Personally, I'd rather you scrap the Armoury System then Lock 1 Job to 1 Weapon.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Wont be done with all of those till the end of august

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So let's discuss this in August + any delays

I read a couple of pages of this thread and got to thinking...

The creator of this threat seems to express that people will be missing out on THF due to daggers being locked out. Interestingly enough, who said a THF HAS to use daggers?
Remember FFX-2, while not the most conventional weapon, the THF dressphere got flim-flam as a weapon, a real oddity. But hey you gotta stop limiting yourselves to the traditional ffxi weapons.

Now as for Blue Mage, which hands down is my favorite class in the series, the scimitar weapon is locked out. But hey whos to say it cant use something else, let alone if the class get implemented.

Red mage and their rapiers have not been locked out, tho a rapier is a type of sword, it is a sword type not implemented.

EDIT:

Oh yeah and dont be so mad about 1:1, you know darn well when you played WAR you used a GA, when you played DRK you used a scyth, and when you played SAM you used a GK, being able to wield only one weapon per class isnt a crime, its actually a brilliant idea. The crime is lumping many weapon types into one catagory, using unfamiliar names to call the classes, then having little to no uniqueness with in the classes. We need diversity and thats something we liked about xi.

ya know mankind has made up more weapons than the few you've encountered in ffxi

stop trying to make this game ffxi and make it something new, the armory system works, its when you want it to be something else when it doesnt.

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Originally Posted by EdenArchangel

Does anyone actually like the 1 'class' : 1 weapon system?

Just add a menu button that lets you change your 'class' and proceed to equip any viable weapon/tool for that class.

All the freedom of being able to change classes in the field, and freedom to choose equipment.

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Technically the only reason they are called classes is because thats how it was localized. In the Japanese Version they are just weapons and don't even have special names. they are just "Sword User" "Axe User" etc.

We should have never called them classes, none of this confusion or rage against the armoury system would have exsisted. I'd have also not locked any skills from cross equipping, as that also leads to people thinking there "Has" to be uniqueness between the weapons when the weapons were already unique.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

I read a couple of pages of this thread and got to thinking...

The creator of this threat seems to express that people will be missing out on THF due to daggers being locked out. Interestingly enough, who said a THF HAS to use daggers?
Remember FFX-2, while not the most conventional weapon, the THF dressphere got flim-flam as a weapon, a real oddity. But hey you gotta stop limiting yourselves to the traditional ffxi weapons.

Now as for Blue Mage, which hands down is my favorite class in the series, the scimitar weapon is locked out. But hey whos to say it cant use something else, let alone if the class get implemented.

Red mage and their rapiers have not been locked out, tho a rapier is a type of sword, it is a sword type not implemented.

EDIT:

Oh yeah and dont be so mad about 1:1, you know darn well when you played WAR you used a GA, when you played DRK you used a scyth, and when you played SAM you used a GK, being able to wield only one weapon per class isnt a crime, its actually a brilliant idea. The crime is lumping many weapon types into one catagory, using unfamiliar names to call the classes, then having little to no uniqueness with in the classes. We need diversity and thats something we liked about xi.

ya know mankind has made up more weapons than the few you've encountered in ffxi

stop trying to make this game ffxi and make it something new, the armory system works, its when you want it to be something else when it doesnt.

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Uh, Flim Flams were Daggers. They just had special pommels and guards.

And no, I didn't always use a GA on Warrior, a GK on Samurai, Or a Scyth on DRK.

WAR, Depending on Subjob
If Thief - Great Axe, or Great Sword depending on targets.
If Dancer - Dual wield Axes and swords, or Great Axe, Retribution + Organics was a great combo for me
If Samurai - Great Axe, Pole Arm, Great Sword, Bow
If Ranger- Accuracy Daggers + Bow, Outdamaged Rangers constantly.

Samurai, Depending on Subjob or target.
Thief - Polearms and Great Katanas
Dancer - Great Katanas, Daggers, Swords, Polearms.
Warrior - Great Katanas and Polearms
etc.

Dark Knight
Thief - Great Sword
Black Mage - Scyth
Warrior - Great Sword
Ninja/dnc - Dual Axes and or swords

Paladin
Dancer - Dual Short Swords
Dragoon - Polearm
Warrior - Polearm or Sword and Board, sometimes Great Sword.

I never went to a party with only one weapon, and was willing to change weapons out constantly to present the best WS choices possible. Hell with Samurai, I could litterally swap in and out of weapons and skill chain myself with multiple weapons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Technically the only reason they are called classes is because thats how it was localized. In the Japanese Version they are just weapons and don't even have special names. they are just "Sword User" "Axe User" etc.

We should have never called them classes, none of this confusion or rage against the armoury system would have exsisted. I'd have also not locked any skills from cross equipping, as that also leads to people thinking there "Has" to be uniqueness between the weapons when the weapons were already unique.



