So resetting's against the rules now?

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

@ Appleh4x AKA Aka Kistune,

For your own reference, I'll just quote an earlier post of mine:



Which then leads to this:



In short, the GMs would prefer you not reset the hunt at for, for any intent because though you may perceive it as good, you are still affecting the game play of others and you yourself are risking suspension / banning for doing such action.

The GMs would prefer you do not reset at all because they would rather not see you risk getting suspended despite good intentions.

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He's merely saying that you CAN report people for pulling early, but it doesn't mean they will be punished or were even in the wrong:

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

When discussing grief tactics, there is one important detail that is needed to determine that an action was a violation of the user agreement. That detail is the intent of the customer as determined by a GM. Because of this, while any suspected grief tactics violation can (and should) be reported to a GM, only after a GM completes their investigation will a decision be made about if there was a violation.

The intent of the customer is important, since this determines if they are trying to disrupt the game play of other customers, or just trying to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

from the patch notes "although the Rank S maximum HP level was already intended for multiple parties, we have further raised the necessary number to require even more parties.
Similar to Odin and Behemoth."

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Ok, that's fine, but in my opinion re-setting is still unfair in any case. If the group wants to have a go at taking down the enemy with less that's their choice. It's their own risk, and they don't have to adhere to another persons ideals of community. While I understand your sentiment is good, you can't force that on people. Ultimately, think of players like me that just want to clear one hunt a week for my elite bill, but it's very difficult to do because of the amount of people greedily farming huge amounts of seals and re-setting the mobs I found first.

I'll repeat however, that I blame the design more than the players who chose farming hunts - they should cap tomes or simply limit rewards to those who have the weekly bill.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Except you specifically mentioned playing solo and with small groups of friends

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Except this is exactly what I said: If I wanna hunt alone, I do it alone, if I do it with friends, I do it with friends.

Did you even see my conditional IF in my response?
IF I want to play solo.
IF I want to go with a party.
IF I want to go with a whole FC.
IF I want to go with a LS.

Yeah, because since I want to choose anytime with who and how many people I tag along any given time makes any difference and means I'm allowed to play an MMO or not. Quit your bickering already. I play the game I paid for however I want, and if you grief me in the process, you're getting reported.

When a group has claimed a Hunt Mark and another group walks in, takes over the hate of the target with the intent to reset it, that’s “stealing”. No matter how you phrase it.

The group which has claimed the target has the right to kill it. If the group is willing to wait for more people to arrive, well… Kudo’s to them. But, they are not required to do so.

If they want to kill the hunt with a light party of their own, that’s their choice. If other groups arrive after the mob has been claimed, then they were too late. You can join in on the battle and kill it together, but resetting it so that the people who just arrived (or are still on their way) can get the full credit for it? That’s not what i call “Fair Play” or “Playing together”. That’s just plain “stealing” from the party that claimed it and stealing is bad, mmkay?

If i arrive in a zone where a Hunt Mark is up and the Mark is dead before i get there, then that’s on me. Not the person who pulled it. I was simply not at the right place at the right time.

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Originally Posted by Velo_Vandore

Ok, that's fine, but in my opinion re-setting is still unfair in any case. If the group wants to have a go at taking down the enemy with less that's their choice. It's their own risk, and they don't have to adhere to another persons ideals of community. While I understand your sentiment is good, you can't force that on people. Ultimately, think of players like me that just want to clear one hunt a week for my elite bill, but it's very difficult to do because of the amount of people greedily farming huge amounts of seals and re-setting the mobs I found first.

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You realize that by wanting to take the hunt on alone it makes you more greedy than if you shared with other people? Not sharing = greedy, sharing = not greedy; we learn this at a very young age. You should just shout "invite" in the zone when the mob is up and you'll get in a group ASAP, get your bill completed, and be on your way.

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Originally Posted by Eckhart

Except this is exactly what I said: If I wanna hunt alone, I do it alone, if I do it with friends, I do it with friends.

Did you even see my conditional IF in my response?


Yeah, because since I want to choose anytime with who and how many people I tag along any given time makes any difference and means I'm allowed to play an MMO or not. Quit your bickering already. I play the game I paid for however I want, and if you grief me in the process, you're getting reported.

