A Little Pain with my Pleasure

Death penalty? EXP loss?

Stop! You are killing me with that joke. And stop dreaming in the 04's.
It's a new age, therefore a new demand for gaming.
If you want that bad go play FFXI!

Conclusion: In RPGs, Save points infront of boss rooms ruin games.

Just the vibe I'm getting from some people~

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Originally Posted by DardGhalawad

Death penalty? EXP loss?

Stop! You are killing me with that joke. And stop dreaming in the 04's.
It's a new age, therefore a new demand for gaming.
If you want that bad go play FFXI!

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Enough with these arbitrary time constraints.
If you have good reason why it shouldn't be around, say it. "It's old/outdated" doesn't actually mean anything without context. Why is it outated? Why are other systems better?

Let's be clear and reasonable. We can talk about how depressing it is to loose so much experience when something terrible happens. Or how gear repair breaks up the game better than continual battle to get back to where you where before you experienced a totally humiliating defeat spawned by your own ineptitude and terrible choice in battle companions.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

I am a little indifferent to the idea. It's something like having to run back as a ghost in WoW. The only thing I don't like about both of them is people don't complete them at the same time. In the case of WoW some people get lost or head the wrong direction on auto run. The raid ends up waiting for stragglers.

At least your idea is different then WoW. If you post as new thread it would get a lot more attention. I doubt anyone wants to continue reading this thread, except those who really want or appall the exp loss/deleveling system.

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All forms of Death Penalty take different amounts of time depending on the player. Some players don't level crafts, so gear damage takes gil to repair, thereby taking longer if you count the time it takes to make the gil. Some players exp slower than others, some players have jobs that take longer to exp than others.

The reason you notice it here is because there is a direct relationship between death and penalty, rather than being two separate incidences. With WoW's system, and the one I described, the penalty is immediate, and therefore more tangible.

I'd be for it, considering how easy it is to level a class up. Might actually extend that time up. But I'mma die hard EQ fan who used to go dungeon delving just for player corpses, sooo..

I don't see anything wrong with it. It's not outdated, it just means you have to earn your levels. I may not be for corpse hunts and deleveling, but replacing the repair system would be nice, or finding a nice compromise in between wouldn't be bad.

It 's not exactly a skill thing but it does keep you on your toes and does make you think twice before falling half asleep at the wheel. It would reduce the performance issues of certain players, or at least make these troubled players quit faster or actually pay attention in groups.

Any time I hear people say it's outdated, I actually hear "It's too hard or too annoying!" Considering the other things that are already repetitive in an MMO, even with FFXIV, It's not as bad as other mechanics.

They wouldn't have exp loss because SE knows people quit FF11 in the eairly levels because of it. Most people are fine with repairs cause gil isn't that hard to get.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Enough with these arbitrary time constraints.
If you have good reason why it shouldn't be around, say it. "It's old/outdated" doesn't actually mean anything without context. Why is it outated? Why are other systems better?

Let's be clear and reasonable. We can talk about how depressing it is to loose so much experience when something terrible happens. Or how gear repair breaks up the game better than continual battle to get back to where you where before you experienced a totally humiliating defeat spawned by your own ineptitude and terrible choice in battle companions.

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I was being sarcastic :)

People try to find a way to identify other previous games they played with FFXIV.
Off course in my reason exp penalty after death, in FFXIV, is like drinking an hot cup full of alchool with broken shaving blades in it. Got the feelling?
People don't understand that there is already a penalty for leveling and dieing, It's the repair system!
Not only takes your gil, it also takes your time to level all the DoH for you to be able to repair not only the "peebles" that we all wear during the path of leveling but also to repair the "shinny" that we have at the end game.
These facts render the death penalty with loss of exp, useless and outdated.

Ok, games have had the exp loss and the repair bill, are there any other forms of death penalties out there? Just looking to get an idea of what else might have been tried.

I think trying something new might be interesting. Like if you die you have the gear damage and are a ghost, like in WoW, except when you get back to your corpse you have to defeat a reaper that is coming to claim your soul from your corpse. If you lose to him, you suffer an exp loss and resurrect at the nearest atherite, if you defeat him, you come back with only the gear damage. If someone casts raise on you, it defeats the reaper and you suffer no exp loss, only gear damage. Just no de-levelling, being stuck at the beginning of the level is bad enough.

