Square Enix, please think about both Casual AND Hardcore crafters..

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Originally Posted by Maeka

So, them being easier to get somehow makes them less useful as equipment, or more ugly as glamours. Okaaaay.



Does everything have to be about how much farking gil you can make off of it, or epeen factor? Seriously. I really don't get this obsession with making so stinking much gil that you don't know what to do with.

Dunno about anybody else, but I thought the value in, say, a weapon is how much damage it does, or in the case of a glam weapon, how good it looks.

I really never understood this "It's hard to get or it's rare therefore it's more valuable" ... I've seen some terrible weapons that (to me) look absolutely ugly, or they are obsolete and people still want hundreds of K for them and I scratch my head going "uh, why?" (not counting of course, say, weapons used in relic weapon quests or what-not).

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you and callinon need stop harassing and bully this girl lol. you and him so mad about hardcore crafter opinions..there is not anything wrong with what she says because she is true. i am in crafting dis cord. sometimes they say in japan that what cookies is doing in English forum is a good thing. because of how easy it became and i a gree.

Cookies if you reading this now then keep doing what your doing. actually hardcore player watch your thread and support youre thread. this is the only thread across all language that call out easy crafting and we take notice of your good deed. ignore players that try bring you down. we still support your thread and love what your doing for hardcore community. your kind of like hero lol I sent you tell on Jenova from my aether alt, you should come to my jap server and craft

people on english forum act like such cry baby over hardcore things it is really sad.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

The problem is, it was never hard. It was a gear check and as people accumulate more and more resources in stockpiles, meeting final gear check becomes easier.



SE can make this "hard" to the point of impossible but what they need to do is add a diminishing returns system to a side quest crafting system. Like Anima crafting or something. If they have a proper diminishing return, you never meet cap. They could add it to the rebuild system as well but it needs to be rewarded with cosmetic returns after a point or it becomes a barrier.

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Well, we have established it’s technically not skill based, but however, it was definitely hard. Just a fake type of hard. RNG is really the only way they can add some sort of difficulty to it. I just don’t think you could face-to-face convince Yoshida P that RNG does not make a system difficult. Do you think you could? Honest question. He’s the one that originally put it in the game. Also, interesting idea, but RNG just seems more convenient for them to add I think.

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

you and callinon need stop harassing and bully this girl lol. you and him so mad about hardcore crafter opinions..there is not anything wrong with what she says because she is true. i am in crafting dis cord. sometimes they say in japan that what cookies is doing in English forum is a good thing. because of how easy it became and i a gree.

Cookies if you reading this now then keep doing what your doing. actually hardcore player watch your thread and support youre thread. this is the only thread across all language that call out easy crafting and we take notice of your good deed. ignore players that try bring you down. we still support your thread and love what your doing for hardcore community. your kind of like hero lol I sent you tell on Jenova from my aether alt, you should come to my jap server and craft

people on english forum act like such cry baby over hardcore things it is really sad.

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Posts like this really encourage me to keep replying no matter what sort of rude people bark nonsense on this thread. Trust me, I know how many ex-crafters are upset by what happened in 4.0, so it brings me joy to know it’s making them happy. So thank you for that. If you log on again on Jenova, I would like to repay you for such a sweet comment! :)

Actually, I’m quite sure they have seen this thread. Square, I mean. I truly believe if it wasn’t for this thread, Yoshida mentioning “we are working on difficult recipes” and the whole “procs are required to HQ a craft” thing would have never came out of his mouth.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

The problem is, it was never hard. It was a gear check and as people accumulate more and more resources in stockpiles, meeting final gear check becomes easier.

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Whatever it was, we enjoyed it. Some people saw it as tedious and boring and will never understand, others found it satisfying and it kept them occupied. It doesn't even have to be crazy complex or an elite skill test, just not faceroll where you make the highest crafts in the game on day 1, effortlessly, with NQ mats (which we literally did this patch). Also it doesn't need to apply to crafting overall, let the casual crafters have the current system from 1-80, we just want a few master crafts that keep the player occupied for a bit and reward patience and effort.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Anybody who disagrees with her is "hostile" to her, but yet she can look down her nose at us, and wave her epeen around, "LOOK AT ME I MAKE ONE BILLION GIL A MONTH AND I HAVE 10 RETAINERS AND I GOT MULTIPLE OMNICRAFTER ACCOUNTS, DO YOU HAVE THAT!?!??.

