BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

If fans of the existing concept have nothing to lose, why not support those who wish to see Blue Mage gain access to all content?

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What if they do have something to lose?

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

This is the part I don't understand. Outside of the people who are riding this train because they enjoy seeing other people upset (and there have been quite a few I've come across during this debacle, self-admitting no less) they have no reason to contest the idea.

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

There is no good argument for making it limited, full stop.

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Maybe you would understand if you tried, instead of stating your opinion like a fact.
You don't get to decide if people's concerns about what you ask for are justified or not.

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Side tangent:

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Originally Posted by jon041065

One of these blu threads was quiet for two days before Fyce (someone that is pro limited blu) bumped it back to the front page.

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I'm not on the forums 24/7, and it's not because a thread gets in the second page that I'll refrain myself from answering to someone who have thrown ad hominems at me, used strawmans, put words in my mouth, and assumed that I was being disingenuous because I asked my question too aggressively for their tastes.
The post you quoted from me wasn't even about BLU itself. It was me defending myself from someone who just wanted to attack me. So don't use that as an excuse for "my side" keeping up the debate. If that dude kept it shut instead of flaming me, I'd have not answered.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I'm not on the forums 24/7, and it's not because a thread gets in the second page that I'll refrain myself from answering to someone who have thrown ad hominems at me, used strawmans, put words in my mouth, and assumed that I was being disingenuous because I asked my question too aggressively for their tastes.
The post you quoted from me wasn't even about BLU itself. It was me defending myself from someone who just wanted to attack me. So don't use that as an excuse for "my side" keeping up the debate. If that dude kept it shut instead of flaming me, I'd have not answered.

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You're more than welcome to post when you can and in response to what you want. I brought your post up to show that it's not just the same "2-3" of us that are keeping these threads active. New people or people that post infrequently will bump the thread back up and then people from both viewpoints make responses.

And I will agree with you somewhat about the person you responded to in that thread. I don't believe it was quite as bad as you view it but do feel he did alter some of the points you were trying to make in order to make them easier to argue against. I've said many times that there is plenty of toxicity on both sides and I wish there wasn't a post limit so I could do more to stop it on our side.

Remember that we don't have a bad history with one another.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I actually thank jon041065 for engaging with me the way he did, trying to answer honestly to my question. And while the end paragraph was a bit shady and the post had some contradictions, it helped me grasp what could some people consider as the job's identity.

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Am still curious about what you thought was shady and what contradictions there were but maybe you can explain in that thread.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

What if they do have something to lose?

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Any examples of what could be lost if SE were to make blu unlimited in a way that left the Carnival content alone? I haven't seen many that have just said "lift the restrictions and let it run free" which I'm sure you will also agree would be bad. So I'm curious if you feel there is more than that.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

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If people want proof that I can disagree with other people fighting for unlimited blu. Again, I'm in support of many things that players want if it's not at the cost of what others want.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

You're more than welcome to post when you can and in response to what you want. I brought your post up to show that it's not just the same "2-3" of us that are keeping these threads active. New people or people that post infrequently will bump the thread back up and then people from both viewpoints make responses.

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I've no complaints about these threads staying alive so long as people are postings in ways that further the discussion or in response to other posts. However, you, Skyskip and other "Unlimited" BLU supporters have frequently just posted "Bump" posts when the threads were dead, dying or being buried so that they'd pop up back on page one, without adding anything further to the thread or responding to anyone.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I've no complaints about these threads staying alive so long as people are postings in ways that further the discussion or in response to other posts. However, you, Skyskip and other "Unlimited" BLU supporters have frequently just posted "Bump" posts when the threads were dead, dying or being buried so that they'd pop up back on page one, without adding anything further to the thread or responding to anyone.

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I know I've done one "bump" in one of my own threads. There is possibly 2-3 total times I've done that though. I wouldn't say that is frequent.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

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The debate was being slow lately because everyone is tired of seeing and writting the same arguments over and over again. Heck, even when I read that Skyskip admitted that he didn't actually understood why people were arguing against his opinion, I started writting a post to explain what were the reasons why people doesn't share his view, but I grew tired of writting it because there is already so much to read on the matter. So, instead I simply reminded it that his opinions are not a fact, and implied that the answer to his lack of understanding had already been given plenty of times.
People simply don't have anything else to say on the matter. Everything has been already written mostly. Now, most answers are "visibility bumps" or people casually walking in to post their opinion on the matter.

