Yuweyawata Field Station is so wrong

No the Souls analogy is just right - there are games that just arent made for you, you CAN however limb through single player stuff as its your problem if you waste 100 hours for stuff that should take you 10. But on Multiplayergames its a different story...

And no i suck at Souls games and plenty others lol But besides maybe the controls id never ask for them to be changed.

You may not want to hear this but, this dungeon is 5 expansions deep. Each expansion takes between 10 and 40 hours. Add the base game to that. You should be good enough to handle a story dungeon after 60 to 240 hours. If not, do what MMOs are good at and talk to your fellow players for help.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

No the Souls analogy is just right - there are games that just arent made for you, you CAN however limb through single player stuff as its your problem if you waste 100 hours for stuff that should take you 10. But on Multiplayergames its a different story...

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Just go and ignore every argument I made and just tell me "no u", I guess? Not that it matters anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sorabaka

Also if you are struggling with dungeon-level mechanics after watching guides, tooltips and paying attention to cast bars, then i'm sorry, but you're just outright stupid, or you didn't even try to understand and learn in the first place.

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Thank you for your input. This is extremely helpful. I am still a little confused because I have a PhD in theoretical cosmology and always assumed I was not stupid. You have given me much the think about.

Just to recap the situation for the new posters, who are clearly very intelligent because they come in here yelling and stamping their feet recommending subscribers quit the game:

FFXIV is an MMO that features a huge range of activities with which players engage.

The PvE in general and dungeons in particular have devolved into a repetitive, dull, DDR routine. Within the player base there is a significant range in ability for dealing with this monotony.

Currently, all players are compelled to complete identical MSQ dungeons, unlike in more enlightened games that recognize skill differences exist, and thus that different players want different things from required content.

There are trivial methods to address this issue that would reduce the current levels of frustration and unhappiness.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

FFXIV is an MMO that features a huge range of activities with which players engage.

The PvE in general and dungeons in particular have devolved into a repetitive, dull, DDR routine. Within the player base there is a significant range in ability for dealing with this monotony.

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Yeah, and that's exactly why you proposing devolving everything less than savage into "press button to win" type of content. Thanks but no. I actually would pay to see someone like you put in, for example, Pharos Sirius dungeon from ARR on patch. Compared to old dungeons, the new ones are incredibly easy.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

There are trivial methods to address this issue that would reduce the current levels of frustration and unhappiness.

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There are no such methods. Again, whatever you proposed about easy mode for dungeon will not work, because nobody would do the normal difficulty for the same rewards. And if they just remove normal difficulty and leave the easy one, we'll have another endwalker situation, where the hardest challenge of any dungeon is to not fall asleep.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The PvE in general and dungeons in particular have devolved into a repetitive, dull, DDR routine.

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This is called a gameplay loop, my dude. And to your surprise, every game has it. You can take even WoW for example. Yeah, new pvp battle zone on the start of the expac is cool and unique, but after a month it becomes a "repetitive, dull, DDR routine' because you do the same dailies, the same weeklies, the same actions for the rewards of this particular expansion.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

more enlightened games that recognize skill differences exist

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Can you name at least one MMO that have an easy mode dungeons and isn't a Korean cash grab at the same time? I sure can't. Not to say that endgame dungeons in these games don't have an easy mode, and also these type of games most of the time have free pvp, which i'm sure definitely not helping people who find FFXIV dungeons too difficult.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

that different players want different things from required content

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Yeah, and out of all MMO games FFXIV probably has the biggest variety of content you can do. Struggle with battle content? You can do gathering/crafting/Gold Saucer/RP/housing/etc. And if you struggle with battle content and still want to do it, they gave you Trusts, which can carry you through anything, as long as you don't feck up the mechanics too much. This is already as easy as it can get.

BUT they probably could add easy mode to Trust system, where you would get Echo similar to what you get in solo instances in MSQ, which gives you several "lives" basically. They actually added this one time with Trusts, for Hydaelyn fight in Endwalker. You could "die" from mechanics 3 or 4 times there. Would this be a good enough solution to your problem? Or you specifically want it for multiplayer part?

