Even our content creators cannot pretend to like the trashy writings of Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

You linked an 11hr plus stream. What timestamp should we be looking at? Can't sit and scroll atm q.q

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The link should take you to the specific part, but if it's not working it should be 3h 23m 37s

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

You linked an 11hr plus stream. What timestamp should we be looking at? Can't sit and scroll atm q.q

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Reload the page, the timestamp is there, just failed to load for you.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

As far as I recall, they mentioned that from 6.1 onward, the entirety of Dawntrail was penned by young interns. It was a collaborative effort to inject new talent into the team, prepare to pass the torch as the veteran members age, and appeal to a younger audience simultaneously.

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In itself I think the sentiment is not bad. Giving a new generation of game designers a chance to mature into their roles is in itself great but if you do that then really tightknit supervision is even more important. You need to guide them and make sure to catch their (rookie) mistakes, of which there are likely to be more, as fast as possible. It almost looks like they gave their inexperienced staff free reign and didn't conduct any regular quality checks whatsoever. (No idea if it really happened like that of course.)

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Originally Posted by Loggos

In itself I think the sentiment is not bad. Giving a new generation of game designers a chance to mature into their roles is in itself great but if you do that then really tightknit supervision is even more important. You need to guide them and make sure to catch their (rookie) mistakes, of which there are likely to be more, as fast as possible. It almost looks like they gave their inexperienced staff free reign and didn't conduct any regular quality checks whatsoever.

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This. I understand training them with maybe sidequests, and slowly giving them more to do. I already felt a drop in writing quality in the Alliance raids, and the EW patches MSQ - but I still believed that for the actual expansion, things would get better, that more experienced people would be mostly responsible. It seems like there was no supervision at all! They said Ishikawa was in a supervision role, but honestly I don't know if I believe that, or maybe I just have a different idea of what a "supervision" role actually is. It's bizarre to think they would let things be this bad in the final product.

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Originally Posted by A_moth_called_rose

We don't claim TERF apologist zepla

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God I bet you're fun to be around.

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Originally Posted by Loggos

In itself I think the sentiment is not bad. Giving a new generation of game designers a chance to mature into their roles is in itself great but if you do that then really tightknit supervision is even more important. You need to guide them and make sure to catch their (rookie) mistakes, of which there are likely to be more, as fast as possible. It almost looks like they gave their inexperienced staff free reign and didn't conduct any regular quality checks whatsoever. (No idea if it really happened like that of course.)

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It kinda feels like they promoted some of their sidequest/allied society writing team to MSQ, because a lot of the writing was perfectly fine for optional content. We just expect a lot more out of MSQ.

And I definitely agree with your point that better supervision would have improved a ton of things, catch some of the obvious problems everyone has mentioned, and cut back on the repetition.

I'm doing the the 95 MSQ in the fourth zone - the voice acting and voice mixing is absolutely abysmal. It literally feels like they're not even in the cutscene they're speaking in.

I don't know how it's so overt when I've never yet thought this once in 10 years of content and voice acting.

I feel this is only going to get worse and the reviews will not be kind.

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Originally Posted by Bonoki

As far as I recall, they mentioned that from 6.1 onward, the entirety of Dawntrail was penned by young interns. It was a collaborative effort to inject new talent into the team, prepare to pass the torch as the veteran members age, and appeal to a younger audience simultaneously.

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If that is true then they did everything wrong they could.

It's fine to get new people and young workers but you have to work them in.
If thats the case then honestly, this all is not the fault of the writers but of the supervisors. This all screams too much freedom for unexprienced people.
FF14 already had the theory of just being the money printing machine of SE and being not very loved itself (it getting no budget, almost no merchandise and no real recognition in the series itself). Now it really seems like "it sells anyway, do what you want".

The part with the youngr audience is just hilarious. Explains the whole disney theme. An expansion without the more mature stuff like HW is fine in itself but they didn't even do that. Instead we got a story mix of cringe silly shonen and world ending mad AI with a top of "what measure is a nonhuman".
Looks like a cocktail of ideas thrown at the wall and sticking them together with glue while sniffing it.