Uh, Flim Flams were Daggers. They just had special pommels and guards.

And no, I didn't always use a GA on Warrior, a GK on Samurai, Or a Scyth on DRK.

WAR, Depending on Subjob
If Thief - Great Axe, or Great Sword depending on targets.
If Dancer - Dual wield Axes and swords, or Great Axe, Retribution + Organics was a great combo for me
If Samurai - Great Axe, Pole Arm, Great Sword, Bow
If Ranger- Accuracy Daggers + Bow, Outdamaged Rangers constantly.

Samurai, Depending on Subjob or target.
Thief - Polearms and Great Katanas
Dancer - Great Katanas, Daggers, Swords, Polearms.
Warrior - Great Katanas and Polearms
etc.

Dark Knight
Thief - Great Sword
Black Mage - Scyth
Warrior - Great Sword
Ninja/dnc - Dual Axes and or swords

Paladin
Dancer - Dual Short Swords
Dragoon - Polearm
Warrior - Polearm or Sword and Board, sometimes Great Sword.

I never went to a party with only one weapon, and was willing to change weapons out constantly to present the best WS choices possible. Hell with Samurai, I could litterally swap in and out of weapons and skill chain myself with multiple weapons.

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mkay. Im just sayin, most parties I had people used their optimal weapon for the job which, i commend you for not being one of those types of people. :]
It is what it is tho, it was RARE that i saw someone break weapon steriotype.
and yes, my flim flam idea was kinda stupid, but you gotta admit, xiv is kinda makin the weapon catagories quite broad.

Surprised more people haven't speculated about a Quistis Trepe....
You know, Whip class unlocking Blue Mage job later

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Surprised more people haven't speculated about a Quistis Trepe....
You know, Whip class unlocking Blue Mage job later

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Theres lots of weapons that have been used for different types of jobs over the years.

Blue Mage Alone has had the following weapon choices: Sword, Daggers, Axes, Spears, Whips, Books, Paintbrushes, Bells, Guns and many others.

FFXI decided on its own it wanted Scimitars to be Blue Mages storyline Weapon, but generally they had various and multiple weapons depending on the game.

Every Final Fantasy does tend to treat Jobs Differently, but its generally a part of the storyline.

Tifa Lockheart is a Monk because she was trained by one, "Zanghan" I believe his name was, Not specifically because she uses Hand to Hand Weapons and grappling limit breaks. This was a storyline limitation, the same as Khimari being a Blue Mage that used Spears, the majority of Rhonso's use spears as weapons.

In these single player games the basic character is designed for you. Their weapon is their favorite weapon, is part of the story as their weapon, or is characterized by their character themselves.

These story line lock outs make sense in the single player games because of one thing, Ease of Development and "CHARACTER" diversity. Each character is different because they use different weapons and have special backgrounds that define them as a Job from past FF's even if that job never used the weapon the character itself used. FFIX was the first FF to have Swallows (swords or Daggers attached both sides of a short polearm). FFXIII had a return of the Swallow as a Mix of a Polearm/staff and a Nun-tacku. Fang's weapon was unique to her, It wasn't really a Spear, or Polearm, but a collapsible Swallow, her unique Skills and Summon lead people to believe she is the personification of Dragoon in FFXIII. So one user of the Swallow weapon is a Thief and the other is a Dragoon, that is a huge Job Discrepancy. Even when weapons are defined and strict per character. Thief and Dragoon are completely different jobs at that point but in two different games use the same weapon.

But, when you move to a MMO and it is up to the PLAYER to define their "Character" limiting them to one weapon class choice per job is counter to the whole idea of MMO's, Players Define their Characters. Just because multiple people use similar load outs doesn't mean the choice is not unique. Because you can't say Squall and Seifer are not Unique from each other even though Both use Gunblades and aggressive tactics. It Just means multiple users have similar beliefs.

Restricting Choice in the illusion of helping give Classes, Weapons, or Jobs gain Uniqueness in a MMO actually REDUCES Uniqueness at this point. Why?

Because all Paladins use swords, every paladin will use swords. What is Unique about that in terms of "The Player Defines the Character" which is the core of the MMO scape?

I guess what I'm trying to say in my rambling is this.

There are multiple types of Uniqueness.

1. Uniqueness of Character - The Uniqueness and lack of intentional copies among various characters versus Each Other.

2. Uniqueness of Weapons - The Uniqueness of Weapons in Appearance and Functionality between each other. A Sword uses Slashing, a Club uses Blunt, etc.

3. Uniqueness of Class - The Uniqueness of a class versus other classes. Classes in most MMO's are a collection of similar Roles put under one name allowing the user to pick which role they want, in these games generally you can't change class once you create the character.

