Let's keep Character Crossovers from other Square-Enix titles out of FFXIV.

Not sure if anyone has touched on this but, an interesting way to bring them into our universe would be to make them a work of fiction in ours. Like a book turned play. They just so happen to look exactly the same. Yes that's right, an implied reference. A Hyur woman, pink/blonde hair in a specific ponytail style from the hair salon, a techy outfit based on a work of fiction called "Cocoon" (FFXIII). Our lore is protected, Lightning becomes nothing more than an event piece, completely unable to overshadow (not that we should be concerned about her presence here either way. Even if she were to play a pivotal role in our story line the writers would determine how important her back story would be to that. We've been assured it's not coming down to a "not playing FFXIII will impede your FFXIV experience" in regard to this manner).

I always thought it would be nice that every FF game (even though I've only played 1 yet own 3) would reference all the others in complete yet passive way. Like FF could be a work of fiction in FF2 and so on.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

i have no problem whatsoever if you are against the very idea of crossovers, but for every person that is concerned fot that reason you see 10 that are just hateing on it because its XIII all over the internet,

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Yay for more unproven statistics!

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

this is not a "i want crossovers and you are dumb" argument on my side, its "if you hate on it just because its not a personal favorite character of yours, you are a douchebag that tries to ruin others enjoyment"

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Half-baked speculation! Strawman arguments! Name-calling! This just gets better and better!

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

if crossovers at all are a good idea is a whole other subject, i dont really care about them that much to be honest, im just sick of the people that feel obligated to scream in my face how much of a failure they think the XIII series is every 3 hours

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Oversimplification and more strawman. Geez, yumi. You are making this so very easy for me. lol So, any more name-calling and over-exaggerated arguments you want to post? At this point I don't even have to try. XD

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Originally Posted by Guasta_Ryets

Not sure if anyone has touched on this but, an interesting way to bring them into our universe would be to make them a work of fiction in ours. Like a book turned play. They just so happen to look exactly the same. Yes that's right, an implied reference. A Hyur woman, pink/blonde hair in a specific ponytail style from the hair salon, a techy outfit based on a work of fiction called "Cocoon" (FFXIII). Our lore is protected, Lightning becomes nothing more than an event piece, completely unable to overshadow (not that we should be concerned about her presence here either way. Even if she were to play a pivotal role in our story line the writers would determine how important her back story would be to that. We've been assured it's not coming down to a "not playing FFXIII will impede your FFXIV experience" in regard to this manner).

I always thought it would be nice that every FF game (even though I've only played 1 yet own 3) would reference all the others in complete yet passive way. Like FF could be a work of fiction in FF2 and so on.

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You mean like they did in FF Tactics Advanced? Actually, you bring up a very good idea. Come to think of it, that would be extremely cool in my opinion. I wonder if someone could get this idea to Yoshi?

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

snip

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glad you are having so much fun blowing your own horn, rendering my whole opinion invalid in your eyes in with some "witty" phrases sure is more convenient than a proper discussion about how to treat others in your fandom, it was nice but im done here, have fun

i guess asking to not constantly shit on a game in the same fandom because it ruins the fun for people that do like it is an act of common decency that is too much to ask from people at this point (and dont even pretend its not happening)

as much as i wouldnt mind seeing lightning in 14 i start to hope they decide against in in the last minute just so people finally stop shitting on a character and game i happen to like (well more than they already do constantly for the last years).

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

glad you are having so much fun blowing your own horn, rendering my whole opinion invalid in your eyes in with some "witty" phrases sure is more convenient than a proper discussion about how to treat others in your fandom, it was nice but im done here, have fun

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Well, so far all you've done is speculate, throw insults, and wield your opinions as if they were some sort of fact. I don't really have to toot my own horn, Yumi. You're doing a fine job of tooting it for me. lol If you really want to have a proper discussion, then try not throwing insults around. Nothing says "MY ARGUMENT SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY" quite like name-calling.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

i guess asking to not constantly shit on a game in the same fandom because it ruins the fun for people that do like it is an act of common decency that is too much to ask from people at this point (and dont even pretend its not happening)

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Interesting choice of words there, yumi. A bit immature (and likely to get you timed-out), but it speaks volumes about how much you're losing your cool. And that's not really called for. Nobody is "crapping" on the game. In fact, if you'd paid attention to what was said throughout the thread, you'd see that the people who are voicing their concerns over this sort of thing actually love the game a lot.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

as much as i wouldnt mind seeing lightning in 14 i start to hope they decide against in in the last minute just so people finally stop shitting on a character and game i happen to like (well more than they already do constantly for the last years).

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Once again, nobody is saying anything bad about the character Lightning OR the game. You're just throwing that out there. (sigh) More exaggeration. And in quite a profane manner, I might add. Once again, I must advise you to chill. Unless you want an involuntary seven day vacation from the forums.

P.S.: I see what this is about. You just admitted to liking FFXIII and Lightning, and are not happy about people "criticizing" her or the game negatively. Well, firstly, it's just a video game. And Lightning is just a character. There's no need to get that up in arms about people saying they don't like her. Heck, Sephiroth gets lots of criticism as a character as well. You don't see me spazzing about it. It's just a fictional character in a video game set in a fictional world. Lighten up, Francis.

