Who is gonna raid now with the iLvl 110 gear handed to people??

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Giving good gear outside of coil might be what enables more people to do coil. It's the people who are lagging behind due to difficulty that actually need gear more than the frontrunners. People will naturally try all content that is available to them, so you will see more people in coil when they unlock it. If coil participation is declining right now it would be because the people who have been farming it for months are done with it now, while people who haven't got there yet are not seeing difficulty eased enough to make it happen.

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The main issue with your comment, is most of the difficulty is mechanics, not gear checks. Basically meaning, if you're already considered overgeared for the fight, more won't help you.

Why do you people think it so easy to get enough Ally Seal for Sand? I have been Teleport to every Zone, listen to shout, and minutes I get there it is either Dead or I get 5 Seals from it. Join a Hunt LS? It the same exact drama, people won't share or it being populated and competition against other FC or Linkshell.

Right now it is just way too stressful and to deal it to be worth it. If they have the patient and can deal with the Drama and get their sand, more power to them. But if if you're not in the Top FC or LS that farm this, you still won't get Sand. I have already giving up on this already. Open World stuff like this never work out.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Giving good gear outside of coil might be what enables more people to do coil. It's the people who are lagging behind due to difficulty that actually need gear more than the frontrunners. People will naturally try all content that is available to them, so you will see more people in coil when they unlock it. If coil participation is declining right now it would be because the people who have been farming it for months are done with it now, while people who haven't got there yet are not seeing difficulty eased enough to make it happen.

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I honestly doubt that letting full tome people turn into i110s would suddenly make them clear T5 without problems. If yoshi wants more people doing coil2, he might as well just nerf twintania really really hard (twisters only doing 1000 dmg, arena wall only does 1000 damage wall and push you back in,etc) or just give people a free pass and unleash them into coil2 pugs immediately.

But he's not. He's capping the echo at 20%.

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Originally Posted by Nabian

What most people want is for there to remain a small gap in gear between raiders and non-raiders. Essentially setting them apart from others. I think it would be nice (though not really possible) to just look at a character and without ever grouping with them know exactly what their skill level is.

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The fact they're wearing High Allagan gear isn't enough of a difference?

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Originally Posted by Kiokin

The fact they're wearing High Allagan gear isn't enough of a difference?

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No, a difference in numbers is needed for a true comparison of the size of your schwartz!

Apparently OP doesn't know the meaning of BiS, vanity and finishing storyline!

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Originally Posted by Empressia

Apparently OP doesn't know the meaning of BiS, vanity and finishing storyline!

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Definitely for the story.

I do not see a decline in numbers for raiding in coil since bugger all people could raid in there anyway unless you had an elite FC/Static group.

Honestly, anything that shifts the development focus from the "Raids/Instances = Endgame = POINT OF THE GAME!" mentality is welcome. There are more than enough MMOs that shove that down your throat out there, and not nearly enough that try to move away from it.

And I still say that if someone stops raiding for this reason, they probably didn't enjoy that style of content all that much in the first place. Not preying on people's compulsions to make people slog through something they're really not interested in to force content to be relevant is a good thing.

Of course, the argument could be made that the same thing was done with hunts, but eh... Have Coil and CT throw them at you as well now and at least there'll be options.

thus why you should have a raid group of some sort. Hunts may be a way to get sands but as far as the general population on the server I am on.. most people can't even get to the hunt marks to kill them for credit. People pulling early and being on a high population server. ^^;

Plus I know my FC personally still wants to clear the content, we have a few min-maxers in our group.. plus I dunno about you.. but the Coil gear from turns 6-9 is pretty sexy. Not to mention the weapons are still best in slot..

Who's getting all these sands? Believe me, most of the people who have gotten over 1 sand since this started are people who are in very successful hunt linkshells or very successful fc's. Almost all of these people are already high end raiders. They're occasionally bringing some friends and family along, but at the moment, the current system as actually ANTI casual. Successful hunt ls's are very hard to get into(on my server, most are asking +100k gil to get into, and they kick you once you log off).


Given the fact that it's the middle of summer, raiding seems to be on an uptick(for those who don't know, all types of organized activity on mmo's tend to downtick during summer, due to people having vacations or not being inside as much, enjoying the outdoors, etc.) And believe me, if raiding pops were to decline, it has more to do with the linear progression model in this game paired with mediocre fight design by developers creating a growing playerbase that are simply stuck(by lack of skill, internet connection, etc).