The awkward voice acting seems like a direction issue to me. Characters using a normal speaking voice when they should be yelling, for example, is 100% not the VA's fault

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

If that is true then they did everything wrong they could.

It's fine to get new people and young workers but you have to work them in.
If thats the case then honestly, this all is not the fault of the writers but of the supervisors. This all screams too much freedom for unexprienced people.
FF14 already had the theory of just being the money printing machine of SE and being not very loved itself (it getting no budget, almost no merchandise and no real recognition in the series itself). Now it really seems like "it sells anyway, do what you want".

The part with the youngr audience is just hilarious. Explains the whole disney theme. An expansion without the more mature stuff like HW is fine in itself but they didn't even do that. Instead we got a story mix of cringe silly shonen and world ending mad AI with a top of "what measure is a nonhuman".
Looks like a cocktail of ideas thrown at the wall and sticking them together with glue while sniffing it.

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The thing is the story has all the shonen tropes, but as far as games go, is too slow to capture the younger audience. I think it was nearly 2-3 hours of play before my first quest to kill something in this expansion. That isn't going to capture the younger audience that often lack attention spans.

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Originally Posted by Creampi

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2194738757?t=3h23m37s


Not even Yoshi's favorite streamer, Preach, can defend Wuk Lamat's VA any longer.

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I just don't believe this is a directing issue as everyone is trying to say, she's just not great.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

If that is true then they did everything wrong they could.

It's fine to get new people and young workers but you have to work them in.
If thats the case then honestly, this all is not the fault of the writers but of the supervisors. This all screams too much freedom for unexprienced people.
FF14 already had the theory of just being the money printing machine of SE and being not very loved itself (it getting no budget, almost no merchandise and no real recognition in the series itself). Now it really seems like "it sells anyway, do what you want".

The part with the youngr audience is just hilarious. Explains the whole disney theme. An expansion without the more mature stuff like HW is fine in itself but they didn't even do that. Instead we got a story mix of cringe silly shonen and world ending mad AI with a top of "what measure is a nonhuman".
Looks like a cocktail of ideas thrown at the wall and sticking them together with glue while sniffing it.

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It's wild to me that a game that is a company's money maker isn't propped up to the fullest since it would be an investment with high returns. Make the most beloved title even more beloved and attractive? More money!
They miss out on so many opportunities to sell us even more stuff that, let's be real, many of us would eat up and spend money on (good for us that they don't do that then I guess).
But they seem to treat it as a car that was solid when you first bought it, has been running for years now and whose age really starts to show, so it needs some serious maintenance. Instead of giving it the thorough overhaul needed to make sure it runs as well again as it did when you first bought it, it almost feels like they just want to see how long the rusty car can go and bring in money before it breaks down.

(Not to always bring up Genshin but it feels eerily similar. The golden goose in which they invest the bare minimum whereas their other, more niche titles get all the fancy stuff that have Genshin players drooling. Can't even get official Genshin merch overseas even though they'd make so much bank.)

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Originally Posted by Loggos

It's wild to me that a game that is a company's money maker isn't propped up to the fullest since it would be an investment with high returns. Make the most beloved title even more beloved and attractive? More money!
They miss out on so many opportunities to sell us even more stuff that, let's be real, many of us would eat up and spend money on (good for us that they don't do that then I guess).
But they seem to treat it as a car that was solid when you first bought it, has been running for years now and whose age really starts to show, so it needs some serious maintenance. Instead of giving it the thorough overhaul needed to make sure it runs as well again as it did when you first bought it, it almost feels like they just want to see how long the rusty car can go and bring in money before it breaks down.

(Not to always bring up Genshin but it feels eerily similar. The golden goose in which they invest the bare minimum whereas their other, more niche titles get all the fancy stuff that have Genshin players drooling. Can't even get official Genshin merch overseas even though they'd make so much bank.)