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Whoa, easy there. Deep breaths. It'll be ok.

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

you and callinon need stop harassing and bully this girl lol. you and him so mad about hardcore crafter opinions..there is not anything wrong with what she says because she is true. i am in crafting dis cord. sometimes they say in japan that what cookies is doing in English forum is a good thing. because of how easy it became and i a gree.

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I have no issue with their opinions. I disagree with them, but that's fine. The issue I have with them is the attitude they take with people that disagree with them. The tone of a statement is sometimes more important than the statement itself, and that person is constantly displaying a toxic attitude and talking down to people they deem as less hardcore than they are.

If they feel I've bullied them, I haven't. I've simply been calling out their garbage attitude toward people that disagree with them. It is possible to disagree with someone without telling them they don't belong in a discussion or declaring that they're lesser because they have less money. Both of which this person has done repeatedly.

Honestly I find the whole idea of hardcore crafting laughable. What is hardcore anyway? Someone who dedicates a lot of time to crafting? Someone who enjoys face slamming into RNG failure over and over again until he gets lucky?

Now, I'm a dedicated crafter myself. I gathered and crafted all my own facet gear. The only thing I bought to make the sets were a few goetia tome items. Even put off the new Ex trial for it (which I sort of regret now because all the good players have cleared and I keep getting stuck with players who can't do simple mechanics).

Crafting in FFXIV, while deeper than most MMOs, is still a secondary thing. You don't go through the MSQ by crafting, you don't beat primals by tailoring them a new suit. Crafting in this game, as with any MMO, is used for a few things: making a decent set of gear for alts, consumables, cosmetic, items etc.; saving money by making your own stuff and making money by selling crafted stuff to other people. There's never been items that only crafters could use, outside of gear glams (due to role restrictions) like engineers in WoW who were the only ones who could use the bombs they created or some of the mounts they made.

And I can understand the want to have something cool you could make and call your own that other non-crafters couldn't get. For example, they could add craftable mounts, minions or cosmetic items that require massive amounts of mats from each craft that you couldn't just buy and have to dedicate time to actually making, which you could show off and say "Yeah, I'm a super omni-crafter with a bad*** mount."

But as for actual "difficulty" in crafting, I am vehemently against the false difficulty of RNG. There's nothing engaging about a system where you can do everything right and still fail because of bad luck. It would be like people fighting Hades Ex and him only having a 50% chance of casting the circle AoEs the DPS need to eat to survive and the raid fails because RNG decided it shouldn't happen this time, despite no errors on the players part. When you fail because of things outside of your control, that isn't fun or difficult. It's just tedious.

If they wanted to change the crafting system up and actually add real skill to it that doesn't rely on a random number generator, that's fine. But forcing good crafters to fail because of bad luck isn't. Theres no sense of accomplishment there.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

But as for actual "difficulty" in crafting, I am vehemently against the false difficulty of RNG. There's nothing engaging about a system where you can do everything right and still fail because of bad luck. It would be like people fighting Hades Ex and him only having a 50% chance of casting the circle AoEs the DPS need to eat to survive and the raid fails because RNG decided it shouldn't happen this time, despite no errors on the players part. When you fail because of things outside of your control, that isn't fun or difficult. It's just tedious.

If they wanted to change the crafting system up and actually add real skill to it that doesn't rely on a random number generator, that's fine. But forcing good crafters to fail because of bad luck isn't. Theres no sense of accomplishment there.

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This. This is the point I've been trying to make the entire time. The stuff above it too, but I try to keep my quotes somewhat under control.

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

you and callinon need stop harassing and bully this girl lol. you and him so mad about hardcore crafter opinions..there is not anything wrong with what she says because she is true. i am in crafting dis cord. sometimes they say in japan that what cookies is doing in English forum is a good thing. because of how easy it became and i a gree.

Cookies if you reading this now then keep doing what your doing. actually hardcore player watch your thread and support youre thread. this is the only thread across all language that call out easy crafting and we take notice of your good deed. ignore players that try bring you down. we still support your thread and love what your doing for hardcore community. your kind of like hero lol I sent you tell on Jenova from my aether alt, you should come to my jap server and craft

people on english forum act like such cry baby over hardcore things it is really sad.