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Your attitude and words in this thread don't convey the message that you play with many people in a friendly manner in this game. The people sharing the hunts also pay, and you pulling early cuts into the amount of progress those players can make with their play time. Early pulls are more theft than resetting, especially if you didn't find the mob (judging from your posts you clearly aren't the person finding hunts either, maybe one or two ever lol.)

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

You realize that by wanting to take the hunt on alone it makes you more greedy than if you shared with other people? Not sharing = greedy, sharing = not greedy; we learn this at a very young age. You should just shout "invite" in the zone when the mob is up and you'll get in a group ASAP, get your bill completed, and be on your way.

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Sure, because you apply thsoe rules to everything in life. I MUST share my girlfriend with all the guys I meet, because you know... I'm greedy otherwise.

You can't apply that kind of logic to a HUNTING GAME MECHANIC.

HUNT = FINDERS KEEPERS.

The FUN of the system is actually finding it, and KILLING IT. Not farming it like a freaking zombie army. Lost a mark, suck it up, move on the the next. simple.

Except I play as my OWN life and time lets me. If I find a mob and I want to kill it I do it. If you are gonna cry because I don't let the server know it, you know, cry some more because Finders keepers mechanic is built that way. And I dont need your help for B's or A's.

If you want to keep playing the Messiah and reseting for everyone in your server just so they tell you how awesome you are in a game, and you share a lot more power to you mate. If you are griefing people and you are reported, and eventually banned, I hope you suck it up and move on, don't want to see you in theseforums saying OMG I WAS BANNED I THOUGHT INTENTIONS SAVED ME FROM IT!

'cause you got the post of the GM totally wrong. Resetting is reportable, and intentions it's just one of many factors that decide wether you are being bad or not, not the only one, which is what you are not understanding all along.

From the very beginning I've failed to see how resetting a B-rank mob being fought by a small group is in any way justified. These marks are meant for small parties, and when someone runs in and resets the mob so that their whole linkshell can get there & the smaller party loses claim (and part of their reward), it's definitely harrassment. No question about it.

"Get into a bigger group" is not the answer. It's about being able to play the game as it's meant to be played. I'm glad the GM's have spoken up about this.

Also, it's called "the Hunt". In a hunt, you sometimes find your mark, and other times not. It's very simple. The people who find a hunt mark should be able to claim it without others starting to shout obscenities and demanding a reset. That's just weird.

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Originally Posted by Eckhart

Sure, because you apply thsoe rules to everything in life. I MUST share my girlfriend with all the guys I meet, because you know... I'm greedy otherwise.

You can't apply that kind of logic to a HUNTING GAME MECHANIC.

HUNT = FINDERS KEEPERS.

The FUN of the system is actually finding it, and KILLING IT. Not farming it like a freaking zombie army. Lost a mark, suck it up, move on the the next. simple.

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If you monopolize 100% of your girlfriend's time and don't let her talk to or be around other people which would be the appropriate way to share then you are doing the whole dating thing wrong. You can totally apply sharing to a MMO open world mechanic that literally everyone has the ability to equally benefit from if shared. Actually, it's probably the most basic and easy thing to share because if you do it correctly you don't lose anything by sharing, and end up benefiting more people who also don't lose anything.

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Originally Posted by Neria

From the very beginning I've failed to see how resetting a B-rank mob being fought by a small group is in any way justified. These marks are meant for small parties, and when someone runs in and resets the mob so that their whole linkshell can get there & the smaller party loses claim (and part of their reward), it's definitely harrassment. No question about it.

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If you're upset about B ranks then you aren't even hunting right. B rank literally aren't even worth the effort since they can't drop logs, give 1/4 the credit of As and melt in 2 seconds to even small groups. Go for the big fish and you'll be rewarded



Post limit reached:

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Originally Posted by Velo_Vandore

Thanks for the definition :/

I've never received the full reward for a hunt but I'm not an active hunter. I understand I can get a better chance at the full reward by joining a party and spamming medica or something, but that's a ridiculous way to play in my opinion when nobody needs heals. I would rather engage the enemy with a smaller group and enjoy playing in a more engaging way. You may think it's selfish but some players value actual gameplay over rewards for doing essentially nothing.

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Fates work the same way, blame SE for how they give you points not me.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

You realize that by wanting to take the hunt on alone it makes you more greedy than if you shared with other people? Not sharing = greedy, sharing = not greedy; we learn this at a very young age. You should just shout "invite" in the zone when the mob is up and you'll get in a group ASAP, get your bill completed, and be on your way.

