So does every hate new PLD now?

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Okay but the design has been in the game for years and every tank has the same thing where they spam lmao but you take issue with Atonement? Uhm okay then?

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No other tank attack is spammed THAT much. Go ahead and tell me what other tank has you press the same attack button 3 times in a row after every single combo.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

No other tank attack is spammed THAT much. Go ahead and tell me what other tank has you press the same attack button 3 times in a row after every single combo.

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I mean, bloodspiller spam is three times in a row, used to be 5 or more in ShB, fell cleave is three times in a row also used to be 5 or more in ShB, gnashing combo is same button spammed in a row, every tank spams buttons in consecutive order, Confiteor and Blades combo is spammed also... and you definitely exaggerate how much it's spammed I'll be completely honest, and while it has lost the bulk of it's optimisation value from when it was first added, it still allows for a certain degree of flexibility to time HS usages for disengagements, or after downtime can be used as a buffer if any stacks remain to help realign with raid buffs. Definitely more pros to the ability than cons I'll be honest.

Aside from 3 times in a row though, aren't PLD using Atonement 8 times per minute? That's...a lot of the same attack.
The Gnashing Fang "combo" is the same button now, but GNB is only pushing it 6 times per minute, they get to pop Continuation after each use, the potency escalates, and each attack has a unique animation.
Bloodspiller spam only happens once a minute - same with Fell Cleave - as part of the 1m burst that spam correlates with PLD's bladeworks spam - Atonement spam is above and beyond.

imo bladeworks feels fine - hits hard (feels impactful), unique animations per use (isn't visually redundant), and you only use it 4 times a minute.
imo BLM Fire IV spam feels fine too even though doesn't have unique animations and is part of the normal rotation as well just because it hits hard - it's something you WANT to spam.
Atonement doesn't hit hard, is visually redundant, and you use it 8 times a minute - almost as much BLMs spam Fire IV.

I don't mind hitting the same button 3 times in a row as long as it feels good to use, but Atonement doesn't - it needs some animation treatment and/or a potency motive imo.

Nope, still hate the new PLD 6 months later.

On the contrary, I don't really hate or love PLD in particular. Its usability/accessibility is especially good given the stringent oGCD bloat of DRK/GNB, though WAR fills this void particularly well.

If anything, I think they need to think carefully with how they handle PLD next expansion. Main reason being how screwed up things were with Fight Design this expansion as well as PLD's kit conflicting with the "meta" 2m Burst Window they perceived. All of that could've simply been avoided if they took more time in the RnD department to hammer out fight inconsistencies using the weakest and strongest compositions in the game to see if it can be done.

I actually really like it. I like that I don’t have to rely on anyone for Divine veil, have Bulwark back is nice, getting to use Holy Spirit and Holy Circle more frequently is super nice, and the rotation itself just feels a bit “faster” if that makes sense. That being said there’s still a bit to be improved on I.e. Goring Blade, Atonement, Cover and Shield Bash mainly.

Goring Blade should be a ranged magic attack like Holy Spirit and the two should combo together. I think having a 5-part combo would serve us a lot better then having a 1 min GCD.

Atonement should be a 2 stack oGCD. I would honestly like it if this was made a ranged magic skill too, really lean into that PLD ranged uptime. Just making the skill an oGCD would be enough for now though.

Cover and Shield Bash should just be merged with Intervention. If you dash to an enemy it should stun them and if you dash to an ally it should apply cover.

I think the above would make it better. The changes are good overall, they just need to improve it now.

It's still really mixed, I would say I'm surprised there wasn't a lot of changes for 6.4 considering it's design feeling off and the amount of buttons the job has, but I'm not really.
I guess the recent atonement changes were decent, again I loved the defensive changes personally they weren't perfect but a good step in the right direction

I think if I was going to Design Paladin for 7.0 I'd make some changes such as:
1. Making Goring blade actually have a reason to be apart of the kit (not Ogcd, it really doesn't "fix" the issue with it being a bloat ability)
2. Change up how many times you're pressing atonement, right now it feels unfun to just spam that ability.
3. Do more with PLD's "utility" skills such as making Clemency a OCGD MP management skill, Such giving more use cases to Cover and just in general buffing its utility, make shield bash a Cone OCGD that replaces damage on PLD's gap closer while stunning in a aoe cone, Let plds gap closer do no damage and charge to party members too.

