When are we supposed to stop fighting?

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Originally Posted by AlysanneVrannai

People on the Source are far more susceptible to dynamis than the Ancients ever were, this is why they so easily succumb to it.

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Ah, yes, when the Ancients succumb to the Final Days, it's a result of their personal failings and weaknesses. However, when the Sundered do, they can't help it because of biological happenstance that isn't their fault, which is why the Scions also all immediately exploded in Thavnair as well. Wait a second...

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Even then, Matsya managed to stave it off with mantras and seeing hope completely saved him.

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Yes, an outside force completely beyond his control appearing to save him, well, saved him. He bought himself a few minutes of time, but still became overwhelmed by the situation and would have succumbed as an individual, mantras and all - a point made in the game by Alisaie, who discusses that what one person can endure can break another, and there's no moral judgment attached to that. It's largely based on happenstance and luck. It's unfortunate for the Ancients that they weren't, frankly, lucky enough that Midgardsormr didn't arrive during their time so that his brood could have come to their dramatic rescue like they did for the Thavnairians.

During Island Sanctuary release, the players will be able to choose wheter to continue the adventure or stop being WoL and become a farmer. If you choose the later you will have a different expansion to buy later on. The first one will be FFXIV Sanctuary : Back To Nature in which the heart system will be implemented. Once an NPC heart is fully red, you will be able to marry them.

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Originally Posted by Lieri

During Island Sanctuary release, the players will be able to choose wheter to continue the adventure or stop being WoL and become a farmer. If you choose the later you will have a different expansion to buy later on. The first one will be FFXIV Sanctuary : Back To Nature in which the heart system will be implemented. Once an NPC heart is fully red, you will be able to marry them.

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Dibs on Karen.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

"Seeing hope" is a poetic way to say "saved by a third party out of the blue." It is a pity that--judging by her own recollection--Venat didn't see fit to extend that sort of "hope" to her people as she strolled past them being attacked, if that is what it takes to make sure people don't succumb to despair.

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And yet the people of Palakas Stand did not rally themselves only when Vrtra arrived, they found their own strength.

Simply put I think many are missing the key message here; the issue isn’t that the Ancients or the Sundered were inherently stronger, but that one possessed the means to create an easy solution to their problems that would in turn damn them, while the other is forced to contend with life’s miseries without the easy out. The Sundered are forced to contend with morality, with the inevitability of the end, and in turn come to grapple with despair and meaning in a way the Ancients just couldn’t. Which again, it doesn’t mean their superior at all, they’re just like the Ancients in the vast majority of ways. It’s the mistake of the Ascians to believe that one side need be more worthy to exist.

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Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

"Seeing hope" is a poetic way to say "saved by a third party out of the blue." It is a pity that--judging by her own recollection--Venat didn't see fit to extend that sort of "hope" to her people as she strolled past them being attacked, if that is what it takes to make sure people don't succumb to despair.

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...you realize that scene wasn't literal, right? Or did you think that Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus walked down a street with no care for a man being eaten beside them, and that both the first two sacrifices and the Sundering took place over a single seven minute period?

Judging by the fact she's pretty roughed-up herself, Venat probably wasn't exactly waiting out the End of Days in safety.

There's more to spirituality than religion. There are many ways to come to terms with questions surrounding why we exist, or how to cope with suffering. In Thavnair, the common folk understand this through the sermons of their old gods, which is why Matsya starts the recitation. Has some Amaurotian scholar abstractly contemplated the philosophy around pain and loss? Possibly, but it seems less likely in a society that refuses to openly acknowledge their existence. Unfortunately, it seems like Amaurot was ultimately forced to confront the issue all at once.

I don't think that there's any shame in relying on each other for help. That's part of being human. Sometimes, part of being a hero is simply standing your ground and holding out until reinforcements arrive. We've been there before, many a time. Matsuya is neither a warrior nor a mage. The point of his journey is to show that even the humblest among us can show great courage in the face of adversity and impossible odds. And that's why the scene resonated with so many people.

