hardcore.

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oh god LOL

I wonder... If there was a toggle option where you could select xp loss after death how many would pick it? Also, how long before they toggle it off?

Im a vet from Xi and died plenty of times from saving people, idiots, or bloddwarping. I am and never will be afraid of it. Its just an ancient idea that affects the game on a larger scale than people think. The end Result is a lot more severe compared to some stupid thrill of xp loss.

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Originally Posted by Akumu

I wonder... If there was a toggle option where you could select xp loss after death how many would pick it? Also, how long before they toggle it off?

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Give them a reward to balance the risk. In my "hardcore mode" outline, I used the example of +5% attack or +5% SP gain while "XP Loss on Death" mode is toggled on.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Give them a reward to balance the risk. In my "hardcore mode" outline, I used the example of +5% attack or +5% SP gain while "XP Loss on Death" mode is toggled on.

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I didn't add your idea because as of now people are just looking for a higher "Difficulty" or whatever. So I was just wondering If only these "Grown ups" would still enjoy themselves if we weren't involved in this idiotic game. This would also be win/win right? some get their adrenaline filled kick in the nuts while the rest wear a "cup" so to speak.

They feel the painful stomach boiling pressure while others still get the feeling of it but not enough to have us clutched on the ground with veins popping out our foreheads.

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Originally Posted by Stilla

Introduce bonus effects for not dieing, so when you die, you loose the effect of the bonus.


For example:

Slaying and defeating adversaries currently gives players experience points. If in addition to the level progression experience points they give you for killing beasts, you also received points for staying alive. The points gained are used to reach milestones which result in attribute bonuses.

With each milestone you receive, you will enhance certain aspects of your Player Character.

Lets just say there are 5 tiers.

* Rank 0 – No effects.

* Rank 1 (5,000 points) – Raise all Attributes by 1

* Rank 2 (10,000 points)– Raise all Attributes by an additional 1

* Rank 3 (20,000 points)– Raise all Attributes by an additional 1 and gain an additional effect to increase running speed.

* Rank 4 (30,000 points) – Raise all Attributes by an additional 3

* Rank 5 (50,000 points) - Raise all Attributes by an additional 5 and gain an additional effect to increase running speed.

If you obtained rank 5 and you died, you would fall to rank 4. If you were rank 1 and died you would fall to rank 0. If you are rank 0 and die there is no loss as you are have no bonus effect.

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Yeah I like the idea.

But instead of time, it could be an amount of exp gained before dying, so it forces you to actually fight (especially some strong mobs) instead of just standing there logged in but AFK just to cumulate the bonuses

This, with exp chains, would incite people to play well and efficiently because efficiency would actually be rewarded. The fastest you kill the stronger mobs, the fastest you reach your bonuses, which favor faster kills and better chains etc.

Dying in such a system would severely alter exp/hour but would not represent an additional time sink for casual players who were just feeling like exploring

Well Yoshi said in one of his post that they would be adding an penalty cause people all over the game are just killing them selves and that's not good. I forgot which letter that was from tho

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Originally Posted by Firon

Well Yoshi said in one of his post that they would be adding an penalty cause people all over the game are just killing them selves and that's not good. I forgot which letter that was from tho

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Are you sure? I think he was just talking about the problem of "death porting", since everyone purposefully suiciding themselves to save anima is just plain dumb.

There's an easy solution to that: Make "return" cost 0 anima, and make the player lose 1 anima on death.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Well Yoshi said in one of his post that they would be adding an penalty cause people all over the game are just killing them selves and that's not good. I forgot which letter that was from tho

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He was likely referring to blood warping, and there was no mention of making any radical changes to the death system.

I don't think the solution to the problem is to make a stricter death penalty.. the solution is to create content that gives you a reason not to die. A timed dungeon raid with monsters that respawn or something.

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Originally Posted by Grit

He was likely referring to blood warping, and there was no mention of making any radical changes to the death system.

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How else does one blood warp, except through death?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

How else does one blood warp, except through death?

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Huh? Did you read my post?

All he said was that he didn't like people killing themselves as a way of travel. But didn't go into any detail on how he would reform the death system to fix that.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

How else does one blood warp, except through death?

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What? lol

You're gonna have to make that more clear... the level of stupidity hit me like a brick wall. I don't understand where to begin... understanding...?

No need for name calling, keep the discussion civil please.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Better then people death warping left and right.

There's a difference when people try as hard as possible not to die, and those that get inconvenienced when they die.

A tank dying so the party can escape, or a sacrificial pull for the greater good of the alliance gets a salute.
The same thing in FF14 would be a coffee break. Might not even bother to care, and let everyone die to start over anyway.