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Thanks for the definition :/

I've never received the full reward for a hunt but I'm not an active hunter. I understand I can get a better chance at the full reward by joining a party and spamming medica or something, but that's a ridiculous way to play in my opinion when nobody needs heals. I would rather engage the enemy with a smaller group and enjoy playing in a more engaging way. You may think it's selfish but some players value actual gameplay over rewards for doing essentially nothing.

If you engage before people arrive you will not be reprimanded for griefing, but if you re-set the mob you can. That's the way it is and should be.

Now you finally made a point. You can share it and everyone can take profit from it.

But now you must accept the other side of the coin, we are NOT obliged to share it, and by rightfully not doing it, I'm not greedy nor a bad person, because it's a freaking hunting game.

And by the way, I play with many people in the game on a daily basis, just because my anger words directed to you because you still won't grasp a different side of the coin, even after a GM stated it, does not mean I'm a loner, that I don't belong here, only playing siingle players, because, that's discriminatory to say the least, for you to say something like that.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

If you monopolize 100% of your girlfriend's time and don't let her talk to or be around other people which would be the appropriate way to share then you are doing the whole dating thing wrong.

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Except there's a difference between not sharing your girlfriend (as in, love and you know what else), and invalidating her freedom.
And obviously I was referring to the former, but you brought up the latter, for the sake of your flawed argument.

And by the way, let us choose if B's are useless or not, for those of us who don't want to play the zombie-fest game, we enjoy killing B's without someone resseting it.

Bs spawn every hour, what's the rush? If you can help kill an A rank, yay! If not, it'll be back later...
(caveat: Never seen anyone reset a mark on my server... >.>' )

eta: In case anyone is wondering why I commented at all...
Is the root of the problem that people are afraid of what other people will think or say about them? Hunts are the fastest way to myth (for weapon upgrade), sol (gear/alt gear), and oil/sands to upgrade weathered gear. What is driving people to be so horrible in hunts that they reset/"pull early"/grief/report and otherwise harass everyone but their friends? (And I wonder if people are losing "friends" over this.) You don't have to have everything at top level for any content, so the only reason I see people panicking if they don't get hunt credit is for bragging rights or to make sure that others don't pick on them for having "lesser" gear. Just trying to understand the herd mentality here...

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

He's merely saying that you CAN report people for pulling early, but it doesn't mean they will be punished or were even in the wrong:

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While I understand your reasoning is for "the greater good", I am letting you know that the GMs do not care for this "greater good", instead they care about the fact that your actions may or may not be hampering the enjoyment of other players.

Hypothetical situation: S-Rank has spawned, everyone gets together, you pull. Someone calls for a reset, and in your good nature intent, you reset the mob in order to help these additional two-three parties their credits. HOWEVER, in the mean time, because of graphical issues of the mob disappearing or perhaps because the player itself might've died and was having issues getting a raise due to them being untargetable by their party, ten players receive no credit when they would've normally been able to receive it. You have now grief-ed those ten players. Five people report you for grief-ing.

Let's break this down.

Intent: You intended to reset the mob to assist other players in getting credit for the kill. This was deliberate on your end to help serve "the greater good"
Result: Ninety players got full credit. Ten other players were unable to get full credit for their kill when they would normally be able to until you resetted the mob and they couldn't recover fast enough / see the mob to rebuild their contribution.
Investigation: GMs see you have a history of resetting mobs and thus potentially hampering the gameplay of other players

I would like to reiterate the fact that the GMs do not care about "the greater good". They have to treat all paying customers equally. Thus, your actions have now caused X amount of people to have their enjoyment compromised with your intent to reset for the mob for more people can get their contribution.

Speaking of resetting to assist more players on your server is not an aegis for breaking the ToS and grief-ing other players. This is why Enkrateia spoke of this:

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

In light of that external analysis, your claimed intent may not be considered the actual intent at the end of the investigation.

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If you happen to get a GM who just happened to have a bad day and they don't want to listen to your words and instead see your own actions, then you are risking a warning / suspension / ban for the greater good of the server population. If you understand this risk and willingly take it, then there is not much more to say about it.