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Originally Posted by DardGhalawad

I was being sarcastic :)

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I literally can not tell anymore!

Yea im pretty sure ffxiv is going to be filled with a bunch of crybaby brats that dont like a challenge. Bring the Exp penalty back. Repair bill no thanks.

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Originally Posted by schism

Yea im pretty sure ffxiv is going to be filled with a bunch of crybaby brats that dont like a challenge. Bring the Exp penalty back. Repair bill no thanks.

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Oh the irony of this post.

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Originally Posted by schism

Yea im pretty sure ffxiv is going to be filled with a bunch of crybaby brats that dont like a challenge. Bring the Exp penalty back. Repair bill no thanks.

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I bet you're one of those guys who ragequits a Ifrit or Mog party after 1 wipe because the group didn't one shot the boss.

First i will say sorry for my bad english that isn't my native language.

Let's check some fact : FFXI death penality aren't only the xp lost , there is lot more just let check:
- HP/MP are reduced to nearly 25% of ur normal HP/MP
- u have a 100% slow effect on u

u can also be double weakened what result of :
-player's ranged attack/accuracy and magic attack/accuracy are set to their respective lowest value possible. Magic Attack in particular will be set to zero, causing all attacks that use Magic Attack Bonus as a damage modifier to do 0 damage.

Now let's check the XIV weakness
- 25% HP reduction
- 25% MP reduction

if u died again when u are affected by weakness u get brink of death effect :
- 50% HP reduction
- 50% MP reduction
- 50% attack power reduction
- 50% magic potency reduction
- 50% defense reduction
- 50% magic defense reduction

So basically the death effect are nearly the same the only thing that differ between XI and XIV is u have a slow effect and when u are double weakened on XI if u are a ranged attack or magic user u can't do anything else that try to support if u have the subjob to do it.

After yes we can say that death in XIV don't put much restriction on the player and then zombie strategy pop up , but i will only say that i have play XI from US release have done nearly all the event(haven't done Legion) of the game with several Ls.

And back in 2004 there was zombie strategy , and more as double weakened wasn't introduced yet.One thing u can ask urself is why in XI magic and ranged attack job nearly do no dmg as there skill go down when double weakened , and then other DD suffer only of slow (that still affect mage and ranged attack).

I really think maybe we should work on the weakness already existing and add a reduce refresh and regain when u are weak for example instead of let say :
- 10 TP , 30 MP when unweak
- 5TP , 15 MP when weak
- 1 TP , 3 Mp when break of death

Personnally i'm not for or against the use of xp lost , i only show what are the current weakened effect is on the 2 games and also want to say that xp loses wasn't stoping anything or make player not rely on zombie strategy.
Also u know back in XI ls was doing xp party for sake of doing again xp buffer.

Sorry again if my post is unclear or bad , english isn't my mother language.
And sorry for the long post

I don't even think XP loss is the right answer to make people fear death, I do however think that failing a Raid, Instance, whatever should at least impose some sort of lock-out for a set period of time where players can get back together smash their heads together to brainstorm what went wrong instead of smashing their heads against the wall until it works.

I don't even mean anything extreme, just give everyone a long enough chance to refocus, hash out their ideas (15-20 min like Primal Cooldowns when you win) instead of pushing people to just ram into the content again without being able to recharge.

As for open world content I feel a cooldown on teleportation should be imposed, yet get dead, you wait a few minutes before you can teleport again. There has to be something, anything, to make you actually feel like death is something you should avoid...no repair bills don't do it at least IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Mjollnir

I'd prefer enforced perma-death. Though I'll offer the generous suggestion that your following character has access to the dead one's retainers and...

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You do this, and pray to heavens you never d/c or crash when your mid fight or say... Standing in a poison room. Log in dead and guess what?! Gotta do all that questing/leveling again.

THIS IS SMART! #sarcasm....

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Originally Posted by Jynx

I don't even think XP loss is the right answer to make people fear death, I do however think that failing a Raid, Instance, whatever should at least impose some sort of lock-out for a set period of time where players can get back together smash their heads together to brainstorm what went wrong instead of smashing their heads against the wall until it works.