The idea of highest ilvl gear being thrown at the playerbase is a great talking point. It's current execution, however, counters it.

First of all thx for all your replies, I just now had time to read all your posts

I think everybody got my point pretty well and there are people who agree and disagree, to clarify things, my wholse point was to give SCoB an incentive to be done! Only a weapon is not enough

In fact, my point was that there is people who will never ever do raid content, there is players like this and it's fine, no problem. Catching up patch is absolutly fine and SE should stick to it.

My point was that there is no real incentive to do end game content in those patches, so majority will gear up with sand and oil, be 110 and wait for 2.4. But this could have easily been avoided by making end-raid content unique. Hell, just make latest end game content the only place to obtain gear that may be 5 iLvl higher than everything else. It would have solve the problem if High allagan gear was all the way iLvl 115. This would have been an incentive to do this content. The carrot would have been unique. Casual would be 110 and be super fine with it, raiders would have been 115 and have their reward and be super fine with it. Players that are between the line between raiding and not raiding may have had the incentive to do SCoB and this is my WHOLE point.
This wasnt about BiS, vanity, entitlement or everything else, it was that with less effort, you have pretty much same reward and that I just want more people doing this content so we could have fun together

I think that making end game reward only 5 iLvl more would do the job

What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Dwill

The irony and hypocrisy of that statement. I mean if you guys are in it for the fun and if numbers are so irrelevent to you, why are you so against removing Sands from the Hunt ?

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Why are you so against letting them remain? You play the game, raiding or otherwise, for fun right? Should it matter the path people take to acquire the same gear? I mean, it has nothing to do with e-peen and all to do with gearing up for the next tier of content right?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

But he's not. He's capping the echo at 20%.

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Capping echo at 20% does not exclude a mechanics nerf.
In fact, in recent interviews he's been open to nerfing Twintania.

Who care anyway, by 3 more Months there will be another new Binding Coil and the i110 become irrelevant and no more lockout on previous coil. MMORPG is a progression, BiS Gear will get replace by new one when Contents get old and new content come out.

Also Sand will be added in Syrcus Tower after a couple of Month, will you cry about that too?

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Capping echo at 20% does not exclude a mechanics nerf.
In fact, in recent interviews he's been open to nerfing Twintania.

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20% plus outgearing the fight by 20-30 ilvls isn't enough? The two mechanics that most often kill people are divebombs and twisters. In both cases its not a matter of having instantaneous reflexes but more about paying attention. People who haven't cleared T5 imo are either not trying hard enough or just lazy. Alot of players expect that they should be getting the win after a few tries. I know many statics that struggled on T5 for 2-3 months 2 hours a night ever night before they finally got their clear. Now that the echo is in place and all the extra gear it has trivialized most of the mechanics of that fight. It's easy enough now that if your work at it hard enough you will get your clear. They don't need to nerf the mechanics any more.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlebeard

Why are you so against letting them remain? You play the game, raiding or otherwise, for fun right? Should it matter the path people take to acquire the same gear? I mean, it has nothing to do with e-peen and all to do with gearing up for the next tier of content right?

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Try again.

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Originally Posted by Zaiken

Who care anyway, by 3 more Months there will be another new Binding Coil and the i110 become irrelevant and no more lockout on previous coil. MMORPG is aprogression, BiS Gear will get replace by new one when Contents get old and new content come out.

Also Sand will be added in Syrcus Tower after a couple of Month, will you cry about that too?

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The excuse of gearing up for new content is pathetic at best (in my opinion). Most people using it are so behind on actual content where gear is relevant to begin with and since history tends to repeat itself, most people won't do the gear relevant content in 2.4 (minus the new dungeons, which you really won't need i110 for) as well but still ask for gear handout in 2.5. These peoples tend to clear said content not because of gear but because of the ridiculous nerfs that tends to follow these encounters in the months that follows. If you guys want a feel of progression, just ask for more nerfs on previous tier of contents so you can complete before asking gear for the next brick wall you're going to go throw yourself at.

I was i110 well before they released hunts.... So I should stop running coil in your theory here?
Its just for more casual/new players to catch up, people to get offspec in spare time ect, and for that its fine.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

They are going to massively nerf all those turns though, so you don't get to watch them fail. SCoB:T4 might be easier than Twin though (post nerf).

