Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

Nobody has commented on it yet, so I'm just going to put this out there. Every time I read the term "pure healer," I read it as: healer who has nothing to offer outside the basic functionality of all healer jobs.
Nobody in FFXIV wants a pure healer.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

I'm of the opinion that it shouldn't be a hybrid job at all. Both Secs should be completely removed. AST shields, if any, shouldn't be anywhere near SCH's. It's identity should have just been providing buffs to the party with cards. I think the lord and lady card mechanics is pretty good. That should defiantly stay

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I don't think that AST needs their sects removed. The original idea for them was that if you didn't have a WHM or a SCH an AST could bring the utility (HoTs/Shields) of the missing class at a slightly lower level and to compensate for that here, have some card buffs! That idea is still a good idea to have. The problem has come in that their HoTs and Shields are comparable (or better) than the classes they originally adopted them from on top of all that utility. The trick for AST is to figure out a way to scale that back a little bit without returning them to the low point they were at in early HW.

Honestly WHM is overall lacking in utility and identity, SCH just had one of it's big draws (AoE dps) nerfed heavily, and AST is overtuned compared to the rest of us. It shouldn't be about taking things away from these classes as that is how we end up all homogenized together. We need to keep the things that set us apart from each other.

SCH shields should be THE standard for healing shields cementing them as the mitigation healer coupled with, a decent dps kit, and strategic buffs like the crit up from Chain Strategem and you know what, even Haste since it works better with their class identity in FFXIV.
AST is and should be the swiss army knife, providing a variety of buffs and their sects that allow them to cover the gaps the other healers leave open WITHOUT eclipsing them entirely. Their shields should be a little weaker, their HoTs a little less potent, but their basic heals should remain competitive.
WHM is the iconic FF healer, bringing potent and reliable heals backed up a few unique support skills like Auto-Raise and Reflect (there are a ton of buffs not in game we could be using).

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Originally Posted by justaminuet

Suggesting to nerf spells on a job that has been so nerfed, that we now have a forum thread that's almost 2,000+ posts long complaining about its state? Not a good idea.

Not to mention, White Mage is supposed to be the "pure healer," according to Yoshi-P. Nerfing healing spells on such a job is counterintuitive.

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People are exaggerating the nerf.....
If you're the kind of WHM that MUST have all your skills that you currently have now then you'll reach into the cross class system and get them all bk
Which means the only things that would be considered a "nerf" is your lost of E4E, new cleric stance*(which is already meh...at least it's something), and the 10% nerf on "Divine heal" with an additonal 30 sec recast, and the lost of stoneskin. And cross-class blm ability Surecast.

your current cross class abilities now as whm are what? Virus, E4E, Surecast, Swift Cast, and bliz 2*??

to keep in the future all that your core abilities you have now you'd replace e4e with esuna, surecast with protect, virus(which u can't use anymore) with largesse, still have Swiftcast, and whatever your 5 was with Lucid Dreaming. Something that You dont need to do at all if we're being technical. Both healers dont need protect both healers dont need esuna. In dungeons often you dont need esuna. Also in dungeon you can make it out just fine without largesse! (healing isn't that serious in dung).

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

Nobody has commented on it yet, so I'm just going to put this out there. Every time I read the term "pure healer," I read it as: healer who has nothing to offer outside the basic functionality of all healer jobs.
Nobody in FFXIV wants a pure healer.

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The ONLY way I'd want a PURE HEALER is if the healer provides so much healing that it would be able to primarily do damage and its damage dealt would be scaled really high. Another would be if the job's heals also did damage to the boss and other enemies as well (AOE). Both could make the job OP if done incorrectly.

i.e

Pure White - Lvl 70 Skill 90s cd

Grants healing over time effect to all allies within a 30y radius.

Cure Potency: 150
Duration: 21s

Effect also deals damage with a potency of 15-20 per tick/per ally affected by it to target and all enemies nearby it.


Basically, it would be a regen on everyone in the party, and every time the regen heals someone it does about 15-20 potency damage per tick thats AOE damage. So essentially it'll passively do around 120-160 damage potency per tick which equates to 840-1,120 damage potency over the duration of the effect. This added on top of the stone/assize you're currently throwing out. This is something I literally thought of like 40 seconds ago and would make WHM damage potentially so high, that it wouldn't be too far off behind the 20%/10% spread balance from AST in regards to outgoing damage. It could be scaled in a way that it will still make whm inferior raid dps wise and not be meta, however it will still be able to stand its own and "defend" its place in the raiding community - unlike right now. It will also be able to heal so much that it can do tons of damage. Its utility can be similar to SAM, which means just high damage versus buffing. If something like this were to happen, aggro generation would be huge so to combat this I think giving assize a "shadewalker" effect would be good. That way every 60s when you use the skill it would transfer all aggro generated by you to the #1 person on the enmity list. You'd have both Lucid and Assize to reduce aggro generation. I also am of the belief that Assize should be buffed to combat Earthly Star's potency. Instead of a 300 potency heal 300 potency damage it should be 400-500 potency healing and 400-500 potency damage. This would only be to match Earthly Star's current max-potency of 900 healing/200 aoe damage.