I'm Fine with hallowed ground being the longest Invul and PLD having lowest DPS, but give PLD some significant upsides and make sure it isn't behind so much.

I still hate the loss of rotational Goring Blade, but mostly like the rest of the changes.


Ideally, I would have preferred to replace the Divine Might procs with Clemency, Holy Shock, and Holy Circle having variable --based on %MP-- potency, cast times (0 seconds at full MP), and MP costs (e.g., 1k to 4k), with Req making them free-casts that count as if casted from 100% MP.

Perhaps also have Fight or Flight grant 3 stacks of Sword Oath if it'd accelerate and smooth out the rotation sufficiently, but I think the main thing would just be to be okay with occasionally clipping our DoT some and not to (effectively) require the 4 Holy Shock casts before the Confiteor Combo.

Heck, I'd have been fine with BoV and GB being able to afflict a target simultaneously, if it came down to it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I still hate the loss of rotational Goring Blade, but mostly like the rest of the changes.


Ideally, I would have preferred to replace the Divine Might procs with Clemency, Holy Shock, and Holy Circle having variable --based on %MP-- potency, cast times (0 seconds at full MP), and MP costs (e.g., 1k to 4k), with Req making them free-casts that count as if casted from 100% MP.

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I feel like the magic healing on Paladin is kind of ugh, theirs so much of it and the sustain is really strong but at the same time it feels useless when you don't need it and out of your hands, Removing Pld's self healing from magic and reducing/changing Shelltrons sustain up for more controlled sustain on Something like Clemency (that's also ocgd) would be really nice for MT/OT PLD.

Right now (In terms of "healing") it feels like PLD's more selfish then warrior? with it's healing which is kind of weird.. Not to say paladin lacks group/target healing I just think the Self sustain could be toned down alot for targetable sustain such as getting a free clemency here and there every minute, Warrior should also stop having teammate healing personally, also reduce its aoe sustain capabilities even if that's not important for savage ect. Healers shouldn't expect to afk because they got funny infinite self healing axe tank.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Right now (In terms of "healing") it feels like PLD's more selfish then warrior? with it's healing which is kind of weird.. Not to say paladin lacks group/target healing I just think the Self sustain could be toned down alot for targetable sustain such as getting a free clemency here and there every minute, Warrior should also stop having teammate healing personally, also reduce its aoe sustain capabilities even if that's not important for savage ect. Healers shouldn't expect to afk because they got funny infinite self healing axe tank.

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Aye. I'd always thought Warrior's self-healing should be more akin to just its party-support in XI -- as a sort of strikeleader / warleader / bannerlord. Instead it's just had this insane amount of single-target ally-targetable healing available to it for the last couple expansions...

(Copying over that one post from the other thread real quick.)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I'd like to rein back any and all forms of sustain that neither come at cost nor have any real means of optimization to them (beyond AoEing where you might otherwise ST in 2-target scenarios, in BW/NF's case):

Warrior

• Undo the lastest potency buffs to Storm's Eye, Storm's Path, and Inner Chaos.
• Inner Beast is now granted at level 30, and Thrill of Battle instead at 35.
• Further nerf Storm's Path and Storm's Eye potency by 20 prior to Melee Mastery. Siphon that potency per minute into Inner Beast (e.g., to 440 potency, up from 330). (Fell Cleave was already buffed, so it can remain as is.) Buff Steel Cyclone to 220 potency.
• Axe the self-heal on Storm's Path. Have Inner Beast instead heal for 440 cure potency and Steel Cyclone hit for 110 potency per target. Fell Cleave and Decimate retain, but do not increase, these bonuses.
• Return the per-hit flat self-healing component of BW/NF to, again, healing for 50% of damage dealt. Let it rip on Fell Cleave + Primal Rush + Inner Chaos x2, but simply comboing should hardly do squat.

