Order of the Blue Garter Twintania Down (No Exploits)

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Originally Posted by Lady_Shadowi

So the main tank standing in the Conflag circle, getting stunned, and causing the boss to stand there and not attack isn't glitching the fight? A boss standing there trying to attack an unattackable player seems kinda like something that isn't working as intended to me...

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Interesting. That definitely seems to be the case. Trivial or no, it's a little silly to see that all strategies for that portion rely on exploiting bugs.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

...the way to avoid Divebombs is probably not ment to be done like that...

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Undoubtedly not intended. It's not a glitch, though, just a clever use of coordination. Players finding unintended strategies is par for the course for video games in general. Yoshi-P already admitted that PLD CDs were being used in unintended ways to clear content.

I love how it is like a dance when they are in synch together with their twister moves. Very hypnotizing. Speaking of which, is that the original music for the content or is it put with the video?

thanx

Congrats! :)

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Originally Posted by VidulaSaix

So am I to understand the the Twister just auto kills whoever it happens to target? If so, I would assume it would never target the Main Tank similar to Titan's Goal ability. Would this assumption be correct?

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no, the assumption is incorrect. twister can target anyone, it targets the tank in the video.

however, twister is avoidable...barely. in the video, the scholar that the point of view is coming from dodges most of the time, and everyone else dodged the mechanic always.

Congrats! was it a conscious decision at the start of coil to put all the Allagan gear on the main tank? looking at the lodestone, the off tank has almost entirely crafted gear.

I firmly believe that the clockwise movement to avoid tornadoes in Garuda is a hint to understand this :P

Also the Clockwork enemies in T3 as well :P

I noticed in the video that the Dreadknight mechanic bugged out for you guys as well? Have you found any common reason for it? We haven't been able to replicate it consistently, but it just seems to often break after the first one.

We have been trying to avoid this, but I imagine you just gave up on them too?

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

Interesting. That definitely seems to be the case. Trivial or no, it's a little silly to see that all strategies for that portion rely on exploiting bugs.

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Does everything that allows you to avoid damage have to be a bug or an exploit? In the same way you could say that running into conflags to avoid fireball damage is the same thing.

Running into conflags makes you essentially invincible for the duration it's up, while not allowing you to take any actions, why shouldn't the tank use this to give the healers a short break and save some MP?

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Originally Posted by ZatchStar

Congrats! was it a conscious decision at the start of coil to put all the Allagan gear on the main tank? looking at the lodestone, the off tank has almost entirely crafted gear.

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The off-tank looks like he's geared much more for DPS than for straight tanking, which I guess is the intention.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Does everything that allows you to avoid damage have to be a bug or an exploit? In the same way you could say that running into conflags to avoid fireball damage is the same thing.

Running into conflags makes you essentially invincible for the duration it's up, while not allowing you to take any actions, why shouldn't the tank use this to give the healers a short break and save some MP?

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While placing anyone in a conflag making them invincible may seem like an exploit, the consequences of not defeating the conflagration in time will kill everyone in side of it thus creating a risk/reward mechanic. If the conflag bursts with your tank inside you're essentially going to wipe. I'm not SE and this is just my opinion. If you place your tank in the conflag and then sleep it I would consider that an exploit.

Congratulations to all of the members of BG.

That is so unbelievably cheesy until you get to the twister phase.

But you pulled the last bit off pretty well, so good job.

Wow, big congrats to you guys!

Congrats!!

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Originally Posted by Lodiodrive

While placing anyone in a conflag making them invincible may seem like an exploit, the consequences of not defeating the conflagration in time will kill everyone in side of it thus creating a risk/reward mechanic. If the conflag bursts with your tank inside you're essentially going to wipe. I'm not SE and this is just my opinion. If you place your tank in the conflag and then sleep it I would consider that an exploit.

Congratulations to all of the members of BG.

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Except it's not risk/reward, there are no healing debuffs going out on the tank and no healing period to be done, healers can dps conflags. Boss is literally flying there doing nothing, if a boss isn't able to hit the highest person on threat, it should go find something else to beat on even if just the offtank. The fact that she does nothing clearly shows a bugged script since she really just stops working in that time and this is exploitable. This is just as bad as sleeping the conflags and having them never go off. This fight has way too many gimmicky mechanics that are either bugged/exploited or terribly designed. I'm leaning towards the latter.