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I haven't heard of them nerfing any of the game's mechanics since twisters after the first kill. If they were nerfing, then I would assume they would have already nerfed the first binding.

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Originally Posted by hyperhelios

I haven't heard of them nerfing any of the game's mechanics since twisters after the first kill. If they were nerfing, then I would assume they would have already nerfed the first binding.

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I guess you haven't been to AK at all since then, or read any patch notes, as the gnats were removed from Demon Wall. That's just one example of a mechanics nerf that happened to the GAME since that twisters nerf. Another example would be the nerf that happened to Pharos Sirius...
You also probably don't pay attention to various interviews, as it's been noted that a nerf is likely for Twintania.

If we're talking strictly coil nerfs, ADS High Voltage can now be Esuna/Leeches removed and it's not as potent as before, as one example...

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Originally Posted by Staris

I was i110 well before they released hunts.... So I should stop running coil in your theory here?
Its just for more casual/new players to catch up, people to get offspec in spare time ect, and for that its fine.

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Exactly. Also for less skilled people who require the gear to bring them to a level to beat new content. Being able to grind for i110 might even get some people closer to beating the first Coil, or Titan EX.

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Originally Posted by hyperhelios

I haven't heard of them nerfing any of the game's mechanics since twisters after the first kill. If they were nerfing, then I would assume they would have already nerfed the first binding.

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I mean they'll nerf Second Coil and it'll probably be easier than current Twin

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Exactly. Also for less skilled people who require the gear to bring them to a level to beat new content. Being able to grind for i110 might even get some people closer to beating the first Coil, or Titan EX.

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Gear is not the reason people fail at these encounters. People fail on these consistently without even being close to killing them at max Echo with i100. The way to beat these encounters is simply to get better or wait until they nerf it to oblivion.

I was re-thinking the whole issue based on several factors. Another user posted this article in a related thread: http://gamerescape.com/2014/07/16/ff...with-the-hunt/ with a lot of responses in this thread.

Warning - Personal opinion incoming: I think now the hunting system is a game breaking content. The action of giving these monsters more HP, make more players to get there and get their kill, which means more seals for everybody, which means getting the "top" (not bis though) gear more quickly. Today I ventured myself in a trial roulette and the war was decked in full ilvl 110 sold. As I stated before, I don't mind that, there's no merit on it, but it burns the content. The rest of the content lose their purpose:

- Why would you do dungeons/trials if you can cap myth/sold with hunting?
- Why would you care about money if you can get a shit ton of craft mats with said myths?
- Why would you care to raid or do alternative content for gear if you have unlimited access to sands/oils of time? while raiders are locked out with 2 of each/week and chained to the RNG god?
- Why would SOME PEOPLE crowd the RAIDs if they have access to raid content already in a wild/free environment?

So, in the end, the end-game content gets devalued, openly inviting the devs to nerf it. I think the devs seriously understimated the grinding capabilities of the gaming community, which in a happy world, would make them to get the sands/oils at a lower rate instead of the current situation. This leads the whole thing to my next concern:

Even though this is a "catch up" patch, the 2.3 just went live and people are burning the the progression curve with this system. I invite SE to analize the ilvl 110 obtain ratio after patch and make their own conclusions. It's not good for business. People will not have anything to do when they're full decked out with ilvl 110 gear. We have 2 months and a half before the next patch! This is crazy! I know there's a limit for sold, I know there's a limit for UAT (2/week with ST and SCOB), but there're no limits for something that the end-game or the other developed content has. Why is that?

Several solutions were already stated, like adding a weekly lockout to sands/oils or seals themselves. The system in theory is nice, I like it, but the rewards are game breaking if not controlled somehow.

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

- Why would you care to raid or do alternative content for gear if you have unlimited access to sands/oils of time? while raiders are locked out with 2 of each/week and chained to the RNG god?

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Raiders can participate in the hunt as well so they're not limited in any way with regards to sands/oils...
And there's plenty of people that ignore the hunt because of all the drama associated with it.
Some of us continue to do DR to get our myth/sold in a leisurely pace without drama.

I agree however that the hunting system as implemented is broken, but it is also exactly what people on these forums have begged for:
Open world grindable content, not locked into FATE's, that is actually worth something and without any kind of lockouts.