Secondly, nobody is even saying anything bad about FFXIII or Lightning. You're taking this into a whole different direction. This is a thread started by someone who isn't too thrilled about the idea of bringing other FF characters from other games into ARR. He said nothing about not wanting this to happen because he does't like Lightning or FFXIII. And for that matter, neither did I. Pop a pill and relax, Yumi. LOL

Skye, I like you. Please tell me you're going to Balmung. We need to be taru-buddies and go around just ruling the world with our iron fists....covered in the blood and scales of Bahamut.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

Skye, I like you. Please tell me you're going to Balmung. We need to be taru-buddies and go around just ruling the world with our iron fists....covered in the blood and scales of Bahamut.

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Sorry, Sleverin. My linkshell and I are on masamune. >.<

Then again, I'm sure I could create a character on a different realm if I so choose! :)

nice of you to point out that im losing my cool about this issue like its the default winning condition of the other side, i admit i am very bitter about it since i have to put up with it since XIII launched and it just wont stop so excuse me for being a bit passionate about the whole thing.

i really wonder why you are trying so hard to have the last word/upper hand here, i obviously wasnt talking about this thread in particular, i was talking about the large scale reception we had for the topic which was less then welcoming, and not because of the fact that it was a crossover but who it will be that crosses over

its also funny how i am the one throwing insults around now when you provoked me with a quite unflattering depiction and "future" statements in your very first response without even knowing me, which was quite insulting right from the get go, let alone very far from my opinion on the issue.
not to forget that arrogance dripping:

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

"I'm sorry, I didn't mean to post so many spoilers. It's just that, I've seen your kind of posts before, and I can predict it's path as sure as I can the sun coming up in the east and setting in the west. LOL "

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

nice of you to point out that im losing my cool about this issue like its the default winning condition of the other side, i admit i am very bitter about it since i have to put up with it since XIII launched and it just wont stop so excuse me for being a bit passionate about the whole thing.

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Well, there's "passion", and then there's "unnecessary rage". It's okay to have the former when talking about a game you like, not so much the latter. FFXIII was never on my top favorite Final Fantasy games list. (I even liked FFVIII more, and that's not n my top list either. lol) Nevertheless, it had an excellent story and the gameplay was extremely well done. However, there were certain aspects about the game i didn't like. On the other hand, that's not what this thread is about, nor is it what the OP was making this thread about. Like I said, you took the discussion into a different direction than where it was supposed to go. Nobody on this thread was criticizing Lightning or FFXIII. And even if they were, so freakin' what? LOL At the end of the day...

It's

Just

A

Video

Game.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

i really wonder why you are trying so hard to have the last word/upper hand here, i obviously wasnt talking about this thread in particular, i was talking about the large scale reception we had for the topic which was less then welcoming, and not because of the fact that it was a crossover but who it will be that crosses over

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Actually, I was responding to a point you made about people who had a concern over this issue flip-flopping and saying it's "okay" if a character they liked were put into ARR instead of Lightning. Not 100% sure if I'm correct here, but I think that's what's called a "base-rate fallacy" argument. I pointed out how silly it was to make such an assumption, especially since the character of Lightning herself is far from what the OP was concerned about.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

its also funny how i am the one throwing insults around now when you provoked me with a quite unflattering depiction and "future" statements in your very first response without even knowing me, which was quite insulting right from the get go, let alone very far from my opinion on the issue.

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Not too much more insulting than assuming with an arrogant air that the OP and others who aren't crazy about the idea of a cross-over are merely voicing their concern over this issue because they don't like Lightning or FFXIII and wanted a different character in her place. Especially since it was extremely and totally wrong, unfounded, and completely different from anything anyone was talking about. You know, like this post:

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

glad i could make you feel privileged^^
i hope you enjoy being part of the 10% of the compainers that dont want a crossover at all opposed to the 90% that are just butt devestated because its lightning and not cloud or squall.
a blind man could see that,
just because that is not the case for you personally doesnt make it less true.

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Pot: "Hey, kettle!"
Kettle: "Yeah?"
Pot: "You're black, you know that, right?"
Kettle: "Um... so are you."
Pot: "LIES!!"

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

Not too much more insulting than assuming with an arrogant air that the OP and others who aren't crazy about the idea of a cross-over are merely voicing their concern over this issue because they don't like Lightning or FFXIII and wanted a different character in her place.

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the tiny difference is that i didnt accuse op or anyone in paticular with that statement, it was referring to the people that are only angry because its not a character they liked that are very vocal at the moment, i could have worded it better in hindsight.

lets end this silly internet fight and agree that we both could have handled that better, its not really clear which one of us is the "pot" and which the "kettle"

I'd just like to step in and say I like cake. Cake and pie.

Is this relevant? No.

Does that make it less tasty? Not at all!

Carry on with your spirited debate now.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

the tiny difference is that i didnt accuse op or anyone in paticular with that statement, it was referring to the people that are only angry because its not a character they liked that are very vocal at the moment, i could have worded it better in hindsight.

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Or you could have simply not made such an implication to begin with. Because it wasn't really called for and out of place, whether you were referring to one person or many.

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Originally Posted by Yumi_Hibiki

lets end this silly internet fight and agree that we both could have handled that better, its not really clear which one of us is the "pot" and which the "kettle"

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Now that much I agree with, because it's gotten somewhat boring anyway, lol. I have a video to make for youtube anyway.

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Originally Posted by Zerosion

I'd just like to step in and say I like cake. Cake and pie.

Is this relevant? No.

Does that make it less tasty? Not at all!

