White Mage vs Scholar - Why is White Mage lacking?

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

Not to mention: Full DPS scholar? Really? Might as well just bring another DPS class. A fully geared, accuracy melded scholar contributes maybe 300-350 DPS when they're permanently in cleric's stance. If you bring in another monk or dragoon, they'll do 500-550 or perhaps more. This is a 200-250 DPS difference which just having selene around cannot bridge. This approach is in the same category as solo tanking rather than bringing two tanks.

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Because while you are doing 300-350 dps, your fairy is applying hps. Not only that, but you have lustrates as a nice panic button.

I think we're going into every single piece of content now. Hehe. To be honest, I actually forgot how awesome White Mages are in 4-man content. I've been so accustomed to Holy spam that it just became second nature.

But I digress, when you're given a choice between Scholar vs. DPS for the sole purpose of DPS, I'd take another DPS class.

So can we now agree after 20 pages of back and forth that neither SCH or WHM are superior to the other. Each have their own strength and weaknesses but in the end both compliment one another a lot more.

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Originally Posted by firstsin

So can we now agree after 20 pages of back and forth that neither SCH or WHM are superior to the other. Each have their own strength and weaknesses but in the end both compliment one another a lot more.

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Ha! I said this about 6, maybe 7 pages ago? lol

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Originally Posted by Zedd702

Ha! I said this about 6, maybe 7 pages ago? lol

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There is already another thread about this nonsense started already :/

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Originally Posted by Slib

Because while you are doing 300-350 dps, your fairy is applying hps. Not only that, but you have lustrates as a nice panic button.

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Still not a logical argument. If a white mage is solo healing, they'll need to pump out a bit more HPS any way. Yes, more HPS will bleed more MP. But the added DPS differences between a proper DPS class against a scholar's will also reduce the total encounter time by far more, requiring less total MP to maintain that HPS. Lustrate may or may not be a proper argument, it really depends on how well the white mage handles things.

People are aware of the fact that the top world and server hardcore raid teams have both whitemage and scholar, right? Whitemage must be good for something to keep his/her place in these top notch teams. It is understandable that some people like to one healing class over another. Until these top notch teams stop having a specific healing class to clear content, can we please just agree that they are both awesome healing classes?

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Originally Posted by Yare

People are aware of the fact that the top world and server hardcore raid teams have both whitemage and scholar, right? Whitemage must be good for something to keep his/her place in these top notch teams. It is understandable that some people like to one healing class over another. Until these top notch teams stop having a specific healing class to clear content, can we please just agree that they are both awesome healing classes?

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+1 (......)

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Originally Posted by Yare

People are aware of the fact that the top world and server hardcore raid teams have both whitemage and scholar, right? Whitemage must be good for something to keep his/her place in these top notch teams. It is understandable that some people like to one healing class over another. Until these top notch teams stop having a specific healing class to clear content, can we please just agree that they are both awesome healing classes?

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I'm not disagreeing with your point, but your logic is bad. I could argue that instead of white mages being good, the reason top groups bring a white mage is because shields don't stack well, or because of the limit break penalty for having more than one of the same class or even that it's not optimal to bring a white Mage but the best groups are so skilled that they get away with it and everyone copies them.

I don't believe any of those things, mind you; I am just arguing for argument's sake. I would love a buff to white mage mp or accuracy so that I could actually dps in raid downtime without feeling like I'm risking things later in the fight for no purpose, but it's a minor complaint.

I prefer to play whm as the heals feel better I don't have to worry about stacks of something to be able to do a big heal and I cast less spells when healing a group. Succor just doesn't feel like it cuts it as an AoE heal when a WHM can easily do it in a Cure III, Medica or Medica II. Plus whm healing doesn't feel like such a snooze fest when I overgear the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Menae

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Erm... not one of your point has any validity to. You also point out you are arguing for the sake of arguing. At least make effort to add something meaningful not bash WHM.

For some stupid reason healers are now dps class. Simply put if your group lacks dps it is not because there is a WHM in the party. It is because the dps suck. If you are also doing content where there are a lot of down time then you are either slacking and letting your co-healer work harder or you are overgeared for the content you are in.