Maybe now SE will learn to not listen to minorities just because they happen to be the most vocal.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

I agree however that the hunting system as implemented is broken, but it is also exactly what people on these forums have begged for:
Open world grindable content, not locked into FATE's, that is actually worth something and without any kind of lockouts.

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I agree but one could safely assume(not anymore) that Square Enix would at the very least put some kind of lock out to the items that allow you the access some of the best gear in the game. Putting a lockout on this type of content while not being the "Fix-it-all" solution would help to alleviate quite a few problems with the Hunt as it currently stands.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Maybe now SE will learn to not listen to minorities just because they happen to be the most vocal.

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Not sure who you're refering to because in my opinion, the most vocal are by far the casuals and they are not the minorities. Yet casuals seems to think that the hardcore are more vocal.

I don't understand teh OP or the million threads like this.

OP has a static coil group of 8 people or more clearing T6+

Other people get 110 gear

OP has a static coil group of 8 people or more clearing T6+

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Originally Posted by MythToken

I don't understand teh OP or the million threads like this.

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Then read the thread. You might understand if you read the posts explaining.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

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In my opinion, the system itself is not that bad. I like open world content and I was one of the players that asked for a "mark system" similar than the FFXII mark system. The obvious problem I see here is the rewards associated with it. I'm a raid player, I love end-game content and that's why I'm paying for this game. I also love hunting, having 4 dedicated LS about that and tracking these marks down is somewhat enjoyable. But I came to the realization that this IS mindless and the rewards are WAAAAY to big...

Well, just to throw my $.02 in to the mix, I didn't raid much before 2.2. I had trouble finding a static of people that could all play at the same time. The people in my FC are all real cool, great players, and we all like raiding but our times didn't match up well. That caused us to only really be able to get into the first turns of coil every Saturday for about a month and a half before 2.2 came out.

We were all i90 in myth by then, so aside from the BiS properties of maybe exchanging some pieces here and there, there was no super huge value of the loot when we began raiding. We all wanted to raid because of the challenge of the fights, and learning how to deal with new situations that vanilla and 2.1 didn't have us in.

We still managed to clear T1-4 in that month and a half before 2.2 came out and first coil turns were given the echo buff. After 2.2, we all collectively decided to go our separate ways as far as our raid static went. We all stayed in the same FC, because we had become good friends and we could always do other content together, but 1 day a week just wasn't enough for any of us. We all had intentions of progressing SCoB, but were aware enough to know that it probably wasn't going to happen together.

So me and 1 other person from my FC (our times matched up great) found a new raid static with other people whose times matched better with ours. We went through about 1 1/2 months of mixing and matching 1 or 2 people here and there until we finally had 8 people that showed up on the same days at the same times every week, and didn't have to replace anymore. Now we are on T9 learning Nael, and hope to have that turn down in the coming weeks.

Point of the story....


With all of the different people I have raided with over the last 2-3 months, EVERY time we beat a coil boss for the first time it sounded like a party in mumble. Everyone would be hooting and hollering with genuine happiness over the accomplishment.



And those emotions ALWAYS happened before we ever opened a treasure coffer...

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Then read the thread. You might understand if you read the posts explaining.

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I've read the thread, and it mostly just seems to be "elite" raiders being pissed that other people are catching up to them faster.

This idea of gear being "prestigious" is ludicrously outdated, like... 2006 outdated. Gear yourself, do the content you want to do, and enjoy yourself with your static. If you're BiS, utterly minmaxed, and cleared through SCoB and SSCoB, what's it matter what anyone else is doing?

And if you're not, you should be focused on that instead of "Teh cazuals takin' muh gearz!!"

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Originally Posted by Fendred

Who cares? Anything dropped from Second Coil of Bahamut will be acquired more easily once patch 2.4 comes out and on top of that all of coil's gear will be outdated when the first expansion comes out.

I'm more concerned with how Yoshi's direction with the game is making everything increasingly drawn out and less satisfying as a whole. Its almost one step forward and two steps back with each patch.

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↑↑↑ This guy gets it.

http://media.tumblr.com/600f88fff192...TPf1sn51rw.gif

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

In my opinion, the system itself is not that bad. I like open world content and I was one of the players that asked for a "mark system" similar than the FFXII mark system. The obvious problem I see here is the rewards associated with it. I'm a raid player, I love end-game content and that's why I'm paying for this game. I also love hunting, having 4 dedicated LS about that and tracking these marks down is somewhat enjoyable. But I came to the realization that this IS mindless and the rewards are WAAAAY to big...