Other than something similar to this I wouldn't want a pure healer in this game.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

Nobody has commented on it yet, so I'm just going to put this out there. Every time I read the term "pure healer," I read it as: healer who has nothing to offer outside the basic functionality of all healer jobs.
Nobody in FFXIV wants a pure healer.

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Every time I see this comment I assume we forget WHM is designed to have a simple play-style, low skill ceiling, and able to complete all content. You start adding more complexity to that and you change the identity of the class drastically (arguably these lily/confession systems can potentially cause just that unwanted complexity that is in opposition to WHM identity?!) :(

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Originally Posted by javid

Every time I see this comment I assume we forget WHM is designed to have a simple play-style, low skill ceiling, and able to complete all content. You start adding more complexity to that and you change the identity of the class drastically (arguably these lily/confession systems can potentially cause just that unwanted complexity that is in opposition to WHM identity?!) :(

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Woah now, I'm just one person wishing WHM stood a fair chance in the raid game. Why does one job have to be singled out to be for new players only and not for serious gameplay?

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Both healers dont need protect both healers dont need esuna. In dungeons often you dont need esuna. Also in dungeon you can make it out just fine without largesse!

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People always assume two healers. With one healer, Whm's are back to their core abilities they lost.

And besides that, who wants to be switching in and out skills? I don't. Muscle memory. Switching in and out skills... pft... There goes hitting everything wrong.

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Originally Posted by javid

Every time I see this comment I assume we forget WHM is designed to have a simple play-style, low skill ceiling, and able to complete all content. You start adding more complexity to that and you change the identity of the class drastically (arguably these lily/confession systems can potentially cause just that unwanted complexity that is in opposition to WHM identity?!) :(

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What complexity?

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Originally Posted by Seraphyna

People always assume two healers. With one healer, Whm's are back to their core abilities they lost.

And besides that, who wants to be switching in and out skills? I don't. Muscle memory. Switching in and out skills... pft... There goes hitting everything wrong.

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I would like the ability to create a cross-role skill set macro. Like, you press the macro and it quickly swaps all your cross role abilities to a new set.

You don't balance gameplay around perceived execution skill requirements​. You balance assuming there are equally skilled players manning each class. Sure give some characters or jobs or classes or whatever your game has a lower skill floor so beginners have an entry point to learn the fundamentals, but they should still have a similar skill ceiling. ESPECIALLY in a game like FFXIV where the character evolves and changes over time.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

Woah now, I'm just one person wishing WHM stood a fair chance in the raid game. Why does one job have to be singled out to be for new players only and not for serious gameplay?

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It is fully capable for serious gameplay. Some players refuse to take it for min/max meta reasons. Whether you like the whm or not it has always been capable of completing all content. The devs could easily just enforce the boss mechanic such as not allowing the skipping of a phase, ex. Soar, and you probably wouldn't see as many folks caring what healer was brought.

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Originally Posted by javid

Every time I see this comment I assume we forget WHM is designed to have a simple play-style, low skill ceiling, and able to complete all content. You start adding more complexity to that and you change the identity of the class drastically (arguably these lily/confession systems can potentially cause just that unwanted complexity that is in opposition to WHM identity?!) :(

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"Simple" does not have to be "low ceiling", and "beginner-friendly" does not exclude "fully valuable at endgame". If you look at various ideas here (like my own) you will notice few of them make WHM "more complicated", if anything they are EASIER to handle than this mess of a lily system as we were shown. This is not about complexity, this is about what works at endgame or not, and what fits WHM compared to SCH and AST.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

You don't balance gameplay around perceived execution skill requirements​. You balance assuming there are equally skilled players manning each class. Sure give some characters or jobs or classes or whatever your game has a lower skill floor so beginners have an entry point to learn the fundamentals, but they should still have a similar skill ceiling. ESPECIALLY in a game like FFXIV where the character evolves and changes over time.

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This. This so much. A low skill floor needn't be paired with a skill ceiling so low that even lalafells would have to crouch.