I don't even mean anything extreme, just give everyone a long enough chance to refocus, hash out their ideas (15-20 min like Primal Cooldowns when you win) instead of pushing people to just ram into the content again without being able to recharge.

As for open world content I feel a cooldown on teleportation should be imposed, yet get dead, you wait a few minutes before you can teleport again. There has to be something, anything, to make you actually feel like death is something you should avoid...no repair bills don't do it at least IMHO.

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Any kind of large cooldown period between retries will doom all fights to be largely the same in strategy or very simple and easy to learn. Fights that require everyone to know proper timings and to stay focused 100% of the time, and fights that require people to learn new stuff are going to take too long.

There are times when I raided in WOW where the raid wiped on a single boss 40-50 times before being close to downing it. Can you imagine what that would be like with a 10-30 minute wait between attempts?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

There are times when I raided in WOW where the raid wiped on a single boss 40-50 times before being close to downing it. Can you imagine what that would be like with a 10-30 minute wait between attempts?

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So was the 40-50 attempts you learning the fight? Guess I'm just the kind of guy who likes to probably think about things before going into it again.

If you wiped 40-50 times knowing the fight...then something is wrong.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

So was the 40-50 attempts you learning the fight? Guess I'm just the kind of guy who likes to probably think about things before going into it again.

If you wiped 40-50 times knowing the fight...then something is wrong.

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You don't learn timings and reflexes by thinking about them, and you don't know them naturally.

If you personally can do a boss fight by just having read it or done it once or twice and then sat down to think about it, then you must either be the best pro-gamer there ever was or a computer.

I also love how FFXI players like to lord it over others that they're so much better at PVE than anyone else, and people who die to bosses or have to practice are bad players.

I'd love to see what your achievements were like if you ever played WOW, because surely you must have been raiding with Method.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I also love how FFXI players like to lord it over others that they're so much better at PVE than anyone else, and people who die to bosses or have to practice are bad players.

I'd love to see what your achievements were like if you ever played WOW, because surely you must have been raiding with Method.

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I played every iteration of FFIV, so naturally I am the best Paladin evah.

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Originally Posted by schism

I love how ppl seem to think WoW is some kind of masterpiece. It's as casual as you can get with no difficulty whatsoever. Once again that popular vote will prevail and make the babies happy and possibly another junk mmo release because all ppl want is WoW mechanics. I loved old school FFXI but thats just me I'm not saying I want another FFXI but I have my fingers crossed that they will bring in some new ideas of "their own".

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I love how people think that all of WoW is piece of baby cake.

I remember numerous fights more difficult then both FFXIV and FFXI (minus Absolute Virtue/Pandemonium Warden - 18 hour boss fight is crazy lol)

Then someone will say "but items are way harder to get in FF "blah"" and I will say yeah but in WoW you are constantly updating your set because blizzard is out dating it.

WoW isnt a 'perfect' masterpiece but it is definitely got a lot of proof of concepts (in terms of financial success it is the masterpiece of MMO's- but gameplay is subjective).

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Originally Posted by schism

It's as casual as you can get with no difficulty whatsoever.

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You have never done 25 man heroic raiding have you?

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Originally Posted by schism

I love how ppl seem to think WoW is some kind of masterpiece. It's as casual as you can get with no difficulty whatsoever. Once again that popular vote will prevail and make the babies happy and possibly another junk mmo release because all ppl want is WoW mechanics. I loved old school FFXI but thats just me I'm not saying I want another FFXI but I have my fingers crossed that they will bring in some new ideas of "their own".

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I love how people on this forum conveniently ignore the fact that WOW had a user-selectable difficulty gradient.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I also love how FFXI players like to lord it over others that they're so much better at PVE than anyone else, and people who die to bosses or have to practice are bad players.

I'd love to see what your achievements were like if you ever played WOW, because surely you must have been raiding with Method.

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Lol Method.

Uh oh! An MMO war. Almost as serious and necessary as a console war.
Better step back before someone's feelings get smudged!

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Uh oh! An MMO war. Almost as serious and necessary as a console war.
Better step back before someone's feelings get smudged!

