SE's most difinitive statement yet on parsers

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

What kind of organization hosting a race wouldn't have it timed? This is just a terrible analogy. Every MMO makes you feel like a hero, and almost all of them have built in parsers or app support. The people pointing out you are a bad DPS and saying they are parsing you are just harassing you, and they would be harassing players regardless of third party software.

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See this is the problem when you try to compare something like a video game with something like sprinting, when you look at it one way, it makes perfect sense, then when someone takes it to refute your point, it becomes a terrible analogy. Maybe there isn't any organization that would ban stopwatches, but if there was, using one would be cheating, and I can go outside and race someone, you don't need to time us to tell who won. See SE has said that using parsers is against the rules, cheating, so using them is against the rules, cheating. As for harassing players if you have a parser, you have numerical proof, without it, right or wrong, you are just talking.
You say that almost all MMOs have built in parsers or app support, well that is a useless argument, because this game states that using them is against ToS, if they change it in the future ok, but saying they will change it in the future doesn't ok the use of them now.

Teleporting

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Originally Posted by ispano

Would also be quicker

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than walking.

And using a bot crafts or harvests

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Originally Posted by ispano

for you

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and does it

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Originally Posted by ispano

more efficiently than a person

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Radar for hunts ? Not a big deal...after all,

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Originally Posted by ispano

all it does is compile large quantities of data

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to give you an edge on spawns.

Oh, and maybe you missed the part where it's forbidden to use 3rd party program. Thus...cheating

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

And this is where things are going to get fuzzy. IFF (not a typo, if and only if) it turns out they wish to crack down on parsers. How do they enforce it? Anyone who gets reported for it is now in trouble? No, that won't happen. They'll have to use some sort of metric to detect it. Of course detecting changes done to the contents of the \\Documents\My Games\FINAL FANTASY XIV - A Realm Reborn\ folder is going to result in many many false postitives. Especially since the log files share the same location as the screenshots.

And to go further on that. If they want to restrict that, do they restrict screenshots too? I mean log files and screenshots both share the following characteristics: They are both in the same folder. They are both output by the game. Neither are used by the game executable during play.

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If i recall correctly the first time a thread regarding SE's concerns on parsers was posted (during 2.0) the question initially came up in regards to a warning a player received for talking about one in game during the course of calling out the DPS (or lack thereof) of another player.

Obviously there is no way SE can know what you do or don't have installed client side without allowing the game to install rather intrusive software to scan your system (there are a few games that do this). However what they CAN do is review the in game chat logs should you be reported for harassment and clearly see if someone says "Well your DPS is X because this program says so" at which point action can be taken.

Those who played FFXI will remember similar discussions about the use of 3rd party programs that allowed you to parse data and see things like party member TP and the same rules generally applied, if there was enough in-game proof of a player speaking about or using one to harass another player then it was grounds for a GM to take action.

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

Also Parsers like the ones I have been describing are completely stand alone programs that do not need the game to be running (or even installed as the logs remain after uninstall) to function. In fact I don't even think the game can delete or alter those files itself without elevated priveledges in Windows

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SE is likely not to condone one 3rd party program over another regardless of how it functions until they add official addon support to the game, and even then those programs that they do approve will most likely be required to have features that meet a set of guidelines.

This allows them to control what they do and don't want the playerbase to have access to, at which point it can be inferred that any third party game related program that can be used detrimentally (see: to harass) or to gain advantage (see: exploit) will most likely fall under grounds for account action / termination.

This is very much a "Their house, their rules" scenario

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Originally Posted by Kaethra

I don't see the issue here. Whether I look at the log and count up the damage and divide by the time, or let a program or spreadsheet do it for me, whats the difference? Just like in your example with TS being the same as using a cellphone, or other means of comms.

Again I'm talking about non-overlayed, non-datamining means of parsing. Aka, using the logs. I don't advocate messing with actual installed files (in harddrive or RAM) or data in IP packets.