4. Uniqueness of Jobs - Simply Put Jobs have their own Roles in a Fight. A White Mage is a Healer. this will never change and never needs to be fixed.


What does this mean in FFXIV?

The Game Was advertised as allowing CHARACTER Uniqueness to the players. The Player is given the Choice of Class and Weapon which are fused to be one entity in the game, though I argue that Weapons should have never been called classes or given unique Names, and now in the future the Choice of Jobs.

But When you limit a Job, which is a Role, to a Weapon, which is a personal choice. You are not Instilling Character or Class Uniqueness but stifling it.

Currently A Paladin will always use Swords. Every Paladin in game uses swords, there is no Character Uniqueness, Everyone uses the same thing.

A Sword user will always be a Paladin, There again is no Character Uniqueness, Everyone who uses a sword uses Paladin as their job.

So the choices for Uniqueness in FFXIV are Character and Class(Weapon)/Job. The Game was Advertised as allowing for Character Uniqueness but this Job System denies it.

The Job System attempts to instill Class(Weapon) Uniqueness but Sacrifices Character Uniqueness to do so.

I propose this isn't Necessary, Because as has been said before Weapons are already Unique, this uniqueness needs to be better expanded outside of the "Class Structure." Again I'd propose to Remove the AOE variations and Toggles for each skill and instead give each Weapon a different system of how it distributes damage when using ANY skill in game.

When a character is in place in combat they receive a "Focused" Status (takes approximately 1-2 seconds to activate on its own) Once this status goes into effect all attacks change from Single Hit to the following Variables and changes. The AOE hits only targets who are engaged by the party to prevent unintentional Adds. This would mean that in a party when fighting a monster party, all members of the monster party need to be "engaged" when even only one is.

Axe Users (Marauder) - Turn all Skills into a 1 unit Arching AOE attack forward so if surrounded by 3 monsters they will hit all 3 but wont hit any monsters behind those monsters even if they are technically in range because the first monster blocks the attack. The More Monsters hit by a single skill will grant a bonus to the Damage to all of them.

Sword Users (Gladiator) - Turn all skills into Spike Damage single target attacks that deal Significantly more damage to a Single target depending on the number of monsters in the Fight, A Sword User fighting 3 monsters will do more damage per hit to one at a Time, the bonus going down as each one is killed.

Polearm Users (Lancer) - Turn all skills into a Line of Sight Attack that can push a skill through multiple targets in a straight line, allowing the user to hit a monster hiding behind another monster and hit up to 3 easily as well as piercing through armor and defense more easily on successive targets. So the 3rd Target in a line of 3 will take more damage the the one closest to the Polearm User.

Bow Users (Archer) - Use Skills at Range. Range increases as Focus lasts, so should the monster move out of range because the party shifts positions slightly the archer can still effectively hit from range. The farther an archer can stand out of range the higher a bonus to damage is granted. Inversely skills like "Blind Side" work even if attacking the monster from the front if attacking from range.

Fist User (Pugilist) - Can not AOE instead when they focus the entirety of the skill used into a single attack or punch which deals significant damage, but the effects and damage bonuses are delayed and turned into a DOT lasting over time instead of happening all at once.

Cone Magic Users (Thaumaturge) - Cast all magic in a Forward Facing Cone DOT Magics are more powerful and Single Hits are less So. No AOE if casted while Moving, AOE if standing still.

Circle Magic users (Conjurers) - Cast all magic as a Circle based Burst AOE, Single hit Magics are more powerful and DOT magics are less so. No AOE if casted while Moving, AOE if standing still.

There each weapon(Class) is now unique from the others and each one has a different way of operating. But a Weapon isn't a Job at this point. A Sword is simply a weapon that becomes stronger when more targets are part of the Fray but can only attack one of them at a time.

With this amount of Uniqueness per weapon there is no reason to limit a Job to one weapon, no I'd declare there is actually a necessity to allow each job to have access to all of them, or atleast ones that best fit. What would that mean?

If the Job can use weapon skills, focuses on physical damage they can use any DOW.
If the Job can use magic and meta magic they can use an DOM.
If the job is a hybrid they can use either DOW or DOM

What does that mean?

A Warrior (Physical Damage Specialist) can use any DOW.
A White Mage (Healing Magic Specialist) can use any DOM.
A Paladin (Tank Healing Hybrid) can use Either a DOW or a DOM.

With this system a Paladin's role is a Tank that uses healing Magics to assist in defense.

A Paladin can use a Sword to increase their damage against a single target when fighting more then one monster at a time increases the speed at which the primary target can be taken down while the other party members concentrate on downing the links and adds.

A Paladin can use a Axe to maintain hate on all the monsters around them in a fight easily.

A Paladin can use Cone Magic Casting weapon to deal Cone Holy and Healing magics to help maintain hate.