Paladin

• Shelltron replaced by Aegis, which grants a barrier equal to 10% of the target's maximum HP and grants 25% mitigation while the barrier is active (and lingering for 1 second thereafter).
• Aegis is now granted at level 30, and Spirit's Within at 35.
• The level 62 skill, Intervention, is now instead simply a trait that allows Aegis to be used on others and causes it to last up to 2 second longer for each defensive ability you have active.
• Clemency is now granted at level 40. Prominence is instead a class skill, granted automatically. Chivalry has been moved to level 40.
• At level 58, Paladin now instead augments Aegis with two additional effects: "Grants MP upon fully absorbing an enemy hit" and "Grants Silver Shield | Silver Shield: Your next use of Clemency will not trigger the global recast time."
• Shelltron Mastery, now Aegis Mastery, upgrades Aegis to Divine Aegis, which causes a second barrier to take the first's place when broken, and extends the maximum duration to 8 seconds.
• Cover no longer consumes gauge by default and now grants an aura to the covered ally that mimics the total multiplicative mitigation of the Paladin's active defensive skills. (This leaves a buff also on the Paladin itself, which causes the transferred mitigation to updates whenever there is a change to the Paladin's defenses.)
• Cover now also grants the Paladin a stack of Oath of the Ceaseless Guardian. This allows the use of Guardian while Cover is on cooldown, swapping the hotkey's use automatically. Guardian is otherwise identical to Cover but has no cooldown and instead costs 50 Gauge and a charge of Oath of the Ceaseless Guardian. Stacks last for 2 minutes.
• Divine Magic Mastery II removed.
• Blade of Faith, Blade of Truth, and Blade of Valor no longer cost MP (since that would otherwise reduce one's cure potency available per minute).

Dark Knight

• Bloodspiller swaps places with Salted Earth, therefore being introduced much earlier in the game.
• Abyssal Drain swaps places with Dark Mind, therefore being introduced much earlier in the game.
• Bloodspiller now heals for its damage dealt, but Souleater no longer heals.
• Bloodspiller now deals 40% of its damage to all enemies in a 3-yalm radius around its target.
• Quietus now deals 50% greater potency to its first target struck (300 to first target, 200 to all others).
• Quietus now inflicts its victims with Quietus for 12 seconds, causing them to grant the Dark Knight 100 MP each time they are struck by an attack from the Dark Knight.
• Carve and Spit now inflicts its victims with Carved Soul for 12 seconds, causing them to grant the Dark Knight 100 MP each time they are struck by an attack and causing them to leave a shade instantly and another if killed while afflicted by Carved Soul. The Dark Knight can move through these to gain 10% HP and 10% MP.
• Abyssal Drain now inflicts a debuff for 10 seconds that causes the Dark Knight to heal for 25% of damage dealt to enemies and to instantly restore 10% of the Dark Knight's HP if the victim dies while under the effect of Abyssal Drain.
• Dark Arts has been revised. It now nullifies a granular amount of MP cost and is simply displayed on your MP bar alike to a barrier effect (on the HP bar).
• At level 30, Dark Knight gains access to Shadowskin, which consumes up to 1500 to 3000 MP (using half your current MP, therefore reaching full effect at 60% MP) to reduce incoming damage by 20% for 3 to 6 seconds, based on MP spent. For every % of max HP's worth of damage nullified gain 1% max MP's worth of Dark Arts, to a maximum of the original amount of MP spent.
• The Blackest Night is now an upgrade to Shadowskin, retaining the 20% mitigation effect (though the duration can no longer fade before the barrier does), and now consumes 1500 to 3000 MP (using half your current MP) in order to generate a barrier of %HP equal to 80% of %MP spent (3000 MP = 30% of MP = 30% eHP). For every % of max HP's worth of damage nullified gain 1% max MP's worth of Dark Arts, to a maximum of the original amount of MP spent.
• Delirium no longer grants free casts of Bloodspiller or Quietus. Instead, for 12 seconds, it increases Attack Speed by 15% and doubles MP and HP generated while halving the Blood costs of Bloodspiller and Quietus.
• Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain each gain a second charge and have their cooldown reduced to 40 seconds at level 84.
• Dark Mind now reduces all damage taken by 10% (and magic damage taken by a further 10%).
• Oblation is now an upgrade to Dark Mind, allowing it to be used on any ally, with a second charge and only a 40-second recast time.
• Carve and Spit, Abyssal Drain, and Shadowbringer now each cost 3k MP. They have been slightly buffed in compensation; the remainder of the lost potency is covered only via DRK's additional MP generation.
• Living Shadow now grants a temporary charge each of Abyssal Drain, Carve and Spit, and Shadowbringer, to be used via the Living Shadow. These temporary charges take priority over your own, have no animation lock / uptime cost, and cost no MP, though they will have only half the normal damage. If not consumed before Living Shadow ends, they will each be rapidly cast in succession when 1 second of duration remains. While Living Shadow is active, it will also duplicate each of your attacks, for half damage. It is now summoned far more quickly/responsively.