Carry on with your spirited debate now.

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http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2179/...d576a2f57d.jpg

Cake-pie. A hybrid of cake and pie.

Check-mate.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

Sorry, Sleverin. My linkshell and I are on masamune. >.<

Then again, I'm sure I could create a character on a different realm if I so choose! :)

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If you wanted to, please do! I'm sure my FC/LS would be more than happy to bring you on board for when you wanted to visit. They're a great group of folks.

Since the topic has been a bit derailed, I thought I'd bring it a bit back home.

I, personally, do not like this crossover idea and have a lot of issues with it. To be honest, if SE came right out and said that this was purely a promotional device and that it was to service fans of the game with some vanity gear and an event, I'd be fine with it. However, they have stated (so far) that this is not a different version of Lightning and Snow, nor will it go unnoticed by those in Eorzea. I am hoping that the scope of the situation stays at something like an optional quest or behest, merely something to do but have the rest of the game left alone.

My main reason for pointing this out is that there has been no reason up to this point to reference any sort of weird multi-verse crossover potential and that there never would be, it would be superfluous at best, and a downright terrible story mechanic at worst. People will cry about the "Void" as if it's some call to a higher power, able to strike down any argument with some infallible purpose. We know little, if anything about this so-called dimension (if it can even be called that) and for what purpose it serves. Is it merely a Maguffin, a thing created solely for the purpose of the Dalamud storyline? Doubtful, as ARR has brought up the voidsent within the first few story missions. Either way, this Void is not some magic realm where all Final Fantasys exist simultaneously as if this were some Jungian pool of archetypes, able to pull any character out of a magic hat simply because the "Void" exists as a word. (The Void is essentially nothingness as a word by the way, it does not give one the means to travel dimensions by its mere existence.)

What is all this exposition for? I shall tell you, good forum goer, if you are willing to listen. The problem is, with any well established story, is that we have this idea cemented in our minds about what this game does and what happens as an internally consistent basis from what we've learned. Surely, some of you will say, "Well, we don't know everything, the rules could change at any moment." We could claim the same of reality, but that doesn't make it true. We know we need to breathe, eat, and drink. When we sleep, we will most likely wake in the morning. The rules simply do not change at the whim of some deity (i. e. writers) simply because they can come up with reasons as to why it wasn't mentioned beforehand. Anyone can do that by the way and it is called "retconning" and it usually shows of sloppy writing and demeaning to the audience. Simply because the lore team states that all of a sudden, Minfilia was a badger this whole time and we couldn't tell because over exposure to the Aether had made us see the whole world differently simply because they thought badgers were cool does not make the story any more plausible or any less of a blatant showing of terrible writing. Now, of course, we're not expecting this to be some Shakesperian tale which is fine. However, crossovers begin to destroy the cornerstone of what makes the story great.

In summation, crossovers have a major problem and that is: it simultaneously ruins both properties if the idea of the characters interacting with each other isn't already implemented in the story. Kingdom Hearts skips this whole thing right from the get go, hell it's on the package. It was not so with 14, and simply throwing a retcon into the situation should not make it acceptable to us as players, it should bother us a bit more.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

Either way, this Void is not some magic realm where all Final Fantasys exist simultaneously as if this were some Jungian pool of archetypes, able to pull any character out of a magic hat simply because the "Void" exists as a word. (The Void is essentially nothingness as a word by the way, it does not give one the means to travel dimensions by its mere existence.)

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I don't know if you're directing this at me (since I never said everything would come through the Void), but seeing as I brought up the 'Void' I'm going to assume you are referring to me. In which case, you completely missed my point. Namely, Realm-crossing happens in-universe, therefore, it's not an impossibility.

The mechanism may not be the void, it may be the Mother Crystal (that giant crystal you see in the main storyline multiple times) which has the ability to summon multiple adventurers awarenesses into its presence at any given time. Seemingly, with very little effort, but always for a reason. Seems fairly reasonable that with some additional effort (Or, more likely, aether), the crystal could very well summon a physical body from a galaxy far, far away, or perhaps from another 'realm' since obviously, Atomos has this power (to summon things from another realm) and has already appeared in 1.xx, though he is not involved in every instance where something is spawned from the void (See certain Dungeons). Also, in every one of my examples, including Lightning, they already have this power (Or something very, very, very, very similar to it, time-hopping and dimension-hopping are one and the same to me), it wasn't provided to them specifically for this event through some retconning.

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The void is a generic term that inhabitants of Eorzea have given to a dark realm they believe exists beyond their own. When a creature is deemed to be too unnatural to be "of Eorzea" (such as ahrimans), they are often categorized as "voidsent", based on the common belief that they were sent by some sinister force from beyond the corporeal realm.
The void is also said to be the origin of the creatures present on the Dzemael Darkhold and the Thousand Maws of Toto-Rak. Upon advancing on the instances, some of the creatures will "retreat into the void", while others will emerge from it, effectively changing the monsters currently on the area.

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Source - FFXIV section

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

In summation, crossovers have a major problem and that is: it simultaneously ruins both properties if the idea of the characters interacting with each other isn't already implemented in the story.

