Solutions to stop speedrunning

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

The problem isn't really with speed runs. . . If you want to fully experience a dungeon, you're entitled to that. If you want to speed run it, you're entitled to that. But neither preference can be held as standard.

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I'm tired of Brayflox, speed runs or not. If it weren't for that minion or gear for my lower classes, I just wouldn't.

I have not read through the 21 pages, but has anyone mentioned that the dungeons are designed to be challenging for ilvl 55, yet we have ilvl 100+ running it, of course they are going to want to grab more mobs and burn them down to not fall asleep from how weak the dungeon is.

"expert roulette dungeons" are way under-tuned anyways. having i90 = stompfest. they should just give players darklight right at 50 now, and tune up brayfox/halitali/amdapor.

Speedrunning is not a thing that should or can be stopped. All you can do is make speedruns take longer, and that is bad game design, especially when the solution to running the hallway fast is to put more locked doors in it. No, the way to stop speedrunning is to give people a reason NOT to speedrun.

My idea would require significant system-level changes but each dungeon should have a checklist of stuff to do.

Let's say Brayflox Story (because I firmly believe this is the best designed dungeon in the game right now) was tuned up to be an endgame dungeon and rewarded myth/soldiery instead of exp.
Completion: 50 myth + 45 Soldiery
Killed X enemies: 10 myth
Rescued all goblins: 20 myth + 5 soldiery
Opened all chests: 5 myth
Killed brayflox: 10 soldiery

It wouldn't kill speedruns. But it would give full clears a reason to exist. Also, the soldiery cap is far, far too high, and the myth cap should never have been removed.

Solution to speedrunning is to join and start doing it yourself. :-)

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Originally Posted by Immut

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Your last line contradicts your entire point. Making tomes stupidly hard to obtain is another method of artificially lengthening the hallway. A big reason why brayflox hM runs kinda suck in DF is people need a lot of tomes. making them even harder to get makes the runs much more popular than even their current peak. There's no point to it.

I hate speedrunning. I hate it very very much. I think it hurts the game in that it is another thing that sets a ridiculous standard for all players, which is horseshit.

What they NEED to do:

1. Make all dungeon monsters have VERY limited roam space. A very tight circle around their origin points and if they stray from those small zones, they warp back to their original position at full health.

2. Make it so ALL monsters need to be defeated in each area to open the boss room, with every monster defeated to open the final boss room. Have a counter next to the dungeon status in the quest log.

Well what they need to do is allow us to make tomes fast in a different way, I know for 1500 myth I don't want to take an hr on 1 dungeon when the only reward is 50. That's 30 hrs of dungeons for 1 atma book...no thanks. But I seldom do roulettes anymore, its just better setting up your own speed run pt.

And before anyone makes a "I want it now" comment, I don't mind taking time to make a weapon, but when dungeons are just that easy and the grind just that boring. At least in xi for relics and mythics all the content you had to do was fun and gave you a feel of progression and the weapons didn't get outdated every 3 months. These dungeons are a snoozefest, esp at only 3 mobs a pull. Ilvl creates urgency, esp when it goes outdated every 90 days.

Plus why only fight 3 mobs when you can easily handle 12? That just seems inefficient to me.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

And before anyone makes a "I want it now" comment, I don't mind taking time to make a weapon, but when dungeons are just that easy and the grind just that boring. At least in xi for relics and mythics all the content you had to do was fun and gave you a feel of progression and the weapons didn't get outdated every 3 months. These dungeons are a snoozefest, esp at only 3 mobs a pull. Ilvl creates urgency, esp when it goes outdated every 90 days.

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Your timeframe is wrong. Exactly half wrong. The iLvl ceiling raised after 2 major patches. After 6 months, or 180 days. The ceiling is due to raise again the next time Coil is updated in Patch 2.4. This is currently about 4 months away. Things are not as urgent as you claim...