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Originally Posted by Sorabaka

BUT they probably could add easy mode to Trust system, where you would get Echo similar to what you get in solo instances in MSQ, which gives you several "lives" basically. They actually added this one time with Trusts, for Hydaelyn fight in Endwalker. You could "die" from mechanics 3 or 4 times there. Would this be a good enough solution to your problem? Or you specifically want it for multiplayer part?

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This is exactly what I suggested.

But thanks for the rant, it was very entertaining. I particularly liked the bit where I turn into someone else.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This is exactly what I suggested.

But thanks for the rant, it was very entertaining. I particularly liked the bit where I turn into someone else.

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i am still waiting for your example how such an easy mode would actually look like, so far no one gave an example.

Will bosses just do no damage? will bosses not do any mechanics? just tank and spank ?
Please explain what an easy mode should look like in your opinion, and why your version of an easy mode would still be not too difficult for some people.
If there is even one player that couldn't beat your version of an easy mode, doesnt that mean it is still too difficult?

So if the situation is that dungeons have become harder for some people and these people don't want to drag other people down in regular DF runs, wouldn't the very simple solution to this problem be to give the player 3 lives per boss in dungeon runs with duty support?

It would already help them out a lot if they didn't immediately die and reset to the start if they do a mechanic wrongly, they can at least identify why they died and grasp how the mechanic works if they can revive from failing at least a few times, because people do learn at different rates, that is a fact of life.

Also extra lives being only in duty support runs wouldn't affect DF runs at all, people who don't want to feel like a burden to others can go through it with friendly AI while people who want faster runs can still go play with people.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

This is exactly what I suggested.

But thanks for the rant, it was very entertaining. I particularly liked the bit where I turn into someone else.

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You're welcome. Next time try to put your ego on the level of lowly humans like us, your majesty, if you don't like when people answer to your godlike takes, which are written as if everybody beneath you, aggressively.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy6677615

If MSQ dungeons are going to be challenging for skilled players and clearable by less-skilled ones, such dungeons need a dual-difficulty option.

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Also, Your Highness, maybe i'm blind, but i can't see where the hell are you specifically mentioning duty support in here. I also remember when someone told you abour Duty Support being easier option and you actively fought that person saying it's not a good alternative for you.

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Originally Posted by Sorabaka

Also, Your Highness, maybe i'm blind, but i can't see where the hell are you specifically mentioning duty support in here. I also remember when someone told you abour Duty Support being easier option and you actively fought that person saying it's not a good alternative for you.

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https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...76#post6674976

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The simplest way to do it, as well as providing a useful test case that would have no impact on queue times, would be to restrict it to Duty Support.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

So if the situation is that dungeons have become harder for some people and these people don't want to drag other people down in regular DF runs, wouldn't the very simple solution to this problem be to give the player 3 lives per boss in dungeon runs with duty support?

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The funny thing is, some Duty Support duties already do some form of this, and no one's complained. Expand it to all duties, and voilà.

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Originally Posted by Sorabaka

You're welcome. Next time try to put your ego on the level of lowly humans like us, your majesty, if you don't like when people answer to your godlike takes, which are written as if everybody beneath you, aggressively.

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You stated that I am "just outright stupid" and you expect politeness in response? I don't think it is my ego that is the problem here.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

So if the situation is that dungeons have become harder for some people and these people don't want to drag other people down in regular DF runs, wouldn't the very simple solution to this problem be to give the player 3 lives per boss in dungeon runs with duty support?

It would already help them out a lot if they didn't immediately die and reset to the start if they do a mechanic wrongly, they can at least identify why they died and grasp how the mechanic works if they can revive from failing at least a few times, because people do learn at different rates, that is a fact of life.

Also extra lives being only in duty support runs wouldn't affect DF runs at all, people who don't want to feel like a burden to others can go through it with friendly AI while people who want faster runs can still go play with people.