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Serious question. Do gag characters that get involved with the main storyline characters bother you? Like Hildibrand. After all, he's just some random guy, who inexplicably has the title of 'Inspector Extraordinaire', survived an explosion that had enough power to rocket him to Dalamud only because he had Gag-Character Invulnerability, and has Urianger appear multiple times in his questline. He's not a crossover character, but there's way less reasonable explanations for him than there will be for Lightning. Which isn't what I'd consider retconning, since all the mechanisms for bringing in Lightning are there already in both XIII (From what I understand, XIII-2 is basically Lightning in Time, and XIII-3 is basically Lightning: Majora's Mask) and XIV, namely Dimension/Time-hopping.

Edit: Hildibrand, at his finest. (Shameless Plug!)

I don't understand what is so great about Lightning anyway personally I feel her series isn't that great

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Originally Posted by Volker_Mateus

I don't understand what is so great about Lightning anyway personally I feel her series isn't that great

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There were plenty of others who felt the same way. I, on the other hand, enjoyed every second of Final Fantasy XIII and XIII-2. I would gladly play Lightning Returns, but first i will need to find me a new Playstation 3. (>_<; )

One of the things i love about Final Fantasy games, is their story telling. The way they present their game and it's story is enough for me to play each installment of the series. Another thing i loved in the series was the level progression. Spending time leveling my characters to their max level and increasing their stats by unlocking traits/spells/abilities in the progress.

For example:

• The Materia System in Final Fantasy VII
• Drawing magic from monsters in Final Fantasy VIII
• Learning abilities through gear in Final Fantasy IX
• The Sphere Grid in Final Fantasy X
• The Licence Board in Final Fantasy XII
• The Crystarium in Final Fantasy XIII(-2)

Each system felt fresh in it own way and provided me with hours upon hours of playtime, Final Fantasy XIII(-2) included.

The main reason why i liked Lightning so much, was probably that she had the same type of charm about her like Cloud and Squall. Tough , closed off and rugged personality in the beginning due to her military background, but slowly opens up (while the story progresses through the game)... Turning her into a pillar that supports and protects the people she cares about.

That's why i love her as a character.

The issue here is not, of course, whether or not we like Lightning but more of the point of how crossovers cause more problems than they solve and that in the end they demean properties that they come from and go to. This is speaking more directly to the Final Fantasy series in the fact that the reason we loved these characters in the first place is that their stories are singular representations of the work. They had a story that was told, we loved it and their role in it and a new story has come along in which we can again love new characters without forgetting the old.

To use Shakespeare as a point, we do not see him throw Hamlet into every play he can, despite the fact that it's noted that he is obviously Shakespeare's favorite character by looking at the lines he has and the amount of dialogue he uses. Why not? It wouldn't make sense for the Prince of Denmark to just suddenly appear in Macbeth say as the times are completely different and though everyone loves Hamlet he would seem so out of place in Scotland it would make the story irreverent.

@Aish I haven't read any of your posts or even knew that you had posted in this thread, I was merely bringing up this plot point that everyone seems quite bent on bringing up, that which is known as the "Void". To call it a different plane of existence (i.e. a Realm) is questionable, as we only know of creatures that come from a place so abhorrent we view their very existence as alien to our own. To use this possible device to explain why Lightning would be here would be rather questionable at best as it would make her a creature of the Void itself would it not? By being so she would in fact be an enemy to us, as the only things known to come from the Void are beasts and hideous demons.

This point of this "Mother Crystal" that is also brought up is another point I find highly suspect. Many bring this up, using the exact same words as you do yet I fail to see how any of this is relevant, or in fact even true. We honestly don't know what happened at Carteneau Flats, no one does. For all we know we were stationed in the flow of Aether that we travel across and were left between waking reality and this Crystal which could be a binder of our reality, not unlike the ones in XI. It's superfluous, however, as neither of these ideas are crossing dimensions, nor are they any sort of time travel. We were not thrown five years into the future, as if Doc Brown aka Louisoix came along and threw us in the DeLorean and told us to work it out when we got there. Stasis is our best explanation at this point for what happened to us through the intervention of Louisoix, or quite possible the Twelve. The only way we can perceive times other than our own is through the Echo, but this is merely for viewing and not any sort of travel.

As for gag characters, I must reiterate my point about "it's on the package". Hildibrand is a known joke character, he's there for levity and laughs. Writers often employ a character such as this to ease tension, relax the audience, and help set up other ideas for higher drama. Without using this device, the audience can become exhausted at your narrative, weakened by your ideas of high drama and without some levity the rhythm of your work will falter and the work itself will fail. I actually didn't do the Hildibrand quests, so I had no idea about this yet it does not mean much that Urianger was involved. Urianger's point (at least in that scene) was to be a fulcrum for the joke as his spouting of that A/A rhyming scheme across Eorzea inspired Hildibrand to think of himself as a hero which isn't far fetched seeing as Hildibrand thinks quite highly of himself. However, this scene doesn't have any sort of bothersome effects upon the story as Urianger is just there, he doesn't suddenly drop dead or sprout 6 Hydra heads. If Hildibrand were to slap Raubahn around while in the Coliseum, Suplex him like Sabin and then toss him out of the arena, then yes, this would be a major problem. His interactions with Urianger, however, are in fact pointedly justifiable for the reasons stated before. I don't see how this makes less sense than if Lightning were to suddenly appear through some dimension hopping idea.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

To use this possible device to explain why Lightning would be here would be rather questionable at best as it would make her a creature of the Void itself would it not? By being so she would in fact be an enemy to us, as the only things known to come from the Void are beasts and hideous demons.