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At first I was on the fence about this issue, but you examples made me remember why I liked the penalty. I remember doing just this in FFXI, then it was all but forgotten in WoW. I suppose Im for this, but not to big a penalty. I hated delevelling, finding out I can't wear my newly bought armor anymore, and having made the mistake of selling my old armor. Come to think of it, this wouldn't be an issue for this game in its current state.

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Originally Posted by Firon

Well Yoshi said in one of his post that they would be adding an penalty cause people all over the game are just killing them selves and that's not good. I forgot which letter that was from tho

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Originally Posted by Grit

He was likely referring to blood warping, and there was no mention of making any radical changes to the death system.

I don't think the solution to the problem is to make a stricter death penalty.. the solution is to create content that gives you a reason not to die. A timed dungeon raid with monsters that respawn or something.

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From the Producer's letter:
"We are also looking into players using death warps (or blood warps, or whatever other name you wish to give them). We will be making a decision on how to address this following the release of quests. After all, having a bunch of adventurers committing suicide isn't very FINAL FANTASY-esque, now, is it?"

The only way to fix all applications of the blood warp would be a change to the death/return system. What good is content going to do when you're on the floor?

Make the debuff on death longer, decrease the reward of the leve/dungeon/etc if you must. Anything more is a pointless argument because if you implement experience loss on death, SE will be losing a huge amount of potential customers. Something they especially can't afford to do right now.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

The only way to fix all applications of the blood warp would be a change to the death/return system. What good is content going to do when you're on the floor?

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Fixing the system so that you can't efficiently blood-warp isn't a major change. All they need to do is make it cost anima to return after a death.

And the content I was talking about was aimed at the original topic of this discussion, which is giving players more incentive not to die.

How about this for an idea:

Remove the way you currently earn surplus and instead use the surplus system for being KOed.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

How about this for an idea:

Remove the way you currently earn surplus and instead use the surplus system for being KOed.

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I kind of like where you're going with that.

Earn surplus XP over time (all of the time) that is automatically put towards your death penalties. Die too often and it will start eating into your actual XP..

Thusly, people who play skillfully and without getting KO'd very often will never suffer an actual death penalty.

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Originally Posted by Corrderio

How about this for an idea:

Remove the way you currently earn surplus and instead use the surplus system for being KOed.

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I think i'd prefer it that way^

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Originally Posted by ESAR

I think I have a solution to your problem.

If SP was distributed EVERY hit (I have a perfect calculation to do so)found here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ginal-ideas-!-! or here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...t-Distribution

Everyone would be less likely to want to die, as the downtime would effect SP gain.

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Your ideas are good.. but I don't see how the downtime of dieing and then running back to your party or monster would be any different if you were gaining SP with each hit.. could you elaborate? In this thread, please =P

If we go back to action-based SP, everyone will revert do doing stupid behavior like spamming status WSes, tanking naked, and having archers stand in front of the raptors' AOE breath move.

So no SP/XP loss? You would rather have durability loss? OK.

Introduce Brittle gear and/or Break On Death gear. Have some or all gear break at 0% dura. Have special items/accessories that break once the character dies.

I also want to add that when instanced dungeons are introduced (they will be, count on it) that there will probably be no aetheryte to save you. When you die in the instance, you will have to be Raised or home point out. If they have an aetheryte, it will be at the start and high level instances won't have time for you to run back, weakened, to where you last died.

There is your great penalty: Failure.

SP penalty? You must be masochist... it'll never prevent anyone from using a r1 job to death warp as much as it won't prevent anyone from fighting with crap gear, and will only annoy people who die doing, say, stupid leve, running into a random r60+ aggro mob that wander in a noob area, die going to camp to bring back leve (high rank ones)... and so on.

imagine dying on your craft job and how pissed you'd be, then think again about the SP penalty. There should be some penalty, maybe higher recast timers and stuff. SP? forget it. it's "has been".

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Originally Posted by Stilla

Introduce bonus effects for not dieing, so when you die, you loose the effect of the bonus.


For example:

Slaying and defeating adversaries currently gives players experience points. If in addition to the level progression experience points they give you for killing beasts, you also received points for staying alive. The points gained are used to reach milestones which result in attribute bonuses.

With each milestone you receive, you will enhance certain aspects of your Player Character.

Lets just say there are 5 tiers.

* Rank 0 – No effects.

* Rank 1 (5,000 points) – Raise all Attributes by 1

* Rank 2 (10,000 points)– Raise all Attributes by an additional 1

* Rank 3 (20,000 points)– Raise all Attributes by an additional 1 and gain an additional effect to increase running speed.

* Rank 4 (30,000 points) – Raise all Attributes by an additional 3

* Rank 5 (50,000 points) - Raise all Attributes by an additional 5 and gain an additional effect to increase running speed.