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People are forgetting is that by the time 2.4 is released, many players will have moved on from the Hunts as they will have new iLvl content to zerg. When 2.5 (or expansion) is out, Hunts will be effectively dead content unless SE injects some sort of artificial life extension into them (ie, makes them essential in a future step for Zodiac weapons).

I raid with my mates for the fun and the gear to clear the content before nerf. I don't care what other ppl have or do. Just a game, lol. Some peeps in this thread really really have a screw loose and should consult psychiatrist IMO.

\sarcasm Ofc, SCoB Savage is the easiest raid ever in mmo history...

Yes, with enough time and dedication all is possible. On the other hand, for our group, 5h raiding / week is enough as we all have other stuff to do besides FFXIV. Currently struggling on Heavensfall though. I don't think we will clear savage mode, it is just a bonus incentive for the bored and high-volume players, which is ok.

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Originally Posted by Eissels

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I think you're missing the point here. It's not about casuals getting e-g gear, it's about how that is not being controlled somehow. Having unlimited access to something is not a good business model, imo. That's why we have weekly/daily lockouts on several stuff. Now, picture this: people have been asking for removing the weekly tomes lockout. Would you NOW consider that after what you're experiencing with the hunting system? I think the most logical answer is "no". Why? because people will be burning the content, having less stuff to do, ignoring other content. Yes, I know it's not something that EVERYBODY will do, but still it will have a direct impact on the remaining content.

BTW, where is the evidence that Savage is already cleared completely?

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Originally Posted by Zantetsuken

People are forgetting is that by the time 2.4 is released, many players will have moved on from the hunts as they will be geared up for SCoB. When 2.5 hits, hunts will be effectively dead content.

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I mentioned this in a previous response:

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Even though this is a "catch up" patch, the 2.3 just went live and people are burning the the progression curve with this system. I invite SE to analize the ilvl 110 obtain ratio after patch and make their own conclusions. It's not good for business. People will not have anything to do when they're full decked out with ilvl 110 gear. We have 2 months and a half before the next patch! This is crazy! I know there's a limit for sold, I know there's a limit for UAT (2/week with ST and SCOB), but there're no limits for something that the end-game or the other developed content has. Why is that?

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Originally Posted by Cyrus-Wallace

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But it is being controlled. You don't have unlimited access to i110 gear. Unless there's some page on the vendor I didn't see, the weathered gear is still gated behind soldiery, and while there's a good portion of the playerbase who is decked out in full weathered (or close to it,) it's probably smaller than you'd think. You can't actually upgrade weathered gear unless you have weathered gear, and since it's 1.5-2 weeks per piece (not counting jewelry), not everyone is going to be spam gearing up every job to be decked out in full i110 like people make it out to be.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places, but so far I've not seen the "full i110 gear with zero HA" crowd that people seem to be under the impression are running around everywhere. I think the most I've seen on someone was five pieces.

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Originally Posted by Grotesque

BTW, where is the evidence that Savage is already cleared completely?

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AFAIK only T6 and T7 have been cleared. Haven't seen any evidence of T8 or T9 clears.

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Originally Posted by Eissels

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Also mentioned in a previous response:

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Even though this is a "catch up" patch, the 2.3 just went live and people are burning the the progression curve with this system. I invite SE to analize the ilvl 110 obtain ratio after patch and make their own conclusions. It's not good for business. People will not have anything to do when they're full decked out with ilvl 110 gear. We have 2 months and a half before the next patch! This is crazy! I know there's a limit for sold, I know there's a limit for UAT (2/week with ST and SCOB), but there're no limits for something that the end-game or the other developed content has. Why is that?

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So far, the only controlled item is the weapon, because the UAT has a weekly lockout in SCOB and it was recently added in ST, but it's been months since the 2.2 went live and there're a lot of people with sold gear. Really. Probably people that quit between patches or weeks didn't get their full sold gear, but the UPGRADE itself should be harder to attain, imo. I'm not against the idea of getting these items, I want people not being able to do SCOB to get them, since they're giving them an alternative route for progression, but that route is broken at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

AFAIK only T6 and T7 have been cleared. Haven't seen any evidence of T8 or T9 clears.

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Yup, saw on YT Blue has T6, and some Japanese guys 6+7. 7 savage is some sort of crazy shit imo :D