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Fundamentally i agree with you,

The players that have issues with simply parsing will likely have the same grievances against stopwatches or calculators, as parsing (strictly parsing only) is harmless in what it does as a tool of calculation. unfortunately players themselves are not as unbiased or objective as numbers are and the potential for harassment is a very real thing.

Now while i personally see that the benefits outweigh the detriments when it comes to this we're talking about the same company that once again has disallowed /tells in dungeons for similar reasons.

Ironically though it's hard not to find amusement in the many players who will rally out against the perceived "evils" of parsing out of a fear of being called out or dealing with other players, but will still reap the benefits of those that use them to determine things like optimal rotations or BiS gear setups.

If the perception of this is to change (and it most likely won't) the case will have to continue to be made for an in-game feature to allow us to see player performance (which I'll surely advocate for right along with anyone else).

But as far as 3rd party applications go in this case (parsing / data calculation) it would appear that their stance is clear.

You need parsers for a game that requires any sort of tight dps check.
Because you need data.
Because you need to maximize dps.
GW2 for example, did not need a parser.
This game does.

K.

"Requires", no less ?!
You realize a lot of people manage to play without using a parser, right ?

The person that said the parser is to help better each other made me laugh, so when someone doesn't meet your standards in the party kicking is helping them hahaha.

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

The person that said the parser is to help better each other made me laugh, so when someone doesn't meet your standards in the party kicking is helping them hahaha.

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Maybe if you harass them enough, they'll be disgusted of the game, quit and find a lot more interesting things to do with their life.
So...it's helping...from a certain point of view :p

The irony of this entire conversation is that a lot of the time you don't even need a parser to tell who is the dead weight DPS in a party and thus, those people are going to be singled out regardless of whether a parse fully confirms it or not.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

"Requires", no less ?!
You realize a lot of people manage to play without using a parser, right ?

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Yeah, and you realize that a lot of people (like yourself) don't do endgame raiding that has DPS checks too, right? If the game didn't have strict DPS checks people wouldn't use a parser, but it does, you just don't know about them.

Lol at this thread.

TThis is one of the reasons I'm taking a break from the game. To much fighting over this. I'm very anti parser for people who use it on other players. They can cause trouble. Though I had a friend who would parse for my group if we asked.

I almost started a long post.... But I'm stopping myself and going back to lurking XD

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Originally Posted by Crysten

The irony of this entire conversation is that a lot of the time you don't even need a parser to tell who is the dead weight DPS in a party and thus, those people are going to be singled out regardless of whether a parse fully confirms it or not.

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Thing is a lot of those dead weights stand more of a chance of being taken more serious and getting the motivation to being good. Especially when a lot of the entry raid bosses or getting to there is enough of an eye opener to get players regardless of role to take their character and group more serious.

Once you introduce parsers that privileged is neglected on players that can go from uncaring and bad to good because they are judged and it stays because those numbers are gonna be consistently associated with them.

I've seen these outcomes happen to many times that it's pretty laughable.

You don't need parsers to learn a rotation you do that as you progress from levels 1-50 and continue on playing. Rotations should come normally to you and if they don't putting a little time and effort into organizing your bars and even seeking advice doesn't come as harsh and demotivating as seeking BiS to dish out some irrational X value from a 3rd party program. Parsers are good at weeding out not at helping.

Parsers aren't there to set thresholds for the possibility of clearing content. Players don't want the possibility to kill the boss they want the absolutely necessity to clear it get their loot and be done with it.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Oh, and maybe you missed the part where it's forbidden to use 3rd party program. Thus...cheating

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No, just currently considered bannable. Doesn't make it cheating. Good to know you don't understand the difference.

So, let me ask you something else then. Will you still think parsing is cheating when a player makes an addon that does it once the API for addons is implemented?

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Originally Posted by HeroSamson

The person that said the parser is to help better each other made me laugh, so when someone doesn't meet your standards in the party kicking is helping them hahaha.