If you obtained rank 5 and you died, you would fall to rank 4. If you were rank 1 and died you would fall to rank 0. If you are rank 0 and die there is no loss as you are have no bonus effect.

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Yeah, this is sort of like my idea, but I like your concept of achieving "staying alive" bonus better. The flaw with what I proposed is that you could just eventually get the "staying alive" bonus by not playing for a while. In your proposal, you actually have to work and play the game to get the status. You have to earn it.

To make things interesting, I would suggest that if you die, you revert to rank 0. That would make death even more tragic and scary.

Everyone saying that the current penalty is fine or the current penalty is enough... well that's the problem in my opinion. I think the penalty for dying should be bad enough to make us think that it's NOT fine or it's TOO much. This isn't because I like pain. It's because I think this is what gives battle in the game that sense of danger. The exp loss in FFXI did a great job doing this.

I do understand what people are saying with how running back and exp loss are both time sinks in the end. The feeling I got when facing danger was very different though. Running back from the aetheryte is simply a matter of time, and the thought that goes through my mind when I'm about to die is literally "oh well... it's only going to take five minutes to get back here." When my party got into an "Oh shit!" situation in ffxi, it was "oh man! I don't wanna die!!" I'm sure there are many factors that play into this difference of reaction when facing danger, and I think the lack of penalty for dying is one of them.

I do agree that there should be a heavier penalty for dying, but I don't think exp/sp penalty is right for the current FFXIV. Every monster having a ranged attack does make it hard to avoid death sometimes even if you know what you're doing, and the difficulty level jump from increasing/decreasing it by one star is too big for some leves; 4 stars can be impossible while 3 stars can be too easy for the same leve. The exp loss penalty may fit more once they change the battle system.

Shouldn't a death penalty be something people are adverse to other than something they prefer? Its like asking a thief in real life what they want as punishment for robbery and all thieves agreeing that jail is too harsh and that the best punishment for them getting caught is to just walk back and put the item they stole back.

I've pretty much never died in battle except in circumstances of lag and latency. XP loss is "acceptable" for me, but if I'm to be punished for death, I'd rather it be because of something stupid that I did rather than because of issues with the system. However, it's impossible for the game to differentiate the cause of death on the server-side, and any punishment implemented to generic death would necessarily affect latency death as well. Ergo, latency is so terrible at the moment that I don't think it would be right to discuss death penalties just yet. It'd be better to wait until this is a non-issue.

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Originally Posted by Raim

Make the debuff on death longer, decrease the reward of the leve/dungeon/etc if you must. Anything more is a pointless argument because if you implement experience loss on death, SE will be losing a huge amount of potential customers. Something they especially can't afford to do right now.

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what game are you plaing? ffxiv already lost 90% of it's player base with no death penalty as it is....

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

How about you play this game called real life, where's your death is permanent. It's awesome, it's very realistic and hardcore.

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the difference between you and i is that i want a challenging and thrilling mmo, where you prefer to be invincible while exploiting and racing to end game levels.

Can there be no better way to implement a death penalty besides getting kicked in the nuts? Only way I will accept playing a modern MMO and having such a stupid penalty again SE will have to make a poll about this with majority in favor. It crippled a lot more than people seemed to realize when playing XI(if you did play it). Is there NO other solution? I like Stilla take on the matter since it rewards you for staying alive. I would only add that once you die you drop back down to 0. Why must i get kicked in my nuts twice for dying? When I die in a game I don't brush it off as o well who cares because guess what? You didn't advance anywhere and you just got your ass kicked on top of that you are raised at the crystal and everybody else knows you just got your ass kicked... Then you have to run all the way back and hopefully you don't repeat yourself.

BTW anyone else play single player games? You telling me once you die you brush it off as o well? You same people enjoy doing the same thing over and over? Then you must LOVE XIV in its current state...

edit: Dying and having xp loss does not add a thrilling challenge...Since we are talking about death we also aren't talking about being invincible...Challenge and Thrills can only be added with content...

Y'know, I'm in favor of the traditional "Save Point" idea. Whenever you go back to the city or mog house, it automatically saves your current sp/exp amount.

When you die, you lose everything since that point if you "return".

Might get kinda annoying during grinding tho. 30 minutes in, party might already want to head back to town to resave. But it would definitely make Raise way more useful at least.

Absolutely no save points outside of cities or in dungeons though. That's just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Argh

what game are you plaing? ffxiv already lost 90% of it's player base with no death penalty as it is....

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I don't think it's the lack of an excessively punitive death penalty that drove them off.

And an exp loss would be the nail in the coffin for many of us that remain and those who considering taking up the game.

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Originally Posted by Argh

the difference between you and i is that i want a challenging and thrilling mmo, where you prefer to be invincible while exploiting and racing to end game levels.