Just one last emphasis for you just to be clear you understand that what you do risks the ire of the GM team:

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Originally Posted by Enkrateia

However, that being said, the reality of these intentions have been pointed out in this thread by others: by intentionally resetting a hunt mark, you have chosen to interfere with the game play of other customers.

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I understand resetting for people still coming, but it can be -supremely- unfair to the people already engaged in the fight. I was in a hunting group and we were the first to find the A mark in Coerthas. We all gathered, and to be good, we called it out to all our linkshells and waited. We waited maybe 5 minutes, a good crowd gathered, and we pulled.

After we fought it, someone yanked aggro away from us and reset the mob and we lost full credit because of that. And can you really tell me that it was totally fair to us, and all of our friends and linkshell mates who hurried over, that we lose full credit because of the resetting?

Could have not said it better Ghishlain. I'm not the type to write things so concisely and well written, I kind of explode in rage when people that are obviously abusing the system and making others pay, thinking they are doing the correct thing, because they just won't listen.

People ultimately are going argue back and forth regarding whether or not resetting is *morally* right or wrong, regardless (key-word) whether or not it's against SquareEnix's ToS for the game or against their official stance on the issue as a company. Additionally it should be noted that certainly not that many people actually read the forums [especially non-stickied threads that will ultimately be buried]. Basically, until action is taken and the fundamental mechanics of the hunt are redesigned ... this will never be truly-resolved in terms of people who're going to take and assess their actions on their own perceived principles & what they believe to be right. Aka, it's going to be a perpetual point of issue between players and constant source of violations of the ToS...

I personally feel that this is a EXTREMELY unhealthy and contention-prone situation for the community, brought on primarily by the mechanics / implementation more than anything else (such as "players"). That people who believe they're helping the community are even getting into a situation where players feel the need to report them, or vice versa for the whole "premature-pull", "early-pull", or whatever-you-feel-like-calling-it concept (heard of plenty of people being reported for this too) ... this all just shouldn't be happening to begin with.

--That all said, I don't see it as an issue / worth arguing whether or not each side is valid, justifiable, etc. It's simply irrelevant as there exist people who perceive these sides to be morally right / wrong [again, ignoring any clear-cut definition(s) of infractions of the ToS]. Even if SquareEnix clearly defines acceptable behaviors for the hunt (*say, stating it in the game itself that resets aren't permissible*), people will still feel the desire to (and probably will) do it anyway...

[I'm not here to argue morality]. I would however, like to see this permanently resolved for the sake of the community's continued unity / for the game to be a pleasant place for all players.




There's already been some good suggestions within this thread, such as Giantbane's:

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Bare minimum solution is to not reset contribution on reset. I can see little to no downside in doing this.

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Or (as also has been suggested in several threads):

Changing the mob behavior such that resetting isn't possible, by having the mob simply move on to the next person in the threat-list / wiping enmity of the person that ran away. Basically resetting the monster if and only if the number of players on its threat-list reaches zero.


However, I'm inclined to think that people will simply shift their arguments to the whole "early-pull" / "not-waiting" if this is done, and or still become agitated with the need to hang around if resets are permitted (with contribution not being lost). -- [eg, inability to move onto another hunt-mob that they're aware of]

Perhaps as a compromise, the ability to reset FATEs AND Hunt mobs can be done away with (should be fixed for FATE's regardless of this). In trade, some minimum delay can be imposed / godmode grace period before a hunt mob can be harmed. Grace period becomes the minimum wait-time, people can engage their found hunt-mob immediately and begin building enmity / contribution ... nobody can reset, if people don't get there intime, the initial puller cannot be blamed as there was an imposed grace-period already. Solo players perhaps have the entire grace-period to attempt to build contribution (hunt-mobs live for a minimum time regardless participation), and therefore get stronger odds at getting gold.

NOTE: This compromise still permits a group of players (or solo player) to NOT announce a hunt-mob (their right), if they so choose. If noone else finds it intime (before the grace-period expires), so be it. At least hopefully, people not making it there intime understand that the mob was up for at least this designated period of time.


Unfortunately this still doesn't do anything about the "zerg" that some people are trying to avoid, if people call in their friends, and their friends have a period to get there. Yet, given people already reset bosses (hence causing this entire thread's topic), I fail to see how this could possibly make things any worse.

That the zerg is a problem, such as in exceeding the visible object count / poor performance / etc etc. This is something that can be addressed with an addition to the client to automatically hide everyone other than your team (optional) ... or to have an ability to specify a player-limit.