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So if someone in your group was holding the group back and refused to listen to any advice or anything, say a tank who doesn't use flash for aoe situations or something similar. You'd not kick them? Because the situation is basically the same, just that a tank's performance is far more transparent without a parser than a DD role.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Thing is a lot of those dead weights stand more of a chance of being taken more serious and getting the motivation to being good. Especially when a lot of the entry raid bosses or getting to there is enough of an eye opener to get players regardless of role to take their character and group more serious.

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Dude, you don't even do second coil, and haven't finished the first one. You have no idea why people even use parsers because you aren't even fighting the same fights. You really have no say in this argument since you lack the understanding of why people use them to begin with. You think leveling 1-50 is teaching people how to play their job 100% efficiently and you've never even been in a fight that requires people to be efficient.

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Originally Posted by Barimu

I don't think Yoshi-P has ever played anything other than WoW and GW2 because he praises them both as the greatest mmos he has ever played, but if he played 11 then he'd realize 11 was better than both of them

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He allegedly played Dark Age of Camelot, which was supposed to be the inspiration for front lines, but I don't see it.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Dude, you don't even do second coil, and haven't finished the first one.

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First of all I finished T5 a long time ago. Second of all I'm done caring about coil and its drama.

I want to enjoy the game not be stressed about people whining about petty digital gear.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

You have no idea why people even use parsers.

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FFXIV ARR sure is my first MMO ever. Parsers were invented yesterday. You sure told me.

I look forward to when native addon support comes out, around the end of the year iirc. Gonna upset a lot of people when parsers are legit and they can't get carried anymore :3

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Originally Posted by Ihm

I look forward to when native addon support comes out, around the end of the year iirc. Gonna upset a lot of people when parsers are legit and they can't get carried anymore :3

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Parsers will stop people from selling coil clears? My sides wont stop.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Will you still think parsing is cheating when a player makes an addon that does it once the API for addons is implemented?

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"Parsing" is not cheating. 3rd party program is. Good to know you don't understand the difference.
And IF they implement it, Yoshi mentionned that it wouldn't be available in dungeons or raids specifically to avoid people from...hmmm..."helping" each other.

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Originally Posted by ispano

So if someone in your group was holding the group back and refused to listen to any advice or anything, say a tank who doesn't use flash for aoe situations or something similar.

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You compare people that don't know how to tank well to people that don't have the stuff that suits you. Basically you'd take a moron with a relic over the best player using Garuda weapon.
Exactly how people would kick you for joining Titan HM without a relic even before lauching the Duty Finder back in the days.

And about your little semantic loophole about "cheating", here's a glimpse of the user agreement:
2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any unauthorized cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software or hardware designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay.

"2.1 Cheating and Botting. You may not create or use any unauthorized cheats, bots, automation software, hacks, mods or any other unauthorized software or hardware designed to modify the Game and gameplay. In addition, you may not take advantage of game system bugs and exploits during gameplay."
Parsers are not cheats, bots, automation software, hacks or mods and they don't modify the game or gameplay. They work outside of the game to sort data relating to damage and present it in an easy to read format.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Dude, you don't even do second coil, and haven't finished the first one. You have no idea why people even use parsers because you aren't even fighting the same fights.

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There is nothing in this game you couldn't do without a static group, you don't need a parser for that but it does help and identify problems within your team and improve it. But that's not where they're being used now is it? Seriously who uses a parser in a pug group where the very idea of pug is to form a party of all skill levels and go. If people are so butt hurt about not being able to use parsers Bloody keep a lid on it and say nothing at all about them and keep them off the social radar ffs and in your own private circles where they belong and why they were created for.

This thread is actually sickening.
Maybe you people might be better off with a time machine that would send you to the dark ages.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

"2.1 Cheating and Botting... mods or any other unauthorized software or hardware designed to modify the Game and gameplay...

Parsers are not cheats, bots, automation software, hacks or mods and they don't modify the game or gameplay. They work outside of the game to sort data relating to damage and present it in an easy to read format.