Well a couple months is a couple months, but some of us are used to gear being good for years so you could take your time. And I think you forget Ilvls on relics are getting raised a lot faster than every 6 months, we went from zenith to atma to animus and now novus in a very short time, hence the creation of urgency so you don't fall behind.

http://iambrony.dget.cc/mlp/gif/2294....gif%20(1).gif
yup!

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

Well a couple months is a couple months, but some of us are used to gear being good for years so you could take your time. And I think you forget Ilvls on relics are getting raised a lot faster than every 6 months, we went from zenith to atma to animus and now novus in a very short time, hence the creation of urgency so you don't fall behind.

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And unless the Relics are going to go above 110 before 2.4, then the Novus is probably going to take a long time to get. A REALLY long time. If it follows the same trend as Zenith(matching the iLvl of coil gear at the time), then we wouldn't expect to see an upgrade past Novus until 2.4... unless there's a plan to bump them to i115. This would allow people to take their time getting the Novus weapon, which is good considering that many people don't have an Animus yet.

Our timeline

Release(2.0): Relic(i80) and Zenith(i90). Highest iLvl of other gear is 90.

Six months later(2.2): Atma and Animus(i100). Highest iLvl of other gear becomes 110.

2 months later(2.28): Novus(i110)

As you can see, Relic levels are rising slower than overall gear. It took 2 more months for relics to reach i110 than any other high tier gear in the game.

4 months later?(2.4): My prediction of when a post-Novus weapon will become available. Which, if trends continue, will be i120.

People finding efficient means to do menial repetitive content faster so they can get on to doing more interesting/challenging things does not sound to me like a problem. There are more ways to form groups than DF, want to go slow, make friends or advertise a PF. If you can't find others that want to do things that way then people simply don't want to do things that way. So be it.

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

People finding efficient means to do menial repetitive content faster so they can get on to doing more interesting/challenging things does not sound to me like a problem. There are more ways to form groups than DF, want to go slow, make friends or advertise a PF. If you can't find others that want to do things that way then people simply don't want to do things that way. So be it.

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The problem is not the fact that speedruns exist, but rather that they are being expected in the Duty Finder. The argument is that the Duty Finder is the one place where it shouldn't be expected. The Party Finder exists for "alternative" runs, and it's clearly an issue with the community when people go to the Duty Finder to avoid alternative runs and get pressured into doing so anyway. As the tank, I've personally been kicked from a Brayflox for not leading a speedrun during my Expert Roulette. Should I really be locked out of a piece of content just because I prefer to run it the "normal" way? Absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by SecsyMancat

People stepping on others' toes and cutting corners to do menial repetitive content faster so they can get on to doing more interesting/challenging things does not sound to me like a problem. There are more ways to form groups than DF, want to go slow, make friends or advertise a PF. If you can't find others that want to do things that way then people simply don't want to do things that way. So be it.

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This seems a bit more accurate. The onus would be on you to form your kind of parties through Party Finder, not those who simply want to run through a random dungeon through Duty Roulette.

It would be well, however, that SE increases the number of Myth tomes to the same number previously assigned to Philosophy tomes (if not more). Again, Myth equipment is no longer top-level gear and the currency required should not be quite as tightly distributed.

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Originally Posted by Donjo

As the tank, I've personally been kicked from a Brayflox for not leading a speedrun during my Expert Roulette. Should I really be locked out of a piece of content just because I prefer to run it the "normal" way? Absolutely not.

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If you are out voted 3-1, I don't see why you get so upset.

Speedrunning dungeons like Bray is really the normal way these days, 3 mob pulls when you are in a pt that can easily handle large pulls is just not efficient. So you don't wanna do speed runs that is your thing, fine. But its really kindda rude to expect 3 other ppl to bow down and do it your way just cause that's what YOU prefer. The road goes 2 ways Im afraid. Complain all you want but in situations where you are outnumbered by the entire pt and you don't want to cooperate makes you the same person you are complaining about lol

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

..Speedrunning dungeons like Bray is really the normal way these days, 3 mob pulls...