Gunbreaker

• Rather than Brutal Shell granting a barrier, Burst Strike and Fated Circle now afflicts its target with a suppression effect, causing its auto-attack damage to be reduced by the lesser of 50% until having consumed damage equal to that dealt by Burst Strike / Fated Circle. This effect does not stack or accumulate.
• Continuation and Hypervelocity inflict an identical effect to that of Burst Strike, but accumulating. This stacks with the effect of Burst Strike.
• Heart of Corundom is no longer an upgrade to Heart of Stone, but rather a secondary action. Heart of Stone Mastery upgrades the mitigation of Heart of Stone directly, while Heart of Corundom, which replaces HoS while HoS is active and on cooldown, causes the beneficiary to heal for their damage mitigated by HoS over the last 3 seconds. (In this way, it becomes more timing dependent, rather than less.)

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

On the contrary, I don't really hate or love PLD in particular. Its usability/accessibility is especially good given the stringent oGCD bloat of DRK/GNB, though WAR fills this void particularly well.

If anything, I think they need to think carefully with how they handle PLD next expansion. Main reason being how screwed up things were with Fight Design this expansion as well as PLD's kit conflicting with the "meta" 2m Burst Window they perceived. All of that could've simply been avoided if they took more time in the RnD department to hammer out fight inconsistencies using the weakest and strongest compositions in the game to see if it can be done.

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Yes god forbid anything stuck even one inch outside of the BlandTankTemplate tm job

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

No, changes are fine so far, most people that like the changes are avoiding places like here because they know it's gonna be a miserable echo chamber with people bitching and moaning instead of putting the time in to learn the rotations first, and it'll probably impact their fun. Hell nothing but complaining as soon as patch notes dropped lmao folks seem to like to do nothing but complain, complain, complain.

Maybe play the game instead or go outside.

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LMAO "learning rotations"

Imagine writing this shit as they water down yet another job in the game. Yeah THAT'S the problem people have. that they have to "learn the rotation".

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Originally Posted by Pibz

LMAO "learning rotations"

Imagine writing this shit as they water down yet another job in the game. Yeah THAT'S the problem people have. that they have to "learn the rotation".

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Imagine trying to feel relevant by commenting to a 6 month old post when written at a point in time there was still about 3 rotation that were under consideration, while there was nothing but miserable people like yourself moaning incessantly but contributing nothing of value.

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Originally Posted by Pibz

LMAO "learning rotations"

Imagine writing this shit as they water down yet another job in the game. Yeah THAT'S the problem people have. that they have to "learn the rotation".

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He's right, though. This forum's most prolific posters and posts are complaining about the status quo and demanding changes, and then attacking any changes made, sometimes even changes that they more or less asked for. While you can argue they're different people, sometimes they actually aren't.

And he's right about this being an echo chamber, too. PLD and SMN reworks have both been pretty well received everywhere but the forums dedicated to the game. People in game seem to like them, it's just the people that want to inflate egos by talking down "brain-dead" things to prove they're cool/etc that have a problem with it.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And, well, in-game, on Reddit, in various XIV Discords, across most polls, etc.

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And in game, in different discussion groups, in different various XIV Discords, and in actual census data, etc., they have been pretty well received. Hell, in the "everyone hates new PLD now" thread here of all places, the result has been mixed rather than completely negative, with a lot saying they like it and many saying that they're neutral and/or don't see it as worse than PLD before.

But let's ignore those since we wouldn't then be able to dismiss any population with an opinion not replaceable with unrequested spokespeople as a "vocal minority".

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ahh, yes, the community (alone) is to blame for most Monkey's Paw changes.

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Largely, yes.