The Same Job does the Same Role, its unique to that Role no matter what weapon it uses, but the weapon allows the Character to become unique by defining HOW they perform that Role.

Longest post ever...

But yea... I'd like that...
If each job was limited to either discipline, or both in the case of hybrids...

I guess a happy medium would have been if they'd released a large amount of jobs.. like 2 to 4 per class initially... And came up with all manner of jobs ranging from DD, to tank, to enfeeble, to nuker to healer to support

I don't think this is how the system will work man. They have said before that quests will unlock jobs. So say you are a GLD and want to be a thf (which you seem to want a lot), there is nothing stopping you from doing the quests to unlock PLD and THF from GLD. SE said that the plan at the moment is to only have one job from one weapon but not that it will be that way forever, I think just for times sake ATM they have plan to impliment a single advanced job per base class. Also SE has said that jobs will more or less be "actions for lack of a better term" that you equip to yourself that allow you new abilites that only that job can use but in exchange you lose the ability to equip actions from other classes.

So the way I understand the system based on what SE has said...you could play a GLD until whatever rank they decide to let you unlock jobs, do a quest on GLD to unlock THF, equip your GLD with the THF JOB CLASS- equip a fricking dagger and be happy as a clam. Also whats to stop SE from saying that when eqipped with the job clasess THF, GLD can now use a crossbow or short bow without turning into an archer? Nothing is stopping that from being an equipable ability bistowed from the job THF. Eqiuping GLD with THF job would likely allow you to equip sneak attack and steal or whatever but you would lose the ability to equip curing magic from a THM now because you are playing as a set job now and no longer just a base class. Is this not how the rest of you see this system working? This is how I see the job system working.

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Originally Posted by Gojeran

I don't think this is how the system will work man. They have said before that quests will unlock jobs. So say you are a GLD and want to be a thf (which you seem to want a lot), there is nothing stopping you from doing the quests to unlock PLD and THF from GLD. SE said that the plan at the moment is to only have one job from one weapon but not that it will be that way forever, I think just for times sake ATM they have plan to impliment a single advanced job per base class. Also SE has said that jobs will more or less be "actions for lack of a better term" that you equip to yourself that allow you new abilites that only that job can use but in exchange you lose the ability to equip actions from other classes.

So the way I understand the system based on what SE has said...you could play a GLD until whatever rank they decide to let you unlock jobs, do a quest on GLD to unlock THF, equip your GLD with the THF JOB CLASS- equip a fricking dagger and be happy as a clam. Also whats to stop SE from saying that when eqipped with the job clasess THF, GLD can now use a crossbow or short bow without turning into an archer? Nothing is stopping that from being an equipable ability bistowed from the job THF. Eqiuping GLD with THF job would likely allow you to equip sneak attack and steal or whatever but you would lose the ability to equip curing magic from a THM now because you are playing as a set job now and no longer just a base class. Is this not how the rest of you see this system working? This is how I see the job system working.

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The thing I don't like is:

1 - Say GLA unlocks PLD at R30 you can keep levelling your GLA with your PLD to cap, if they raise the cap to 75 you go to 75 and have a PLD at cap as well. Then if they do add more Jobs to a class, say THF to GLA then you also have a THF at cap as well without doing anything apart from the unlock quest.

2 - I am tied to that weapon forever by the sounds of it. If they put DRK in the game it will probably come with a new weapon class of Scythe. So we will have a new class with some silly name that is a Scythe user (not Botanist) then at some point we unlock DRK, from then on I am tied to a Scythe forever. I can not equip a G. Sword on my DRK or any other weapon just Scythes thats it.

People say the freedom this Armoury system gives you is great but I just don't see it. Yeah for solo I suppose it is fantastic being able to put Cures on any Class but other than that it does nothing. To me it seems even more restrictive than FFXI's Job system and that is a step backwards in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

The thing I don't like is:

1 - Say GLA unlocks PLD at R30 you can keep levelling your GLA with your PLD to cap, if they raise the cap to 75 you go to 75 and have a PLD at cap as well. Then if they do add more Jobs to a class, say THF to GLA then you also have a THF at cap as well without doing anything apart from the unlock quest.

2 - I am tied to that weapon forever by the sounds of it. If they put DRK in the game it will probably come with a new weapon class of Scythe. So we will have a new class with some silly name that is a Scythe user (not Botanist) then at some point we unlock DRK, from then on I am tied to a Scythe forever. I can not equip a G. Sword on my DRK or any other weapon just Scythes thats it.

People say the freedom this Armoury system gives you is great but I just don't see it. Yeah for solo I suppose it is fantastic being able to put Cures on any Class but other than that it does nothing. To me it seems even more restrictive than FFXI's Job system and that is a step backwards in my opinion.