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That's actually a very unfair generalization. I am one of the people who it is all about the journey for me. My character in FFXIV is only level 26, and I've been playing since closed beta. I played FFXI for four years and never got to level cap (I got to level 64).

Yet, I am strongly opposed to exp loss upon death.

On a sidenote, I have no problem with Surplus and have yet to experience it.

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Originally Posted by Argh

the difference between you and i is that i want a challenging and thrilling mmo, where you prefer to be invincible while exploiting and racing to end game levels.

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The difference between you and I is that you are under the illusion that you are almighty challenging some pixelated death penalty and scared to face the harsh and hardcore real life, and want everyone to follow suit. FFXIV lost 90% of its player base because of little death penalty? Get real, it lost player because of how it is and death penalty has 0 thing to do with it. Any negative review out there that say anything about death penalty? Any positive review out there slam anything about death penalty? Oh and I'm sorry I got to end-game before you, so much that you want to make up a reason to look cool yourself.

Anyone want a death penalty clearly haven't tried fighting NM in small party. Death = wiped = time sink. FYI NM enrage every 30 minutes and they will also despawn. Also FYI Faction Leve NM is a joke compare to real NM. Want a challenge? Get a challenge yourself.

I know earlier I said I agree'ed with the OP on the 5% XP loss. But now upon really thinking about it...Yeah, FF:XI did have that sense of danger and it was fun. But when I did Dynamis and died about...Ohhhhh 5 times a run. I got pissed real quick. Now, you might be saying "BUT YOU WERE ALREADY LVL 75 YOU NOOB, THIS WON'T AFFECT YOU BECAUSE IT DOESN'T RESULT IN LEVEL LOSS!". Got it. But now you have to release you're cutting people out of doing low level dungeon content. which may not seem like a huge loss right now, but to the potential thousands of monthly subscribers that SE will attract when the PS3 version comes out, thats a big deal. Right now, honestly the biggest block that we should ALL be focusing on, is lack of content, and instanced dungeons with boss monsters at certain intervals within those dungeons. Yes, you're right that's been done in WoW. This is a MMO RPG not an MMO Action game in an RPG setting. Got it again. But think about it, you do those dungeons you die, you lose 5% and that sets you back. The casual player is pretty unforgiving about a thing like that especially since there are so many other MMO's out there to play. FF:XI didn't have the rivalry of WoW until 2 years into it's NA release...not a luxury they can afford now especially with cataclysm's release. So...the punishment for dying? Automatic transport back to your last known aetheyrite location. Not the location of your choice. You want to run from Ul'dah to Gridania, but don't want to stop and check in at an aetheyr along the way? Too bad...start back at Ul'dah.

I know the next thing I'm going to get argued against is "Item's should be degraded for dying"...I disagree, in fact I believe that item degradation shouldn't exist at all. Instead make those "rare" items that make a "super" build incredibly difficult to obtain. What was the drop rate on leaping lizzy boots? exactly. right there is your gil sink, and your competition to obtain it. Make open world NM drops way more sought after than instanced world NM drops.

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Originally Posted by MariyaShidou

Oh and I'm sorry I got to end-game before you, so much that you want to make up a reason to look cool yourself.

Anyone want a death penalty clearly haven't tried fighting NM in small party. Death = wiped = time sink. FYI NM enrage every 30 minutes and they will also despawn. Also FYI Faction Leve NM is a joke compare to real NM. Want a challenge? Get a challenge yourself.

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wake up call;

i don't play the game, and nobody else does, besides you and few others....because the game sucks. so i could care less if you exploited to end game or the fact you are wasting your time when there are real mmo's out there to be played.

a death penalty would not work with this broken game because it is solo-based and you die too often. it must all be fixed. AKA; real party battles with camp and pulls like in ffxi.

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Originally Posted by Anathiel

I know earlier I said I agree'ed with the OP on the 5% XP loss. But now upon really thinking about it...Yeah, FF:XI did have that sense of danger and it was fun. But when I did Dynamis and died about...Ohhhhh 5 times a run. I got pissed real quick.

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Really now? You didn't do merit parties at all? You're upset about having to spend less than 10 minutes to get that all back? Not to mention there's always Raise spells which cut that loss down quite a bit.

Not that you don't make a good point tho. In zones like dynamis where there is a massive amount of people, the chances of you dying being your fault is less likely. Most situations, it takes 1 person to wipe the group. In answer to that, I would personally like to see group-shared exp loss when someone dies within acceptable range of the group.

I quit playing before merit parties. ( I was "old-school" lol) I'm not trying to sound like I'm better than anybody but really, how long did it take SE before they implemented merit parties? 2005? game came out in america (for pc) in 2003...2 years man.