Just as a side reference, it's worth noting that in various Vedic traditions, Matsya is a fish avatar that saves humanity from the flood. Yet more interplay of Greco-Roman and Vedic philosophy, much like Aether and Akasha.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

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'I mentioned before that there was a member of the Convocation who opposed Zodiark's summoning and defected. One whose office was left vacant. Defectors having been deemed unworthy of commemoration, no crystal exists for the individual in question. Or shouldn't exist, at any rate - and wouldn't, had a friend not created one in secret.'

So here's the thing. Azem was branded as a traitor. We did not part on good terms. Not only did they remove the seat from existence, they refused to record it in their memories. And when you consider how much stock the Amaurotians placed on their stored memories ('Remember us... Remember that we once lived.') it's easy to see that purging someone from their history was a truly damning thing indeed. How ironic it is, then, that Azem is the one now tasked to remember them.

'As you say, the phenomena observed in the two calamities may both be attributed to dynamis. Of note is the difference in its effect. In the first Final Days, it warped creation magicks. In the second, it warped the people themselves. The key variable, I suspect, is the aetheric density of the men in each age. As you know, aether, in essence, negates dynamis. Harboring high concentrations of aether, we ancients cannot readily manipulate dynamis - nor be manipulated by it. Therefore, rather than ourselves, the calamity affected our magicks.'

And there you have it. Meteion cannot mind-control the Amaurotians into using creation magic against their will using dynamis. She actually can't do anything against them directly. Her ability to affect the Amaurotians is entirely dependent on warping the creations that they've created into blasphemies. In the absence of creation magic, she's powerless to affect them. It was ultimately their dependence on creation magic that unfortunately lead to their downfall.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

There's more to spirituality than religion. There are many ways to come to terms with questions surrounding why we exist, or how to cope with suffering. In Thavnair, the common folk understand this through the sermons of their old gods, which is why Matsya starts the recitation. Has some Amaurotian scholar abstractly contemplated the philosophy around pain and loss? Possibly, but it seems less likely in a society that refuses to openly acknowledge their existence.

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Amaurotine spirituality was centered around the idea that all life was in essence the blood of the star, and that their people should dedicate their lives to the improvement of the star before returning to it to be reincarnated. A random and unknown calamity destroying all life and the star itself simply isn't compatible with that ideology, the Ancients, dedicated to the star, had no excuses to justify suffering and loss leading to the star's own death. They couldn't just say "life is suffering to forge you into a stronger person", because they understood the cycle of life and reincarnation, and that no matter what hardships or achievements you have in life ultimately you are simply reborn anew with all of those experiences lost. Obviously they did contemplate the meaning of life and the notions of pain and loss, and their overall conclusion was that such things were justified by their purpose in life. The problem is that when stripped of their purpose through the oncoming death of everything and the excision of most of their people from the cycle of life, they naturally refused such an outcome. To say they should readily have rationalized utterly meaningless death is frankly nonsensical.

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So here's the thing. Azem was branded as a traitor.

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Nothing in that statement says Azem was branded a traitor. Rather they simply didn't record memories of Azem (the person), because they didn't think a defector was worth commemorating. By the by, the Ascians did actually have all fourteen seats filled back when we saw them all in 2.X.

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is entirely dependent on warping the creations that they've created into blasphemies.

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The Final Days didn't warp their creations into Blasphemes. Rather Terminus Beasts were created through their magic being forcibly usurped and the concepts being siphoned from their minds against their will. The quote you posted is nothing but speculation of how it might work, and note that it's not saying that it afflicted their creations, but rather their magicks themselves.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

And there you have it. Meteion cannot mind-control the Amaurotians into using creation magic against their will using dynamis. She actually can't do anything against them directly. Her ability to affect the Amaurotians is entirely dependent on warping the creations that they've created into blasphemies. In the absence of creation magic, she's powerless to affect them. It was ultimately their dependence on creation magic that unfortunately lead to their downfall.

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You are wrong. We watched an Ancient summon a creature against his will during that final days cutscene. He is huddled over in terror as his magic goes off outside of his control.

'By your bemused expression, I gather you find it odd that your elders can fail in so simple an application of creation magicks? It is more common than you realize, little one. In this instance, a gaggle of children was passing by as I held the image of the robes in my mind's eye. Simply by becoming aware of their presence was the form influenced and the final product changed. All things considered, it could have been worse. Just the other day, I was attempting to conceive a white haired lion, when all of a sudden this exquisite eagle alighted on the nearby railing, giving me quite the shock - and dramatically altering my initial concept!'