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Originally Posted by javid

Every time I see this comment I assume we forget WHM is designed to have a simple play-style, low skill ceiling, and able to complete all content. You start adding more complexity to that and you change the identity of the class drastically (arguably these lily/confession systems can potentially cause just that unwanted complexity that is in opposition to WHM identity?!) :(

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isnt the samething said about paladin but yet now it has more going on than drk, I find it funny how they did so much for palidan , but yet totally screwed over whm my two fav jobs in the game at least one of them is in a better place now

while the salt and gloom are fun and all, I would like to point out that the testing for dungeons and savage started during may so the build they used for the press tour was not up to date to those tests

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Originally Posted by Remedi

while the salt and gloom are fun and all, I would like to point out that the testing for dungeons and savage started during may so the build they used for the press tour was not up to date to those tests

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many are aware of this and many of the Breakdowns of Potencies for healing/shielding/DPSing go off both the current numbers and the In Progress Numbers. it just looks quite bad for all healers except AST.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

It is fully capable for serious gameplay. Some players refuse to take it for min/max meta reasons. Whether you like the whm or not it has always been capable of completing all content. The devs could easily just enforce the boss mechanic such as not allowing the skipping of a phase, ex. Soar, and you probably wouldn't see as many folks caring what healer was brought.

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Viable is not synonymous with desirable.

Being "able to clear" means nothing when groups refuse to take you because your class brings nothing to make the run easier beyond the baseline contribution that any other option could also provide. Making phases unskippable does not change this one iota.

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Originally Posted by Metsonm

You don't balance gameplay around perceived execution skill requirements​. You balance assuming there are equally skilled players manning each class. Sure give some characters or jobs or classes or whatever your game has a lower skill floor so beginners have an entry point to learn the fundamentals, but they should still have a similar skill ceiling. ESPECIALLY in a game like FFXIV where the character evolves and changes over time.

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That's not quite right. You have to balance around the content of the game when challenged by equally skilled players, not just the job itself. And that's the missing factor that keeps getting ignored, the content, which we know nothing about yet.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

while the salt and gloom are fun and all, I would like to point out that the testing for dungeons and savage started during may so the build they used for the press tour was not up to date to those tests

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This point has been addressed already and the consensus is "we know. But without up to date info we can only go on what we've been told." And everyone will gladly change their tune when new info, dissuading or fears, comes to light.

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Originally Posted by dark494

That's not quite right. You have to balance around the content of the game when challenged by equally skilled players, not just the job itself. And that's the missing factor that keeps getting ignored, the content, which we know nothing about yet.

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You're right, but all classes are facing the same content and all classes are going to be clearing said content. This goes beyond just viability and into desirability so we're assuming all classes are already hitting the bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by javid

Every time I see this comment I assume we forget WHM is designed to have a simple play-style, low skill ceiling, and able to complete all content. You start adding more complexity to that and you change the identity of the class drastically (arguably these lily/confession systems can potentially cause just that unwanted complexity that is in opposition to WHM identity?!) :(

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Lol what are you rambling on about. You do realize that every single job in this game is fairly easy to play at an average skill level right? To be average, it doesn't take much effort. The real effort comes when if you're trying to be 80th percentile+.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

It is fully capable for serious gameplay. Some players refuse to take it for min/max meta reasons. Whether you like the whm or not it has always been capable of completing all content. The devs could easily just enforce the boss mechanic such as not allowing the skipping of a phase, ex. Soar, and you probably wouldn't see as many folks caring what healer was brought.

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There's a difference between the balance between jobs and whether the jobs that exist are still capable of completing content. In the raid game, we have a lot of competition. While we had no problem killing a12s with WHMs early on, that does not mean that WHM was competitive.

Here's to hoping there are more fundamental changes to WHM's kit, because a 100% chance of Cure II proccing a Lily isn't going to change the fact that CD Reduction is worthless. I'm baffled that they would make a whole system for WHM that is essentially a weaker and more restricted Spear card when no one uses Spear Card as is.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

Nobody has commented on it yet, so I'm just going to put this out there. Every time I read the term "pure healer," I read it as: healer who has nothing to offer outside the basic functionality of all healer jobs.
Nobody in FFXIV wants a pure healer.

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SE seems to take that meaning even further and define it as a healer that not only offers nothing else but healing, but is built around ONLY healing to receive it's benefits. That, on top of a pure healer not even healing noticeably stronger than other healers.

The pure healer identity CAN work, but not the way SE is envisioning them.
As it stands, there's no reason to take a WHM over such strong and diverse utility unless there's a very noticeable gap in WHMs healing vs everyone else. Yet somehow AST is BETTER than WHM at base healing. It really doesn't make any sense.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

Woah now, I'm just one person wishing WHM stood a fair chance in the raid game. Why does one job have to be singled out to be for new players only and not for serious gameplay?