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Exactly so.

And to reiterate, the idea was motivated in large part by the constant complaints we hear from these poor souls bored to death with current MSQ combat. It would allow MSQ dungeons to continue to become more challenging for those that desire it.

I imagine some will continue to shriek abuse at the less skilled, but that is their problem, not mine.

reading this thread, i feel like i'm missing something. is there not already an "easy mode" in the form of duty support and trusts? you can just follow the npcs for the most part, and if you do die, nobody will give you a hard time for it. you can take as much time as you need to learn the mechanics. 99% of the mechanics in a dungeon will not even kill you outright as long as your gear is up to date. you can even play warrior or paladin for extra easy mode. i really don't think square enix can or would be willing to make it much easier than that. and at level 100, even if you're playing dps, you have at LEAST one mitigation button. i really just do not see why it needs to be any easier than that. most rpgs get harder as you get stronger and gain better skills and gear. that's what ffxiv is. an rpg.

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Originally Posted by MorticiaFhey

reading this thread, i feel like i'm missing something. is there not already an "easy mode" in the form of duty support and trusts? you can just follow the npcs for the most part, and if you do die, nobody will give you a hard time for it. you can take as much time as you need to learn the mechanics. 99% of the mechanics in a dungeon will not even kill you outright as long as your gear is up to date. you can even play warrior or paladin for extra easy mode. i really don't think square enix can or would be willing to make it much easier than that. and at level 100, even if you're playing dps, you have at LEAST one mitigation button. i really just do not see why it needs to be any easier than that. most rpgs get harder as you get stronger and gain better skills and gear. that's what ffxiv is. an rpg.

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Right, you've skimmed it rather than read it, which is understandable given half of it is people being rude.

With the ever-increasing speed of DDR, the issue is moving fast enough to land on the safe spots. Duty Support does nothing to solve this.

You're quite right playing WAR eases the problem a lot, and it is what I have been recommending to players in my FC.

However, this still leaves the tryhards frustrated because they find MSQ dungeons boring and "brain dead."

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Right, you've skimmed it rather than read it, which is understandable given half of it is people being rude.

With the ever-increasing speed of DDR, the issue is moving fast enough to land on the safe spots. Duty Support does nothing to solve this.

You're quite right playing WAR eases the problem a lot, and it is what I have been recommending to players in my FC.

However, this still leaves the tryhards frustrated because they find MSQ dungeons boring and "brain dead."

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i did read the whole thread though. and my point still stands. the mechanics aren't that fast. you have a lot of leeway when it comes to the telegraphs, especially in this most recent dungeon this patch. and again, most of the aoes just give you a vuln stack or a short bleed which can easily be healed through. once you understand what the telegraph is, you'll realize you have a LOT of time to move to the safe spot. the second boss of the newest dungeon comes to mind specifically. it really cannot get much easier than that.

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Originally Posted by MorticiaFhey

i did read the whole thread though. and my point still stands. the mechanics aren't that fast. you have a lot of leeway when it comes to the telegraphs, especially in this most recent dungeon this patch. and again, most of the aoes just give you a vuln stack or a short bleed which can easily be healed through. once you understand what the telegraph is, you'll realize you have a LOT of time to move to the safe spot. the second boss of the newest dungeon comes to mind specifically. it really cannot get much easier than that.

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Some people are good at DDR, some have the ability to see the world through another's eyes.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Some people are good at DDR, some have the ability to see the world through another's eyes.

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it's hardly ddr if you are able to stand there for a solid 15 seconds before the mechanic actually goes off. dungeons are at a happy medium right now, at level cap especially. you can get carried through with gear, mitigation, npcs, and other players. there is really no reason why at level 100 you should need multiple lives to get through a single fight. it's just a matter of practicing and learning how to read mechanics. ffxiv is as simple an rpg as they come. we don't need an "easy queue" or whatever to make queues take even longer for dps players especially.