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/stuff about tank running into conflag

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I wouldn't say this is an exploit, but it is extremely cheesy (some cheese is definitely necessary for world firsts though). SE really did a poor job designing their Mob AI if it will keep attacking an invincible player...seems like the boss should/would move to the next most threatening when it can't do any damage to the target.

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Running into conflags makes you essentially invincible for the duration it's up, while not allowing you to take any actions, why shouldn't the tank use this to give the healers a short break and save some MP?

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I have not done Coil and do not know the specifics of the battle -- I would not have even noticed the method had Lady_Shadowi not pointed it out. As best I can tell, however, it does not seem intended that the Conflagration cause the opponent to stop attacking altogether. That is not a strategy to deal with an opponent, it is deliberately disabling expected AI functions for a duration. It appears to be no different than the exploit used to clear the dungeon previously, except that this bug does not persist until the end of the battle. Perhaps I am wrong and this is intended behavior, but it seems rather unlikely.

//EDIT: I mean, for a fight with insane insta-death dance party mechanics, it sure would be weird if they just decided that it was OK for the player to trololo through that part of the fight by standing in a fire. :confused:

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Originally Posted by Horg

I wouldn't say this is an exploit, but it is extremely cheesy (some cheese is definitely necessary for world firsts though). SE really did a poor job designing their Mob AI if it will keep attacking an invincible player...seems like the boss should/would move to the next most threatening when it can't do any damage to the target.

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Using this "bug" causing her scripts to temporarily fail or bug is clearly exploiting this bug, there is no way to sugar coat that. What raid boss in the entire history of MMO's tries to attack an invincible target....? That's right, none. Sure they killed it, but the title of no exploits is simply not true. Like the above post, the tank logging out like before is no different from this, except her script will resume when the tank comes out of conflag rather than just being offline the entire fight. This thread is a bunch of lol. Whether or not the community actually accepts this as a legit kill remains to be seen(imo it isn't), if this were the WoW community, knowingly using exploits like this would be an assured ban like it's been done many times in the past.

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Originally Posted by Onolock

Using this "bug" causing her scripts to temporarily fail or bug is clearly exploiting this bug, there is no way to sugar coat that. What raid boss in the entire history of MMO's tries to attack an invincible target....? That's right, none. Sure they killed it, but the title of no exploits is simply not true. Like the above post, the tank logging out like before is no different from this, except her script will resume when the tank comes out of conflag rather than just being offline the entire fight. This thread is a bunch of lol. Whether or not the community actually accepts this as a legit kill remains to be seen(imo it isn't), if this were the WoW community, knowingly using exploits like this would be an assured ban like it's been done many times in the past.

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All of this butthurt crying exploit.. For all you know its intended to work that way for the reason of providing a break to the healer. It is risk/reward because if you cant kill the conflag the main tank drops. How is that hard to understand? Just because there is no damage going out doesn't mean there isn't the potential for a battle-ending event to happen, which is the whole purpose of bosses dealing damage in the first place. There are alot of mechanics SE employs in their raids in XI which aren't conventional like this and sure, you don't have to use them.. but it makes the fight much harder. Go back to wow if you want your easy mode raids.

Just to illustrate my point in XI many raid level bosses have certain weaknesses which stun them for up to 10 seconds or even longer if you can manage to chain them. NO ONE is taking damage when this happens and the boss still is.

I've seen Titan try to attack people who have been gaol'd if they're on the top of the hatelist (usually because the main tank just died). Twintania has been programmed to attack the person at the top of the hatelist, regardless of their status, just like every other mob in the entire game. Working as intended.

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

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The fact that you say WoW has "easy mode raids" sort of invalidates anything you say.

But yea, What's with all the hate? I don't think what they did was an exploit in any way.

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Originally Posted by CrashQQ

The fact that you say WoW has "easy mode raids" sort of invalidates anything you say.

Although I find the kill extremely legitimate and have no problem with what they did.

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Really? You think WoW has hard raids? Go look at the progression % rates and compare it to XIV or XI and get back to me. rofl. WoW is a joke kid.