But this debate is far from over, as long as some people will not be satisfied with it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it started again once more after this week live-letter if they talk about BLU (and funny enough, I actually don't know if they will... of even if they should).

And I even do encourage people to voice their opinion and keep this debate alive. It's just that I think there is a good and a bad way of doing it. And so far, there was quite a lot of misunderstanding coming from either "side", so I can't really consider it a good debate. Curious to see how it will evolve. Not sure that I'll still want to be a part of it though.

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Edit: "Quick" answers for these points:

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Am still curious about what you thought was shady and what contradictions there were but maybe you can explain in that thread.

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For the "shady" arguments, it was about that part:

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No other main FF title had more that 30 blue magic spells besides FFXI. No other main FF title let you make builds besides FFXI. No other main FF title excluded blue mage from the full game after it was unlocked besides FFXIV.

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The "30 blue magic spell" was not put in context. A flat number without a context or a ratio is meaningless. For example, FFV had 30 Blue Magic, 18 Black Magic and 18 White Magic, which shows how much Blue Magic there can be compared to other forms of magic.
When it comes to "builds", while I understand what you mean, we still have the core aspect of the choice being given to the player in regards to what skill they want to learn/use. You were being nitpicky about one single aspect, while the rest was still relevant.
Also, excluding FFXI didn't make sense. It's the closest FF title that we can use as a comparison, so putting it aside is a bit unfair. Besides, speaking about "BLU identity" across the franchise doesn't mean excluding one title simply because it didn't fit your point. FFXI BLU is still a BLU, and still contributes to BLU's identity in its way. No reason to consider it more or less legitimate than any other kind of Blue Magic.
Finally, the last point is quite hard to swallow as it doesn't serve any purpose and has no weight. I could as easily say that no FF title than VIII made "Blue Magic" as a Limit Break thing. So what? What if BLU is a limited job in FFXIV? It's especially hard to read since "your side" loves to bring the argument that FFXIV BLU could be its own interpretation and doesn't have to be exactly like what it was in the previous titles. Well, that's pretty much what they did. But somehow, that argument only applies as long as it's an "unlimited job"...

As for the contradictions, you started by linking a reddit thread showing a BLU concept. This concept was for a Tank role, and got its skills simply by leveling, like other jobs.
But you then spoke about the "learning" methods for BLU, which contradicts with the way this reddit thread was presented in great details with each skill being learned at specific levels. No special "learning method". You also spoke about you liking the idea of a job not being tied to the trinity system, which -again- contradicts with the BLU concept you linked which was stricly a Tank. Finally, you spoke about Trine and Grand Delta to "AoE down mobs"... When only Trine was described in that post, and was an AoE mostly used for enmity and damage reduction to be used in the "tank stance". I don't know if you could "AoE down mobs" with great effectiveness with such a defensive move.
In short, while you said that you were "really hoping for a tank like this person's write up", the rest of your post didn't felt like it shared a lot of ideas with that reddit thread. I guess you simply liked the "general concept/idea", but it wasn't clear what you actually wanted out of that reddit post and your own expectations.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Any examples of what could be lost if SE were to make blu unlimited in a way that left the Carnival content alone? I haven't seen many that have just said "lift the restrictions and let it run free" which I'm sure you will also agree would be bad. So I'm curious if you feel there is more than that.

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Three things:
- Making a regular job is -and we've seen it with Heavensward's balance and the fact that they reduced to two jobs for Stormblood- something that requires a lot of work. The ressources invested into making BLU as a regular job are ressources that wouldn't be put somewhere else.
- People say "I've waited 5 years to main that job!", but they have absolutly no idea how regular job BLU would actually play and if they'd have enjoyed it. So, to continue on the previous point, there is no way to say that the ressources invested would have produced a good and balanced BLU. Would you personally main it if you didn't enjoy its gameplay? A lot of people put gameplay first.
- While you and others are actually advocating for a regular BLU that wouldn't change anything to the aspects of the limited BLU as we know it, there is absolutly no guarantee that SE wouldn't choose a solution going that way.

