You pull you tank question.

No player is under any obligation to carry your sweaty ass to a new record time. Being greedy for a low number is still being greedy. I think you just want to normalize this kind of behaviour like some tried to normalize selling non-nightclub venues as commodations to make Gil off of other player's RP.
From Sastasha to Vanguard, my Dungeon experience has always been DPS attack after the tank attacks. And if the tank isn't upfront we wait for them. I can count on one hand when that wasn't the case. Only exception is when the tank and healer died during a pull. Everyone tries to keep the mob at bay until they are back.
Also as a DPS and a Tank I want the mob to be less not more when we hit the wall.

There's a simple non-controversial alternative to this. If you're not the tank, you stay one pixel behind the tank until the first pack of mobs is pulled. Then you hit sprint and move as quickly as you can to one pixel before the activation point of the second set of mobs and hard stop. Roughly 95% of tanks will hit sprint as well and pull both sets. The remaining 5% may tunnel-vision and try to tank a single set, but then you saunter back into their field of vision, look at them curiously, and then head back to just before the activation point of the second set. They'll almost immediately take action without exception. Don't waste time typing.

The limiting factor in any pull is DPS output. It is rare to see a tank die enroute due to a mitigation failure; the cause is usually attrition due to substandard DPS. Full pulls are both safer and more efficient because more defensive and offensive cooldowns will be available on each individual pull. As long as one player on the team is capable of meeting that DPS requirement, then it is safe to proceed. If that person is you, then the decision is yours to make. Your role does not matter in this.

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Originally Posted by NailBach

i don't get the YPYT mentality anyways, if is see a green square or yellow triangle i have to make it red.

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Because it conflicts with their main character syndrome. Tanking dungeons in this game has been completely braindead since Shadowbringers, literally press W, AoE and mitigate, yet some tanks seem to see a DPS tagging a mob before them as some sort of affront to them personally. There is no aggro to manage, and no difficulty in managing pulls at all, it's by far the easiest role in dungeon content. YPYT players get kicked without mercy if I encounter them in DF and get the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

No player is under any obligation to carry your sweaty ass to a new record time.

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They are under an obligation to do their damn job though, which is to hold aggro. Their role is 'tank' not 'puller'. Tanks pulling is simply convention. The only role that should have any say in the size of the pull should be the healer, as they're the only ones who are going to have an easier or harder time depending on pull size, funnily enough, I don't see many healers babyraging about doing big pulls. The tank does the same whether it's 3 or 300 mobs. They press W, AoE and mitigate.

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

Because it conflicts with their main character syndrome. Tanking dungeons in this game has been completely braindead since Shadowbringers,[...]

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Holminster Switch, Dohn Meg and Malika's Well were quite challenging upon release, since the enemies were either rather numerous, had extra attacks between auto-attacks or/and came with some extra mechanics (interrupting the 'watering' of the plants at the first group of Dohn Meg, for instance), so proper mitigation cooldown management was required.

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

They are under an obligation to do their damn job though, which is to hold aggro. Their role is 'tank' not 'puller'.

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I didn't know Kick Streamer is a role too.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

I didn't know Kick Streamer is a role too.

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What on earth are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

What on earth are you talking about?

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Being a nuisance and provoking, then hiding behind someone else again.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Being a nuisance and provoking, then hiding behindf someone else again.

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Oh okay, nothing coherent then

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

What on earth are you talking about?

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I'm going to guess they're mixing this and the xenos thread together.

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Originally Posted by Arrius

Holminster Switch, Dohn Meg and Malika's Well were quite challenging upon release, since the enemies were either rather numerous, had extra attacks between auto-attacks or/and came with some extra mechanics (interrupting the 'watering' of the plants at the first group of Dohn Meg, for instance), so proper mitigation cooldown management was required.

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Aside from the interrupt in dohn Meg, what did the tanks need to actually do differently though? It still boils down to aoe and mitigate, maybe just mitigate a bit heavier than usual. I agree the first two dungeons in particular were more challenging... for the healer

Anyway the whole thing can be turned around on you.
It conflicts with your main character syndrome. Being a DPS is completely braindead for the most part, press W until you're in ot near the mob, and do your AoE (nuking isn't really a thing in FFXIV), yet some DPS get testy when the tank doesn't let them tag a mob before they do, like some sort of affront to them personally.
In other words, pure projection while throwing a tantrum about not having things go your way.
You try to pressure them adhering to you by threatening them with reporting them. Yet at the same time people could argue that you are aiding the enemy or general nuisance behaviour.