Not ALL, but a significant amount of changes were in response to community requests. Why do we have a Tomestone Relic? Because a significant amount of people complained about Eureka and Bozja (which was itself an attempt to address the complaints about Eureka). People wished on the Monkey's Paw for something different, and they got it - not what they wanted; they wanted HW again.

People on one Job complain about something another has that seems like good QOL for them, but that's what homogenization looks like. Even seeing how close DRK is to WAR, a lot of DRK players are asking for it to be more like WAR - not using those words. They want more self-sustain, especially in dungeons - kinda like what WAR has - they want less oGCD spam and more big, meaty, hard feeling hitting abilities to reflect their big slow sword - kinda like what WAR has. No one sees that as what they're asking for...but it's what they're asking for. They think it's different, not homogenization, can be done where it "feels" different, etc, to be fair to them...but the end result is generally the same. Hell, the Dev solution to Living Dead was to slap Bloodwhetting onto it.

The 2 min meta is from people complaining about how it was annoying trying to line up buffs and how some comps didn't work well in ShB because the buffs didn't line up. The crit meta and boosted damage (playing even more into the burst meta) of autocrit abilities was also the result of complaints.

Obviously, the complainers didn't want THOSE solutions, but the "solutions" are mostly due to complaints.

Not all, no. But quite a few. That's what a Monkey's Paw is and how it works - you make a wish, and it corrupts it. But it starts with a wish.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

PLD and SMN reworks have both been pretty well received everywhere but the forums dedicated to the game...

it's just the people that want to inflate egos by talking down "brain-dead" things to prove they're cool/etc that have a problem with it.

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And, well, in-game, on Reddit, in various XIV Discords, across most polls, etc.

But let's ignore those since we wouldn't then be able to dismiss any population with an opinion not replaceable with unrequested spokespeople as a "vocal minority".

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This forum's most prolific posters and posts are complaining about the status quo and demanding changes, and then attacking any changes made

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Ahh, yes, the community (alone) is to blame for most Monkey's Paw changes.

/sigh

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Originally Posted by Renathras

That's what a Monkey's Paw is and how it works - you make a wish, and it corrupts it. But it starts with a wish.

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Except any response for which the requester can be blamed, Monkey's Paw or no, has to be to the actual request, not a conveniently cherry-picked portion thereof that ignores all context and purposely misconstrues the message.

An actual Monkey's Paw outcome starts with the wish, not 'the wish, if most of it were removed and the rest played backward.'

We still call the disliked outcomes "Monkey's Paw" as shorthand because the wish was perverted, but in this case it's because the wish was never really listened to in the first place, not because of some demonic intent.

If we had been painfully ambiguous leading up to the given unsatifying outcome, I would agree -- we would be at fault. But those aren't the cases that get "attacked", as you put it.

What was the most common complaint when Ninjas were complaining about the impact of latency on Mudras/Ninjutsu? The uptime cost due to ping.

There was no community push to make them into GCDs. There was, however, a hugely unified push to remove the way our clients reset their truly global internal cooldowns (the period of time after any action for which no further action can be made), to the benefit of every job in the game.

While the TCJ change was borrowed wholesale from the community, there was zero push to further simplify NIN's GCD rotation by turning a combo into Sonic Break-lite.

If the changes were made per the actual requests given, we'd simply have seen the roundtrip-ping uptime cost per action removed from the game (currently done by a large portion of PC players via a plugin that just toggles off that unnecessary self-sabotage), DWD-Assassination turned into a single button, TCJ possibly swiftened, and Meisui buffed or rehauled. That was it. The requests were very clear, and no part of them asked for the removal of combos.

Shake it Off? Warriors asked for it to actually work (i.e., cleanse at least what all Esuna could), and to be potentially buffed to actually have effect in that same vein worth putting on one's bar. What did they get? A simplified copy of Veil with the Intervention gimmick in place of Veil's pre-cooling capacity.

Inner Release? Warriors asked for it not to take so long to wind up and to be of better use in emergencies, such as by doubling Beast Gauge generated, and for small Unchained buffs opposite it. What did they get? A complete simplification that removed 2 abilities.

Delirium? Dark Knights asked for it to be more, in itself, than just a bit of extra buff duration and a bit of MP, ideally in a way that makes them feel like they're tapping into that Blood/Void-based 'delirium'. What did they get? A later-day Inner Release clone.