You saw exactly what was described by the in-game lore text: a summoner losing control of the form of their summon. In fact, you don't even need dynamis for this to happen. Imagine, then, what happens when you're terrified and desperately try to pull out something to save yourself, the only way you know how.

I don't think that the philosophy of 'doing your best for the planet' was at odds with the death and destruction the Final Days brought. What it was at odds with was the second part that follows, which you omitted:
'To return to the star whence we came is a privilege afforded to we who have so loved and nurtured it. A choice embraced by those who have lived their lives to the fullest, in service to our world. And when they depart upon this journey, it is beautiful. Always.'

We don't encounter pain, suffering, and death out of choice, or because they have some deeper meaning. Life finds a way to force them on us, no matter how fortunate we are, and no amount of escapism can change that immutable truth. It doesn't matter what your beliefs or higher purpose is, so long as you have the courage and strength to take that next step forward.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

And yet the people of Palakas Stand did not rally themselves only when Vrtra arrived, they found their own strength.

Simply put I think many are missing the key message here; the issue isn’t that the Ancients or the Sundered were inherently stronger, but that one possessed the means to create an easy solution to their problems that would in turn damn them, while the other is forced to contend with life’s miseries without the easy out. The Sundered are forced to contend with morality, with the inevitability of the end, and in turn come to grapple with despair and meaning in a way the Ancients just couldn’t. Which again, it doesn’t mean their superior at all, they’re just like the Ancients in the vast majority of ways. It’s the mistake of the Ascians to believe that one side need be more worthy to exist.

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This is where i’m confused. How exactly is Zodiark an easy solution? It required people sacrificing themselves for other to even create him. How exactly is that an easy solution compared to….the sundered having everything handed to them. From a goddess looking out for them in no way different than Zodiark tbh, to having time travel just thrown into their hands(an ancient had to sacrifice himself to make this possible by the way in case you forgot) and the spaceship we take was done again….via a higher up being. The only thing you can really argue the sundered triumphed in were the ultima thule sequences, but they were able to come back, the ancients weren’t. The ancients had to content with the full force of the final days.They were barely able to handle the towers and the final days hitting some of the city states and thavnair/garlemald. The ancient final days was a world wide threat. The only difference being that the sundered final days actually resulted in peoples souls completely snuffed out with no hopes of reincarnation.

They had more than 14 during that 2.x scene though. We also know from the Hythlodaeus shade that they hadn't refilled the seat. I highly doubt Emet would have secretly made the Azem crystal and then go and refill the seat using some random person. It also doesn't make sense as to why you'd want a person who's job practically is to go do what a WoL does. Especially when Elidibus was already occasionally doing that in order to try and keep some form of balance. Even if they had found a shard of Azem and tried to do what happened in the Eden storyline to them. I just don't see said shard agreeing with the rejoinings.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

This is where i’m confused. How exactly is Zodiark an easy solution? It required people sacrificing themselves for other to even create him. How exactly is that an easy solution compared to….the sundered having everything handed to them.

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Zodiark was granted power beyond imagining, and was summoned with one intention, salvation. So long as He was an active presence in the world, He would do everything to answer the prayers of those living on Etheirys. Any issue, any conflict, any suffering he would act upon. We see this happen when Elidibus involuntarily comes to meet with us on the outskirts of the Crystarium. Even removed from him, Elidibus still possessed that all encompassing desire to answer the prayers and fears of those around him, though not strongly enough to make him abandon his mission. As I’m sure Venat realized, this creates a problem when faced with a being more powerful than Zodiark that cannot be defeated without overcoming suffering and despair with hope. Few given the choice would never choose the harder path, after all who would willingly choose to feel soul crushing grief or loss or pain if they didn’t have to? That’s why it’s the easy path.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

From a goddess looking out for them in no way different than Zodiark tbh, to having time travel just thrown into their hands(an ancient had to sacrifice himself to make this possible by the way in case you forgot) and the spaceship we take was done again….via a higher up being.