I feel tired of all this nonsense ... whm are so useless ... whm can't dps ... sch are better...SS is better than everything ... Sch solo heal everything ...

So :
WHM shield is better you will need it in t13 if you are not overgeared.
WHM will give +10mind to your sch.
SCH get a better dps, it doesn't mean that whm can't dps. The gap between them isn't that huge.
Of course it can be huge in some fight like t12 where sch dps and whm solo heal.
Sch solo heal ... Whm does it too ...

Arguing this way the only things you will get is a whm up. Is that realy what you want? XD

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Originally Posted by Menae

I'm not disagreeing with your point, but your logic is bad. I could argue that instead of white mages being good, the reason top groups bring a white mage is because shields don't stack well, or because of the limit break penalty for having more than one of the same class or even that it's not optimal to bring a white Mage but the best groups are so skilled that they get away with it and everyone copies them.

I don't believe any of those things, mind you; I am just arguing for argument's sake. I would love a buff to white mage mp or accuracy so that I could actually dps in raid downtime without feeling like I'm risking things later in the fight for no purpose, but it's a minor complaint.

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lolno. Yare's point/logic is actually far more accurate than your post.

Arguing that WHM is better only because SCH shields don't stack is absolutely ludicrous. WHM protect is far superior to SCH. Even if the SCH shields were stackable, most high-end game mechanics would eat it in one fell swipe, hell even some of the EX primals would do that.

WHM does not need an MP buff. WHM can also already DPS in downtime in raids (Cleric stance >>insert your choice DPS spell here<<) WHM is not supposed to be a brain dead class to play, not that I am saying SCH is, even though to a point it can be in low level and mid game play, because of the pocket healer.

Benediction is poor. 80% of the time healing a dead target. Wasting Bene, a GCD and Cast time for next spell instead of recast.
Bene is poor.

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Originally Posted by Tarta

Benediction is poor. 80% of the time healing a dead target. Wasting Bene, a GCD and Cast time for next spell instead of recast.
Bene is poor.

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I won't argue with you there. Benediction is not the WHM's best skill, but is certainly not the worst either. But every player that knows WHM well enough, should know how to deal with the use of Benediction. It's more of an "oh shit" button or a CD for a WHM that does DPS and let the tank take too much damage. But that does not make WHM sub-par to SCH

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Originally Posted by Tarta

Benediction is poor. 80% of the time healing a dead target. Wasting Bene, a GCD and Cast time for next spell instead of recast.
Bene is poor.

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No.

If you find that it is healing a dead target 80% of the time that is your fault, and not the spell's. I have had only one instance that I can recall where Bene didn't work properly, and it wasn't due to the spell's function. It was because of my own stupidity. I wasn't paying attention and accidentally casted it on myself. If I had casted it on the tank everything would have been fine. Don't blame a spell just because you have the inability to use it properly. It's an oh shit spell. Learn to use it properly and it will serve you well.

And let's not forget that it can be used to full effect while in CS. If you are using Holy at the start of a pull and your tank takes massive damage for whatever reason, you can stay in CS and just cure with Bene when they get too low.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

And let's not forget that it can be used to full effect while in CS. If you are using Holy at the start of a pull and your tank takes massive damage for whatever reason, you can stay in CS and just cure with Bene when they get too low.

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This is by far my most favorite thing to do in dungeons.

Regen > Cleric Stance > Wait a bit > PoM > Holy > Holy > Holy > Holy .... > Benediction > Holy > Holy > Holy > Holy.

If everything's not dead by then, then I would consider my group's dps pretty uhh...terrible.

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Originally Posted by Sumimi

This is by far my most favorite thing to do in dungeons.

Regen > Cleric Stance > Wait a bit > PoM > Holy > Holy > Holy > Holy .... > Benediction > Holy > Holy > Holy > Holy.

If everything's not dead by then, then I would consider my group's dps pretty uhh...terrible.

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Exactly. Sometimes I fall into a Holy Spam pattern to mix things up. It's hell on MP but it's better than the whole constantly stance dancing. I don't mind stance dancing but sometimes I want to be lazy too!