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agree..., tbh it is really normal. I suggest it should be called as "normal-Speed run"... ^^;

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Originally Posted by Donjo

The problem is not the fact that speedruns exist, but rather that they are being expected in the Duty Finder. The argument is that the Duty Finder is the one place where it shouldn't be expected. The Party Finder exists for "alternative" runs

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df is clearly democratic and the only 'problem' is that some people are not accepting that,
speedruns are now normal, so as you just stated yourself, pf exists for people that want to do it 'alternatively'

in short, speedrun is normal, slow is alternative, thats just life

There is nothing that will stop people from speed running. If it's viable, people will attempt to complete it as fast as possible. I can see only two possible ways to combat this. One is forcing you to kill all mobs to proceed, like haukke hm. While this works, it would become tiresome to see after a while. Another thing is to make more complex or powerful trash mobs. The size of possible pulls is directly correlated to how much they tax the healer and the tank, and since all trash hits like wet noodles, it's easy to round up a bunch and aoe them down.

When compared to content that is speed runnable, this tougher content would need to offer comparable tomes and loot, else players will still choose to face roll content for small, quick, reliable sources of tomes. For that matter, I don't see why each tier of dungeons has to offer the same amount of tomes. It's obvious that some dungeons take longer than others, so why not design them with that in mind in the first place, and offer loot accordingly.

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

If you are out voted 3-1, I don't see why you get so upset.

Speedrunning dungeons like Bray is really the normal way these days, 3 mob pulls when you are in a pt that can easily handle large pulls is just not efficient. So you don't wanna do speed runs that is your thing, fine. But its really kindda rude to expect 3 other ppl to bow down and do it your way just cause that's what YOU prefer. The road goes 2 ways Im afraid. Complain all you want but in situations where you are outnumbered by the entire pt and you don't want to cooperate makes you the same person you are complaining about lol

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No, it does not make me the same person I'm complaining about. Kicking someone for a reason other than "Harassment, Offline, AFK, or Cheating" is an inappropriate use of the Vote Kick Feature and is thus against the terms of service. Entering the dungeon and saying "I'd prefer not to speedrun this. I apologize for the 5-7 extra minutes this run will take." is not, and kicking the person who says this is far and away the ruder action, especially since a normal run will be on the way to the 3rd boss by the time Vote Kicking is even enabled... and the total time for the run, factoring in the wait for another tank, is likely greater than the time that would have been spent just finishing the instance, even if one joins quickly.

I'm not being rude; I'm just performing my role as the Tank in the way I'm most comfortable doing it. I'm not trying to wipe the party. I'm not trying to go as slow as possible out of spite. 99% of the time, nobody complains about the way I tank. It's a toxic double standard for my methods to be "illegal" in one specific instance.

You know, I'm fine with speed running. Do it all the time. I've tanked speed runs, I've DPS'd speed runs, I've healed speed runs. I'm very used to them. However, there is a very obnoxious trend I've been seeing more and more of lately, especially in main scenario roulette, and that is tanks rushing in and locking 1-3 folks out of every fight. I'm not talking they didn't want to wait for people watching CS's, but they didn't want to wait for people with load times slightly slower than theirs, ps3 players for example.

Now, I'm not a math professor, but I'm pretty sure waiting that extra 10 seconds is way faster than trying to do a boss fight with only 5-7 people, even if they're geared on the lower end of the spectrum, they should still cut more than 10 seconds off of a long boss fight like Nero or Ultima or w/e. I've actually started vote kicking and reporting people who do this and refuse to stop, and have been assured by a GM that this is a legitimate case of harassment.

Seriously, I get that people want everything to go faster, and that's just the norm, but when you're so impatient that you're actually making things run slower, that's just counterproductive for everybody involved, including yourself.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

When compared to content that is speed runnable, this tougher content would need to offer comparable tomes and loot, else players will still choose to face roll content for small, quick, reliable sources of tomes.

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It's not about a challenge, it's about amount of time spent, in order to maximize your sold/hour or myth/hour.