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Hydaelyn was removed from the wider world for most of Her existence, a myth and legend only interacted with in the most dire of circumstances. Did She offer aid? Sure. But never did She willingly engender worship, or shift peoples faith away from themselves and onto Her. The closest to what the Amaurotines were to Zodiark was the Church of Light on the First, and they’re as much Hydaelyn worshippers as the Nights Blessed are Zodiark believers.

And tell me how much use did the moon get after Zodiark fell?

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

The only thing you can really argue the sundered triumphed in were the ultima thule sequences, but they were able to come back, the ancients weren’t. The ancients had to content with the full force of the final days.They were barely able to handle the towers and the final days hitting some of the city states and thavnair/garlemald. The ancient final days was a world wide threat. The only difference being that the sundered final days actually resulted in peoples souls completely snuffed out with no hopes of reincarnation.

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Whether there’s zero chance is debatable with the role quests. For most I’d agree there’s nothing to save though.

And what does that have to do with the triumph of the Sundered? The Ancients would not have survived Ultima Thule even should they have made it.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

The Final Days didn't warp their creations into Blasphemes. Rather Terminus Beasts were created through their magic being forcibly usurped and the concepts being siphoned from their minds against their will. The quote you posted is nothing but speculation of how it might work, and note that it's not saying that it afflicted their creations, but rather their magicks themselves.

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Yep and it fails to account for how dynamis would even affect them to put them into a state of despair in the first place if it were not possible at all. The natural conclusion here is that the transformation is what their denser aether inhibits. We see the creations discussed here even before the incident spread like wildfire to the point that mass panic occurred, as incidents of "spontaneous creation". My guess is that that "readily" Hermes specifies is meant to be taken in conjunction with both the ability to manipulate dynamis, and to be affected by it, because the latter quite clearly is possible through rendering them in a state of despair in the first place. Indeed this is how it reads in the FR version, where it simply premises it as interaction with dynamis becoming easier if the aether is thinner.

Meanwhile the shade's description on it is emphatic:

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Have you not heard? Though yet confined to the lands across the sea, a terrible phenomenon afflicts our star. They are calling it the “Final Days.”
'Tis said it starts suddenly, a cacophonous keening from beneath the earth. The sound distorts all living things within earshot, and wrests from us control of our creation magicks.
Once that happens, all is lost. Fear, pain, despair...every dread impulse is siphoned from our minds and given substance: an eternal fall of fiery rain; an incessant spawning of nightmarish beasts...
None can point to the source of the phenomenon. 'Tis as if the star itself has fallen ill─as if a force inimical to life now festers and spreads.
'Tis only a matter of time until Amaurot, too, resounds to that discordant squall. You should stay with your loved ones, child... Stay with them...

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So I think that quote does not make the point that their creation magicks could not be affected (indeed, his own words contradict that) - all it seems to be saying is that it did not affect their bodies (and souls?) wholesale via transformations because of their denser aether. Emotional states, and yes, seemingly even control over creation magicks, could be affected. The ancients already knew they could accidentally create things sometimes (underscoring once more how natural this ability is to them) – so I doubt the loss of control would even have been seen as noteworthy if it were not for the precipitating factor (=keening) that led to it, as opposed to the usual accidental use of such magicks in situations of panic, shock etc. You could just drop it and attribute the loss of control to the despair - yet this isn't how it's described at all, hence this loss of control seems to be pivotal here as a differentiating factor.

The subterranean keening aspect appears to remain unexplained, and perhaps Pandaemonium may touch on it. The 1.0 CNJ quests detailed similar events with the elementals whereby their wrath results in a keening and they seize control over the will of man; the game is silent on the role of the elementals in the ancient world, to the extent that they even existed and, if they did, how they’d react to a sustained onslaught of despair beyond the rather ephemeral Final Days the current timeline saw. Possible red herring but I find it interesting.

The Meteia are entelechies. They don't directly create despair themselves. They take the emotion that they encounter in others, amplify it, and give it form. You'll remember, for example, that Meteion enjoys candied apples, even though she cannot eat, because of the emotion she feels from Hermes when he does. If joy was the predominant ambient emotion that the Meteia had encountered on their travels, then we'd be fighting off sunshine and rainbows.