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Originally Posted by MorticiaFhey

it's hardly ddr if you are able to stand there for a solid 15 seconds before the mechanic actually goes off. dungeons are at a happy medium right now, at level cap especially. you can get carried through with gear, mitigation, npcs, and other players. there is really no reason why at level 100 you should need multiple lives to get through a single fight. it's just a matter of practicing and learning how to read mechanics. ffxiv is as simple an rpg as they come. we don't need an "easy queue" or whatever to make queues take even longer for dps players especially.

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The fact you find that dungeons are currently at a happy medium tells us nothing beyond the fact they are ideally tuned for your skill level. Definitionally, a happy medium means unhappy players at the poles of the skill spread.

But I'll play along. If we do not need an easy mode, do we need a hard mode to keep the strong players entertained? Because many of them continually whine about the braindead content and the "outright stupidity" of those with whom they must run the dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The fact you find that dungeons are currently at a happy medium tells us nothing beyond the fact they are ideally tuned for your skill level. Definitionally, a happy medium means unhappy players at the poles of the skill spread.

But I'll play along. If we do not need an easy mode, do we need a hard mode to keep the strong players entertained? Because many of them continually whine about the braindead content and the "outright stupidity" of those with whom they must run the dungeons.

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no. would i enjoy a harder mode? sure. but again, you'd be splitting the playerbase. not to mention there is plenty of challenge to be had in keeping alive people who maybe aren't at my skill level, especially when i play healer in dungeons. it is a team game, after all, not a single player rpg. if i wanted to do harder content, i'd go do extremes or savage or ultimates. just like if i wanted easier content, i'd do dungeon trusts. dungeon difficulty is about what i think it should be for story content. like i said, you have plenty of time to react to telegraphs and most bosses have only one or two mechanics that they just repeat. they're easy to learn and if you DO struggle you CAN be carried to the finish line. i simply don't believe the issue here is a dungeon issue. rather it is a player issue on all sides.

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Originally Posted by MorticiaFhey

no. would i enjoy a harder mode? sure. but again, you'd be splitting the playerbase. not to mention there is plenty of challenge to be had in keeping alive people who maybe aren't at my skill level, especially when i play healer in dungeons. it is a team game, after all, not a single player rpg. if i wanted to do harder content, i'd go do extremes or savage or ultimates. just like if i wanted easier content, i'd do dungeon trusts. dungeon difficulty is about what i think it should be for story content. like i said, you have plenty of time to react to telegraphs and most bosses have only one or two mechanics that they just repeat. they're easy to learn and if you DO struggle you CAN be carried to the finish line. i simply don't believe the issue here is a dungeon issue. rather it is a player issue on all sides.

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Okay, I understand that opinion. But it is not the experience of players at each end of the skill spectrum, as shown in this thread.

From a personal point of view, I suspect 8.0 will introduce dungeons that I am simply not willing to attempt, thus I will quit. We have already been warned these dungeons will bring faster mechanics, hence the gutting of BLM.

Yesterday I ran the new MSQ and as soon as I reached Underkeep I switched to Frontline. I'll have a go when I can deck out my WAR in affordable ilvl 740. I'm assuming I'll be able to clear it with NPCs, but I'm far more confident I won't enjoy doing so. And there is no point in paying for a game you no longer enjoy. For me, it is very much a dungeon issue.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Okay, I understand that opinion. But it is not the experience of players at each end of the skill spectrum, as shown in this thread.

From a personal point of view, I suspect 8.0 will introduce dungeons that I am simply not willing to attempt, thus I will quit. We have already been warned these dungeons will bring faster mechanics, hence the gutting of BLM.

Yesterday I ran the new MSQ and as soon as I reached Underkeep I switched to Frontline. I'll have a go when I can deck out my WAR in affordable ilvl 740. I'm assuming I'll be able to clear it with NPCs, but I'm far more confident I won't enjoy doing so. And there is no point in paying for a game you no longer enjoy. For me, it is very much a dungeon issue.