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Well many games you choose your class and thats it, so you're stuck with weapon/class/job for the entire game
Maybe SE is trying to balance freedom and restriction

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Originally Posted by Rydin

Well many games you choose your class and thats it, so you're stuck with weapon/class/job for the entire game
Maybe SE is trying to balance freedom and restriction

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They took 2 steps forward with the Armoury System for freedom of Player Choice in their character. But the Job System is 4 steps backwards.

Personally i wouldn't add any specialized job for classes. I would add just more classes. Armoury system i great Because it left it open to you what actions you will use. And at very end make possible to make your own class, but composing it from diffrent actions.
What I would change is to remove lock from one class to one weapon. It really idiotic. Just put skills that represent current classes, and make them develop trough using actions that are covered by skill. Simple as that.

At the very end only specialization i would add is.. You need certain skills on certain level and then you can chose prestige class.
I'd like also any form of full repspec and character templates, just forthe sake of ease you cloud save you stat distribution and action setup.

I'm going to assume that the reason they haven't given us the skinny on whether or not jobs will be perma-locked to specific classes in a 1-to-1 fashion(which is stupid) is because they're still running cost analysis and testing to see if they can actually do it. This of course going back to Yoshi's original statement of "won't make promises he can't keep" and all that.

I'm willing to say that if 1-to-1 remains the case, I'll be skipping out on playing the game any further out of principle let alone disinterest.

Conjurer and Thaumaturge get their own 1hd wands and their own 2hd staves... to say a thief can't use daggers/swords because a gladiator can use them in the same armory system is fail, period.

You guys know that there are many types of subvariations for different types of weapons, right?

Example: Within fencing alone there are rapiers, estocs, epees, and main gauches for parrying. As for other blade types, there are short swords, long swords, daggers, knives, katars, claymores, kris blades, kukris, etc.

Seriously, just go to wikipedia and look up weapon types. There are ways around this problem.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

You guys know that there are many types of subvariations for different types of weapons, right?

Example: Within fencing alone there are rapiers, estocs, epees, and main gauches for parrying. As for other blade types, there are short swords, long swords, daggers, knives, katars, claymores, kris blades, kukris, etc.

Seriously, just go to wikipedia and look up weapon types. There are ways around this problem.

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So how can a DRK use a Scythe, G.Sword, Sword, G.Axe under this new system?

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

So how can a DRK use a Scythe, G.Sword, Sword, G.Axe under this new system?

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Like I said before, what is stopping SE or this new system from putting in an ability that would work like a MRD using the job class DRK can gain or equip an ability that would allow a DRK to equip any of those weapons and not change jobs/classes. I gave an example before of how this "could work" with a THF would wanted to mix it up with both xbows and daggers.

Say: GLD "equips" THF job class which is unlocked an a certain rank via a quest. GLD now loses flexabilty to use abilities from other base classes such as THM or PUG (note don't confuse base classes with jobs). But GLD, using THF job class, gains THF job abilites one of which could read something along the lines of "GLD using THF job class can now equip and use xbows without turning into the Archer class." There is no reason given what we currently understand about the system why an ability such as this could not happen. Will it happen? that is another question entirely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gojeran

Like I said before, what is stopping SE or this new system from putting in an ability that would work like a MRD using the job class DRK can gain or equip an ability that would allow a DRK to equip any of those weapons and not change jobs/classes. I gave an example before of how this "could work" with a THF would wanted to mix it up with both xbows and daggers.

Say: GLD "equips" THF job class which is unlocked an a certain rank via a quest. GLD now loses flexabilty to use abilities from other base classes such as THM or PUG (note don't confuse base classes with jobs). But GLD, using THF job class, gains THF job abilites one of which could read something along the lines of "GLD using THF job class can now equip and use xbows without turning into the Archer class." There is no reason given what we currently understand about the system why an ability such as this could not happen. Will it happen? that is another question entirely.

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The Armoury system doesn't work like that. Classes are weapon specialisations not Jobs. GLA is a Sword user, this is where the confusion comes from and this is the problem. Classes are the weapons and that is why they are and have to be locked to them under the current rules of the Armoury system. So you could not have a MRD for example equip a lance/polearm, and that is the problem I have with the Armoury system and from the info we have been given Class and Job are locked together as it seems Jobs are not proper Jobs but just an extension of the Class that unlocks it to give it a more defined playstyle, ie GLA -> PLD makes it a straight up tanking role.

What I want is the removal of Weapon=Class and let the Classes actually be Jobs. So you are no longer defined by the weapon you wield, you are defined by the Job you are. So for example as a MRD you would learn all your skills, abilities and traits as the MRD but you would not need to use a G.Axe 24/7 to be one.