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Again, you missed the point I was making. Namely 'Realm-hopping' is not some random power attributed to Lightning only for this. I was pointing out that Crossing realms already exists in-game, my prime example being the Void, this does not automatically mean that the Void will be used, it only establishes that it's possible to cross dimensions. And again, during the beta storyline, the crystal summons our incorporeal forms in to it's presence. Multiple times. And even other adventurers. With a greater push, it could conceivably summon physical bodies, since, well, we adventurers travel the aether highways all the time. There's none of this retconning going on. Neither in FFXIV, nor was there any involved in Lightning's ability (Time travel, edit: which, if I'm not mistaken, she has in the second game.) to come here.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

However, this scene doesn't have any sort of bothersome effects upon the story as Urianger is just there, he doesn't suddenly drop dead or sprout 6 Hydra heads.

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Again, Lightning will have no impact on the main story either. The only substantial difference between the two characters? Lightning has a fully fleshed out story. Period. Lightning is going to, legitimately, be here using a mechanism already in-place in both games.

I suppose you could make the case that Hildibrand has his own adventure, focused on him as well, but then the only true difference between the two is that Lightning was in a different game.

Might I point out that all of the Final Fantasy games take place in the same universe, but on different worlds? Well, most of them anyway.

Adds Depth and Unity to the series.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

Might I point out that all of the Final Fantasy games take place in the same universe, but on different worlds? Well, most of them anyway.

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I don't mean to be obtuse, but what does this even mean? Like different planets in the same solar system? Different solar systems? Where can one obtain this information? ;)

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Originally Posted by Byonka

Adds Depth and Unity to the series.

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Not if it destroys the depth and unity of the story.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

Well, firstly, it's just a video game. And Lightning is just a character. There's no need to get that up in arms about people saying they don't like her. Heck, Sephiroth gets lots of criticism as a character as well. You don't see me spazzing about it. It's just a fictional character in a video game set in a fictional world. Lighten up, Francis.

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"It's just a video game." So why does any of this even matter to you when, as you say, it's "just a video game"? Why would Lightning crossing over with FFXIV bother you when it's just another fictional character in a video game's fictional world? If you can use this to pad your argument with someone defending a character they like, I can also use this towards you in regard to your concerns over story & crossovers.

You shouldn't worry about defending your position, because I mean, it's just a fictional story in video game involving fictional characters. It doesn't matter at all! :3

yo dawg I heard you like fictional characters in a fictional world

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Originally Posted by Rythwen

"It's just a video game." So why does any of this even matter to you when, as you say, it's "just a video game"? Why would Lightning crossing over with FFXIV bother you when it's just another fictional character in a video game's fictional world? If you can use this to pad your argument with someone defending a character they like, I can also use this towards you in regard to your concerns over story & crossovers.

You shouldn't worry about defending your position, because I mean, it's just a fictional story in video game involving fictional characters. It doesn't matter at all! :3

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(facepalm)

I can't believe I have to even explain this, but as I said before to the person I was talking to with the quote you used, there's a huge difference between voicing concerns about something and raging about it in heated profanity. Yes, I do have concerns about the Lightning crossover. But, unlike the person I was talking about, I didn't go on a huge tirade about it. Because, as I said before, at the end of the day, it is just a game.

Yes, a game I love a lot, but a game, nonetheless. And no video game is enough to get me to go ballistic like that. Because I'm sane, rational, and over the age of two. lol

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

I don't mean to be obtuse, but what does this even mean? Like different planets in the same solar system? Different solar systems? Where can one obtain this information? ;)

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I would say different star systems, but in the same galaxy. People can reach the different worlds by travelling on asteroids.

You can know this by playing the games, of course. ;)

It's heavily implied in V, and is almost down right stated in IV:After Years.

@SkyWindbinder

You have an arrogant air about you.

At any rate, I personally have no problem with this as I view the series more as a universe than each entry in the series being its own.

I remember being 15 or 16 and wishing that I had a game where my character could travel through each game's world, MMO-style, and experience them in a new light. I'm sure that seems silly, but at the time it would've been the Holy Grail of games for me. XD

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Originally Posted by Rythwen

@SkyWindbinder

You have an arrogant air about you.

At any rate, I personally have no problem with this as I view the series more as a universe than each entry in the series being its own.

I remember being 15 or 16 and wishing that I had a game where my character could travel through each game's world, MMO-style, and experience them in a new light. I'm sure that seems silly, but at the time it would've been the Holy Grail of games for me. XD

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lol Pride is both my strength and weakness. It's just how I am, no offense meant.

I've always viewed each world of the series as it's own, though part of the general entity that is Final Fantasy. If a crossover with them is done right, I guess I can live with it. I just don't want this game being treated as ad revenue for other Final Fantasies, or as a dumping ground for cross-over fanboy fantasy ideas. Not that cross-overs are always bad, mind. I'd just like ARR to be able to stand on it's own legs without help from guest stars from other games. Maybe if they'd waited a bit longer to introduce lightning and Snow...

Then again, they're likely doing this to push Lightning Returns, which actually makes it even more cheesy imo. lol I just hope Yoshi handles this right. And I hope it's a one-time thing.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

lol Pride is both my strength and weakness. It's just how I am, no offense meant.