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What does that mean fair chance? B/c whm can sufficiently complete all content with relative simplicity compared to the juggling ast/sch has to do. What WHM gains in safety and simplicity; ast/sch loses for the chance to increase raid dps marginally. Unless you're going for top 1% speed clear at max gear (if that's your end game), then there is nothing unfair in the chances WHM has in any raid (with a sch or ast co healer).

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Originally Posted by javid

What does that mean fair chance? B/c whm can sufficiently complete all content with relative simplicity compared to the juggling ast/sch has to do. What WHM gains in safety and simplicity; ast/sch loses for the chance to increase raid dps marginally. Unless you're going for top 1% speed clear at max gear (if that's your end game), then there is nothing unfair in the chances WHM has in any raid (with a sch or ast co healer).

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I am competitive with raiding, and I would like for WHM to be an option in our parties.

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Originally Posted by Dirashi

Lol what are you rambling on about. You do realize that every single job in this game is fairly easy to play at an average skill level right? To be average, it doesn't take much effort. The real effort comes when if you're trying to be 80th percentile+.

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Your opinion doesn't match that of SE's reports which states.... ppl find such and such jobs hard (like brd and mch) and transitioned into other jobs....plus i'm really doubtful of your analysis if you can honestly say jobs with extremely high APM and latency dependence (like Brd, Mch, nin, etc) are "simple" to manage and do raid mech's

We can be a pure healer and still have utility. Make our ressurection more efficient. Give us an Auto-Raise buff. Let us grant buffs to stats i.e. 'Blessings'. Give us buffs to apply to our party members that debuff mobs when hit. The original FF WHM wasn't just about heals and cures, it was also about debuffing foes.

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Originally Posted by Cupcakesu

Here's to hoping there are more fundamental changes to WHM's kit, because a 100% chance of Cure II proccing a Lily isn't going to change the fact that CD Reduction is worthless. I'm baffled that they would make a whole system for WHM that is essentially a weaker and more restricted Spear card when no one uses Spear Card as is.

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exaggeration. a 20% reduction on assize account for a 25% dps increase, no i'm not saying spam unnecessary GCDs to get that 20% recast reduction, but if the mech of the fight demand the amount of cures that can guarantee 3 lilies b4 assize; those 25% dps increase will add up.... far from useless.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

I am competitive with raiding, and I would like for WHM to be an option in our parties.

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By competitive you mean attempting to achieve the max raid DPS possible? In order to give you and really the other extremely small amount of ppl in the overall community that would actually make attempts at that goal with a WHM; they would have to add another lvl of WHM utility that may be too complex/cumbersome for the nominal WHM mass.

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Originally Posted by javid

By competitive you mean attempting to achieve the max raid DPS possible? In order to give you and really the other extremely small amount of ppl in the overall community that would actually make attempts at that goal with a WHM; they would have to add another lvl of WHM utility that may be too complex/cumbersome for the nominal WHM mass.

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I don't think WHM players are as incompetent as you assume they are. I've played with amazing WHM players who just feel like the amount of GCD clipping on AST due to cards is clunky.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

We can be a pure healer and still have utility. Make our ressurection more efficient. Give us an Auto-Raise buff. Let us grant buffs to stats i.e. 'Blessings'. Give us buffs to apply to our party members that debuff mobs when hit. The original FF WHM wasn't just about heals and cures, it was also about debuffing foes.

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Another exaggeration and hi-jacking of the word UTILITY- set of abilities that you have access to..........which whm has a number of UTILITIES! If instead you meant you'd like for whm to have more direct dmg mitigation utilities or increase in raid dps utilities, then you should be more specific..... But don't say WHM has no utilities.....

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

WHM has no utility. It has no support utility, no reliable mitigation, no damage increase, no AOE defense increase, no unique system that makes things generally easier to handle like EOS. They have NOTHING.
They can heal, and they can barely do completely reliably thanks to RNG flowers.

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I like how everytime we start into this thread definitions of common words never can mean what the common defintions are........... So now the word uility doesn't mean utility unless that utility is supportive(define supportive???), unless that utility is direct dmg mitigation, unless that utility is a dps increase, unless that utility increases aoe def,

BC here I was thinking the word utility meant- things you can utilize...but nopee, noppee, that's not what it means /sigh

all healing = supportive, unless you have yet another funky definition to the word supportive as well.
All direct dmg mitigation are not superior to retroactive mitigation (HEALING) UNLESS the inc dmg will kill you if you did not have the proactive mitigation up....those mech are actually far and few in between, throughout content.