EXP would be your Job level and SP would be for your weapon level. Weapons would be for learning weaponskill's unique to that weapon and your level would also be your proficiency with the weapon. Under this system I could be a MRD and use a Polearm if I wanted or even a Sword but I would skill gain the MRD skills. Then if MRD unlocked WAR I would also be able to be a WAR that can use a variety of weapons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gojeran

Like I said before, what is stopping SE or this new system from putting in an ability that would work like a MRD using the job class DRK can gain or equip an ability that would allow a DRK to equip any of those weapons and not change jobs/classes. I gave an example before of how this "could work" with a THF would wanted to mix it up with both xbows and daggers.

Say: GLD "equips" THF job class which is unlocked an a certain rank via a quest. GLD now loses flexabilty to use abilities from other base classes such as THM or PUG (note don't confuse base classes with jobs). But GLD, using THF job class, gains THF job abilites one of which could read something along the lines of "GLD using THF job class can now equip and use xbows without turning into the Archer class." There is no reason given what we currently understand about the system why an ability such as this could not happen. Will it happen? that is another question entirely.

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I made this Suggestion. Its Called Use: Weapon. It was a set of skills in FFT.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...8FFT-Traits%29

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

The Armoury system doesn't work like that. Classes are weapon specialisations not Jobs. GLA is a Sword user, this is where the confusion comes from and this is the problem. Classes are the weapons and that is why they are and have to be locked to them under the current rules of the Armoury system. So you could not have a MRD for example equip a lance/polearm, and that is the problem I have with the Armoury system and from the info we have been given Class and Job are locked together as it seems Jobs are not proper Jobs but just an extension of the Class that unlocks it to give it a more defined playstyle, ie GLA -> PLD makes it a straight up tanking role.

What I want is the removal of Weapon=Class and let the Classes actually be Jobs. So you are no longer defined by the weapon you wield, you are defined by the Job you are. So for example as a MRD you would learn all your skills, abilities and traits as the MRD but you would not need to use a G.Axe 24/7 to be one.

EXP would be your Job level and SP would be for your weapon level. Weapons would be for learning weaponskill's unique to that weapon and your level would also be your proficiency with the weapon. Under this system I could be a MRD and use a Polearm if I wanted or even a Sword but I would skill gain the MRD skills. Then if MRD unlocked WAR I would also be able to be a WAR that can use a variety of weapons.

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I'm starting to wish I wasnt so vocal about them not just renaming the classes now and turning them into jobs.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I'm starting to wish I wasnt so vocal about them not just renaming the classes now and turning them into jobs.

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The alternative wasn't much, really.

I guess one could they chose one of the less....inspired ways to implement the jobs. What I dread most right now is where the hybrids are going to end up because of this. Well, more like, whether they'll be in-game at all or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AlexiaKidd

So how can a DRK use a Scythe, G.Sword, Sword, G.Axe under this new system?

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You let multiple classes equip different jobs. Which is ideally what SE is going to do eventually.

My point was just regarding the additions of extra classes and jobs that are perceived to have problems being introduced such as Thief.

Just change the word 'Job' to 'Spec' or Specialization. There, now the armory can stay.

they dont have to lock one job to one weapon con & thm have 2 weapons, and there both the same with different looks
mrd & bot have a type of axe.
nothing is stopping them from adding more of the same to other jobs.

type of weapons is the big thing here and there plenty of weapons in real life & ffxi world to choose from

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So how can a DRK use a Scythe, G.Sword, Sword, G.Axe under this new system?

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easy just make a different type of the weapon

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Originally Posted by indira

they dont have to lock one job to one weapon con & thm have 2 weapons, and there both the same with different looks
mrd & bot have a type of axe.
nothing is stopping them from adding more of the same to other jobs.

type of weapons is the big thing here and there plenty of weapons in real life & ffxi world to choose from


easy just make a different type of the weapon

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The Mages Weapons are actually how they cast AOE when they cast an AOE Spell. the Equipped Weapon is just a focus It helps them channel the energy into the cast.

Thaumaturges weapon is Cone AOE
Conjurers weapon is Circle AOE.

The differences between their Two hand and One hand equipments are null at that point.

This isn't even the issue. The issue is things like being able to be a Melee oriented PLD to tank based on damage dealt not just defensive skills. Marauder has defensive skills too.

The new dev team doesnt understand the concept of their own game.

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Originally Posted by Sovereign

Just change the word 'Job' to 'Spec' or Specialization. There, now the armory can stay.

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Then you'd have people complaining about them taking a term from WoW. It's lose-lose, really.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

Then you'd have people complaining about them taking a term from WoW. It's lose-lose, really.

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changing a word doesnt change its implementation.

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Originally Posted by giftforce

changing a word doesnt change its implementation.

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It does actually, The argument could be said for both class vs job and Market vs auction.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

It does actually, The argument could be said for both class vs job and Market vs auction.