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Yeah, I don't get it either. This is a game community that - a bit of mount drama aside - is even overall fine with cosmetic microtransactions, and will forgive a lot, and that's the reward for years of building goodwill. To burn that down in such a short time instead of investing more and reaping more, both money and loyalty, is certainly common in game companies these days, but never gets more comprehensible.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

You linked an 11hr plus stream. What timestamp should we be looking at? Can't sit and scroll atm q.q

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It links to 3h23m37s, but depending on what browser/device you open it on it may not automatically load to that point.

So what? They are not authorities of anything, like people in this forum.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

So what? They are not authorities of anything, like people in this forum.

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It’s an indication that there are severe issues given their livelihood as a video maker and status as ff14 media tour person depends on not being in SE’s bad books. You don’t defecate where you eat nor bite the hand that feeds you and other idioms that we all understand.

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Originally Posted by fulminating

It’s an indication that there are severe issues given their livelihood as a video maker and status as ff14 media tour person depends on not being in SE’s bad books. You don’t defecate where you eat nor bite the hand that feeds you and other idioms that we all understand.

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I think Zepla is sponsored by Hoyo so she is not shitting where she eats.

I did watch Sfia play through the MSQ and he wasn't extremely unhappy, but he wasn't overly happy either. He was kind of meh about it.

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Originally Posted by chizLemons

This. I understand training them with maybe sidequests, and slowly giving them more to do. I already felt a drop in writing quality in the Alliance raids, and the EW patches MSQ - but I still believed that for the actual expansion, things would get better, that more experienced people would be mostly responsible. It seems like there was no supervision at all! They said Ishikawa was in a supervision role, but honestly I don't know if I believe that, or maybe I just have a different idea of what a "supervision" role actually is. It's bizarre to think they would let things be this bad in the final product.

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The main writter already did a bunch of sidequest, including the Dark knight job quest chains. I think the issues is that maybe they ain't used to do long story like the MSQ is.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

So what? They are not authorities of anything, like people in this forum.

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On the contrary, I am an authority on what I like. In the case of DT, in contrast of every expansion so far, I would say that the quality of writing is abysmal.

My expectations given the LL were that we were going "on vacation"- fine, we wouldn't get the drama of say- a HW. However, this expansion lacks the drama from a significant length- it's a dull slog- it doesn't even have humour- it's just- nothing. It's vapid, the characters repeat the same things so often, and in such a simplistic, dull way that I don't even care about them, worse- they annoy me, with the rare exception. This is from someone who was was perfectly happy, mind you with going through ARR prior to its trim- it's not the length of the questline- it's the unnecessary and boring bloat.

As at least one person has said, an experienced supervisor or editor could likely have advised a more junior editor and the end product would have been the better for it.

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Originally Posted by Magikazam

The main writter already did a bunch of sidequest, including the Dark knight job quest chains. I think the issues is that maybe they ain't used to do long story like the MSQ is.

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Ishikawa did the dark knight quest chains, not the current MSQ writer. The current one did The Sorrow of Werlyt Quests, Pandemonium, the EW patch quests and others. I agree though that they may not be used to writing long stories and that may be part of why this MSQ falls flat so often.

Many internet personalities do use controversial or popular opinions to gain attention and followers. It's important to remember that their opinions don't necessarily reflect the majority view, or even their own personal opinions. People often discuss what these personalities say because they have a significant influence on their followers and can spark widespread conversations. However, it's always good to take their statements with a grain of salt and form your own opinions, free from any outside influence and with an open mind.
I think Dawntrail has been good so far. A couple minor things I'm not keen about, but that is of little import. They've done a good job. If anybody is bored by it, it's not the expansion that's boring, it's the game design itself. These same exact scenarios and patterns have been recurring for ten years and counting. Everyone said "we want more voiced scenes" and when Squenix delivers "there's too many scenes this is boring boohoo".