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Originally Posted by rainblack

WHM has no utilities.

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.....Since you guys are stuck on this extremely niche definition of "utility"... i'ma humor you.

Whm has no utility! But why is it important that it comes from whm?? Are we trying to say if WHM in the party and WHM isn't the source of this "utility" that nobody else can provide said "utility?"

With the exception of raid DPS utility (which I've long conceded that WHM isn't the source of) what combination of dmg reducing utility that AST/SCH can provide that will achieve anything superior IN RESULT to WHM/SCH or WHM/AST ?? SE would not design any fight in that matter!! And the only combination of utility AST/SCH could provide that WHM/co-healer could not replicate in some effective way is stacking the soils (Collective + Sacred soil). Again stacking soils would being required would be a bad design if it were REQUIRED.

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Originally Posted by Mahkii

There's a difference between the balance between jobs and whether the jobs that exist are still capable of completing content. In the raid game, we have a lot of competition. While we had no problem killing a12s with WHMs early on, that does not mean that WHM was competitive.

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See this what I'm talking about. You had no problem completing the content with whm's early on. In other words you used it's advantages while learning then ditched it for the speed run meta. That is a failing of the player base not the class.

Keep in mind I'm not advocating not tweaking or adding to the white Mage. They are not as interesting to play imo.

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Originally Posted by javid

Another exaggeration and hi-jacking of the word UTILITY- set of abilities that you have access to..........which whm has a number of UTILITIES! If instead you meant you'd like for whm to have more direct dmg mitigation utilities or increase in raid dps utilities, then you should be more specific..... But don't say WHM has no utilities.....

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Let me be very very specific. I would like utility of comperable worth to those of our co-healers. I do not want hotbar decorations like Repose and Fluid Aura. One sees no use, the other saw limited use as an oGCD damage spell. I think, considerig my suggestions, you would have understood I would take ANY utility as long as it is useful at all levels of content it can access.

Thin Air is a perfect example, more useful abilities please. Divine Benison is a compromise between Graniteskin and Stoneskin one but no replacement for Stoneskin II. It is still acceptable as a tank buster shield or weakness aid.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

See this what I'm talking about. You had no problem completing the content with whm's early on. In other words you used it's advantages while learning then ditched it for the speed run meta. That is a failing of the player base not the class.

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Problems are less severe earlier in the game because the game is more forgiving. Just because you can finish Sastasha with four tanks doesn't mean it's gonna hold up by postgame. WHM keeps up at early levels but then at later levels it just will not be equipped to do what's expected of it, no matter how good the player.

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Originally Posted by javid

But don't say WHM has no utilities.....

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WHM has no utilities.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

See this what I'm talking about. You had no problem completing the content with whm's early on. In other words you used it's advantages while learning then ditched it for the speed run meta. That is a failing of the player base not the class.

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Well think of it this way. Pretty much every wall that progression teams come across are DPS checks, not healing checks. Lets say your team happens to be stuck on one of these. Which healer would you rather have in your party. The one that can provide DPS buffs so you can finally clear that check, or the healer that's going to give you nothing more than over healing?

The choice is obvious

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Originally Posted by javid

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Can people just stop with the arbitrary numbers?

I raided in savage with progression gear pre echo and all that. We were far from world first levels, but even we could see the benefits gained from bringing certain jobs over others. Some jobs just synergize better with the raid and offers more utility to help us progress through.
And sure, we could have taken a WHM and a SMn instead. It was definitely possible to clear with them. But bringing an AST and MCH instead upped our damage so much that we were able to skip entire phases that we had trouble with. That's nothing to scoff at. That's not a "marginal increase in DPS".

In general, while WHM is definitely going to be viable in raiding, it's going to feel more like a handicap than something to help you advance easier and more efficiently.

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Originally Posted by rainblack

Problems are less severe earlier in the game because the game is more forgiving. Just because you can finish Sastasha with four tanks doesn't mean it's gonna hold up by postgame. WHM keeps up at early levels but then at later levels it just will not be equipped to do what's expected of it, no matter how good the player.

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We were not speaking of sastasha but raiding.

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Originally Posted by javid

Another exaggeration and hi-jacking of the word UTILITY- set of abilities that you have access to..........which whm has a number of UTILITIES! If instead you meant you'd like for whm to have more direct dmg mitigation utilities or increase in raid dps utilities, then you should be more specific..... But don't say WHM has no utilities.....

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WHM has no utility. It has no support utility, no reliable mitigation, no damage increase, no AOE defense increase, no unique system that makes things generally easier to handle like EOS. They have NOTHING.
They can heal, and they can barely do completely reliably thanks to RNG flowers.