If the accusation can be used against you like that, it was probably a shit take to begin with.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Anyway the whole thing can be turned around on you.
It conflicts with your main character syndrome. Being a DPS is completely braindead for the most part, press W until you're in ot near the mob, and do your AoE (nuking isn't really a thing in FFXIV), yet some DPS get testy when the tank doewsn't let them tag a mob before they do, like some sort of affront to them personally.
In other words, pure projection while throwing a tantrum about not having things go your way.
You try to pressure them adhering to you by threatening them with reporting them. Yet at the same time people could argue that you are aiding the enemy or general nuisance behaviour.

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Except only one of us is actively taking steps to kill a party member for wounding their ego.

I also like how you assume I pull ahead of the tanks when I usually don't, I just think tanks who pull YPYT are pathetic.

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

Except only one of us is actively taking steps to kill a party member for wounding their ego.

I also like how you assume I pull ahead of the tanks when I usually don't, I just think tanks who pull YPYT are pathetic.

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I'll be honest I find YPYT a bit too extreme. But I do give them a little scare here and there.
My whole point is about DPS who pull ahead because they can't or won't wait 1 milisecond. Especially if they are doing this deliberately.

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Originally Posted by TBerry

I'll be honest I find YPYT a bit too extreme. But I do give them a little scare here and there.
My whole point is about DPS who pull ahead because they can't or won't wait 1 milisecond. Especially if they are doing this deliberately.

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It's basically a difference in mentality.
A lot of people find dungeon content to be boring so they want to get it done with asap. Pulling ahead does help speed it up so it can be viewed as them being helpful.
Tanks can communicate if they don't want that but YPYT as you said, is way too extreme and def not the answer.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

It's basically a difference in mentality.
A lot of people find dungeon content to be boring so they want to get it done with asap. Pulling ahead does help speed it up so it can be viewed as them being helpful.
Tanks can communicate if they don't want that but YPYT as you said, is way too extreme and def not the answer.

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Nuke 'em while the tank runs ahead, try to thin them out.

... did it really never occur to any of you that the mobs die faster the less HP is left?

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Originally Posted by TBerry

Nuke 'em while the tank runs ahead, try to thin them out.

... did it really never occur to any of you that the mobs die faster the less HP is left?

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You can DPS as the tank is running yes but the time to kill the 2nd group will still be the same if we kill them all together or not.
So no, it doesn't really speed it much if at all. Unless a mob on the first group has way more HP than the other ones anyways.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

You can DPS as the tank is running yes but the time to kill the 2nd group will still be the same if we kill them all together or not.
So no, it doesn't really speed it much if at all. Unless a mob on the first group has way more HP than the other ones anyways.

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Half of the pull will die faster, making incoming damage much lighter, saving the tank/healer resources and letting the healer pump more.

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Half of the pull will die faster, making incoming damage much lighter, saving the tank/healer resources and letting the healer pump more.

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Very true. I was only talking about speed however.

Sorry about the second post. Mobile is dumb and doesn't let me edit.
Healers in most cases can't pump more since most of their heals they use are ogcds.

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Originally Posted by Thurmnmurmn

Sorry about the second post. Mobile is dumb and doesn't let me edit.
Healers in most cases can't pump more since most of their heals they use are ogcds.

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Mobiles do be like that sometimes.
As fior healers, not much experience in that field. Got WHM lvl 38 but that's it.

God I haven't heard this since WoW days. This would be like me refusing to DPS in a pull whenever a tank lost aggro. People need to give it a rest.

that's what I meant with the issue stemming from the middle ages of MMO's ^^
It's an old obsolete mindset that aims only to punish ppl who defy the tanks ego-trip.
Like I already stated, I don't mind who is pulling. It can even be a help sometimes. (especially my healers may pull whenever and whatever they want, though this rarely happens since I'm pulling as much as I can if the party composition seems right)

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Originally Posted by Cortawraith

that's what I meant with the issue stemming from the middle ages of MMO's ^^
It's an old obsolete mindset that aims only to punish ppl who defy the tanks ego-trip.
Like I already stated, I don't mind who is pulling. It can even be a help sometimes. (especially my healers may pull whenever and whatever they want, though this rarely happens since I'm pulling as much as I can if the party composition seems right)

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If you are doing PUG content, the polite thing is to let the tank lead. If you're doing content with players you know the play style of then go ahead and do what they're going to be okay with.