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Originally Posted by 1313

Many internet personalities do use controversial or popular opinions to gain attention and followers. It's important to remember that their opinions don't necessarily reflect the majority view, or even their own personal opinions. People often discuss what these personalities say because they have a significant influence on their followers and can spark widespread conversations. However, it's always good to take their statements with a grain of salt and form your own opinions, free from any outside influence and with an open mind.

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Preach does appear to be one of the more balanced streamer out there and doesn't exactly rely on drama for either entertainment or popularity, he also opted to play through every single final fantasy sans side games and 11 to get a better overview of the entire series history so he's one of those who's opinions are more reasonable. Ofc he like everyone have their biases but i haven't seen him let such biases negatively affect his overall opinion.

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Originally Posted by 1313

Many internet personalities do use controversial or popular opinions to gain attention and followers. It's important to remember that their opinions don't necessarily reflect the majority view, or even their own personal opinions. People often discuss what these personalities say because they have a significant influence on their followers and can spark widespread conversations. However, it's always good to take their statements with a grain of salt and form your own opinions, free from any outside influence and with an open mind.
I think Dawntrail has been good so far. A couple minor things I'm not keen about, but that is of little import. They've done a good job. If anybody is bored by it, it's not the expansion that's boring, it's the game design itself. These same exact scenarios and patterns have been recurring for ten years and counting. Everyone said "we want more voiced scenes" and when Squenix delivers "there's too many scenes this is boring boohoo".

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While that may apply to some people, out of the (I don't know, million plus players?), it doesn't apply to those of us who are fed up with the repetitive, simplistic and childish writing (I believe in peace, I want people to happy, I couldn't do this without you, talk to so-and-so for me)- fine I get it already!!!

No, they have not "done a good job" in my eyes, although I do very much recognize that technically they worked on a graphical update and worked to deliver on login queues - some fundamental elements were of very poor quality in my eyes, and that hasn't been typical of their past expansions.

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Originally Posted by 1313

If anybody is bored by it, it's not the expansion that's boring, it's the game design itself. These same exact scenarios and patterns have been recurring for ten years and counting. Everyone said "we want more voiced scenes" and when Squenix delivers "there's too many scenes this is boring boohoo".

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That's not true at all.

If the story is compelling then great, I welcome all the voiced cut scenes and whatever else they want to throw our way.

The 'scenarios and patterns' are different here in a few fundamental ways:

1) The overall writing and character writing is very bad
2) The story is generally boring
3) There's a ton of fluff padding the stories run time
4) We are not the driving factor in the scenario moving the story forward

Note that point 4 is not saying it's because we aren't "the main character" it's that we are not the one making events occur to move the plot forward; so it feels like we're just background dressing for the characters which are moving the plot forward.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Hot take but DT is absolute crap compared to say, the Fontaine arc in Genshin. Both games have the same exposition problem. But Genshin is undeniable more cohesive and satisfying as far as the storytelling.

And that even goes for their minor quests or equivalent "post patch" stories. Some it really hits in ways XIV's voiceless bland secondary characters could only dream of. And in a fraction of the time.

Being sponsored by Hoyo, at least right now, is probably very convenient.

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To be honest.
Genshins story itself is great. The storytelling though is kinda bad and the MC is more sidelined in the overall story then we in DT.
Fontaine had a great stoy (the whale boss is trash though) and the Varshey (I can't spell his name) was extremely dark.
What Fontaine did good and what DT could learn from it though is how to write a character.
Furina and Neuvilette were extremely good written. So much that Furina became an fan favourite (I even have a keychain of her).
The characters in Genshin are also just tropes but they work in their own world and are used in it. Wuk Lamat is the prime example of how to not write a main character.

i would also like to throw Nasu and FGO in the ring.
With the lostbelts he wrote masterpieces.

Maybe it's still my dissapointment with Dawntrail but I think the writers of FF14 should look around and learn again.
It was what made ff14's story so great in the first place. I know they can do it but they got kinda too comfortable with time.