We know for a fact based on the in-game text that the Amaurotians can neither manipulate nor be manipulated by dynamis due to their aetheric density. If it was that easy, then they would have simply killed themselves like many of the other civilizations that the Meteia encountered. Their underlying emotions can still be perceived by entelechies, however. We know this from the Elpis bloom phenomenon. The Amaurotians' despair was their own, not Meteion's.

We also know that there always needs to be an initiating event to get the ball rolling. In Thavnair, Khalzahl's business fell on hard times and he lost a critical trade deal, causing him to go into abject despair. It's only after he transformed that the sky began to burn. Likewise, there would have needed to be an initiating event in Amaurotian society, where someone's despair got the best of them, leading to the creation of the first terminus beasts.

The Amaurotians themselves tell you that it's quite common to accidentally give form to an altered concept based off of the workings of your unconscious mind. In some cases, this leads to a fortuitous discovery. With Meteion's influence, however, none of that was safe. Nor, I suspect, were any of their existing creations, while we're at it. Perhaps even moreso given that Lahabrea's group were experimenting with merging souls with creation magic at precisely the wrong time. Who knows what happens if a less aetherically dense construct fused with an Amaurotian soul, like a hemitheos, catches the dynamis flu. I wouldn't be surprised if the raid series elaborates on this further.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

The subterranean keening aspect appears to remain unexplained, and perhaps Pandaemonium may touch on it. The 1.0 CNJ quests detailed similar events with the elementals whereby their wrath results in a keening and they seize control over the will of man; the game is silent on the role of the elementals in the ancient world, to the extent that they even existed and, if they did, how they’d react to a sustained onslaught of despair beyond the rather ephemeral Final Days the current timeline saw. Possible red herring but I find it interesting.

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I kind of feel like that's a plot thread that they might latch onto going into the future, because there was a noticeable lack of the natural disasters that were tearing the world apart that were present with the original Final Days, which to me suggests they might've been coming from somewhere else. Either things simply didn't progress far enough to trigger them, or worse, we haven't actually seen them manifest yet.

The prophetic words of the Golden Dyhata suggesting the Lifestream itself will eventually be responsible for widespread disaster is something that raises particular concern to me.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

I kind of feel like that's a plot thread that they might latch onto going into the future, because there was a noticeable lack of the natural disasters that were tearing the world apart that were present with the original Final Days, which to me suggests they might've been coming from somewhere else. Either things simply didn't progress far enough to trigger them, or worse, we haven't actually seen them manifest yet.

The prophetic words of the Golden Dyhata suggesting the Lifestream itself will eventually be responsible for widespread disaster is something that raises particular concern to me.

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I feel the same too. If Pandaemonium does not cover this, then it's very likely this is what Azem was off doing during Zodiark and Hydaelyn and the Sundering. If this also leads to what was originally causing the weakening of the Aether as well, then we have an underlying link for things. Especially considering how the FSH quest for the Studium pointed out how the fish ended up going all over the place into regions they're not supposed to be with Zodiark's death, the aethercurrents went out of whack with his departure.

It's more that the world is attempting to return to its natural state since Zodiark was redirecting aether into the heavens to form a ward against the dynamis. It seems extremely unlikely that such a shift won't have deeper repercussions then simply causing aether sickness in wildlife present in regions where the aether levels are increasing.

The "serpent shedding its skin of old" that the dhyata mentions could be referring to that and it was also mentioned that anomalies were being detected within the Lifestream in the same questline, so this really feels like another calm before a storm.

As for how it could end up leading to future conflict, I feel the source of the problem might be isolated to Meracydia or the New World and we'll inevitably end up getting entangled in their political matters trying to get at it.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

We know for a fact based on the in-game text that the Amaurotians can neither manipulate nor be manipulated by dynamis due to their aetheric density. If it was that easy, then they would have simply killed themselves like many of the other civilizations that the Meteia encountered. Their underlying emotions can still be perceived by entelechies, however. We know this from the Elpis bloom phenomenon. The Amaurotians' despair was their own, not Meteion's.