The problem always comes back to the entire "Tank presses the gas, Healer presses the brakes" way the dungeons work. A tank can attempt to pull everything, but if the healer isn't literately right behind them, them they are going to die if they miss one of their mitigations. Meanwhile, the Healer sets the pull size, which is typically "1 or 2" depending on the healer. It's usually easier to pull more with a WHM, because they can fire off Benediction, and Holy, which buys enough time to let the DPS drop their own nukes on it. The other healers can not do this.

The only player that should be pulling the boss is the main tank.

Seems the forum forgot my sub ran out but...

Did all DT dungeons with Trusts, which are intentionally programmed to perform worse than the average player, for the first run. Forced W2W as a NIN and the only wipe I had during trash pulls was because I stood on too many AoEs (too busy blasting). Tried the same with other expansion Trusts or Duty Support and it was no problem. If NPCs can bear with tanking double packs of mobs and healing the damage they deal, players have literally ZERO excuses to not be able to do the same.

I've tanked all dungeons pre-DT, I've healed all dungeons pre-DT. I know enough of each role to say what's plausible to handle and, the reality after years and years of the game is that people is not just unable to do bigger pull, they're blatantly unwilling because of reasons. Maybe they think a wipe will delete their characters, maybe they think the tanks will be oneshot from 100 to 0 because of an invisible tank delete mechanic,... But, unless you're too busy watching a YT video mid-dungeon to use your toolkit or didn't bother getting your job stone or gearing up semi-decently (no, running anything from 80 onwards in Scaevan gear is not OK) you're more than able to handle it and if I have to be rude and force W2W to make you see that, I will in any situation and role I am.

The only courtesy I'll afford to random tanks and healers is an initial suggestion of pulling more mobs, reassuring they'll be able to handle it, and give tips to improve gameplay (not using the basic healing GCDs like Cure1/Bene1/Physics, cycle the mitigations, use AoE dps as healer whenever the tank isn't in immediate risk of dying while you're bereft of healing oGCDs...). But I've done enough roulettes to be tired of appealing to the lowest common denominator. Expecting W2W isn't parsing or rushing. It's basic competence. And anyone who thinks expecting something as basic as that is toxic has no business playing online games that require teaming up. Step up your game. And if you think that's elitist or parsing, go back to the first statement: Trusts CAN handle W2W and they're supposed to perform worse than the average, so not being able to handle that much places you further below the average.

My solution is easy. If I tank and they pull, I take aggro. I don't care about who is pulling. I have a job and I'm doing my job...

YPYT is such a dumb concept. Whenever I'm tanking for a dungeon and I get a dps running ahead to pull aggro, I prefer to have fun with it than complain. I would always type something like "yes, my minion, go forth and fetch my enemies! Bring them to your king!" I typically get a laugh or two. Sometimes the puller gets annoyed and tells me to hurry up and pull instead since I'm the tank. So, I would say "but you're so good at it, little doggy! Now go and do the one thing you're good at and bring me my meat!"

It's more amusing to poke fun at the little things than get offended by them.

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Originally Posted by Ayalu

Dpends in the situation.
If i ask the Healer and the Healer want short pulls i would get angry that they undermine the preference of those that need to handle it.

If nothing got mentioned in before i just take it as a sign to pull more but really...its not the DPS who should decide that its between Tank and Healer.

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Asking healers lmao

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Originally Posted by BokoToloko

Trusts CAN handle W2W and they're supposed to perform worse than the average, so not being able to handle that much places you further below the average.

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Trusts are less squishy than players, and they will never step in an AOE unless you cause them to be knocked into one. You can quite literately, not heal on the trash mobs one pull at a time and the tank will always survive.

It's been true, since at least late 2.x that most tank+healer combinations can deal with two-pulls, but that is still making an assumption that you get a healer who is actually going to heal and not sit there and green DPS. The Trusts and Command missions pretty much do not require you to heal because the Trusts avoid the AOE's, and the defense of the Trusts/command squad is technically steeper to compensate for the player playing DPS rather than Tank or Healer. The Healer AI is pretty broken in trusts because any character that has a heal, will use theirs, not just the healer. Alisae, Alphinaud, Y'shtola and Urianger will all heal the player, regardless of the role they are in, and G'raha will always do healing actions even when not in the healer role.