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obviously you're free to spend your time and your money as you wish, but this is exactly what i mean.

you're entirely unwilling to even try the new dungeon and see the boss mechanics i've described. it is very easy, minimal ddr. the attacks are telegraphed very far in advance, and very obviously. this is why i say it's not a dungeon issue, it's a player issue. rather than taking the time to run it when everyone is new and learning the mechanics anyway, you're deciding already that it's simply too hard for you without even knowing what it is. that's why i say it's a player issue, or to be more specific, an attitude issue. you're not willing to be patient with yourself or take the time to take it slow if needed and really read the mechanics. you've simply given up. and this is not uncommon to see in "lower skilled" players so to speak. but on the opposite end of the spectrum you have players who learn it quickly and get impatient with people who need more time to figure it out, which doesn't help anyone.

ffxiv is a team game, plain and simple. being unwilling to be patient or show grace or try has gotten you into this mindset that the dungeon is too hard and not that you're simply viewing it so negatively that you're psyching yourself out entirely. there are plenty of people who play the bare minimum amount of hours and get through dungeons just fine because they are willing and happy to try and listen to suggestions and be patient with themselves. and again, the people on the opposite end of the spectrum get bored because they expect everyone to play at their level and don't show grace when people are still learning, even if those people are open to advice.

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Originally Posted by MorticiaFhey

obviously you're free to spend your time and your money as you wish, but this is exactly what i mean.

you're entirely unwilling to even try the new dungeon and see the boss mechanics i've described. it is very easy, minimal ddr. the attacks are telegraphed very far in advance, and very obviously. this is why i say it's not a dungeon issue, it's a player issue. rather than taking the time to run it when everyone is new and learning the mechanics anyway, you're deciding already that it's simply too hard for you without even knowing what it is. that's why i say it's a player issue, or to be more specific, an attitude issue. you're not willing to be patient with yourself or take the time to take it slow if needed and really read the mechanics. you've simply given up. and this is not uncommon to see in "lower skilled" players so to speak. but on the opposite end of the spectrum you have players who learn it quickly and get impatient with people who need more time to figure it out, which doesn't help anyone.

ffxiv is a team game, plain and simple. being unwilling to be patient or show grace or try has gotten you into this mindset that the dungeon is too hard and not that you're simply viewing it so negatively that you're psyching yourself out entirely. there are plenty of people who play the bare minimum amount of hours and get through dungeons just fine because they are willing and happy to try and listen to suggestions and be patient with themselves. and again, the people on the opposite end of the spectrum get bored because they expect everyone to play at their level and don't show grace when people are still learning, even if those people are open to advice.

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I have no idea if the dungeon is hard or not. I am quite certain I won't enjoy it at all. If I wait until I'm geared up a bit, that lack of enjoyment will be over quicker.

I reach this conclusion from the fact I've disliked every dungeon from Troia onwards.

If the new one deviates from the usual DDR monotony, then I have a happy surprise coming!

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I have no idea if the dungeon is hard or not. I am quite certain I won't enjoy it at all. If I wait until I'm geared up a bit, that lack of enjoyment will be over quicker.

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Come on man, why don't you just stop whining, do you not realize how pathetic you appear.
If you enjoy the game that little, why are you even still here?
PvP is the biggest joke in FFXIV and if that is all you do ,there are hundred times better PvP games to play, the broken Tab targeting allone makes PvP almost unplayable, especialy in frontlines.

it is a dungeon btw, i rate it 1.5/10 on difficulty, the trial afterwards maybe 2.5/10

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Come on man, why don't you just stop whining, do you not realize how pathetic you appear.
If you enjoy the game that little, why are you even still here?
PvP is the biggest joke in FFXIV and if that is all you do ,there are hundred times better PvP games to play, the broken Tab targeting allone makes PvP almost unplayable, especialy in frontlines.

it is a dungeon btw, i rate it 1.5/10 on difficulty, the trial afterwards maybe 2.5/10

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You should start a guide like Zagat! "Boss went down fine but the shrimp appetizer needed more lemon. Would not eat again."