Honestly the only thing that I think whm need to be on par with Scholar is the following:
1.) Benediction: Make the effect activate before the animation.
2.) Shroud of Saints: Lower Recast to 1 Minute. (An alternative would be to increase the duration/potency of the effect)

That doesn't mean that White Mage is weaker than Scholar just less efficient at MP management.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Honestly the only thing that I think whm need to be on par with Scholar is the following:
1.) Benediction: Make the effect activate before the animation.
2.) Shroud of Saints: Lower Recast to 1 Minute. (An alternative would be to increase the duration/potency of the effect)

That doesn't mean that White Mage is weaker than Scholar just less efficient at MP management.

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I don't really understand why everyone thinks WHMs need more MP stuff. The only issues I've run into with MP issues is either with Holy Spam, Rezz spam, or death.

And Bene doesn't really need to be changed. I don't find the "lag" on it to be an issue at all. It's not that hard to figure out, and it's easier to just ignore the animation all together. Or see it as a very, very short cast time.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I don't really understand why everyone thinks WHMs need more MP stuff. The only issues I've run into with MP issues is either with Holy Spam, Rezz spam, or death.

And Bene doesn't really need to be changed. I don't find the "lag" on it to be an issue at all. It's not that hard to figure out, and it's easier to just ignore the animation all together. Or see it as a very, very short cast time.

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Well there two reasons for this, first off the MP management of a White Mage is limited while a Scholar can run things without many MP issue not just because of the recast of our shroud but also because of the potency and because they have energy drain.

As for the bene. we have 2 unfair advantages vs the scholar lust. first off they get 3 lust every minute which is basically like a bene., and our recast is much higher than lust. And to top it off they don't have animation lag so if the tank is at 10% health they have a better chance of saving them with lust. than our bene.

And your also forgetting that Scholar has two healers when it comes to themselves and eos so they are basically gods when compared to white mages and anyone that thinks overwise is crazy because white mage will never be able to compete with a equal ilv scholar unless the battle requires a lot of AOE healing. The only reason why White Mages aren't replaced is like said in the thread x 2 scholar don't work very well and we only have 2 healing classes but with astrologian that could be the death of white mage.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

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http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/54...ffc0_50x50.jpg

That may be true, about Benediction cast time, but its still on the WHM for casting it too late. You completely glossed over that Lustrates heal 25% health (3 = 75% not 100%) and they use Aetherflow. This may not seem that bad as "omg they can spam 6 in a row (depending on aetherflow CD)" or whatever, but Aetherflow is used for Bane and Sacred Soul as well. Lustrate may be instacast and such but I feel its balanced out well. I wouldn't be against a buff to Benediction though.


That's the point though, WHM is a much better AoE healer. They heal the group much better than a SCH could ever hope too.

And again people are making assumptions that Astrologian will be like a WHM more than a SCH, or just something different that works well with both so thus WHM is out (?). I could easily say that Astrologian could come in and be the death of SCH, by being the strongest Single Target healer and they could have strong party buffs and a mitigation shield. Chances are they won't be like this, but I can still say it.

Saying SCHs are like "gods" is a HUGE exaggeration. If they are so much better than WHM then why are there so many more WHMs compared to SCHs running around? Mechanics? Shouldn't matter, because they are "gods".

Also, why would it be the death of either? If people are going to play it'll still be around. Look at Summoner right now. Its lacking and people don't like where its at right now, but its still around and people still use it even though there are better DPS(ie. all of them) currently.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

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You're replying to the same person who started a huge, contentious thread about whether or not Cleric Stance should be disabled for group PvE content; expecting a fair and reasonable assessment of how the healer jobs compare to one another is probably asking too much.

That probably isn't the nicest way to say it, but I'm not very sympathetic to people who go on about WHM's supposed MP problems (good WHM's don't have them under normal circumstances) and lack of ability compared to SCH (SCH may be able to split heal and off-DPS like crazy, but 300-550 upfront potency AoE heals to recover the raid in time to deal with the next mechanic? Not so much).

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

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Obviously you don't know what you are talking about.
t6 requier aoe healing (maybe not nowadays, difficulty lowered)
t7 requier aoe healing (maybe not nowadays, difficulty lowered)
t8 requier aoe healing (lowered)
t9 requier aoe healing (lowered)
t10 requier aoe healing
t11 require aoe healing
t12 require aoe healing
t13 require aoe healing
Please, compare Lustrate to cur2, not to bene ...
MP management is what make WHM fun to play ...
Maybe when you hit the real difficulty on coil you will be able to see that SCH and WHM are equal...