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I think one of the problems is that we are all stuck playing the game regardless of which direction it turns out SE will take. So realistically, one side is bound to be disappointed and if I had to guess I'd wager it's going to be us older FFXI players. A death penalty isn't a bad thing (to me), but whenever players get it in their mind that something is inconvenient, outdated or pointless they tend to not want it or use it regardless of how it adds to the game to have it implemented.

Seems SE generally is adopting a model similar to games like WoW wherein players want to have an easier road to achievement. Note that I didn't say all difficulty is gone, just the path to success is more....streamlined? Whereas in FFXI you could be working on 10 aspects to your character and only accomplish maybe one of those in a year.

Having played WoW, FFXI and FFXIV I could use anecdotes to describe how PVE in XI was a great deal more taxing than in WoW or XIV but it fostered the community. If XIV is going to take the WoW'ish route, group parties for exp will likely be non-existent again so I hope the raids and quests are good enough to bring us all together.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Uh oh! An MMO war. Almost as serious and necessary as a console war.
Better step back before someone's feelings get smudged!

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This. I could except there would be more MMO war complains in beta forums. =_=

If it does then I probably won't play beta that much and enjoy anything else.

I love how this suddenly turned into a game comparison thread.

As said in one of my later posts last night, and as mentioned in a few other people's recent posts - I can deal with not having an EXP penalty as long as the weakness / death penalty gets buffed somewhat. In 1.x, I didn't care if I died or not, and gear damage isn't even worth mentioning.

Let me correct that for you:

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Originally Posted by PimCarb

This may have been discussed recently; I have not found a post lately though. Why not bring back abandon entirely now and forever the loss of experience with death. I know it REALLY was not a popular attribute to FFXI. It did do some interesting things to game play It harmed gameplay by destroying efforts to progress, wasting everyone's time. People did not tolerate people not performing in parties and made these people suffer for it. People would help you get better Insult you and blame you for wasting their time, make you feel miserable and threaten you and your loved ones. Also that lovely awful delving sound. I know it hurt to loose experience. I would rather not lose experience than paying and pay to fix my gear. It also set FF apart from other games as I do not know of another that had the loss of exp. It is just one of those things I look back on and miss praise the Twelve for its removal.

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lol that edit just reeks of bitterness. I couldn't address it if I wanted to. Anywho, I think it's normal to compare and contrast different MMO's when discussing stuff like this. After all, SE is doing the same thing to create it.

Reminds me of nightmares I used to have in Valkrum dunes when I was a newbie. This is when everyone was slaughtered by mobs that wouldn't despawn when trained to the zone. LOL

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

Reminds me of nightmares I used to have in Valkrum dunes when I was a newbie. This is when everyone was slaughtered by mobs that wouldn't despawn when trained to the zone. LOL

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I had those same nightmares. Especially when I would lfp in the dunes and wasn't even in a party but here comes some gobbie clearly wanting me dead. Anyone who doesn't have some rage against the dunes is lucky.

I don't have any Dunes rage what so ever. I took it as a personal challenge to sucker punch gobbies in the junk for looking my way... then eating the bomb toss with no regrets!

Also, the amount of bitterness against experience point loss is understandable. I, for one, don't wish to see its return either for Vietnam flashbacks of hours and hours of grinding my experience back on black mage, thief and red mage as I was one of the sacrificial lambs in many a situation. That being said, I don't mind the gear repair at all as a substitute. Sure, it takes a bit of change from my piggy bank but any adventurer worth his or her salt has a nice little repair fund for just such occasions ( OR makes friend with crafters who will repair for you, or become a crafter ). I took the being a crafter route, as it saves me a ton of gil and allows me to repair my fellow adventurer's gear if necessary, LS for free, PUG for a nominal donation.

As for the weakness timer thing, I'm not too sure I mind not having to suffer that either. Again, this is coming from my experience with endgame and HNM content in XI but there were times when waiting for that weakness broke a victory or cost a run. Even at your best you got sundered and it could have been avoided if weakness weren't around. For the other side of the river, I can see how having weakness timers can call player skill into question but while you are afflicted you are effectively useless depending on your job. What good is a weak link in a combat situation? Or in the case of magi, in a healing situation, or a nuking situation?

That's just my 2 gil and it's all I'm saying about it.