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And yet there they are listed in the ToA section referred as "Cheating or Botting" (2.1) nullifying your point of view in SE's mind. While I personally don't care if people use them or not, using a quote that invalidates your point before you even make it (at least in the eyes of the people running the game) kind of seems odd doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by AzakaTonnerre

And yet there they are listed in the ToA section referred as "Cheating or Botting" (2.1) nullifying your point of view in SE's mind. While I personally don't care if people use them or not, using a quote that invalidates your point before you even make it (at least in the eyes of the people running the game) kind of seems odd doesn't it?

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Actually they are just listed as third party software, they were previously just in a grey area. I also didn't bring that line up, the poster above me had and I just quoted him without using the quote function so I wouldnt have to go back and edit the post to fit the char limit

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Yeah, and you realize that a lot of people (like yourself) don't do endgame raiding that has DPS checks too, right? If the game didn't have strict DPS checks people wouldn't use a parser, but it does, you just don't know about them.

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You mean like everyone claimed that Turn 4 was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?
Or that Turn 5 was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?
Or maybe that Titan HM was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?

Sorry for not being elite enough for you, but when you'll be banned promoting parser that much, I'll still be able to do endgame raiding.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You mean like everyone claimed that Turn 4 was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?
Or that Turn 5 was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?
Or maybe that Titan HM was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?

Sorry for not being elite enough for you, but when you'll be banned promoting parser that much, I'll still be able to do endgame raiding.

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Back when they were relevant and on the bleeding edge of content yes, they were very strict DPS checks that were solved by analysing what changes needed to be made.
Please, don't act as if now that they're easy they always have been. Posts like this prove you people are so far from knowing what you're talking about you shouldn't be given an opinion.

Also, you don't end game raid. Running Soldiery dungeons is not end game raiding.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You mean like everyone claimed that Turn 4 was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?
Or that Turn 5 was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?
Or maybe that Titan HM was a strict DPS check and required a parser ?

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As content gets older it gets easier thanks to nerfs/echo/higher gear. The same will happen (and has already somewhat) with current content and future content. Turn 8 was at 2.3s launch a strict DPS check, and for those are entering the Turn for the first time, probably still is depending how much gear they have gotten from ST and Hunts, but for those groups who are now very experienced in the turn and have around full 110 should be killing T8 out a good few minutes before his enrage hits.

In other news.

Parsers are handy tools and if used, should be used as such, if they are being used for harassing other players, then the player should be reported for harassment, not for using a parser.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Back when they were relevant and on the bleeding edge of content yes, they were very strict DPS checks that were solved by analysing what changes needed to be made.
Please, don't act as if now that they're easy they always have been. Posts like this prove you people are so far from knowing what you're talking about you shouldn't be given an opinion.

Also, you don't end game raid. Running Soldiery dungeons is not end game raiding.

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Because you clearly know when I've done all this...

After all, I don't care...cheat all you want, justify it however you want, continue to look down on people that aren't elitist enough for you.
I'm doing all I can to not play with people like you, thus I can still enjoy the game how I want.

By the way, do you realize, that you promote something that was clearly forbidden by Square-Enix and then looking down on people that chose to play the game legit by NOT doing this ? With everything you said, either you directly use a parser and don't care about the risk of being banned (Since your character and server are clearly named on the forum), or you play legit and then, you should follow your own advice to not give an opinion about something you don't actually do.

If they added some ingame parser, there wont be need for these statements anymore. -_-
Anyways I dont use it.. I just ask people if my damage is ok. :D

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Because you clearly know when I've done all this...

After all, I don't care...cheat all you want, justify it however you want, continue to look down on people that aren't elitist enough for you.
I'm doing all I can to not play with people like you, thus I can still enjoy the game how I want.

By the way, do you realize, that you promote something that was clearly forbidden by Square-Enix and then looking down on people that chose to play the game legit by NOT doing this ? With everything you said, either you directly use a parser and don't care about the risk of being banned (Since your character and server are clearly named on the forum), or you play legit and then, you should follow your own advice to not give an opinion about something you don't actually do.

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I don't look down upon you for not parsing. I look down upon you for ignoring all the benefits and disregarding them so easily. You can hate them, dislike them all you want, but you should still accept that their advantages are huge to those that choose to use them properly.