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

The only reason why White Mages aren't replaced is like said in the thread x 2 scholar don't work very well

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Double SCH is no more lacking than double PLD, yet whilst double PLD was pretty much the accepted standard for coil1, I'm yet to be asked to do a coil clear as double SCH. Strange given how 'superior' SCH is supposed to be?

*spoiler*

The reason you don't see progression groups running with 2x SCH is because the job is weak when it comes to AE healing, that little area where WHMs excel so well. If Astro comes along and turns out to be another mighty AE centric healer, then yes, WHM's might need to start worrying, but I highly doubt that's going to happen, The only thing that's fairly certain about the job in my book is that it's likely to be a stronger debuffer than SCH or WHM.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

Well there two reasons for this, first off the MP management of a White Mage is limited while a Scholar can run things without many MP issue not just because of the recast of our shroud but also because of the potency and because they have energy drain.

As for the bene. we have 2 unfair advantages vs the scholar lust. first off they get 3 lust every minute which is basically like a bene., and our recast is much higher than lust. And to top it off they don't have animation lag so if the tank is at 10% health they have a better chance of saving them with lust. than our bene.

And your also forgetting that Scholar has two healers when it comes to themselves and eos so they are basically gods when compared to white mages and anyone that thinks overwise is crazy because white mage will never be able to compete with a equal ilv scholar unless the battle requires a lot of AOE healing. The only reason why White Mages aren't replaced is like said in the thread x 2 scholar don't work very well and we only have 2 healing classes but with astrologian that could be the death of white mage.

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Lustrate is not benediction, it is cure 2. Try lustrate on a non tank. In final coil, scholars simply do not get the luxury of using every stack of aetherflow on lustrate, and shock horror, scholar in final coils has mana issues. Try having to dps stance dancing whilst heaing in final coils to push progress and see how much harder mana management can be on a sch when played fully optimally at end game.

Energy drain is a moot point, it is a scholar skill, every other skill that uses aetherflow charges in final coil is so much more significantly important that you will rarely use energy drain.

Scholars have to make a choice about which fairy to use in which situation, in final coils its usually selene>eos, this being the case its a scholar running without a healing buff, an aoe healing spell, an aoe party damage reduction spell and quite possibly, without the ability to manually cast selenes embrace. Saying that scholars are healing gods above whm due to having a fairy is disingenuous beyond belief.

Sch and whm, when played optimally, are as good as each other. I raid as sch, main whm. In a raid i am not so blind as to see what the whm is doing with their extremely powerful aoe heals and regen. This thread should have died off a long long long long long time ago. Far too many unbalanced arguments here of why healer X is better than healer Y. If one was truely so much more superior than the other, then raid groups would only be taking 2 of one type of healer into their raids......but they are not, and both are very very very good healers. Blinkers off people.....blinkers off.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

You're replying to the same person who started a huge, contentious thread about whether or not Cleric Stance should be disabled for group PvE content; expecting a fair and reasonable assessment of how the healer jobs compare to one another is probably asking too much.

That probably isn't the nicest way to say it, but I'm not very sympathetic to people who go on about WHM's supposed MP problems (good WHM's don't have them under normal circumstances) and lack of ability compared to SCH (SCH may be able to split heal and off-DPS like crazy, but 300-550 upfront potency AoE heals to recover the raid in time to deal with the next mechanic? Not so much).

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http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/54...ffc0_50x50.jpg

Oh. Is that who that is? I had no idea.

Ha. Well, that was a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

... and lack of ability compared to SCH (SCH may be able to split heal and off-DPS like crazy, but 300-550 upfront potency AoE heals to recover the raid in time to deal with the next mechanic? Not so much).

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What? Succor is an up front 150 potency heal, with a 150 shield. take that shield as preparing for disaster to come soon. Also the ability to mitigate 10% of the damage dealt from AoE with a sacred soil. Depending on how much damage the group took, that could act as another 150 potency ( around 5000 damage mitigated to 4500 from sacred soil). Along with the AoE being magic damage? Let's increase the groups magic defense to reduce it even FURTHER... I think both are quite good at AoE healing, especially with +30% and +20% whispering dawn acting like an AoE REGEN spell with divine seal.