Funfact:
Did you know I have a store two streets away from me that sells Genshin merchandise. They have many stuff but not a single thing from ff14...

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Seeing how it's largely the political aspect of the story that's missing and has been missing for the last two expansions. They need a writer educated in history to make the main story frame again, since they tend to a much better view of the greater picture and how to connect the dots. Now we just got the characters without any actual connections to the world as a whole.

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Agreed. The political stuff was always interesting be it Uldah or Ishgard.
They really need to do research again.
My inner hope is that the mixed DT reception across the board will be a wake up call for the story. They already had one for the gameplay and at least here it seems that DT learns from past mistakes.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

Maybe it's still my dissapointment with Dawntrail but I think the writers of FF14 should look around and learn again.
It was what made ff14's story so great in the first place. I know they can do it but they got kinda too comfortable with time.

Funfact:
Did you know I have a store two streets away from me that sells Genshin merchandise. They have many stuff but not a single thing from ff14...

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Seeing how it's largely the political aspect of the story that's missing and has been missing for the last two expansions. They need a writer educated in history to make the main story frame again, since they tend to a much better view of the greater picture and how to connect the dots. Now we just got the characters without any actual connections to the world as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Fiel_Tana

Ishikawa did the dark knight quest chains, not the current MSQ writer. The current one did The Sorrow of Werlyt Quests, Pandemonium, the EW patch quests and others. I agree though that they may not be used to writing long stories and that may be part of why this MSQ falls flat so often.

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Speaking of which, Werlyt also had a huge issue with unearned redemption for Gaius where the writer just retconned with abandon to make all his past actions actually be morally just rather than properly deal with the more interesting moral grayness.

Between Gaius, Zero and Wuk Lamat, he clearly has a huge flaw as a writer with tunnel-visioning on a single character and twisting the rest of the narrative around them.

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Originally Posted by Lurea

Natsuko Ishikawa is a woman. You don't seem to know much about her—so maybe stick to what you do know. Or hey, do some research! She's a sweetheart and extremely talented.

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They are commenting on the current Dawntrail writer, who also wrote Werlyt and the other arcs mentioned, not Ishikawa.

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Originally Posted by Lurea

Natsuko Ishikawa is a woman. You don't seem to know much about her—so maybe stick to what you do know. Or hey, do some research! She's a sweetheart and extremely talented.

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Natsuko Ishikawa is a very talented woman indeed. However, the post you are responding to is talking about Daichi Hiroi, a man, and one whose reputation is not nearly so stellar.

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Originally Posted by Lurea

Natsuko Ishikawa is a woman. You don't seem to know much about her—so maybe stick to what you do know. Or hey, do some research! She's a sweetheart and extremely talented.

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No need to be snide. Especially when I seem know which parts of FF14 Ishikawa wrote better than you do.

EDIT: I mean, not to rub it in when you clearly completely misread the post you were responding to. And the one before it. But going right for a personal attack to white knight a writer I wasn't even talking about makes this a bit funny.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

No need to be snide. Especially when I seem know which parts of FF14 Ishikawa wrote better than you do.

EDIT: I mean, not to rub it in when you clearly completely misread the post you were responding to. And the one before it. But going right for a personal attack to white knight a writer I wasn't even talking about makes this a bit funny.

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Yeah, definitely hit reply to that one a little quick. In my confusion, can ya blame me for wanting to defend Ishikawa? xD

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

To be honest.
Genshins story itself is great. The storytelling though is kinda bad and the MC is more sidelined in the overall story then we in DT.
Fontaine had a great stoy (the whale boss is trash though) and the Varshey (I can't spell his name) was extremely dark.
What Fontaine did good and what DT could learn from it though is how to write a character.
Furina and Neuvilette were extremely good written. So much that Furina became an fan favourite (I even have a keychain of her).
The characters in Genshin are also just tropes but they work in their own world and are used in it. Wuk Lamat is the prime example of how to not write a main character.

i would also like to throw Nasu and FGO in the ring.
With the lostbelts he wrote masterpieces.