Apparently you're unfamiliar with PvP targeting macros and techniques. Nobody competent tab targets in Frontline, at least not as a default.

And no, I have no idea how pathetic I appear. Why don't you tell me in your usual charmless, witless style, and maybe we can all enjoy a ten-day break from your insults.

Additional: Morticia gave me false hope. I ran the dungeon. It's pretty much like every other EW/DT, but one of the easiest.

Now. Look at me in my big green eyes and tell me honestly: did you enjoy it?

Just giving my 2 cents on the new 7.2 dungeon and trial:

Imo both the dungeon and trial were too easy and slow. Dawntrail content has trained me to think faster, and this was kind of a step into the opposite direction.
The trial overall felt a bit uninspired, there wasn't really that much new or surprising.

The arcadion raids, however, were a real joy, especially M7. I hope this is the difficulty we will get in Occult Crescent, too.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Additional: Morticia gave me false hope. I ran the dungeon. It's pretty much like every other EW/DT, but one of the easiest.

Now. Look at me in my big green eyes and tell me honestly: did you enjoy it?

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yes, it's easy. you wanted easy. that's the whole point of this thread. if you want something different, you risk it being harder. dungeons are the way that they are because they've simplified them into a formula. i honestly don't think you even know what you want.

i enjoyed the dungeon, quite a lot actually. the music was quite good, and i enjoyed the setting of it, and being patch week i got to enjoy scraping people off the floor more than a few times much to my delight.

but i have to agree with arohk - if you're here complaining about the content so much, then why are you here at all? the devs are updating the older dungeons to mostly follow the same new formula, and they haven't done anything new with dungeons in a long time. it's not going to change, and you're unwilling to try to change your tone and try to be upbeat, so clearly this game just isn't for you anymore. there's nothing wrong with that, but advocating for changes that only seem to be called for by a minority of players seems like an odd way to spend your time on a game that by your posts sounds like you hate.

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Originally Posted by MorticiaFhey

yes, it's easy. you wanted easy. that's the whole point of this thread. if you want something different, you risk it being harder. dungeons are the way that they are because they've simplified them into a formula. i honestly don't think you even know what you want.

i enjoyed the dungeon, quite a lot actually. the music was quite good, and i enjoyed the setting of it, and being patch week i got to enjoy scraping people off the floor more than a few times much to my delight.

but i have to agree with arohk - if you're here complaining about the content so much, then why are you here at all? the devs are updating the older dungeons to mostly follow the same new formula, and they haven't done anything new with dungeons in a long time. it's not going to change, and you're unwilling to try to change your tone and try to be upbeat, so clearly this game just isn't for you anymore. there's nothing wrong with that, but advocating for changes that only seem to be called for by a minority of players seems like an odd way to spend your time on a game that by your posts sounds like you hate.

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The whole point of the thread is to add choice.

I complain in the hope it will make content better. Most of my posts are on the PvP boards. PvP is now demonstrably far more interesting than these formulaic dungeons. If you're satisfied with the status quo, congratulations.

You do realize you're at level 100 right? You must be a super kind of special if you think dungeons difficulty should be equivalent as a level 1 dungeon.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I have no idea if the dungeon is hard or not. I am quite certain I won't enjoy it at all. If I wait until I'm geared up a bit, that lack of enjoyment will be over quicker.

I reach this conclusion from the fact I've disliked every dungeon from Troia onwards.

If the new one deviates from the usual DDR monotony, then I have a happy surprise coming!

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You're now level 100. Expect the dungeons to be difficult after that, not easier.

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Originally Posted by USAFJerrySo

You do realize you're at level 100 right? You must be a super kind of special if you think dungeons difficulty should be equivalent as a level 1 dungeon.

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Yes despite being "outright stupid" I have a vague recollection of leveling all DoW/DoM/DoH/DoL to 100.

It would indeed be a strange position to assume level 1 (no such beast) and level 100 dungeons would have the same difficulty. Which is why I don't.