It's all about risks & ressources management and acceptation. Most people who are in favour of keeping limited BLU as it is would be totally okay if SE was to come to us saying "we managed to work on a good and enjoyable non-limited version of the Blue Mage fitting the mold and that leaves the content of the limited BLU absolutly unchanged, while also not using any ressources that we would've used somewhere else". But that's a really big and unrealistic 'if'. So while people satisfied with limited BLU obviously would want everyone to be happy, the risk seems too big for them (me included), while limited BLU is a good compromise for a job that otherwise had very little chance to ever come in FFXIV. These are the concerns Skyskip failed to understand or willingly dismissed, while they are legitimate.
It's a "good enough & better than nothing" approach. What "your side" disagrees on is the "good enough" part and the fact that you are indeed willing to take the risk. That's basically all of what separates our opinions. You see the risk and ressources investment as acceptable, "we" don't. It's as simple as that, really.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The debate was being slow lately because everyone is tired of seeing and writting the same arguments over and over again. Heck, even when I read that Skyskip admitted that he didn't actually understood why people were arguing against his opinion, I started writting a post to explain what were the reasons why people doesn't share his view, but I grew tired of writting it because there is already so much to read on the matter. So, instead I simply reminded it that his opinions are not a fact, and implied that the answer to his lack of understanding had already been given plenty of times.
People simply don't have anything else to say on the matter. Everything has been already written mostly. Now, most answers are "visibility bumps" or people casually walking in to post their opinion on the matter.

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Are you talking about when he said this?

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

There is no good argument for making it limited, full stop.

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I think he meant it as "there's no good argument to keep it limited only" but I could be wrong. I can understand how others could view it as him saying that there is no argument to be made in favor of the content if those people believe that limited jobs are necessary for that content. He will have to clarify as it can be taken in more than one way. I've definitely been guilty of wording things poorly in this debate.

As for his other recent post in this thread, it was the three of us wondering why people are opposed to a middle ground. It's one thing to believe it can't happen but there have been people saying they don't want there to be an unlimited blu AND for there to still be the limited blu game play. So those that are excited for the side content would still have it, those that think limited blu is the best interpretation of the job could still have it, and those of us that want to main a job that is true to what blu is to us can get that. I don't know what to say for those that feel the limited job concept is the best thing to be announced for the game and the one person that did say they are fine getting a caster that is named blue mage and that's all that mattered to them.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

But this debate is far from over, as long as some people will not be satisfied with it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it started again once more after this week live-letter if they talk about BLU (and funny enough, I actually don't know if they will... of even if they should).

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I also think it will build up again after the live letter no matter what happens and again around the patch and then just keep going after that. I do think that it could die down due to some of us that want an unlimited blu feeling strongly that limited jobs are a bad direction for the game that we are unsubbing and won't be able to post anymore. That it will become more and more one sided until the debate is over. This is already happening to some degree and I'll be gone soon as well.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

And I even do encourage people to voice their opinion and keep this debate alive. It's just that I think there is a good and a bad way of doing it. And so far, there was quite a lot of misunderstanding coming from either "side", so I can't really consider it a good debate. Curious to see how it will evolve. Not sure that I'll still want to be a part of it though.

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There is definitely misunderstanding and toxicity coming from both sides and it's sad. I'm getting bummed out that we are unable to come together instead of risking so much and we are all end up disappointed or angry. I feel that for some that are pro limited blu, that they fear giving up anything now that they have this kind of focus from the devs and that they will lose the content if they do. I think they are risking the content ending up like Diadem by not trying to compromise.

At this point, how do we know it would be viable without being broken or overpowered, and that making it unlimited would result in it getting nerfed to take too much away to where the class was no longer fun?

I think it'd be far wiser to let the class come out and see how it functions before automatically assuming either that SE is 'right' or 'wrong' on this matter in making it limited.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

At this point, how do we know it would be viable without being broken or overpowered, and that making it unlimited would result in it getting nerfed to take too much away to where the class was no longer fun?

I think it'd be far wiser to let the class come out and see how it functions before automatically assuming either that SE is 'right' or 'wrong' on this matter in making it limited.

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For the first question I'd say you could say that about anything, many said the same thing about Summoner but I feel seeing Demi-Bahamut was well worth the "what if?".

And for the later, yes and no. Yes we can wait and see if the content is fun, certainly we should probably wait a bit before saying it's 100% awful, no way I can enjoy it - unless you know you hate gathering things but like.. I think you were guaranteed to dislike blue mage then lol. Also, then no because if you know you don't like something, for example gathering, then you don't really need to wait and see if that's a core tenant of the design (you don't like red, next gear set is locked to red exclusively, all of it, safe to say you're like "....but why? at least let me dye it").