When you tank with the trusts, you can pretty much ignore that they exist, nothing is going to 1-shot you. When you heal with the trusts, you basically have to second-guess one of the DPS positions, because if you don't move immediately when they move, you're likely going to get hit with a vulnerability stack, which means any additional hit is going to result in restarting the boss fight.

While I don't expect the trusts to be perfect, the trusts are clearly designed to play to the game's intended player behavior, so if you push it with double pulls or wall-to-wall pulls, the AI will try to keep up, but the AI doesn't have player attack combos, they have their own versions of skills that have different potencies from what I've seen.

YPYT is so stupid, just aoe twice and theyre ripped off the dps anyways, who cares, if the melee is smart them using armms length saves me a defensive anyways

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Originally Posted by 4clubbedace

YPYT is so stupid, just aoe twice and theyre ripped off the dps anyways, who cares, if the melee is smart them using armms length saves me a defensive anyways

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No offense but if they were smart they wouldn't be pulling mobs to begin with. The tanks who think this doesn't matter must be the laziest players of all time. If you are doing your job right people should be having to work to actually be in front of you to pull before you do. Do your jobs as the tank and pull the mobs, it just makes everything easier and smoother when the tank pulls. Only in FF14 would a legit group negative behavior be called "ok" because of "tank ego".

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you are doing PUG content, the polite thing is to let the tank lead. If you're doing content with players you know the play style of then go ahead and do what they're going to be okay with.

The problem always comes back to the entire "Tank presses the gas, Healer presses the brakes" way the dungeons work. A tank can attempt to pull everything, but if the healer isn't literately right behind them, them they are going to die if they miss one of their mitigations. Meanwhile, the Healer sets the pull size, which is typically "1 or 2" depending on the healer. It's usually easier to pull more with a WHM, because they can fire off Benediction, and Holy, which buys enough time to let the DPS drop their own nukes on it. The other healers can not do this.

The only player that should be pulling the boss is the main tank.

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This post is a relic from an age where mmorpg had actual mechanics related to trash and aggro - a dps pulling could make it difficult for the tank to estabilish aggro, or difficult for the tank to survive if the impatient dps pulled more than the tank's gear could chew, or pulled a mob with an unique mech that required more attention, or difficult for the group to dps down if the composition was heavily single-target focused.

In XIV mobs only autoattack, they don't crit and they hit like a wet noodle with the only danger being there's a lot of them, "mechs" are small orange puddles you can dodge 3 seconds in advance, every job gets the same aoE capabilities and tanks can estabilish aggro with a single AoE GCD. Nobody takes damage but the tank (ideally) so no reason to why about healer stress either.

This goes for bosses too. If a dps pulls the boss ahead, the first auto will do some mid damage, then the tank can voke it immediately. Typically the boss will do 2 auto then fire off a mech for which aggro doesn't even matter.

The reasons people have a YPYT mentality in XIV: they carried it over from a different game, or they heard it talked about on the internet and thought the concept of griefing their party was cool.

Ultimately this whole conversation is just about how poor job engagement and dungeon encounters are in the game. The reason DPS pull ahead to pull is cause they are bored AF because their jobs require -1braincell to play. Tanks are functionally the same as are healers, so instead of feeling engaged with the content with the game, people are speed running in the attempt to get something better, sadly there is nothing better at the moment. If DPS classes had actual playstyles and mechanics as opposed to just the slimmed down mech they currently had they would be less bored. If combat encounters required everyone to deal with the enemy instead of just spam your 2 aoe moves when we pull a pack people would be less frustrated. It's a tanks job to pull and a dps to damage the enemy. If they brought back CC made packs tougher to fight, brought in some decent mechanics, brought back different play styles. Then we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

If they brought back CC made packs tougher to fight

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Funny you should mention that. There are a decent number of enemies in the new dungeons with big deadly aoes that can be put to sleep. I have confused more than a few players that go running for their lives when, for example, the big turtle stomp winds up and then just stops. Usually also stunnable, but apparently nobody knows how to weave in a Low Blow or Leg Sweep anymore.

Its nothing against TOS. If you got this kind of tank. Just vote dismiss before last boss. Same goes for DPS who are pulling extra pack when Tank is doing single pulls. Just vote kick and get a refill.

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Originally Posted by Rikka_Chu

Its nothing against TOS. If you got this kind of tank. Just vote dismiss before last boss. Same goes for DPS who are pulling extra pack when Tank is doing single pulls. Just vote kick and get a refill.