Aside from your post Cynfael, I remember people saying good luck on T12 healing the AoE in that as a scholar or double scholar. Well, a scholar solo healed the whole fight. Scholar also solo healed Shiva EX 4 man. Where are the White Mage videos? Did I miss them or have there just not been any able to do it? I mean, since the white mage population is bigger, wouldn't more be trying to solo heal these?

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Originally Posted by DarkmoonVael

Lustrate is not benediction, it is cure 2.

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Lustrate is not a cure 2 either. It is a panic button that is used when someone dips low and needs to be topped up before incoming spike damage. Having three of these at your hand every Aetherflow is very very useful in scripted, PvE content.

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Originally Posted by Slib

I remember people saying good luck on T12 healing the AoE in that as a scholar or double scholar. Well, a scholar solo healed the whole fight.

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<key detail> The SCH solo heal was 3 Bennu's </key detail> thus the AE healing portion of phase 3 was trivialised to succor and forget status. Overall it's an encounter with a pretty low healing requirement providing people handle the mechanics right.

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Originally Posted by Slib

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Succor alone doesn't cut it as a massive AoE heal, and neither does Whispering Dawn. They are excellent tools when used appropriately, but they do not work the same way as Medica, Cure III, or even Medica II. A SCH flat out cannot equal a WHM in instant AoE HP restoration, and there are times when you need that AoE burst.

Sacred Soil isn't worth mentioning in this conversation; it's only relevant in situations where the incoming damage cannot be healed, and even then SCH tools aren't well suited to recovering a raid from 1% HP to full in moments.

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Originally Posted by Slib

What? Succor is an up front 150 potency heal, with a 150 shield. take that shield as preparing for disaster to come soon. Also the ability to mitigate 10% of the damage dealt from AoE with a sacred soil. Depending on how much damage the group took, that could act as another 150 potency ( around 5000 damage mitigated to 4500 from sacred soil). Along with the AoE being magic damage? Let's increase the groups magic defense to reduce it even FURTHER... I think both are quite good at AoE healing, especially with +30% and +20% whispering dawn acting like an AoE REGEN spell with divine seal.

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And yet despite all the 'potency' this and 'damage reduction' that, you neglect to mention the range, positioning, cooldown and charge limitations of all of these abilities as well as the time and GCDs required to get a Fey/Rouse/WD combo going whilst EoS is trying her hardest to spam embrace at the same time (And assuming that Selene isn't up of course). Try not to miss out the not so little details please <3

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

And yet despite all the 'potency' this and 'damage reduction' that, you neglect to mention the range, positioning, cooldown and charge limitations of all of these abilities as well as the time and GCDs required to get a Fey/Rouse/WD combo going whilst EoS is trying her hardest to spam embrace at the same time (And assuming that Selene isn't up of course). Try not to miss out the not so little details please <3

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Moving Eos to break embrace cast and having her cast something else is not that difficult, but also makes scholar harder to play, and more fun. Yes, she wants to cast embrace, but they are ways around it.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Succor alone doesn't cut it as a massive AoE heal, and neither does Whispering Dawn. They are excellent tools when used appropriately, but they do not work the same way as Medica, Cure III, or even Medica II. A SCH flat out cannot equal a WHM in instant AoE HP restoration, and there are times when you need that AoE burst.

Sacred Soil isn't worth mentioning in this conversation; it's only relevant in situations where the incoming damage cannot be healed, and even then SCH tools aren't well suited to recovering a raid from 1% HP to full in moments.

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They prevent damage overall which was what I was trying to get at. Damage Preventing will reduce future healing required. You are still getting EHPS from the succors for lets say, Mega Flare into a Rage of Bahamut. You can also have a sacred soil down for both hits too AND a breath on the tank also. That mitigation helps pick scholar up to the point where they can't burst heal like a White Mage. That is my point. If the damage is dealt and people need a pick me up ASAP then yes, white mage cure 3 is godlike. But, in most, if not all situations, a lot of damage prevention with a Whispering Dawn as an after effect of picking everyone up over time is highly effective.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Double SCH is no more lacking than double PLD, yet whilst double PLD was pretty much the accepted standard for coil1, I'm yet to be asked to do a coil clear as double SCH. Strange given how 'superior' SCH is supposed to be?