Sorting and prioritizing rendering would be nice, and a good start to guarantee the hunt mob can be seen and targeted. Still, that won't help people whenever their game is running at say 4fps from the number of players on the screen.


So, that's my plea to SquareEnix. Please don't let your initial HP adjustment of the hunts be your only major address.

--Don't blame the players, find the root of the contention and rectify it with some mechanics driven, enforced, compromise that promotes prosperity of the game and eliminates unnecessary hatred within the community.

We know the problem it's actually in the system, not the players RaineMagus, at least I do. But in the end, what's happening at the moment is that the majority of players is taking an unhealthy advantage, and griefing over a minority. True, it's a minority compared to the zerg, but players nonetheless, that rightfully should be able to play the game on the same ground based on the system mechanics, not imposed rules of some factions of players just so they are "messiahs".

And until the system it's fixed, it's going to be happening again and time again, and that's why this topic was brought up. Looking for a GM answer of what's right and wrong until they fix the system, and we got our answer.

Don't reset, simple as that.

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Originally Posted by Eckhart

We know the problem it's actually in the system, not the players RaineMagus, at least I do. But in the end, what's happening at the moment is that the majority of players is taking an unhealthy advantage, and griefing over a minority. True, it's a minority compared to the zerg, but players nonetheless, that rightfully should be able to play the game on the same ground based on the system mechanics, not imposed rules of some factions of players just so they are "messiahs".

And until the system it's fixed, it's going to be happening again and time again, and that's why this topic was brought up. Looking for a GM answer of what's right and wrong until they fix the system, and we got our answer.

Don't reset, simple as that.

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Absolutely, and it's good to hear other people say that their beef isn't directed necessarily at the playerbase.

SquareEnix should however make an additional-effort (beyond this forum post, such as on lodestone) if that's their ultimate decision ... and furthermore make this a priority to fix in order to 'minimize' perceived grief by both groups of people in the meantime. The only party that can ultimately put an end to this, hopefully everyone agrees is SquareEnix and thus will respect their decision with the promise of, or outlining of, further planned action.

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Originally Posted by RaineMagus

Absolutely, and it's good to hear other people say that their beef isn't directed necessarily at the playerbase.

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Of course, If I ever go hunting, for example, and I arrive late to that B, A or S, well it's a hunting game, I lost my chance, act like the grown up I am and move on.

But if I'm with some friends and the B or A I found is 50% and someone resets, blood simply boils, that can't be remedied.

I think there's many people that post in these forums that have very good feedback on how to improve the system and I cross my fingers SE staff is reading closely all the suggestions if they haven't made a decision yet.

I vote for rooting the mob in place once it's been tagged. Can't reset it then! I really see no problems with the hunts. If you don't make it in time, you didn't react fast enough or got the information late. Maybe try looking yourself? I've only missed a few that were B ranks because I didn't react fast enough or got the information too late. Not a big deal, they spawn again, it's not like I'll never see another hunt target in my life...well...unless I just drop dead I guess?

Square Enix doesn't care, nothing will be done, I don't know why these threads even keep popping up. It's like Atma, chocobo raising, and gardening. There are certain aspects of the game they just don't want *everyone* to enjoy. I've stopped playing hunts and it's only going to take a few more of these troll systems by SE before I stop playing the game entirely. Too much stress\abuse\hostility in this playerbase.

Interesting thread. I see a lot of people adopting absolute rules either based on the ToS or their personal sense of morality and perception of what is right, wrong, selfish or altruistic. People are twisting and contorting these concepts around to support their point of view in a way that would make Dhalsim blush.

Thing is, in the real world, these rules are only individual parts of the social construct in this MMO. You can repeat "this is how this feature was intended to be played" or "this is against the ToS" or "it's an early pull", or "it's not an early pull" until you are blue in the face. It doesn't matter in the end. Real talk: what matters is how the community as a whole decides to manage this feature and the non written rules which are more widely adopted. You will likely be confronted with repercussions of ignoring those rules way more often than the repercussions of ignoring a somewhat open to interpretation rule in the ToS. Those social repercussions will have the biggest effect on your playing experience - beyond just hunting.

The reality I've seen through hunting almost daily since the inception of the feature:

- A or S rank spawns and is spotted.
- Spotter calls out a pull time, typically 2-3 minutes after the mark has been spotted.
- People gather. The mark is attacked and killed. Qué séra séra.