Seige of Ogrimmar ["Hard Mode"] (Newest raid instance) -- Complete dungeon released October 22 (It was released in phases). Completed by 19 guilds as of october 28.
Binding Coil of Bahamut - Released with XIV Release. Completed by 1 group of 8 people legitimately (On a legacy server which had a significant gear/level advantage to non-legacy).

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

Really? You think WoW has hard raids? Go look at the progression % rates and compare it to XIV or XI and get back to me. rofl. WoW is a joke kid.

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WoW did have hard raids...excluding a few tiers of content, WOTLK Naxx for example (not sure about Pandaland and end Cata)...and you can't compare WoW to other MMOs on a progression % basis considering how many more subscribers WoW has/had compared to the other MMOs.

WoW raids from Vanilla through BC were insanely fun and challenging...but didn't require you to zerg a boss for 18 hours straight like a MMO zombie with no life.

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

All of this butthurt crying exploit.. For all you know its intended to work that way for the reason of providing a break to the healer. It is risk/reward because if you cant kill the conflag the main tank drops. How is that hard to understand? Just because there is no damage going out doesn't mean there isn't the potential for a battle-ending event to happen, which is the whole purpose of bosses dealing damage in the first place.

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It's a very fine line, I think that the boss should definitely go to the next on the threat list whenever the tank is in conflag and the fireball should definitely still get used by twin while the target is in conflag. I'm not sure what SE was thinking when they designed the AI, essentially stepping into that conflag bugs the boss out while the conflag is active and her targets are inside it. If that was intended then it was pretty poor design. I'd still give them a legit kill, and definitely congratulations, very creative use of the boss mechanics...but it was full of super cheesiness through the first half.

*Edit* Poor boss design and testing isn't BG's fault, if using the conflag that way was not intended, it was not obvious. This kind of stuff happens often with world firsts, if it needs fixing then SE will do it...within the next few years...

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

All of this butthurt crying exploit.. For all you know its intended to work that way for the reason of providing a break to the healer. It is risk/reward because if you cant kill the conflag the main tank drops. How is that hard to understand? Just because there is no damage going out doesn't mean there isn't the potential for a battle-ending event to happen, which is the whole purpose of bosses dealing damage in the first place. There are alot of mechanics SE employs in their raids in XI which aren't conventional like this and sure, you don't have to use them.. but it makes the fight much harder. Go back to wow if you want your easy mode raids.

Just to illustrate my point in XI many raid level bosses have certain weaknesses which stun them for up to 10 seconds or even longer if you can manage to chain them. NO ONE is taking damage when this happens and the boss still is.

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First of all, nothing in Coil has been anything very difficult or anything that anyone hasn't seen in WoW or even other games. Rift had more difficult mechanics than FF14 has, and the only reason Coil is challengening is because it's tuned for much higher gear. When people are in 80 gear, Coil is going to be an absolute joke which it already is. Progression content is always going to force you to play your best in any game; even the massive competition for world first in WoW is based on guild skill, not gimmicky mechanics.

2nd, this isn't FFXI and not even any kind of design team that was around for that. Comparing the two games is just as well dumb and ignorant. It's already been shown what the boss did when she was bugged before, the same thing happens with this, so it's pretty easy to conclude that isn't intended.

Who's crying? I'm simply pointing out the facts, if you get out of your fanboy mode for a minute, you might read and understand what other people are saying.

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Originally Posted by Horg

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You are not negating boss mechanics by stuffing your tank in the conflag.. The mechanic in question is the conflag instantly killing people. Which it still does unless you sleep it (A bug) or kill it. (not a bug). Just because damage is not coming in does not make it an exploit or unintended, in fact its more likely that its intended to be that way since -EVERY- other monster in the game behaves in the same way.

Also: We aren't comparing raids today to raids of old. Pandemonium Warden would make you cry and rage quit the thread. Stick to whats current.

To Onolock: The same developers for battle content for XI Today (Alduin) are the same ones designing content for XIV. If you can't tell the difference between logging out (and PERMANENTLY) bugging the boss, to a temporary and still very deadly mechanic then you're hopeless. Lol.

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Originally Posted by CrashQQ

The fact that you say WoW has "easy mode raids" sort of invalidates anything you say.

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Don't feed the troll. When a post begins with an insult to other players, there's not likely to be anything of value to follow.