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If you actually read what I posted, you would realize that I said that I am fine with hardcore niche crafting things. I'm fine with that. I am not fine, however, with the girl taking such an elitist attitude with people and waving their epeen around like they're something special because they dump 40+ hours a week into the game like it's a freaking job.

They call us hostile while instantly going on the offensive when they get triggered because we don't agree with them, even when we present our differing opinions politely.

It's OK to disagree.
It's NOT okay to attack someone who disagrees with you and THEN claim that THEY got hostile.

@Ryaz

Whether you find hardcore crafting a thing or not, or whether it’s funny or not, isn’t really the point of the thread though. That’s great if you find it “laughable”. :P Same could be said about the other side of the argument.

The point is, endgame crafting is too easy, and it needs to be changed. Either that, or make Ishgard recipes difficult, and make the rewards for it worth player’s time to grind for. Like, high stat tools and gear. If it’s mere minions, mounts, or titles, I can tell you right now hardcore crafters will not do it. Like, at all.

Add RNG, or add nothing and make it too easy.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

If you actually read what I posted, you would realize that I said that I am fine with hardcore niche crafting things. I'm fine with that. I am not fine, however, with the girl taking such an elitist attitude with people and waving their epeen around like they're something special because they dump 40+ hours a week into the game like it's a freaking job.

They call us hostile while instantly going on the offensive when they get triggered because we don't agree with them, even when we present our differing opinions politely.

It's OK to disagree.
It's NOT okay to attack someone who disagrees with you and THEN claim that THEY got hostile.

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I read all the post here to this thread. it seems like when cookies mention how much she makes month at a time and how hardcore she is at game...you and callinon seem to be one that got triggered and call her elitist lol

your statement irk me. why? because. an elitist player kick you from lobby because you did one singl rotation incorrect. an elitist player also make fun of you during raid caus you forgot a mechanic during fight. elitist player doesnt bother help you. cookie say she have over 20 bil of Gil. she mention she pay large plot of housing ward to poor player. i never known any hardcore that do this ever. she is very kind

from what i see the ones who get hostile first are you and callinon. then start witch hunt at cookies. very discriminatory of hardcore player. sides. stop discriminatory hardcore people stop treating them as demon because they have fun in game. who care if that what cookies do for fun? you suppose to have fun in video game not be bored of it...what is wrong with you? if how she play game offend you and make you call her bad elitist player then stop playing game.

last time i reply on this subject. subject is childish and a bunch of bullies witch hunt one girl over her telling truth. grow thickk skin people. cookies, please ignore children here they are not worth your time. your known as hero for making very hard crafting reality, god bless people as you

by the way rng make craft hard, very sad how english forum think it not hard lol

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Originally Posted by MilkAndChoco

by the way rng make craft hard, very sad how english forum think it not hard lol

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Listen. I respect that you're trying to converse in a language not your own. No kidding, I admire the hell out of that kind of effort. But I don't think you completely understood what was being discussed here by Maeka, myself, or what Ryaz said just above.

Crafting is easy. It is. I'm not going to stand here and say that it isn't. But adding difficulty and adding randomness are not the same thing.

Adding random elements that are pivotal to the success or failure of a craft is not adding difficulty to crafting, it's just adding tedium. Basically it's saying that if you prepare yourself, get all your stats together, put all your ducks squarely in a row, and do everything right... you might still just fail because.... difficulty? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have no objection to the principle of adding more complications to crafting. But the system as it is currently designed is just a math problem. You just do math. Your answer is either correct or incorrect. There is nothing in between and there is no room in there for adding difficulty.

If SE decides they want to redesign the system so that it isn't just a math problem, that's their choice. Several other MMOs have done something similar with mixed results. But just adding a random chance to fail isn't the same thing and we should be intellectually honest about that.

Difficulty != Luck.

As for Ishgard adding this kind of thing? I doubt it very sincerely. I know we don't have a ton of information on Ishgard restoration crafting yet, but Yoshi P has already said he wants the entire server to cooperate here. That tells me it will be an inclusive system not an exclusive one (like say, Ultimate).