Example: Not only do you hate cilantro but you're allergic to it. Now I add cilantro into a dish and you're like "uh.. serious? no thanks" and I respond with "just wait and see, I'm sure this time it'll taste great!" lol. Of course it's not a perfect example (some hyperbole for fun :3) because you could say "I've had it before and I know I don't like it" while we've not had exactly this blue mage before, but we are all easily capable of imagining not being able to play our favorite theme'd job in end game content (which is the current state of things). Doesn't mean you have to agree with others but it should be easy to temporarily equip empathy job stone here and see that you don't have to wait and see to not like the news of something.

Maybe a better example SE: next three patches will be gatherer only content, we've really outdone ourselves and invented some really engaging new gatherer content! Gatherers: OMG YES, MY BURFDAY!!! Everyone who doesn't like gathering/DoL: ..................... It is unnecessary for the non-gatherers to wait and see to know that this is not going to be their favorite decision lol.

The arguments are getting muddled at this point, well a long while ago... but even if you don't think blue mage needs to be end game available I'm sure some people can find some empathy and reason in that you don't need to try every single thing to know it wont be to your personal liking. And before "the game doesn't need to be designed to you", yes of course obviously but we do have the forums to voice our desire for somethings to be that way. So.. here we are with that lol.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

At this point, how do we know it would be viable without being broken or overpowered, and that making it unlimited would result in it getting nerfed to take too much away to where the class was no longer fun?

I think it'd be far wiser to let the class come out and see how it functions before automatically assuming either that SE is 'right' or 'wrong' on this matter in making it limited.

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There hasn't been many that are suggesting to just lift the restrictions and that's it. Most of us advocating for unlimited blu know that there will be a lot of work done to have it be balanced and not break the game. Especially if SE leaves the content that people are excited for as again a lot of us are in favor of that type of content as well. This is why there have been posts saying for them to make it part of the 6.0 expac.

The compromise that some of us would like to see the community get on board with is the unlimited blu people supporting the people that want solo content. The solo content people supporting the unlimited blu people. The solo people getting blu first and those of us wanting unlimited blu would get it later. Then maybe after that we will have to accept patches and/or some content coming out at a slower rate but more types of players getting the content they want.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

many said the same thing about Summoner but I feel seeing Demi-Bahamut was well worth the "what if?".

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Because even then we didn't know. There were a multitude of complaints, some of which turned out to be valid, others which turned out to not be relevant...because we really didn't know. (I believe the ones that were found to be valid were mostly fixed in early 4.1 IIRC)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

And for the later, yes and no. Yes we can wait and see if the content is fun, certainly we should probably wait a bit before saying it's 100% awful, no way I can enjoy it - unless you know you hate gathering things but like.. I think you were guaranteed to dislike blue mage then lol.
..snip..

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Okay so are you implying that people won't like BLU at all, or that they'll only like it if they can play the class in random non-premade group content? The former is possible (I mean, I still don't particularly enjoy MCH)...but irrelevant, because making the job limited or not would have zero impact either way. The latter is simply incorrect. There's not a single class that I only enjoy if I can play it in a random dungeon group and could never enjoy in a premade group or solo. I dislike MCH solo, I dislike MCH in premades, I dislike MCH in random group content. On the flip side, I highly enjoy SCH solo, I enjoy SCH in premades, and I enjoy SCH in group content. If SCH became a limited class tomorrow that could no longer do non-premade duty-finder content...I'd still enjoy SCH.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Maybe a better example SE: next three patches will be gatherer only content, we've really outdone ourselves and invented some really engaging new gatherer content! Gatherers: OMG YES, MY BURFDAY!!! Everyone who doesn't like gathering/DoL: ..................... It is unnecessary for the non-gatherers to wait and see to know that this is not going to be their favorite decision lol.

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That's really not relevant. It's not like they're making BLU and skipping a new dungeon and skipping a new alliance raid and skipping a new race, etc. They're doing that in addition to all these other things. Your example is more akin to deciding that you don't like Stormblood because they added spearfishing and you don't like Fisher (or you think they should have added a 'Looking for Fish' queue to the Duty Finder instead) so everything else that happened this expansion is moot.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

but even if you don't think blue mage needs to be end game available I'm sure some people can find some empathy and reason in that you don't need to try every single thing to know it wont be to your personal liking.

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I actually don't know at this point. Maybe I'll hate it like I don't particularly care for MCH, maybe I'll play it and want to do everything in it, maybe I'll love it just how it is....it's not out yet, I haven't been able to try it yet...I don't know. (And that was kinda my point.)