The rationale behind this approach is that by limiting the wait time for the pull after spotting the mark, you can somewhat control overcrowding to a point where everyone present is very likely to receive full reward. Additionally, calling out the pull time insures two things:

- People in the zone have a reasonable amount of time to reach the mark.
- Late arrivals don't waste their time trying to get to the mark if they know the pull time won't allow it.

That way, you manage people's expectations and there are considerably less complaints. It seems to have been the best compromise I've seen until now, judging by people's reactions.

Despite all these personal rules people like to throw around, people who err outside of those conventions are the ones who face repercussions. Early pullers (i.e "screw the pull time, I'm going in, fist come first serve, blablablah) get angry tells and blacklisted, while players who reset mobs possibly get reported.

There's no perfect solution - in any given situation, there's going to be winners and losers. However, people in this game do seem to generally try to opt for solutions which minimize the number of losers, since we all share the pain of the grind. If you want to cling to your principles and take a step out on on either side of the spectrum, have at it, but don't be surprised it you get angst as a reward.

At the end of day, it's a hunt.

Early pulls are really not anything to blacklist/flame people for. SE put the hunt system in with the idea of groups of people finding the hunts and smacking them in the face.

Why should people wait? I really don't understand peoples logic. You find a mark, you get your group there and rain down hell on it.

Sure it's frustrating when you arrive at a mark location only to find it's already dead - brush yourself off and move on to hunting for the next one.

IMO for Hunts there are actually 2 diffrent kinds of a reset, but it seems most people here throw them both in the same pot.

1, A small party or someone solo found and started fighting a mark, then the zerg-train arrives and the mob gets reset and demolished in mere seconds.

2, An unclaimed mark is found, announced in the LS, and with a few people around someone jumps the gun and pulls while countless people are still on the way, so someone else decides to reset the mob to buy the people on the way a bit more time to get there.

I rarely hunt, but i never actually seen situation 1 on my server. And yes, i think if that happens it should be reported and punished. But i see nothing wrong with a reset in situation 2, especially when you consider that in most situations the person who "pulls early" is not the one who found the mark.

If u reset a monster once, theres no way SE will take the reports serious.
but im not so sure if u reset one mob all over again.

Its funny to see how people say u can report everything under harassment, makes me laugh all the time.

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Originally Posted by Trell

-snip-

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I've been pretty adamant about this subject, but this post was reasonable enough to make me lighten up.

I'm not happy about the fact that what you described is not a "Hunt", or even an NM in the traditional sense, but that's how it's going to be. Severely disappointing.

The nugget of hope is that you don't mention B's. It's pretty much assumed you kill those if you find em, they don't give enough to matter on a grand scale. I think the best solution SE can have in this scenario is to greatly increase the amount of Hunts, but lower the rewards for killing in the coming patches. We need to spread the whole thing out. More hunts - Lower rewards would keep the competitive edge while still preventing griefing. Didn't get there in time? No worries, there will be another one elsewhere, possibly even in the same zone. 3 mobs per zone is quite small, especially when some have really long pop windows.

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Originally Posted by SinSTAR

Early pulls are really not anything to blacklist/flame people for. SE put the hunt system in with the idea of groups of people finding the hunts and smacking them in the face.

Why should people wait? I really don't understand peoples logic. You find a mark, you get your group there and rain down hell on it.

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For some kinds of "early pulls", sure. But what if a group says "there's a mark here, come get it, we're pulling at XX time!" and then they pull it a full two minutes ahead of that? Couldn't that be considered mean-spirited? And, more prevalently, there are a number of players in recent days who will watch for such shouts, and then even though they didn't find the hunt mark, they'll run in and grab it, forcing a pull. It's a hunt, yes, so shouldn't the decision of whether to wait or faceroll lie with the finding party, not some random jerk who's arguably griefing the finding party and any hopefuls running in to get a piece of the pie?

I only read the first page and lol'd. If this was like FFXI where the NM (or hunts, marks, etc, whatever floats your boat) was locked out for everyone but the PT that pulled it, this would be a completely different thread.