Give my regards to Wesley.

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Originally Posted by USAFJerrySo

You're now level 100. Expect the dungeons to be difficult after that, not easier.

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Uh huh. The one in 7.2 is considerably easier than several at 90. But in general I'd expect them to become more difficult. Your point?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I imagine some will continue to shriek abuse at the less skilled, but that is their problem, not mine.

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Probably not - because less skilled players such as myself are unlikely to want to contribute at this point.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Probably not - because less skilled players such as myself are unlikely to want to contribute at this point.

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Honestly at this point, a significant reason I'll run dungeons with NPCs is that doing so with players has a decent chance of running into someone truly unpleasant.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

The whole point of the thread is to add choice.

I complain in the hope it will make content better. Most of my posts are on the PvP boards. PvP is now demonstrably far more interesting than these formulaic dungeons. If you're satisfied with the status quo, congratulations.

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i mean, if they are so formulaic, then that should mean that they are easy as can be already because you know what to expect every time. if you want dungeons to be different, then they will be more difficult because it won't be the same thing every time. all the updates the devs have done in these patches are about making the game accessible for everyone. take a look at the black mage changes for example. they've made the job as a whole easier with not having to worry about dropping your thunder procs or astral fire/umbral ice. they've been working on reworking arr dungeons and adding trusts to make those more straightforward for new players, and to remove the pressure of playing with real people. the new expert dungeons all follow the same formula of 2 mob pulls and then a boss. even the boss mechanics themselves are repeated - often only doing one or two real mechanics that you have to figure out. you cannot realistically make things much easier than they are.

if you want them to be different, they will be harder, and then we will end up right back in this discussion that is happening now. if you are already complaining that the mechanics are too hard, how do you think you will react to them trying different ideas in dungeons, realistically speaking? the point of the "ddr" mechanics is that you can read them and react to them as they come, and unlike regular ddr, they are not fast.

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Originally Posted by MorticiaFhey

i mean, if they are so formulaic, then that should mean that they are easy as can be already because you know what to expect every time. if you want dungeons to be different, then they will be more difficult because it won't be the same thing every time. all the updates the devs have done in these patches are about making the game accessible for everyone. take a look at the black mage changes for example. they've made the job as a whole easier with not having to worry about dropping your thunder procs or astral fire/umbral ice...

if you want them to be different, they will be harder, and then we will end up right back in this discussion that is happening now. if you are already complaining that the mechanics are too hard, how do you think you will react to them trying different ideas in dungeons, realistically speaking? the point of the "ddr" mechanics is that you can read them and react to them as they come, and unlike regular ddr, they are not fast.

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I think you have it backwards.

Take a dungeon like the Grand Cosmos. One boss you have to move seed pods around to avoid adds spawning. The second time you have to account for an arena knock-back. This is not particularly difficult, but it involves group coordination (something the "MMOs mean playing in groups" crowd claim to want). The final boss has that lovely quirk of having to use the furniture to remove the fire debuff. And it's not just presented with the debuff dropping off your bar, the furniture gets incinerated. It's delightful.

Instead, most recent dungeons are simply ramping up speed and overlap of dodge mechanics, and we have been told in no uncertain terms this is going to get worse; see the 7.2 patch notes on BLM. Why are they doing this? One can only speculate. It is certainly more in keeping with raids design, and allows those using third-party tools to assess their performance. Dps relative to maximum theoretical dps is easy to measure. How well you worked with your team moving seed pods and coordinating to make sure everyone could remove the fire debuff is not.

We could also move some of the difficulty from bosses to mobs, which have become completely irrelevant, hence perhaps why the chaotic "alliance raid" isn't an AR at all, it is a trial.

What causals/lower-skilled players want is not the issue here. You think a casual who plays BLM because they like the lore and glam gives a toss about it being gutted? They don't worry about the color of their parse. The like throwing fireballs.

It is the fact dungeons are so formulaic that has restricted the only design space devs are willing to use to an increased speed of dodgeball.