I've always viewed each world of the series as it's own, though part of the general entity that is Final Fantasy. If a crossover with them is done right, I guess I can live with it. I just don't want this game being treated as ad revenue for other Final Fantasies, or as a dumping ground for cross-over fanboy fantasy ideas. Not that cross-overs are always bad, mind. I'd just like ARR to be able to stand on it's own legs without help from guest stars from other games. Maybe if they'd waited a bit longer to introduce lightning and Snow...

Then again, they're likely doing this to push Lightning Returns, which actually makes it even more cheesy imo. lol I just hope Yoshi handles this right. And I hope it's a one-time thing.

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I can understand people's concern, but I suppose I'm viewing ARR as not just another numbered FF, but almost a celebration of FF itself. We've got Magitek and materia woven into the game's lore, which were staples of other games, but they did it to where it worked. I know these aren't characters, but I don't see it as much different than Lightning showing up. We've also got nice charms like the Goobue mounts, the Warrior of Light helm, the Onion Helm, and I'm sure we'll have other items that show up that nod at other entries in the series.

While I know actual items, mounts, etc. aren't really part of the grand scheme, how are Magitek and materia being part of this game's lore much different than a character (which will probably not have any lore that affects the main story, in my opinion) being brought in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Magitek or materia being in any of the other main entries.

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Originally Posted by Rythwen

While I know actual items, mounts, etc. aren't really part of the grand scheme, how are Magitek and materia being part of this game's lore much different than a character (which will probably not have any lore that affects the main story, in my opinion) being brought in.

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I don't mean to be presumptuous, and it's fine if you disagree with me, but I do actually attempt to provide a rationale as to why it is different in my OP. ;)

Gilgamesh
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgamesh

All arguments about crossing over is bad or the different FF worlds are not connected have now been rendered invalid...

Why this is even going on is beyond reason really...

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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Originally Posted by Rythwen

I can understand people's concern, but I suppose I'm viewing ARR as not just another numbered FF, but almost a celebration of FF itself. We've got Magitek and materia woven into the game's lore, which were staples of other games, but they did it to where it worked. I know these aren't characters, but I don't see it as much different than Lightning showing up. We've also got nice charms like the Goobue mounts, the Warrior of Light helm, the Onion Helm, and I'm sure we'll have other items that show up that nod at other entries in the series.

While I know actual items, mounts, etc. aren't really part of the grand scheme, how are Magitek and materia being part of this game's lore much different than a character (which will probably not have any lore that affects the main story, in my opinion) being brought in. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Magitek or materia being in any of the other main entries.

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Well, one of the staple features of Final Fantasy is that certain elements have always shown up in each Final Fantasy in one form or another. Chocobos, airships, a guy named Cid, summoned monsters, Biggs and Wedge... these have always been repeatable staples of Final Fantasy universes. However, it's rare that huge characters specific to their own universe show up in other Final Fantasies. Lightning is one such character. I think that's what is making me just a tad leery about how this is going to go down. Also, as I said, I just want this game to stand and succeed on it's own legs, without help from fan service that could make it see dated and corny. I'm at least 90% Yoshi can make a good lore surrounding Lightning and Snow's purpose in Eorzea. However, I will still be watching this with a keen eye, and you'd best believe I will be giving my opinion on whether or not Yoshi did this right. lol Also, since Lightning Returns is, as I said, just around the corner, I just can't help but get this feeling that Lightning being in Eorzea is an ad ploy of some sort.

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Originally Posted by NadienKirisame

Gilgamesh
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Gilgamesh

All arguments about crossing over is bad or the different FF worlds are not connected have now been rendered invalid...

Why this is even going on is beyond reason really...

The cat is bemused =-.-=

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Which might be a little more purposeful if people were saying all crossovers were bad or that the worlds weren't connected. The point of this thread is to express an entirely different opinion, no offense.

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

I don't mean to be presumptuous, and it's fine if you disagree with me, but I do actually attempt to provide a rationale as to why it is different in my OP. ;)

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I reread your OP. While I see what you mean, I still don't really agree and I suppose we'll just have to leave it at that. ^^;

@SkyeWindbinder

I understand the example with chocobos, airships, Cid, Biggs & Wedge, cactuar, etc. But with Magitek, I don't recall it showing up on any other main entry, and it's been implemented from FFVI into XIV's lore. I mean, in my main Grand Company story, I actually have to fight Magitek. Perhaps I'm way off, but I feel like that staple of VI, while a little altered from VI itself, isn't much different than a character from another game coming.

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Originally Posted by Rythwen

@SkyeWindbinder

I understand the example with chocobos, airships, Cid, Biggs & Wedge, cactuar, etc. But with Magitek, I don't recall it showing up on any other main entry, and it's been implemented from FFVI into XIV's lore. I mean, in my main Grand Company story, I actually have to fight Magitek. Perhaps I'm way off, but I feel like that staple of VI, while a little altered from VI itself, isn't much different than a character from another game coming.

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True. Then again, Magitek is an item lore, much like airships and crystals are. I'm speaking of major characters that are specific to their FF world. I'm more unquestioningly accepting of magitek showing up than I am of Lightning making a cameo. With that, well, I'll just have to wait and see.

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Originally Posted by Rythwen

@SkyeWindbinder

I understand the example with chocobos, airships, Cid, Biggs & Wedge, cactuar, etc. But with Magitek, I don't recall it showing up on any other main entry, and it's been implemented from FFVI into XIV's lore. I mean, in my main Grand Company story, I actually have to fight Magitek. Perhaps I'm way off, but I feel like that staple of VI, while a little altered from VI itself, isn't much different than a character from another game coming.