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If the word 'job' is changed to 'specalisation' but the implementation still makes the armory system obsolete, then nothing is different.

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Originally Posted by giftforce

If the word 'job' is changed to 'specalisation' but the implementation still makes the armory system obsolete, then nothing is different.

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If they use jobs they have to make it resemble something like the past FF's

If the use specs they have to make it resemble specs from past mmos.

Thats the major difference.

Even if the basic implementation is the same it still will appear different. Just like calling the economic exchange system a Market over an Auction. Market implies the prices are set and there is no haggling. A Auction implies the price is not set and can go up based on others bidding, or because the seller put up the blind bid higher then the average sale price.

Both Systems exchange items but how they do it is different all because of the name.

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The Mages Weapons are actually how they cast AOE when they cast an AOE Spell. the Equipped Weapon is just a focus It helps them channel the energy into the cast.

Thaumaturges weapon is Cone AOE
Conjurers weapon is Circle AOE.

The differences between their Two hand and One hand equipments are null at that point.

This isn't even the issue. The issue is things like being able to be a Melee oriented PLD to tank based on damage dealt not just defensive skills. Marauder has defensive skills too.

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well SE can always do anything they want to the system, there already scrapping what we got now who knows whats comming later, most likely end up a ffxi-2 when there done.

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Originally Posted by indira

well SE can always do anything they want to the system, there already scrapping what we got now who knows whats comming later, most likely end up a ffxi-2 when there done.

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I don't think so.... SE wants to appeal to the 6,774,735,700 people on earth who didn't play FFXI
MMo's are more mainstream and popular than they were in 2002-2003
The console comes with a hard drive (you have no idea how huge this is)
The will (I hope) take the things from FFXI that every MMO needs...
Also take the inspiration and innovation from FFXI, the daring to do something different that has always been a part of FF...
the courage to stick by your vision... TO create art and not be deterred too much by the "business" end
Art imitates life... and life is about balance....
SE will find the balance of old and new, FFXI and new innovations... Pleasing players and staying true to the vision....

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Originally Posted by Rydin

SE will find the balance of old and new, FFXI and new innovations... Pleasing players and staying true to the vision....

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We can only hope, but the idea of a Job being locked to only one weapon, especially if it ends up being the weapon most people don't see a Job normally using, the real FF vets will get upset like me.

If all of a sudden Red Mage is a Lancer in game (Like Freya in FF9) Many people might get upset because Red Mage is supposed to use swords.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

We can only hope, but the idea of a Job being locked to only one weapon, especially if it ends up being the weapon most people don't see a Job normally using, the real FF vets will get upset like me.

If all of a sudden Red Mage is a Lancer in game (Like Freya in FF9) Many people might get upset because Red Mage is supposed to use swords.

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This would piss me off to the max as well. Going from one job being able to use a variety of weapon types to using only one weapon type is a huge downgrade. It is a downgrade not only from FFXI's system but a downgrade from every MMO ever created. I dont know a single MMO where a class/job can only use one weapon type. Not one. we need upgrades to combat, not downgrades.

I think setting a job should completely change you from being a class to being a job, and jobs should level up from level 1, separate from classes. This will make it real, and Jobs wouldn't be class-weapon dependent. I think its pretty stupid that job level = class level too. I sure as hell don't want to start off as a level 50 paladin or a level 50 black mage, depending on the class that unlocks it. As if i didn't have little enough to do already, now there not even gonna let me level the jobs.

SE... don't make this horrible mistake please.

*warning... I WILL be FLAMED FOR THIS*

Why don't we try to keep an open mind... whenever I go into a game.... Some brand new experience..
I don't say "God I hope this game is like [Insert favorite game here]

I am just happy for a new unique experience....

Let's, at the very least, give Yoshi's vision a chance...
We criticize the games lack of vision, and then fight against any semblance of direction that the developers want to add....

Saying what you'd like to see is fine... but we haven't even seen the first battle change and people are already crushing the system
Not one of us has tried out any jobs, or auto-attack or materia....

Open your mind to unique experience

How many games have we played where you were the same class (with the same weapon) for the entire game?
Its so much easier to balance that type of game then a game where you can do it all and hybrid everything....
So your favorite class might not have the weapon you like....
Well I want a space man with a ray gun and thats not happening either.... A game has to have limits or else it would never be released.... Limits define the game...
You can't be Master Chief or Sonic the Hedgehog in Eorzea... and that doesn't bother any of us... why? Because you weren't expecting Master Chief or Sonic
You see what happens? When you want a thief to have a dagger or a blue mage to have a scimitar so badly that you can taste it... then you set your self up for disappoint me... And no, the devs didn't disappoint you, you disappointed yourself

If you're still here, that means you want to see how SE handles this, what they can come up with because they've managed to capture greatness in past games...
So let's see how it turns out... SE isn't Verizon... you're not locked into a 2 year contract... so relax and let's enjoy the ride together...
Enjoy a brand new Final Fantasy with brand new mechanics and gameplay....

on a side note... Many classes/jobs had odd weapon combinations in the numbered titles....
Blue mages might have used Scimitars in FFXI... but they used polearms in X and whips in VIII and materia in VII

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

We can only hope, but the idea of a Job being locked to only one weapon, especially if it ends up being the weapon most people don't see a Job normally using, the real FF vets will get upset like me.