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Originally Posted by Pseudopsia

Reminds me of nightmares I used to have in Valkrum dunes when I was a newbie. This is when everyone was slaughtered by mobs that wouldn't despawn when trained to the zone. LOL

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Yeah, I think it's silly to be fear death and then run away. If some of them hope that XIV will have forced partying like XI then I don't think it's a good idea because most of causal players can't stand a time sink and a waste of time for nothing. They just don't want to wait for an invite or they can have a right to blame someone for wasting their time. That's why many players don't feel comfortable playing XI anymore. XIV needs do better than that. I found it amazing how someone was complaining about 'difficulty' as causal. Most of causal players don't mind about 'difficulty' as long as they have their time.

So so many lies...

I personally feel the current death penalty is just fine.

- The Raise spell has a long enough cooldown to prevent spamming

- Weakness will hurt you but wont prevent you from re-engaging battle

- Brink of Death will severely penalize your stats, completely nerfing your ability to fight at all

- Cost of repairs are significant enough if you have to repair via NPC. Or you have to invest a significant amount of time in crafting in order to repair your own gear. Not everyone has a pocket-repairer buddy on hand 24/7, especially new players.

Never really had issue with xp penalty I would cap my exp and really never had to worry about delevling because that exp is easily earn back. People naturally don't like penalties placed upon them so their always be resistant to penalties my beef is the repair system im more penaltized for playing the game do I want it taken out no but I'd like to see it abit throttle back on how fast your equipment is damage.

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Originally Posted by odintius

Never really had issue with xp penalty I would cap my exp and really never had to worry about delevling because that exp is easily earn back. People naturally don't like penalties placed upon them so their always be resistant to penalties my beef is the repair system im more penaltized for playing the game do I want it taken out no but I'd like to see it abit throttle back on how fast your equipment is damage.

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Yeah lol, when the game first launched, just the wear and tear durability rate was ungodly awful.

Fortunately they've adjust that since then. For the latter half of the game, the wear and tear durability loss was pretty decent (within normal standards I'd say), but you took a huge hit if you died and had to release, around the ballpark of 20% loss I think? For releasing due to a death or a wipe, that's pretty standard too.

(I wasn't sure if you were referring to the launch-state of repairs or not.)

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Originally Posted by schism

Stop bringing up WoW we all know by now that most of you have a game boner for it. This is Final Fantasy last time I checked. I could care less about what they did good. SE can do way better than Blizzard and has on many games. Diablo 3 failed just as hard maybe harder than ffxiv did at launch.

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Actually I'd say FFXIV release failed harder lol - I knew no one that liked FFXIV. I knew a small handful that liked Diablo 3. I think FFXIV has risen much better though.

Beyond that, Yoshida himself has said that he is looking towards the new games and the past great games and whether you like it or not WoW permanently nailed itself into that great hall.

I'm sure no one here wants a WoW copy with a FF skin but that doesnt mean you cant look at systems that work, and work better, and why- then improve. Not doing that is foolish.

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Originally Posted by schism

Stop bringing up WoW we all know by now that most of you have a game boner for it. This is Final Fantasy last time I checked. I could care less about what they did good. SE can do way better than Blizzard and has on many games. Diablo 3 failed just as hard maybe harder than ffxiv did at launch.

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Forget WoW and Diablo 3, I am a causal player and I want more hard modes. I think if you want to play XIV just for the story then all story missions should be on easy modes just for completing it even if you want better rewards then hard mode it is.

It's just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by schism

Stop bringing up WoW we all know by now that most of you have a game boner for it. This is Final Fantasy last time I checked. I could care less about what they did good. SE can do way better than Blizzard and has on many games. Diablo 3 failed just as hard maybe harder than ffxiv did at launch.

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I really don't like WoW. It wasn't my cup of tea. I played it for a while but couldn't really get myself to keep playing until the real game started (I never made it to end game, which really disqualifies me from saying much about the game at all, but the very fact that I couldn't make it to end game says something by itself).

With all that said, discarding a good idea just because a more popular game did it is just as silly - if not more so - as using a bad idea just because a more popular game used it. While there are a lot of things I do not like about the way WoW played, I can respect a lot of the design decisions, and I think having a conversation about which of those aspects would work for FFXIV will never be a bad thing.