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Just before this you said Meteion takes despair and amplifies it. She had the accumulated despair of hundreds if not thousands of dead and dying worlds at her disposal to inflict upon the Ancients. Even if you want to say that she was only amplifying their despair, which is clearly not all there is to it, that's still manipulating them. And we know that in truth they could manipulate and be manipulated by it, as evidenced by Meteion and the Elpis flower being capable of reading their emotions, which is facilitated by a Dynamis reaction.

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The Amaurotians themselves tell you that it's quite common to accidentally give form to an altered concept based off of the workings of your unconscious mind.

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Yes. When attempting to utilize creation magic. You do understand that you are insisting here that the Ancients created millions of horrific monsters which set to killing them because they were just so stubborn and stupid that they couldn't recognize that "trying to use creation magic = death", right?

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

It's more that the world is attempting to return to its natural state since Zodiark was redirecting aether into the heavens to form a ward against the dynamis. It seems extremely unlikely that such a shift won't have deeper repercussions then simply causing aether sickness in wildlife present in regions where the aether levels are increasing.

The "serpent shedding its skin of old" that the dhyata mentions could be referring to that and it was also mentioned that anomalies were being detected within the Lifestream in the same questline, so this really feels like another calm before a storm.

As for how it could end up leading to future conflict, I feel the source of the problem might be isolated to Meracydia or the New World and we'll inevitably end up getting entangled in their political matters trying to get at it.

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If not isolated, then cases could end up showing up in both regions as a showing of the Lifestream's changing, perhaps leading to a new world ending threat (if the devs so wished to escalate again). If not, then it'll be a simple case of "go to this region, fix its aether."

The prophecy did mention that there would need to be multiple stakes driven into the figurative serpent's back.

That could be the reason for our zone-hopping in the next expansion, or it could be a much longer term process with us needing to scour the entire world for anomalies as the next story arc.

It would be all the more fitting if it turns out that was the mysterious task the original Azem had seemingly devoted themselves to doing in lieu of taking sides in the Hydaelyn/Zodiark conflict, but ultimately was not able to fulfill due to the Sundering throwing a wrench in things.

It is impossible to jump into this conversation at this point. I think a few people may be very slightly misremembering some points or are assuming things unsaid...or perhaps I am. I need to go back and rewatch and read some stuff perhaps to narrow down what, EXACTLY, is said but I think it's fair to say that this expansion's story could've been delivered in a more definitive and explained manner for sure.

I don't know how universal the saying is, but "The world is not yet complete." as I sometimes hear muttered.
"Progress is not linear" might be more common.

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

Hydaelyn was removed from the wider world for most of Her existence, a myth and legend only interacted with in the most dire of circumstances. Did She offer aid? Sure. But never did She willingly engender worship, or shift peoples faith away from themselves and onto Her. The closest to what the Amaurotines were to Zodiark was the Church of Light on the First, and they’re as much Hydaelyn worshippers as the Nights Blessed are Zodiark believers.

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That's uh... not entirely accurate. She very much did actively encourage faith at one point. This is made abundantly clear even as far back as ARR. What Venat says is not always what she does.

The above aside, might we now return this thread to its intended subject matter? Not every topic needs to be hijacked by the Venat global fedora initiative or the Zodiark neckbeard association.

If you read beyond the title of the question OP put up, they appear to be pointing out how they dislike that the game puts forth as a universal truth that to end suffering is to embrace annihalation.

"One thing that's bothered me since beating the story is the whole we need to suffer to learn and live angle.
Or how the last dungeon and meteon pushed that things got too good and people just gave up.
Our whole deal is fighting to solve issues and make things better, we've traveled through time, space and reality to make things better, to win, to keep marching toward a world where things are better and we're not needed, one where no one needs to fight.
So doesn't that mean our endgame would lead to annihilation?"

And they are right. The path of the WoL would doom all existence to death because they fight to try and make the world a better place without suffering. And per the lore in the game that is bad.

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Originally Posted by Necrotica

And they are right. The path of the WoL would doom all existence to death because they fight to try and make the world a better place without suffering. And per the lore in the game that is bad.

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"We should strive to make the world a better place to live" =/= "We should eliminate every even mildly negative aspect of life and ascend to a state of perfection and borderline godhood"

The WoL doesn't have the ability to rid the world of suffering forever, and they never will

There are too many factors involved in truly ridding the world of suffering for such a thing to ever be reasonably attainable for Etheriys.