Summoner's whole EW rework? The community asked for its depth to be quickly appreciable / intuitive and for it to build more around summons-as-pets and their elements. The results, most depth was simply outright removed, pets were removed in favor of variably delayed spells (chicken nugget walks in; chicken nugget go boom -> big chicken nugget drops in; big chicken nugget go boom), and the actual number of useful offensive actions for any given point in time were halved. Only a quarter of the result at most followed the community's requests ('their elements'); the rest fell outside the requests or were directly contradictory to them.

Tl;dr:
You would have to go well out of your way to blind yourself to the comments, and then purposely misconstrue what little remains, for those changes that have since been so criticized to have been 'based on' what the community requested. They wouldn't be so heavily criticized if they were actually in keeping with what was asked for.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Except any response for which the requester can be blamed, Monkey's Paw or no, has to be to the actual request, not a conveniently cherry-picked portion thereof that ignores all context and purposely misconstrues the message.

An actual Monkey's Paw outcome starts with the wish, not 'the wish, if most of it were removed and the rest played backward.'

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Speaking of monkeys, I still wonder what monkey asked for removing Kaiten. After all it must have been monkey, there is no way real human can be entertained by spamming on average 1 Shinten every 7.5 - 8 seconds. Can't wait for the devs to "fix" SAM in 7.0 by adding instacasts and more.

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Speaking of monkeys, I still wonder what monkey asked for removing Kaiten. After all it must have been monkey, there is no way real human can be entertained by spamming on average 1 Shinten even 7.5 - 8 seconds. Can't wait for the devs to "fix" SAM in 7.0 by adding instacasts and more.

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We give: "Endwalker Samurai has a bloated number of actions. Examples: Shoha II not being simply an upgrade or conditional effect of Shoha, Ogi Namikiri being separate from Ikishoten. Additionally, the removal of varied Kenki costs (and the lesser frequency of burst Kenki generation) has made SAM's gauge expenditure feel increasingly like Shinten-spam."

We get: *Kaiten removed. All gauge use outside of movement skills is now effectively Shinten-spam.*

...: "But hey, the community said there was action bloat! And you all mentioned Shinten spam!"

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We give: "Endwalker Samurai has a bloated number of actions. Examples: Shoha II not being simply an upgrade or conditional effect of Shoha, Ogi Namikiri being separate from Ikishoten. Additionally, the removal of varied Kenki costs (and the lesser frequency of burst Kenki generation) has made SAM's gauge expenditure feel increasingly like Shinten-spam."

We get: *Kaiten removed. All gauge use outside of movement skills is now effectively Shinten-spam.*

...: "But hey, the community said there was action bloat! And you all mentioned Shinten spam!"

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Best part is that because Shinten is 25 kenki and Kaiten was 20, it made it so now you would leave burst with 10 kenki, so you want to use that last kenki for gap closer to get extra 100p under pot. So not only there is exact same amount of actions you use in burst, but you also use same amount of buttons, and on top of that, you use gap closer for its damage (which imo is much worse design that using X before every Y). Burst barely changed, and you get very, very slightly less actions in filler, which is really not the problematic part. All it did was to make freestyle SAM even more viable.

https://i.imgur.com/gc44m7E.png

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Originally Posted by Deo14

Best part is that because Shinten is 25 kenki and Kaiten was 20, it made it so now you would leave burst with 10 kenki, so you want to use that last kenki for gap closer to get extra 100p under pot. So not only there is exact same amount of actions you use in burst, but you also use same amount of buttons, and on top of that, you use gap closer for its damage (which imo is much worse design that using X before every Y). Burst barely changed, and you get very, very slightly less actions in filler, which is really not the problematic part. All it did was to make freestyle SAM even more viable.

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Tbf, I'm not going to give them crap over the ~4 rppm difference of the gap closer under pot, and I don't mind "Freestyle" SAM being less punishing.

I just think the gauge should have a goddamn point and worry that they'll now, instead of returning Kaiten or reverting Guren/Senei to 50 gauge, probably just remove Yaten/Guren from the gauge, too and replace them with 3 shared charges on a 30s CD.*

* (Not that I'd hate 2-3 shared charges for Yaten/Gyoten each on a 10s CD or shorter, on the gauge, to be clear.)