I only recently started getting back after a break and seeing a flood of people rushing to a spot reminded me a lot like a Fafnir spawn. I did think it was considerate of players to "wait" a bit before just pulling. Again if it wasn't open for anyone to attack, its first come first serve. The PT that didn't pull first loses. The person that gets there last loses. The result is the same - they both get mad. I'm thankful its not like FFXI. The drama the people bring up now about this is nothing compared to what I saw in FFXI. Either they didn't experience it or forgot about it. The biggest thing I can appreciate is that these Hunts are on going and will always come back within a small window relative to FFXI's.

As for resetting, I didn't give it much thought for above reasons. At work so off top of my head I can only see resetting working once maybe twice. Eventually too many players would come running to make resetting impossible but in the end you still should be able to get the points you was going to get anyway.

So far, people spoting, running, gather, wait and stare at the mob until someone blinks seems to work. If your PC, console, network, or fingers aren't fast enough. The blame should be put there.

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Originally Posted by Brine_Gildchaff

For some kinds of "early pulls", sure. But what if a group says "there's a mark here, come get it, we're pulling at XX time!" and then they pull it a full two minutes ahead of that? Couldn't that be considered mean-spirited? And, more prevalently, there are a number of players in recent days who will watch for such shouts, and then even though they didn't find the hunt mark, they'll run in and grab it, forcing a pull. It's a hunt, yes, so shouldn't the decision of whether to wait or faceroll lie with the finding party, not some random jerk who's arguably griefing the finding party and any hopefuls running in to get a piece of the pie?

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The problem is, SE designed and put in a system that encourages griefing rather than stick with a tried and true FATE type system.

Add to that, that this is the "hooray for me, screw you" generation playing the game.....

People who reset just so their hunt pack of 50-100 people can get the kill over a smaller group of 10-20 that pulled it deserve to be banned imho. But then again, SE designed a system that encourages it...... so I place even more blame on them.

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Originally Posted by Brine_Gildchaff

For some kinds of "early pulls", sure. But what if a group says "there's a mark here, come get it, we're pulling at XX time!" and then they pull it a full two minutes ahead of that? Couldn't that be considered mean-spirited? And, more prevalently, there are a number of players in recent days who will watch for such shouts, and then even though they didn't find the hunt mark, they'll run in and grab it, forcing a pull. It's a hunt, yes, so shouldn't the decision of whether to wait or faceroll lie with the finding party, not some random jerk who's arguably griefing the finding party and any hopefuls running in to get a piece of the pie?

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I'm not sure how I feel on this point, and as such I would probably not pull on a hunt someone else calls out. The counter argument to consider though is this - We wouldn't be content with the person who found the hunt to shout "I found this hunt, it's for my FC only", so why is it OK for that person to control the time / amount of players present before the pull? The person that found it has no choice but to wait for more people since they can't do it alone, and other would arrive with or without the shout. Is it unfair to assume all the other players arriving will be happy to wait for this arbitrary time that one player decided too? Hunts being zerged by a lot of players is no fun, and reduces the chances of full reward for all, so if a player present decides there are already enough why should he wait because another player decided to dictate a time? It's a can of worms since there are follow up questions like what is a fair amount of time, fair number of players, all based on opinion.

I think it's better to just call for help if you need it, and whoever wants to pull first can go for it. If there aren't enough players in your opinion, leave them to get KO'ed and it's their own issue.

EDIT: In my opinion there are plenty of hunts and seals to go round. People should not need to wait for anything longer than it takes to gather the minimum amount of players required. The only reason "early pulls" become an issue is that players don't want to find their own hunt but just wait for a shout, or linkshell tip instead so they can farm more and more and more seals. People who want a hunt should simply be prepared to find their own and be the early bird, otherwise they have no real reason to complain.

lol I'm going to reset everything so hard now

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

The problem is, SE designed and put in a system that encourages griefing rather than stick with a tried and true FATE type system...<sniprandomcomment>...But then again, SE designed a system that encourages it...... so I place even more blame on them.

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They told us how it was designed. People aren't doing the content the way it was designed. The system doesn't encourage griefing. @Brine Why are you calling out hunt mobs in shout? You expect to call something out and have people respect that and not pull?

If I ever find a hunt mob, I call on my FC, then we fight. I don't tell anyone else. Hell, even if I didn't find it, once my groups there, we go. I refuse to wait for the entire server to gather for less chance at full credit. If people show up and it's almost dead, whether it's a B or an A, I enjoy when people cry. Nothing about the content that was introduced ("The Hunt") says I have to announce, wait, or be kind. I praise SE for this fun content, people just get so butthurt it's funny.