If all of a sudden Red Mage is a Lancer in game (Like Freya in FF9) Many people might get upset because Red Mage is supposed to use swords.

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Wait, what? Freya was a red mage? I do not recall her casting any white or black magic.

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Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel

Wait, what? Freya was a red mage? I do not recall her casting any white or black magic.

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Freya was a dragoon

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Here is why I refute these assertions that the current system can't allow for thief (or any other job role for that matter). There is no law or rule that a thief has to use a dagger. None. SE has two options here as far as I see it to accomplish implementation of the THF job role in the game.

1. They add more job options later to the current classes. Their current thinking is 1 job for 1 class. But what does that mean really? For now? To start? Or maybe they really mean that they only want 1 job per class ever. They could change their mind later, in any case.

2. They can add more classes to the game later, one of which could be given a job to unlock named Thief. That class could use another weapon entirely, or a cousin to the dagger. There are plenty of them out there. In fact, the name of the weapon hardly matters. It could be called a doodad or a widget. The name is pretty irrelevant. Whatever it is called, it will be a completely unique weapon specific to the class that unlocks the THF job role. We already see this in game. THM and CON both use staves of some sort. However, on CON they are called radials. When you get down to the base of it, these are both staves. Long, blunt weapons that are held in a two-handed fashion. But in the games eyes, they are different from one another and exclusive to their classes. There is no reason why this could not be done for the dagger too. Like I've mentioned previously, they could introduce a weapon like the kukri, or the shiv, etc. The class that unlocks the hypothetical THF job role could easily use a weapon like this.

I'd like to hear a single logical argument as to why this is not a possibility that SE could use in the future.

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Yeah I know this is a really late reply but I was away for awhile and I wanted to address this really quickly just to get my complete thoughts in on the matter.

1: Yes it's totally possible SE can open the system up in the future and make it more then one weapon to one job but that doesn't seem to be their intent based on what Yoshi-P and others on the Dev team have been saying. Can that change? Sure it's always possible but as it stands now 1 weapon to one job seems to be the case and now is what we are talking about not years down the road.

2: Yeah they could add new classes and weapon(like Kukri which i like quite a bit) to accommodate the new job they want to add. But why? It's such a bother. Lets go back to the THF example again. First off nearly every image of THF in any game has them using a dagger.(which yes can be a Kukri but this isn't my main point) Be a assassin a rouge or a THF they tend to use dagger as a main weapon. Now we already discussed the dagger isn't a dagger but is a sword in FFXIV but lets just say they add in another(and this adds to the random unneeded confusion) Dagger(or Kukri) just for THF. The problem here is that the class will become a job and needs abilities from rank 1-50(and higher once the cap goes up) But nearly every ability related to being a THF or a dagger wielding job is used on the other weapons because they never intended to have a THF in the game. This causes problems because assuming they want to add it they need to make the defining abilities of the job part of the class instead just so it has things to learn and then the job won't seem as defined as it should. Now one could add they could add in new stuff that is new to THF but wouldn't that go against the reason they are making jobs in the first place? Players not only wanted a more defined class or job system but they wanted the Final Fantasy Jobs back and that means those jobs should play like they have in past games(to a extent they can still shake it up a little)

Now as I said if they were to drop the whole armory system they could in turn completely redo what spells and abilities go on what jobs and the weapon to job issue would not be a problem anymore. The problem here is they are trying to build a new job or class system on top of one that was based on a concept that will no longer exist and is only holding it back.(As Alexia said) And while it's true there are tweaks and changes they can make to that job system to allow the jobs players want that doesn't mean it won't be needlessly confusing or convoluted.

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Originally Posted by RabidSquirrel

Wait, what? Freya was a red mage? I do not recall her casting any white or black magic.

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Freya was not Intentionally a Red Mage no, She wasn't a Dragoon Either. She did wear the Red Mage Get up, but she used skills that were previously considered "Blue Magic" in some past games and used a spear.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

Freya was not Intentionally a Red Mage no, She wasn't a Dragoon Either. She did wear the Red Mage Get up, but she used skills that were previously considered "Blue Magic" in some past games and used a spear.

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Quina was the Blue mage
Freya had all the jump and dragon killer stuff with the spears...