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It is against the ToS since they are purposely impeding the progress of their party (which is a ToS violation) just to feed their own ego, usually stopping the party from doing anything while they rage. It can also be considered an MPK, which is a form of griefing. That said, yeah, it's faster and easier to just remove them. Maybe eventually, after enough removals, they will understand that they might actually be the problem.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It is against the ToS since they are purposely impeding the progress of their party (which is a ToS violation) just to feed their own ego, usually stopping the party from doing anything while they rage. It can also be considered an MPK, which is a form of griefing. That said, yeah, it's faster and easier to just remove them. Maybe eventually, after enough removals, they will understand that they might actually be the problem.

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The ToS argument is completely flawed as is could be used against a tank letting DPS die who pulls but could also be used against a DPS that wipes the party by pulling. It's a dumb argument, ultimately don't be an ass, it's the tanks job to pull as established by the devs themselves. That being said, speak to people say hey can we take a w2w please, and listen to others, if the healer and tank say they aren't comfy with that, then take your Adderall and chill for a lil bit. Or leave and wait out the timer. No one is the centre of a group, but seeing as as a DPS you cannot do a dungeon without the tank and healer but they can do it without you, I'd check yourself.

Literally who cares? You don't need a tank to complete a dungeon.

If they get fussy, just keep moving. If the entire party gets fussy, don't worry, you'll be vote kicked.

It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by Malthir

The ToS argument is completely flawed as is could be used against a tank letting DPS die who pulls but could also be used against a DPS that wipes the party by pulling. It's a dumb argument, ultimately don't be an ass, it's the tanks job to pull as established by the devs themselves. That being said, speak to people say hey can we take a w2w please, and listen to others, if the healer and tank say they aren't comfy with that, then take your Adderall and chill for a lil bit. Or leave and wait out the timer. No one is the centre of a group, but seeing as as a DPS you cannot do a dungeon without the tank and healer but they can do it without you, I'd check yourself.

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It could not.
If the tanik is hitting buttons and the party wipes: maybe.
If a dps pulls and the tank just refuses to hit the pulled mobs with AoE and refuses to estabilish aggro: it's lethargic play.
Also the devs said in the role description thata tank's job is to get hit and keep enmity, not to let people die for displeasing them.
Although your last comment reeks of main character syndrome so I already know i'm wasting my time replying.

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It is against the ToS since they are purposely impeding the progress of their party (which is a ToS violation) just to feed their own ego, usually stopping the party from doing anything while they rage. It can also be considered an MPK, which is a form of griefing. That said, yeah, it's faster and easier to just remove them. Maybe eventually, after enough removals, they will understand that they might actually be the problem.

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But isn't the dps who forces the group to have their own rhythm, without even asking in the chat beforehand, a problem for the group? I find this whole discussion extremely curious - and before anyone gets on me, yes, I do take aggro back when I tank. You seem to think that tanking is exclusively about going at the pace that suits YOU, without ever thinking for two seconds about :

- Asking in chat (the vast majority of people who pull do so manu militari)
- Thinking that perhaps not everyone in this group wants to go super fast.
- The person who gets in the way of the group's smooth running is the dps who pulls. Not the tank. If there's one implicit rule in all moorpg's that obey the usual trinity, it's that it's up to the tank to pull. That's where the violation lies, nowhere else.

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If they get fussy, just keep moving. If the entire party gets fussy, don't worry, you'll be vote kicked.

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And the same goes for this message. It's pretty crazy to behave as if the three people who are with you are bots, just good enough to get you into a dungeon before being asked to make the run as you wish. If the whole group is unhappy with your pace, then you're told to stick to it because the majority has spoken. A player who forces his pace under these conditions is just a pain in the arse.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to stop referring to the TOS and adopt a minimum of good manners.

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Originally Posted by Merrigan

It's pretty crazy to behave as if the three people who are with you are bots, just good enough to get you into a dungeon before being asked to make the run as you wish. If the whole group is unhappy with your pace, then you're told to stick to it because the majority has spoken. A player who forces his pace under these conditions is just a pain in the arse.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to stop referring to the TOS and adopt a minimum of good manners.

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Don't get too hung up on your idea of politeness.

What's polite in your circles is impolite in others. That's the difference here. There's no 'middle' to meet in, each position is mutually exclusive.

Again, who cares? One of you gets kicked, requeue, that's the end of the story. Have a laugh about some ego-tripping warrior you found.