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To be honest, double SCH is the standard for BCoB as well. There is almost zero significant AoE damage between turns 1 to 5. 99.9% of all damage was on the tanks. This lead to PLD/PLD SCH/SCH parties being the optimal choices for BCoB. In fact this was the primary reason that SE added more AoE damage to SCoB and FCoB. They realized that there was a gross disparity between the healers if content isn't designed to play off their strengths, and BCoB lead to many WHM being sidelined.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

<key detail> The SCH solo heal was 3 Bennu's </key detail> thus the AE healing portion of phase 3 was trivialised to succor and forget status. Overall it's an encounter with a pretty low healing requirement providing people handle the mechanics right.

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Even with 4 bennus you'd get to ~ 11 stack on pheonix which isn't that bad to deal with as scholar alone. It's after the 12th stack is when **** starts to hit the fan.

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Originally Posted by Velox

To be honest, double SCH is the standard for BCoB as well. There is almost zero significant AoE damage between turns 1 to 5. 99.9% of all damage was on the tanks. This lead to PLD/PLD SCH/SCH parties being the optimal choices for BCoB. In fact this was the primary reason that SE added more AoE damage to SCoB and FCoB. They realized that there was a gross disparity between the healers if content isn't designed to play off their strengths, and BCoB lead to many WHM being sidelined.

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That's interesting. 2 PLD? Warrior supplies a stacking 10% damage reduction on the target...how did that not become better than having 2 PLD at the start?

Edit: By stacking I meant with Paladins Rage of Halone debuff it stacks with.

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Originally Posted by Slib

That's interesting. 2 PLD? Warrior supplies a stacking 10% damage reduction on the target...how did that not become better than having 2 PLD at the start?

Edit: By stacking I meant with Paladins Rage of Halone debuff it stacks with.

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Back when Binding Coil/the game was freshly released, Storm's Path merely healed the Warrior. Wasn't until 2.1 I believe that Storm's Path got a 10% outgoing damage reduction debuff applied to Storm's Path (though Bards could apply it through Rain of Death, but that was switched over to a 10% evasion drop instead with 2.1).

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Originally Posted by Slib

Moving Eos to break embrace cast and having her cast something else is not that difficult, but also makes scholar harder to play, and more fun. Yes, she wants to cast embrace, but they are ways around it.

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http://img2.finalfantasyxiv.com/f/54...ffc0_50x50.jpg

That wasn't her main point at all and you know it.

Sebazy was pointing out your gross negligence of everything else that comes, and goes, with all the abilities you mentioned. Like Aetherflow being used by multiple, important abilities. Cooldowns. The range, effectiveness, and duration of said abilities. Not only that but the fact that Eos is for healing, and if you have Selene out instead you aren't going to have access to all those Healy/damage reduction Fairy spells you listed. Just "moving" Eos isn't going to fix any of these points you neglect to look at.

These are all important to mention because you, and others, keep putting out "oh SCH can do this so there!" without correctly, and fully, comparing them to WHM.

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Originally Posted by Slib

They prevent damage overall which was what I was trying to get at. Damage Preventing will reduce future healing required. You are still getting EHPS from the succors for lets say, Mega Flare into a Rage of Bahamut. You can also have a sacred soil down for both hits too AND a breath on the tank also. That mitigation helps pick scholar up to the point where they can't burst heal like a White Mage. That is my point. If the damage is dealt and people need a pick me up ASAP then yes, white mage cure 3 is godlike. But, in most, if not all situations, a lot of damage prevention with a Whispering Dawn as an after effect of picking everyone up over time is highly effective.

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I'm very familiar with how SCH mitigation works, and there are plenty of situations where working with a WHM is way more efficient. There are good reasons why player max HP and the presence of a WHM are of concern in certain fights.

Edited because I'm not sure exactly what we're debating here. My main point is that there are obviously things that WHMs do better and/or differently than SCHs and that WHMs still don't need "fixing" beyond allowing Shroud to scale with Max MP going forward.