Anyway, some people noticed some odd behavior -- the enemy failing to attack when it otherwise should be attacking. That seems to be either a large oversight or a bug. One way or the other, it's disabling enemy actions (including random-targeted fireballs) for the duration of a DPS check, freeing healers to DPS if necessary and trivializing the section.

//EDIT: Actually, the fight is a great example. A healer is targeted by the Conflagration, reducing healing output. Instead of having one healer dealing with fireballs and tank damage while any DPS loss can mean the targeted player dies, this allows everyone gets to sit around and fire away at the Conflagration unimpeded. It seems unlikely to me that this could be intended, and the total inaction of the opponent suggests it is an AI bug -- if it were merely an oversight, you would expect Twintania to continue attacking for the duration and simply deal no damage.

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Originally Posted by Onolock

whining

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You're right, Coil is such a joke that you cleared all five turns long ago. Wait...

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

You are not negating boss mechanics by stuffing your tank in the conflag.. The mechanic in question is the conflag instantly killing people. Which it still does unless you sleep it (A bug) or kill it. (not a bug). Just because damage is not coming in does not make it an exploit or unintended, in fact its more likely that its intended to be that way since -EVERY- other monster in the game behaves in the same way.

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The mob attacking yes, though it doesn't seem correct, it is in fact how SE designed the game...poorly. However, by stepping into conflag to completely negate the fireball is completely different, that seems to be very close to exploit since a mechanic is being circumvented through, what is assumed, unintended means.

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

Really? You think WoW has hard raids? Go look at the progression % rates and compare it to XIV or XI and get back to me. rofl. WoW is a joke kid.

Seige of Ogrimmar ["Hard Mode"] (Newest raid instance) -- Complete dungeon released October 22 (It was released in phases). Completed by 19 guilds as of october 28.
Binding Coil of Bahamut - Released with XIV Release. Completed by 1 group of 8 people legitimately (On a legacy server which had a significant gear/level advantage to non-legacy).

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wat

if you've done heroic raiding in WoW, you would know coil is a joke when compared to heroic raiding (normal raiding is probably harder),also, you're comparing game release final boss vs current WoW final game boss. you know how long it took when WoW was released to kill ragnaros? WoW was released Nov 23 2004, world first ragnaros kill was april 25 2005.

granted,heroic garrosh may not be the most difficult WoW boss, but if I'm progressing on twintania right now (mind you, this ain't even an fc progression, just a random unkown LS that raids once a week) and I haven't even progressed 60% of the current heroic WoW content right now(4x a week, 3-4 hours each day), I'm sure as hell garrosh is a lot harder than twintania.

edit/add: ALSO, how many weeks has twintania been down for fixes? I'm quite sure BG would have gotten the kill earlier if all these downtime weren't there.

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Originally Posted by Horg

WoW did have hard raids...excluding a few tiers of content, WOTLK Naxx for example (not sure about Pandaland and end Cata)...and you can't compare WoW to other MMOs on a progression % basis considering how many more subscribers WoW has/had compared to the other MMOs.

WoW raids from Vanilla through BC were insanely fun and challenging...but didn't require you to zerg a boss for 18 hours straight like a MMO zombie with no life.

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Yeah, WoW had raids that were just straight up broken as well (AQ40)

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Originally Posted by Laryndra

You are not negating boss mechanics by stuffing your tank in the conflag.. The mechanic in question is the conflag instantly killing people. Which it still does unless you sleep it (A bug) or kill it. (not a bug). Just because damage is not coming in does not make it an exploit or unintended, in fact its more likely that its intended to be that way since -EVERY- other monster in the game behaves in the same way.

Also: We aren't comparing raids today to raids of old. Pandemonium Warden would make you cry and rage quit the thread. Stick to whats current.

To Onolock: The same developers for battle content for XI Today (Alduin) are the same ones designing content for XIV. If you can't tell the difference between logging out (and PERMANENTLY) bugging the boss, to a temporary and still very deadly mechanic then you're hopeless. Lol.

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Nobuaki Komoto (河本 信昭, Komoto Nobuaki?) is credited for directing Final Fantasy XI. He was also credited for directing Final Fantasy XIV, but after the game's poor reception, he was dropped in favour of Naoki Yoshida.