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In name alone, sure its only previous incarnation was VI, however there have been plenty of other stand-alone games where what was essentially "Magitek named something else" played just as prominent a role. Magicite in XII is one example, Mako in VII is another. While it may intially seem dubious that XIV reuses VI's tech terms (and even further, its tech aestheics) it's not like the world building and principle aesthetic wasn't already accommodating to this particular aspect beforehand. There's a lot in XIV that already allows for things such as Amano's earlier designs to exist without completely turning the game's design on its head. XIII's Lightning/weapons/clothing, on the otherhand, kiiiiinda does exactly that.

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Originally Posted by SkyeWindbinder

True. Then again, Magitek is an item lore, much like airships and crystals are. I'm speaking of major characters that are specific to their FF world. I'm more unquestioningly accepting of magitek showing up than I am of Lightning making a cameo. With that, well, I'll just have to wait and see.

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I'm seeing where you guys are coming from, and I can see where it'd be different than item lore. In the end, it still doesn't bug me but I'm not going to knock you guys for your opinions. I get the feeling that this will still benefit SE in the long run, and if it helps them as a company without being too absurd then I've no issues. I'm sure they have a lot riding on ARR and Lightning Returns, so whatever exposure they can get is good.

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Originally Posted by Aish

Again, you missed the point I was making. Namely 'Realm-hopping' is not some random power attributed to Lightning only for this. I was pointing out that Crossing realms already exists in-game, my prime example being the Void, this does not automatically mean that the Void will be used, it only establishes that it's possible to cross dimensions. And again, during the beta storyline, the crystal summons our incorporeal forms in to it's presence. Multiple times. And even other adventurers. With a greater push, it could conceivably summon physical bodies, since, well, we adventurers travel the aether highways all the time. There's none of this retconning going on. Neither in FFXIV, nor was there any involved in Lightning's ability (Time travel, edit: which, if I'm not mistaken, she has in the second game.) to come here.



Again, Lightning will have no impact on the main story either. The only substantial difference between the two characters? Lightning has a fully fleshed out story. Period. Lightning is going to, legitimately, be here using a mechanism already in-place in both games.

I suppose you could make the case that Hildibrand has his own adventure, focused on him as well, but then the only true difference between the two is that Lightning was in a different game.

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I must reply that I did not, in fact, miss your point, I merely took it to its logical conclusion. The idea of the Void as an alternate reality is incorrect because of something that I've touched on in a way but not fully discussed. To use a Classical example, we can say that we live on Earth. We have the heavens above us, on which the deities reside and that below us, Hades and its realms. These are all apart of the same "world" and function within each others existence. The deities above and below can see the plane upon which we live and act in manners accordingly to what they witness.

The same must be said of ideas of where the Mother Crystal resides (it would seem that this is more of a collective unconscious, a sort of Jungian view) which would not quite be what we associate as heaven but as more a place for souls to gather and harmonize. This might be a bit more Platonic than what is actually happening, but I'm saying all this to make a point, not to assume things of our limited information. Following this path, we can easily see where my example is going, that this "Void" is an absence of the that which is good and right (i.e. basic structured order of what is around us and that which created it [at least we would think] which would be the Crystal[s]).

Following all this, we can see that these are all, in fact, part of the same idea of existence and are not of alternate worlds that do not interact or coincide with each other. Through this we can see that there is no travel between alternate dimensions, but merely through planes of existence, not as one walks through a door but more like one rides a plane to a foreign country. It's difficult and take great expenditure of energy to do so, but can be done, even if we don't understand it.

Here's where this Lightning crossover becomes a problem, not simply because it is this single event alone that does it, but it opens doors for future crossovers which would meddle with the game and it's story. Lightning is in no way a part of Eorzea, she is not from there nor has she ever participated in its creation or been part of its timeline. This is the important part here, especially in reference to the idea of retconning. As to where the Crystal resides is in no way an alternate reality nor is the Void, the implication that must be made is that for some reason, she can access Eorzea. Yet without her being an omniscient being, how would she know about this alternate reality? How could she, in fact, even access this place without someone telling her of it except through complete random chance? On top of that, how would Eorzea even support an idea like this with being retconned? It cannot be said that alternate realities exist or that they can even be accessed without shoehorning this in at a later date and using the story device they implemented specifically for this type of event. And by doing so they can open the door for further experimentation with this idea by using any sort of quasi-dimensional travel that any character in Final Fantasy has used to simply sidestep into our game world.

That is also how it is different from Hildibrand in the fact the Hildibrand is here, he's been in the game as a plausible character with no extra baggage or anything like that and he even interacts with main plot characters and doesn't affect the main plot. Lightning doesn't, yet her mere presence changes the rules of the game world with instant retconning by her simply walking into Eorzea.

QED.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

QED.

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Okay, you've convinced me that there could possibly be some retconning. However, your classical example may not even be applicable since:

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Hades itself was described as being either at the outer bounds of the ocean or beneath the depths or ends of the earth. It was considered the dark counterpart to the brightness of Mount Olympus, and was the kingdom of the dead that corresponded to the kingdom of the gods

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Source

The underlined portion suggests a physical location in our world. As far as I know, the Crystal and the Void have no physical connection to Eorzea, which, to me, lends less credibility to your same 'world' argument.

You also seem to be making a distinction between separate planes of existence and alternate dimensions. To me, they are one and the same.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

Yet without her being an omniscient being, how would she know about this alternate reality?