In your scenario, doing the more challenging dungeon would net me more myth/sold, but take longer then the current 8-10min BF runs that I do. And that's killing every mob in the instance for the extra gil, and a chance at the minion. Which negates the "make people kill everything" solution.

Like someone else said, if speed runs aren't your thing, don't do speed runs.

The issue doesn't really come down to speed running being the problem. The problem is that the current HM's should drop darklight gear, and there should be i70 dungeons that drop i80 gear, and then finally there should be i80 dungeons that drop myth tomes, then I'd say there should be i90 dungeons to get sold tomes.

Before people bring up coil, i would really like some hard 4 man content. Tired of almost everything requiring 8 people.

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Originally Posted by BoomShakalaka

It's not about a challenge, it's about amount of time spent, in order to maximize your sold/hour or myth/hour.

In your scenario, doing the more challenging dungeon would net me more myth/sold, but take longer then the current 8-10min BF runs that I do. And that's killing every mob in the instance for the extra gil, and a chance at the minion. Which negates the "make people kill everything" solution.

Like someone else said, if speed runs aren't your thing, don't do speed runs.

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That's exactly the point. If speed runs are the most efficient way to get tomes, which currently they are by far, then people will speed run for tomes. I get that, and I have no problem with it. I just think that speed runs are inherently boring, largely because trash packs are currently very boring. I'm proposing an alternative that will take you longer, but will offer at least equally efficient tomes and more engaging gameplay over pulling 10 mobs at a time.

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Originally Posted by Coth_X

The issue doesn't really come down to speed running being the problem. The problem is that the current HM's should drop darklight gear, and there should be i70 dungeons that drop i80 gear, and then finally there should be i80 dungeons that drop myth tomes, then I'd say there should be i90 dungeons to get sold tomes.

Before people bring up coil, i would really like some hard 4 man content. Tired of almost everything requiring 8 people.

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That would be soo fun. Real four man CHALLENGING content. With Rare gear drops of i70-i90/95 depending on what you are running. I think you implement this and we get more variety of things to run.

The only problem is that due to efficiency reasons, they may not get touched after the first few weeks of introduction as there are better ways of getting tomes. Maybe a daily bonus to them outside of roulette would be a good incentive. Dunno. I like spending only a couple hours capping tomes, then I can spend the rest of my time....waiting for 8 man content groups to form, go in for a couple runs only to have a couple people leave so I can wait all over. It's the best, I love it.

Syn

The speed runs aren't the problem. It's the lack of variety in acquiring the myth tomes that is.

I've done countless speed runs, and It's so boring and monotonous not because it's a speed run, but because I've done this 7-8 minute run countless times. Until Myth tomes can be gathered in a nearly equally effective way to dungeons nothing will change. I do the roulette's every day for the extra tomes, not because I particularly enjoy the dungeons available and want to spend 30-40 minutes of my life in a 10-15 minute dungeon. Other non-dungeon methods of getting my ought to be added through: gathering, ventures, open world enemies that drop them or reward them from fates (I can see a level 50 that syncs to a fate 10+ levels below rewarding myth since no reasonable xp or gil is received), beast tribe giving more than 5 or 7 per quest 6 times a day, crafting items (chests) that when opened give myth (hq gives more, higher craft level = more tomes etc..).

Let's just get crazy and have SE give us weekly allotments of tomes! Each week on reset you get 225 Soldiery and 1000 Myth. I am sure that will put a stop to EVERYTHING! You will still have to work for tomes, just not as long and "speedy". /endsarcasm

Syn

if treasurehunting gave 50myth out of each chest i might start that instead, but crystal tower no way, i'll always take the option that doesn't make me sit still for 40minutes

Imagine how many Treasure hunts would commence if they announced that Sands, Oils, and Unidentified tomes came out of high level chests!!! ZOMG