Also, you should stop accusing everyone who argues against you of parsing. That's like saying everyone who votes Republican hates gays.

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Originally Posted by SongJoohee

As content gets older it gets easier thanks to nerfs/echo/higher gear. The same will happen (and has already somewhat) with current content and future content. Turn 8 was at 2.3s launch a strict DPS check, and for those are entering the Turn for the first time, probably still is depending how much gear they have gotten from ST and Hunts, but for those groups who are now very experienced in the turn and have around full 110 should be killing T8 out a good few minutes before his enrage hits.

In other news.

Parsers are handy tools and if used, should be used as such, if they are being used for harassing other players, then the player should be reported for harassment, not for using a parser.

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Sadly, this is too much for some people to understand.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Go ask a cop if jaywalking is legal.

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He said it was. (I don't live in the US)

Different situations always exist.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

I don't look down upon you for not parsing. I look down upon you for ignoring all the benefits and disregarding them so easily. You can hate them, dislike them all you want, but you should still accept that their advantages are huge to those that choose to use them properly.

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Actually, you didn't read any of my post. Never did I disregard the benefits of parsing. I even made a specific statement that there's nothing wrong in "parsing", just "parsing with a 3rd party program". And no benefit could justify something that is clearly forbidden by Square-Enix. What I don't like too is those who think that a parser is mandatory, and that without it, you're automatically a "bad" player.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

Also, you should stop accusing everyone who argues against you of parsing. That's like saying everyone who votes Republican hates gays.

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Wow, that's an out of topic comparison you got there...maybe you should have said "It's like saying everyone who tries to prove you that gays are bad people hates gay"

And I'm pretty sure I wrote :

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

either you directly use a parser and don't care about the risk of being banned (Since your character and server are clearly named on the forum), or you play legit and then, you should follow your own advice to not give an opinion about something you don't actually do.

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You chose the first part.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

I look down upon you for ignoring all the benefits and disregarding them so easily.

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Everything thing that is wrong with people that defend parsers ever.

If you know those so called benefits, then explain to me what's so hard about incorporating those so called benefits without the use of parsers? Oh wait you can't. Yet I do see a lot of that anti-social aspect that is the offense in shunning such a 3rd party tool.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, you didn't read any of my post. Never did I disregard the benefits of parsing. I even made a specific statement that there's nothing wrong in "parsing", just "parsing with a 3rd party program". And no benefit could justify something that is clearly forbidden by Square-Enix. What I don't like too is those who think that a parser is mandatory, and that without it, you're automatically a "bad" player.

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I'll give you the "illegal" part, but even so the way you form your posts is incredibly bias, and a lot of people in this thread have been outright ignoringt eh benefits that parsing brings.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

And I'm pretty sure I wrote :

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

either you directly use a parser and don't care about the risk of being banned (Since your character and server are clearly named on the forum), or you play legit and then, you should follow your own advice to not give an opinion about something you don't actually do.

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You chose the first part.

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You pretty much misunderstood the context there. I said you shouldn't be giving your opinion because you were posting incredibly misinformed things about end game content within the game, not about parsing itself. So I completely disregarded that paragraph completely.
There's also a third option; people who believe parsers bring huge benefits to the end game community and want to show SE that the entire community isn't anti-parser. With a mod API apparently in the works (even though we've heard nothing about it since launch, I fear that the current negativity on the forums would put such a thing in jeopardy.

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Originally Posted by Gormogon

Everything thing that is wrong with people that defend parsers ever.

If you know those so called benefits, then explain to me what's so hard about incorporating those so called benefits without the use of parsers? Oh wait you can't. Yet I do see a lot of that anti-social aspect that is the offense in shunning such a 3rd party tool.

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Disregard parsers in this argument for a moment.
Imagine it was another scenario. Imagine it was something that pretty much only had benefits to those that used it. Shunning it and disregarding its benefits completely would be a stupid thing to do, right? That's pretty much how I see it, you can hate something, but you should still give credit to the benefits it yields. I hate Justin Beiber, but I still admit he was a great artist.