I know here on Ramuh, if you see people gathering up and you ask for an invite, you'll get one if theres room. Like literally, they filled a temp LS full just from inviting rando's on the field, A and B mobs were being called out so much there wasn't even time to look for some yourself lol. . .

Heck I don't speak the language, I asked with Auto-Translator, got invited to an Alliance, an LS and was elevated leader to help invite rando's just like that and my client is set to that nasty E only. Spent 4 hours got 1 sand, got pants and decided Hunting wasn't for me, too boring. I've also ran across and solo'd several B's out of sheer luck too, people just run in and just join the fight, some even threw random invites at me, I've never had one reset on me even with tanks bashing on it, sure they would steal aggro but never reset it.


I dunno guys. . .if it's like this on other JP servers SE might not care lol.

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Originally Posted by CSX

I've also ran across and solo'd several B's out of sheer luck too, people just run in and just join the fight, some even threw random invites at me

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That right there...is how the content was designed. /cheer

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

If you monopolize 100% of your girlfriend's time and don't let her talk to or be around other people which would be the appropriate way to share then you are doing the whole dating thing wrong. You can totally apply sharing to a MMO open world mechanic that literally everyone has the ability to equally benefit from if shared. Actually, it's probably the most basic and easy thing to share because if you do it correctly you don't lose anything by sharing, and end up benefiting more people who also don't lose anything.

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Except in this case it's the zerg horde trying to monopolize every single mark, whether it's already claimed or not.

There are a finite number of people that can get full credit for a mob because it takes doing a certain amount of damage to the mob to achieve full credit. Since mobs, y'know, actually die we can safely assume that they have a finite number of hit points. So no, this isn't a situation where "everyone" can receive full credit for each kill, especially on the lower rank mobs. B mobs die in seconds, barely enough time to get 2-3 attacks in.

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Originally Posted by KahnyaRedx

They told us how it was designed.

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When will human beings ever do things "according to design"? It's the developer's job to funnel people into a specific way of playing if it's not working. It's not up to us to just be "good sports" about it all because the next guy isn't going to be a "good sport" and then where does that leave me? So EVERYONE ends up being a tool out on the field and SE could have nipped it in the bud by just lowering the reward, removing the ability to reset, strengthening the monsters by a heck of a lot more than they did, syncing everyone's gear down to like level 30 or something else equally troll, something, ANYTHING.

But they did nothing, so, by its very nature the system DOES encourage griefing... And so does SE.

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Originally Posted by KahnyaRedx

They told us how it was designed. People aren't doing the content the way it was designed. The system doesn't encourage griefing.

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It was designed poorly.....

WTH did they think was going to happen? People were going to be nice and social about who gets the reward? Fat chance.

It encourages griefing by design, whether they intended it to or not. Just because the devs would be nice and share, doesnt mean the playerbase will, and this whole mess proves it.

Unless SE puts in some sort of penalty or downside to zerging in packs of 50-100 people, no one is going to do hunts the way the devs "vision" is. Without a penalty, people are going to resort to the common stance of "hooray for me, screw you" that they've been doing all along.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

When will human beings ever do things "according to design"?

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Then why get mad if you don't do the content by design? It's hard to understand why people get so angry when the same thing happens to me, and yet, I could care less. Oh no someone didn't hold a B rank, big deal? People go through just fine before the hunt, so just be happy they gave something in general.

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Originally Posted by Teirshin

It was designed poorly.....

WTH did they think was going to happen? People were going to be nice and social about who gets the reward? Fat chance.


It encourages griefing by design, whether they intended it to or not.

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I think it's properly designed, and will eventually die down and be experienced how it should have been in the first place. If they perform a major overhaul, then come next coil patch, or the patch after, it's pointless content. New gear etc, will cause the hunt to become casual content as it was meant to be.

I also disagree with the griefing remark, because there's a difference between griefing and people just being butthurt about pixels.

As someone I know pointed out and it makes a lot of sense:

"In FFXI they had a claim system so one group got credit, people cried about it. In FFXIV they implement a system where everyone can get credit, people still cry about it." That about sums up my thoughts on why the devs listened, and now don't feel like changing anything. Because people, regardless, will continue to cry about it.