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I feel like the magic healing on Paladin is kind of ugh, theirs so much of it and the sustain is really strong but at the same time it feels useless when you don't need it and out of your hands, Removing Pld's self healing from magic and reducing/changing Shelltrons sustain up for more controlled sustain on Something like Clemency (that's also ocgd) would be really nice for MT/OT PLD.

Right now (In terms of "healing") it feels like PLD's more selfish then warrior? with it's healing which is kind of weird.. Not to say paladin lacks group/target healing I just think the Self sustain could be toned down alot for targetable sustain such as getting a free clemency here and there every minute, Warrior should also stop having teammate healing personally, also reduce its aoe sustain capabilities even if that's not important for savage ect. Healers shouldn't expect to afk because they got funny infinite self healing axe tank.

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Maybe it'd be op but why not change cover into an ability like sages kardion?
You can heal your other tank instead as an off tank or swap it on to people to give them heals with your burst
cover is already so incredibly situational when intervention generally saves the player too without you taking full damage

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Maybe it'd be op but why not change cover into an ability like sages kardion?
You can heal your other tank instead as an off tank or swap it on to people to give them heals with your burst
cover is already so incredibly situational when intervention generally saves the player too without you taking full damage

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I mean, it still doesn't really fix the simple fact that untimeable cure-ppgcd is, well, kinda boring. The only optimization available to it is to try to take sufficient damage before it starts going that it doesn't overheal. Remove half of even that component, though, and it's arguably even duller.

That is to say, if anything, the fact that our Req actions only heals us makes it more interesting than otherwise, since it gives us some added complexity to our swapping in and out of MT position, at least.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Maybe it'd be op but why not change cover into an ability like sages kardion?

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I would honestly prefer if they made Cover a role skill that all tanks can access. The utility and creativity you can have when both tanks can use Cover far outweighs its exclusivity to PLD. On that note, they really need to rework blocking in this game so you don't get situations like in DSR. I also feel like blocking is heavily underused as another form of ehp mitigation that is exclusive to PLD similar to how WAR has ToB and DRK has TBN. They had an interesting idea back in ARR with different shields offering different mitigations that paired well with Bulwark (which we ironically got back).

I'm not saying go back to that but the synergy of your equipment affecting your cds is something only WAR has taken full advantage of. I still feel like WAR is the best designed job in the game because of its interaction with its cds, in relation to its gameplay loop. You only need to go back to HW when STR accessories pushed WAR over the top to see my point. Maybe one day the devs will realize that blocking can be as strong as TBN or stronger if they decide to make blocking additive instead of multiplicative. Hypothetically in that scenario, if you pair Bulwark with Sentinel and blocking is a 20-30% mitigation, suddenly the value of healing decreases when you are literally taking 50-60% less dmg. Though I'm sure the glory days of busted defensives are long behind us.

There are both positives and negatives to the rework. Sad to lose the Damage-over-time skill. But the backend clashes with requiscat and other skills were fixed. Overall a clear net gain in playability in my eyes though. I do hope that Fated Circle becomes level 70 someday (currently 72), and have Holy Circle now apply the DoT we lost, even if it were just 10 potency for 30 seconds (Holy Circle is an AoE so it would apply a dot to multiple enemies at once, which would make things interesting).

the major plus sides is that the current foundations can be built upon for 7.0 and later and that there is more active forms of thinking about keeping uptime in fights.

comparatively this rework isn't near as bad as the SMN rework in 6.0 which removed quite a lot things the class had previously for a rotation where you literally press 1 button 80% of the time, 6.3 PLD is solid in its simplicity, and the atonement change allowing for pulled atonements for FoF (atonement shifting in a way when you think about it)

it also addressed 2 of the core issues the class had going for it since 6.0 came out, that being how incompatible with how it is in the 2 min burst windows and how few self mitigations the class had. (it had one less self mitigation tools than other tanks)

cover still being dead since the mit was removed from it is still a weird choice.

i've done DSR on PLD pre rework and the class was a literal nightmare to prog though with, so perhaps that defs changed my perspective on how i didn't really care about the rework overall despite playing PLD since late Stormblood.