As for your other argument: You can't, exactly. So we have to work with what we can, legal or not at times. But with a mod tool around the corner, we'll be able to do that. The current attitude on the forums puts all that at risk. You clearly are biased against the idea of parsers in general, not the illegality of them like Reynhart, so I'm going no further with this reply to you before you change your tune (again).

The obvious answer is just to eliminate the combat log entirely. /facepalm (that's how ridiculous this argument has gotten.)

Funnily enough I don't see anyone complaining using sites like xivdb or erozapedia, which also takes data from the game and mines it to give players an advantage.

Can't be against one thing and for the other kids. Parsers don't do much but give you the same information you can figure out yourself (though would take much more time).

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

As for your other argument: You can't, exactly.

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Actually I can.

I was doing triple flare before it was a thing (even use Int pots as well when it would be more appropriate over triple flare).
I enjoyed using AM's on Demon Wall/Anataboga(?)/Ifrit/Garuda/etc and Leviathan before it was ever a thing.

If Dragoon's had Wyvern pets I would be using Str pots and would be using jumps as punishment and not as part of the rotation when there's bosses like Titan/Leviathan.

Playing the game and understanding your toolkit before diving into a rotation isn't a hard thing to grasp. Which like I said before an avg threshold will always be more import than seeking a consist max dps value. Those parsers that keep on edging "muh dps" is the double edge sword of dpsers since they become obsessed with numbers and ignore mechanics to keep their numbers high. Since it will enforced the mentality on DD players, "who cares if I died during the fight and we wiped because of me. My DPS broke a world record".

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

I'll give you the "illegal" part, but even so the way you form your posts is incredibly bias, and a lot of people in this thread have been outright ignoringt eh benefits that parsing brings.

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As biased as "FFXIV requires parsing". I had all my relics before 2.1. I cleared Turn 4 before 2.2, and all those without any parsing tools. And I've seen very good players with average stuff, that would clearly lost a pure DPS but managed to dodge every mechanic of Titan.

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

You pretty much misunderstood the context there. I said you shouldn't be giving your opinion because you were posting incredibly misinformed things about end game content within the game, not about parsing itself. So I completely disregarded that paragraph completely.

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Again, I've done endgame content in 2.0 and 2.1, specifically avoiding "post your DPS"-people or "one mistake and we'll kick you"-people. I've trained several members in my FC so that they manage to win content while still enjoying the game. My opinion is based on this way of playing the game, that didn't prevent me to clear early endgame. And like someone said, parse-required-mentality started even before 2.0

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Originally Posted by saeedaisspecial

There's also a third option; people who believe parsers bring huge benefits to the end game community and want to show SE that the entire community isn't anti-parser. With a mod API apparently in the works (even though we've heard nothing about it since launch, I fear that the current negativity on the forums would put such a thing in jeopardy.

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Actually, I'm aware that parsing can be interesting. When my FC leader did an intervew at Japan Expo in France, I even gave him a suggestion about implementing a parser on training dolls which he asked Yoshida. I thought that by doing this, people can work a min-max build when choosing stuff without the fear of being harassed in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

"Parsing" is not cheating. 3rd party program is. Good to know you don't understand the difference.
And IF they implement it, Yoshi mentionned that it wouldn't be available in dungeons or raids specifically to avoid people from...hmmm..."helping" each other.

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I said a player made parser/meter, not something made by SE.

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Originally Posted by ispano

I said a player made parser/meter, not something made by SE.

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Since Yoshi has a clear view of parsing tools and how they are used to harass people (sometimes), I don't see him changing the user agreement to make it legal.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Since Yoshi has a clear view of parsing tools and how they are used to harass people (sometimes), I don't see him changing the user agreement to make it legal.

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Well, that's the thing. He talked about addons fairly recently. And one of his comments was that they would have access to data the client has access to, such as damage and healing data. So, yeah, I do see it happening.