The only person in any key positions which are responsible for the game's ultimate decisions and direction is not around anymore. The design team is entirely different, you are incorrect. Everything you are talking about makes no sense in any way at all. Making a boss completely stop doing all abilities they are supposed to be doing is 100% a bug. You need to soak fireballs to lengthen the amount of time conflags have to be killed, so having 3 people soak(you can put pets in there to soak too) and then the tank running in makes it so 6 people can fully dps the conflag compared to having 4 people with the healers having to still heal the tank(intended mechanic because you SHOULD have the dps to kill it, which they probably don't and why they felt the need to exploit). Normally the healers will be needing to heal and can't take time to do any dps, so not having any healing to do at all and bypassing this mechanic is a BUG. You obviously don't know the fight at all, so just please, stop talking.

If every other mob in the game were meant to act this way, then when a paladin uses Invuln, the mob should stop and just do nothing right?....Oh wait, they don't they keep attacking and using abilities like normal. The fact is the boss is expecting to use the abilities in the script, but can't because it isn't programmed to go look for any one else high on threat(mistake on SE), so the boss just sits there and does nothing at all. BUG, knowingly using this = exploit.

congratulations

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Originally Posted by Avalon_Albrook

unoriginal fanboy rebuttal

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Ignorant and says nothing constructive of anything actually said in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Onolock

Ignorant and says nothing constructive of anything actually said in the thread.

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Okay, you're making this thread about the responses in this thread and the debate around the design of encounters.

Please make you're own thread about this.

You're basically allowing yourself to get trolled by SE for not figuring out yourself a relatively simple (and clever) mechanic and then being mad at them for creating it.

I'm not a fanboy. I just like to point and laugh at the deranged.

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Originally Posted by HiirNoivl

Okay, you're making this thread about the responses in this thread and the debate around the design of encounters.

Please make you're own thread about this.

You're basically allowing yourself to get trolled by SE for not figuring out yourself a relatively simple (and clever) mechanic and then being mad at them for creating it.

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Taking advantage and using "clever" mechanics to kill things isn't legit, which I am merely commenting the way they accomplished a kill. This thread has everything to do with design, cause now SE has visual proof the fight is broken. All the way to 50% the boss not once ever casts Death Sentence, she starts to cast it at 05:55 but it's interrupted because the tank runs in and a target can no longer be found for it. If this was intended, she should cast it the second he comes out, but her script is essentially reset as she just dropped her link, and that 30-40 sec expires until she can cast it again, but no target is found each time. This completely negates the healing debuff and tank swap mechanic. There is absolutely no way this is intended, and anyone who believes it is rather hopeless.

The way the bugged kill previously was attained is nothing different than what is accomplished here, the boss AI has no way of executing the script until the tank comes out of conflag. Previously, the target would go offline and the boss would just sit there the exact same way as this. Sure they fixed the offline bug, but this is an entirely different bug, but with the same effect. She could never recover because the original target was never online again. Titan was bugged exactly this way too.

There is nothing to figure out here, anyone who knows the fight can see easily this isn't intended.

I highly suggest you guys take this discussion elsewhere. Make your own thread or something. Seriously.

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Originally Posted by Onolock

Taking advantage and using "clever" mechanics to kill things isn't legit,

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Well, you can still use your "Legit" strategy if you want to lol.

Good luck with that. Just because a boss starts casting a spell doesn't mean it has to land. Just ask poor Psychflayer. That sap never gets to use Void Thunder.

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Originally Posted by Sylvanna

I highly suggest you guys take this discussion elsewhere. Make your own thread or something. Seriously.

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Why? The facts need to be known in this thread because the legit kill that is claimed really isn't. This thread is the proof that SE needs, so if anything, it should be highly visible to them.

To me at least it seems like this is something of an unintentional mechanic. SE's given its stance that any tactic that immobilizes a boss or prevents it from attacking(in the case where an enemy can't be CCed or something) then it's probably considered an exploit. The difference in this case is that the boss is rendered unable to attack only for the duration that the tank is stunned in the conflag and then it resumes its normal pattern.

If in a similar case in Titan if one of the healers were placed inside a gaol and somehow the tank was able to prevent Titan from attacking him and negating any period of solo healing until the gaol was broken people would cry foul there. Whether this instance with Twintania would be considered the same, given SE's past actions I'll say probably but that's up to them.