To me the problem is the assumption of speedrunning and mindless speedrunning tactics have bled terrible gameplay into other dungeons. You would not believe how many times I've had to tell i90+ dps not to use aoe on a single target recently. It doesn't matter how over-geared you are, aoeing a single target is slower and less efficient than single target attacks. Too many bards I run with just mindlessly aoe no matter what the circumstance now, and everything takes longer to kill. And then trying to cheese through boss mechanics, just expecting me to heal them through anything, which is irritating on things like the first boss of pharos. They need to remove the option before the highly geared get any worse at playing. Basically these are people running a dungeon who are soul-sick of running a dungeon and shouldn't be there. They need to provide mechanics that are challenging enough to keep people from zoning out and disincentive enough for people who don't want to be there not to bother. The sync feature of the lower dungeons accomplishes this rather well, I'm not sure at all why they haven't added it to the 50 dungeons. Leave the 8-man stuff uncapped, but for the love of god either make ilvl 60,70,80 dungeons or cap the existing ones so people can't be lazy and expect everyone else to pick up their slack.

I'll say it again: For the crowd that simply wants to burn through an enemy gauntlet quickly and receive their precious tomes, Make guildhests a more effective source of tomes or make new ones that offer a fair amount of tomes and/or more of a challenge. Keep the gear/loot drops and interesting/creative/non-speedrun mechanics or features to dungeons. Basically, don't change how dungeons work, but allow guildhests to become an option - and a preferred one at that - for your speedrunners. Both parties get what they want, this can create MORE content across a wider player spectrum, and maybe - just maybe put this matter to rest.

situation has been changed.
in accordance with 2.28 patch, maybe now OP will want solutions to speedrunning ^^;

we need more solutions to speedrunning, not only one 2BossMythRun solution.

Wait...what did I miss, wot changed?

I don't see a problem with speed-running. As people have proposed countless times through this entire thread: Communicate. You don't need to change the mechanics in anything, you don't need to 'outlaw' speed-running.

I'm a very casual player and like to play at my own pace (which is VERY slow...), but when you are partying with others--especially strangers--you want to be respectful of their time. Grinding end-game is a very tedious chore.

I just dunno what all the hoop-la is about. Some people have a preference for it, some don't. It boils down to just about anything in life. It is -YOUR- responsibility, as a player, to cope with it. Don't put the burden on Square Enix. They've enough on their plate as it is dealing with ACTUAL problems like programming bugs/issues and adding planned patch material, and someday I'm sure they will increase the level cap or add classes/jobs.

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Originally Posted by LanceValiant

I don't see a problem with speed-running. As people have proposed countless times through this entire thread: Communicate. You don't need to change the mechanics in anything, you don't need to 'outlaw' speed-running.


I just dunno what all the hoop-la is about. Some people have a preference for it, some don't. It boils down to just about anything in life. It is -YOUR- responsibility, as a player, to cope with it. Don't put the burden on Square Enix. They've enough on their plate as it is dealing with ACTUAL problems like programming bugs/issues and adding planned patch material, and someday I'm sure they will increase the level cap or add classes/jobs.

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Man the OF is no place for revolutionary talk like take personal responsibility...

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Originally Posted by Acala

Man the OF is no place for revolutionary talk like take personal responsibility...

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LOL I know right? How dangerous of me to suggest such a thing. ~

To be frank, I enjoy the challenge of a speed run. I think I've only done 1-2 speed runs through my normal story-mode dungeons and I've done fine; granted, it's not the more hardcore material, but when you are grouped with people you can trust it makes it a lot of fun. I also don't mind running with pugs on occasion, but I am just more comfortable with my own team. I get socially anxious when it comes to meeting new people. <.<

Easiest way to stop speed runs and people leaving mid game, is just make it that no one gets any myth or soldiery untill all mobs are dead including Bosses. Simple

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Originally Posted by DirtyMoney

Easiest way to stop speed runs and people leaving mid game, is just make it that no one gets any myth or soldiery untill all mobs are dead including Bosses. Simple

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I fail to see how having to kill everything stops speedruns.

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Originally Posted by Akujin

"I will always hire a lazy person to do a difficult job, because they will always find the easiest way to finish it" - Bill Gates.

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is this why windows 8 is shit?