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Originally Posted by Mondschnee

Just giving my 2 cents on the new 7.2 dungeon and trial:

Imo both the dungeon and trial were too easy and slow. Dawntrail content has trained me to think faster, and this was kind of a step into the opposite direction.
The trial overall felt a bit uninspired, there wasn't really that much new or surprising.

The arcadion raids, however, were a real joy, especially M7. I hope this is the difficulty we will get in Occult Crescent, too.

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Omg you too....I fell asleep on it and was like your shitting me right....this is the dungeon I waited for. Man dungeon felt like endwalkers level of easy. Not sure if we're losing dungeon difficulty as well. XD

With how much ppl on forum have skill issue. Yes that is a you problem. Get mad if you want I could care less your lvl 100 act like it.

I would not expect much from the devs if it meant scaling back difficulty cause forum spends more time complaining that fights are too hard vs idk putting the effort into learning the said fights.

Oh well XD there still 8.0 to see if the devs learned anything from this but by the track record of the forum that answer is a big old juicy flat af NOPE.

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Originally Posted by Zakuyia

Omg you too....I fell asleep on it and was like your shitting me right....this is the dungeon I waited for. Man dungeon felt like endwalkers level of easy. Not sure if we're losing dungeon difficulty as well. XD

With how much ppl on forum have skill issue. Yes that is a you problem. Get mad if you want I could care less your lvl 100 act like it.

I would not expect much from the devs if it meant scaling back difficulty cause forum spends more time complaining that fights are too hard vs idk putting the effort into learning the said fights.

Oh well XD there still 8.0 to see if the devs learned anything from this but by the track record of the forum that answer is a big old juicy flat af NOPE.

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As someone who is bad at dungeons, the one in 7.2 frankly shocked me. If I can clear it at 710 ilvl going in blind without a single wipe, the tuning must be terrible.

That said, for those of you who understandably want more challenging MSQ dungeons, SE isn't going to drive paying customers from the game. The solution is a dual-track difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Take a dungeon like the Grand Cosmos. One boss you have to move seed pods around to avoid adds spawning. The second time you have to account for an arena knock-back. This is not particularly difficult, but it involves group coordination (something the "MMOs mean playing in groups" crowd claim to want). The final boss has that lovely quirk of having to use the furniture to remove the fire debuff. And it's not just presented with the debuff dropping off your bar, the furniture gets incinerated.

Instead, most recent dungeons are simply ramping up speed and overlap of dodge mechanics, and we have been told in no uncertain terms this is going to get worse

It is the fact dungeons are so formulaic that has restricted the only design space devs are willing to use to an increased speed of dodgeball.

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you're not understanding what i'm saying and how it relates to the original topic, which is exclusively about the difficulty of the dungeons.

you're saying you want more interesting mechanics. i understand that. but you're not understanding that the devs aren't putting those more unique mechanics in the dungeons because then people come into the forum and complain that it's too difficult. so everything gets simplified to what we have now in normal dungeons, which is a very slow very telegraphed ddr, which you yourself even admitted was easy... yet people still complain it's too hard because it's too fast.

so again, this is what you need to understand. if you want more unique mechanics, you have to accept that the dungeons will be more difficult. let's be real, half the healers in duty finder don't even know you can esuna debuffs with a blue bar above them. half the tanks are too scared to pull more than a single pack at max level. half the dps players don't even use their damage buffs. how do you realistically expect things to go if the devs give in and add dungeons with unusual mechanics? read this thread. people don't even like dungeons at the low difficulty they are now. you cannot have a dungeon be both very interesting and very simple. it simply does not work that way. people can't read slow ddr mechanics, but you expect them to be coordinated enough for a group mechanic? half the time in df people try to drop aoes on me because they don't understand basic spreads. if the grand cosmos had come out this patch, people would have been on the forums complaining about the mechanics being hard to read, especially on the first boss with the brooms.

and there is a dual track difficulty already. you have duty finder, or you have trusts.