Maybe it's still my dissapointment with Dawntrail but I think the writers of FF14 should look around and learn again.
It was what made ff14's story so great in the first place. I know they can do it but they got kinda too comfortable with time.

Funfact:
Did you know I have a store two streets away from me that sells Genshin merchandise. They have many stuff but not a single thing from ff14...


Agreed. The political stuff was always interesting be it Uldah or Ishgard.
They really need to do research again.
My inner hope is that the mixed DT reception across the board will be a wake up call for the story. They already had one for the gameplay and at least here it seems that DT learns from past mistakes.

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Yeah I'll be heading back to Mihoyo games after being done with most DT stuff and ending my sub. Fontaine, Sumeru, Belobog, Penacony are all amazing story arcs (and FULLY voiced in multiple languages too!)

When someone not of Ishikawa's caliber head the story, Mihoyo does story and writing and everything way better than whatever Square Enix can come up with

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Originally Posted by GrizzlyTank

Seeing how it's largely the political aspect of the story that's missing and has been missing for the last two expansions. They need a writer educated in history to make the main story frame again, since they tend to a much better view of the greater picture and how to connect the dots. Now we just got the characters without any actual connections to the world as a whole.

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True, it wasn't the dragons or the swordfighting that made Game of Thrones interesting, and it wasn't a lack of these things that made the last three seasons dog. It had stakes and consequences, and then it didn't anymore. Can't have a good story if the conclusion is already foregone. They should let the baddies win once in a while to show that it's actually a close race.

I don't follow ff14 streamers at all, so I can't say if she's truly just ragebait or not.
However
I do know that even ff14 discord has mixed reaction towards DT, and that place is super toxic positive. If you say anything negative or controversial about the story there, prepare to be dogpiled and lynched.

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Originally Posted by Dillon0_o

what is a TERF?

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TERF is a trans-exclusionary radical feminist: an advocate of radical feminism who does not believe that transgender people's gender identities are legitimate, and who is hostile to the inclusion of trans women in the feminist movement.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Between Gaius, Zero and Wuk Lamat, he clearly has a huge flaw as a writer with tunnel-visioning on a single character and twisting the rest of the narrative around them.

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This is a super common problem with amateur writers, they invent their character first before the story's idea, become obsessed with the character and then instead of being aware of how that character might function within the web of the world and personal relationships around it they take the reverse approach and build the world outwards from that character.

This results in a character who never has to interact with the world because the world is a purpose built skin-tight suit around them.

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Originally Posted by A_moth_called_rose

We don't claim TERF apologist zepla

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Really classy to edit an upvoted message to now include this garbage.

Please grow up.

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Originally Posted by A_moth_called_rose

We don't claim TERF apologist zepla

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Wow, nice edit. Must feel real good creating the illusion that people agree with your weird takes.

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Originally Posted by Lurea

TERF is a trans-exclusionary radical feminist: an advocate of radical feminism who does not believe that transgender people's gender identities are legitimate, and who is hostile to the inclusion of trans women in the feminist movement.

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literally has nothing to do with wuk lamat or CCs criticizing the story

some people (not you, the hrothgar) really want to just drag in culture war BS everywhere

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Speaking of which, Werlyt also had a huge issue with unearned redemption for Gaius where the writer just retconned with abandon to make all his past actions actually be morally just rather than properly deal with the more interesting moral grayness.

Between Gaius, Zero and Wuk Lamat, he clearly has a huge flaw as a writer with tunnel-visioning on a single character and twisting the rest of the narrative around them.

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TBH the issue about Gaius IMO is that his personality is all over the place, all the time, it not just a Werlyt issue. He sound way more like a resonable being in 1.0, then he just turn into a bland and basic villain in 2.0. I still facepalm whenever I do Prae and he roll a nat 1 on persuasion when trying to make Cid change side.