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Lightning stands before the goddess's throne and is briefly made one with [the goddess] Etro.

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Source

Make of this what you will.

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

...he's been in the game as a plausible character with no extra baggage or anything like that and he even interacts with main plot characters and doesn't affect the main plot.

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Again, Lightning will not affect the main plot, retconning aside.

I can accept slight retconning for a fun event without feeling the story has been harmed. While I'll agree that they shouldn't get too crazy with the amount of cross-overs, I feel that they're offering a decent compromise on the issue that's very close to the middle-ground of [Lightning vs. No Lightning].

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Originally Posted by Sleverin

QED.

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I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Final Fantasy cosmology. Each game of the Final Fantasy series takes place not in an alternate universe, or in an extra-dimensional plane, but on its own planet in the same universe (or more likely, galaxy). Travel between these worlds is very difficult, but possible, and it has been done. This has been accomplished by travelling in an asteroid (V, IV: After Years), or travelling through the void (V, VIII, IX, XII). This is not to say that alternate timelines don't exist (IX: Wings of the Goddess, XIII-2), or that alternate worlds exist (IX, XI: Abyssea, Dissidia), but for the most part, the default is that each game in the Final Fantasy series takes place on a different planet with various themes (although it does bring up questions about how humans have managed to appear on these different worlds, or how chocobos appeared as well, although there is a bit more evolutionary diversity than in humans, but I digress...). Atomos also seems to have the power to transverse worlds (V, XI: Wings of the Goddess, XI: Abyssea, XIV), as it has the power to transverse dimensions and time. The Void also seems to be a bit of a mystery at this point, but it appears to be an extra-dimensional system through which one can travel. It's not unlike wormholes which connect to distant points in space.

Now, if travel between worlds is possible in the Final Fantasy galaxy (or universe, or whatever), what makes this statement true?

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It cannot be said that alternate realities exist or that they can even be accessed without shoehorning this in at a later date and using the story device they implemented specifically for this type of event. And by doing so they can open the door for further experimentation with this idea by using any sort of quasi-dimensional travel that any character in Final Fantasy has used to simply sidestep into our game world.

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Provided that the world of XIV already allows for the transport from one point to another via Aethernet system, who's to say that there can't be a force powerful enough to transport a being from one world to this one through this very same system?

There need not be any retconning or story changing here, as it's already provided in the Final Fantasy galaxy that it is possible to travel between worlds, provided one has the means and power to do so. All we know is that Lightning (and THE Lightning, not a clone of one) is in XIV, but we don't know how or why yet. That's something that has yet to be explained, but it is not impossible for her to be there, or for any previous Final Fantasy character to be in XIV.

QED.

Although slightly jarring, crossovers are fine, provided they are executed with caution. With that said, I can think of plenty of scenarios in which Lightning can be a part of Eorzea without retcon issues. One example could be that in XIV's time, it is Eorzea. But in the far far distant future it is something else I entirely. We can see examples of this in our own world. Our time on Earth has been but a split second in comparison to the rest of the world's time.

The point is that regardless of what we think, the lore is not ours to decide. If they construct it terribly,that is one thing, however, we should wait to pass judgment until they have given us more to see.

On a side note, I also agree that this is a marketing ploy. Hopefully a fun, well executed one.

Double side note, when writing in a high level, you should be prepared to meet resistance with regards to your ideas and opinions. I am not telling you to dumb down your writing, just know that it is easy to cause confusion. Also note, that there may be readers who understand what your underlying writing is saying, and that the hypocrisy is easy to read.


PS has anyone in this thread played all of the games to ending to see the story on XIII's side? I feel that the point of this crossover may be to enjoy both stories and see where they connect. I personally felt that the crystalization of Cocoon looks very similar to the 'scars' of Eorzea's Bahamut's temper tantrum.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Final Fantasy cosmology. Each game of the Final Fantasy series takes place not in an alternate universe, or in an extra-dimensional plane, but on its own planet in the same universe (or more likely, galaxy). Travel between these worlds is very difficult, but possible, and it has been done. This has been accomplished by travelling in an asteroid (V, IV: After Years), or travelling through the void (V, VIII, IX, XII). This is not to say that alternate timelines don't exist (IX: Wings of the Goddess, XIII-2), or that alternate worlds exist (IX, XI: Abyssea, Dissidia), but for the most part, the default is that each game in the Final Fantasy series takes place on a different planet with various themes (although it does bring up questions about how humans have managed to appear on these different worlds, or how chocobos appeared as well, although there is a bit more evolutionary diversity than in humans, but I digress...). Atomos also seems to have the power to transverse worlds (V, XI: Wings of the Goddess, XI: Abyssea, XIV), as it has the power to transverse dimensions and time. The Void also seems to be a bit of a mystery at this point, but it appears to be an extra-dimensional system through which one can travel. It's not unlike wormholes which connect to distant points in space.

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Ok, you have me intrigued. As far as I understand it, although some single FFs take place on multiple nearby worlds (V), and some even take place on the same world (Spira, Ivalice), nowhere do we have a specific reference that places two separate FFs on different worlds (or world-groupings) within the same physical plane. To clarify, what I would be looking for is a reference that says, for example, Hydaelyn and Spira are some number of light-years away from each other and you could travel from one to another if only you had a sufficiently effective mode of direct transport (i.e. not teleporting).