Physical factors like disease and aging would need to be eliminated, as well the myriad sources of strife that divide mankind.

Even the pre-sundering world seemed to have its own share of problems festering beneath the perceived "perfection".

The WoL isn't trying to make the world a perfect utopia either, they just help people with thier small scale problems in between dealing with large scale threats to the stability of the world.

It's very obvious that if the world continues to improve, suffering will be lessened and eliminated in many ways. It may not happen in WoL's lifetime, but if humanity doesn't destroy itself it will eventually advance to near-utopic levels of existence. The super-science of Allag, for example, will someday be attained again so long as people like Cid and Nero want to innovate and create - Should they be told to stop because someday in the future people will be too sheltered from suffering and be forced to face existentialist questions? I think this sort of idea is what OP is getting at.

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Originally Posted by Veloran

It's very obvious that if the world continues to improve, suffering will be lessened and eliminated in many ways. It may not happen in WoL's lifetime, but if humanity doesn't destroy itself it will eventually advance to near-utopic levels of existence. The super-science of Allag, for example, will someday be attained again so long as people like Cid and Nero want to innovate and create - Should they be told to stop because someday in the future people will be too sheltered from suffering and be forced to face existentialist questions? I think this sort of idea is what OP is getting at.

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Not to mention, thanks to the examples Meteion gives us, other civilizations have been able to eradicate things like diseases, so even that could potentially be rendered obsolete in the future. That’s what makes this whole theme feel so shallow, when are you supposed to stop? Why is it wrong to want to make the world as better and as perfect as can be? It’s just so weird to me lol. Eventually the sundered world may hit a dead end, but who’s to judge whether it’s wrong or right? Meteion’s logic and Hermes’ by extension is incredibly flawed. I don’t think any society is destined to last forever, but you can make it last as long as possible and that’s what i saw with both the ancient world and the sundered world. They’re both working towards the betterment of their world. Hermes and by extension Venat were just mentally ill it seems and couldn’t grasp that rationale.

honestly, a lot of people seem to be forgetting there was nothing wrong with Etheirys in the first place, there WAS something wrong with how Hermes perceived Life on Etheirys, and in what drives his fellow man, <== that was the problem all along. Etheirys WAS in fact a mixture of what it needed to be in order for life to continue on as normal, Hydaelyn only remade the world differently because she needed mankind to become something more, something able to stop Meteion. She couldn't rely on mankind as it had been in her time because those humans couldn't perceive Dynamis, or use it. So she sundered it into small chunks and the humans that came after were thus sundered but also now capable of perceiving and manipulating Dynamis and thus able to combat Meteion. Will Etheirys ever become like it was before? Probably not, but there wasn't anything fundamentally wrong with it beforehand either. As for when will the fighting stop between new Etheiry's societies, not anytime soon, and definitely not in our heroes lifetime, so the fighting for us if we so choose to get involved will never stop.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

honestly, a lot of people seem to be forgetting there was nothing wrong with Etheirys in the first place, there WAS something wrong with how Hermes perceived Life on Etheirys, and in what drives his fellow man, <== that was the problem all along. Etheirys WAS in fact a mixture of what it needed to be in order for life to continue on as normal, Hydaelyn only remade the world differently because she needed mankind to become something more, something able to stop Meteion. She couldn't rely on mankind as it had been in her time because those humans couldn't perceive Dynamis, or use it. So she sundered it into small chunks and the humans that came after were thus sundered but also now capable of perceiving and manipulating Dynamis and thus able to combat Meteion. Will Etheirys ever become like it was before? Probably not, but there wasn't anything fundamentally wrong with it beforehand either. As for when will the fighting stop between new Etheiry's societies, not anytime soon, and definitely not in our heroes lifetime, so the fighting for us if we so choose to get involved will never stop.

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I would 100% agree with this IF the cutscene with Venat did not make it very clear that she Sundered the world because the Ancients wanted to undo the damage done and bring back their friends stuck inside Zodiark. To go back to the way things were. Venat judged that the wrong answer and enforced her will on all existence.

Every society that Meteion encountered achieved their own narrowly defined standard for 'perfection'. But that's not the same thing as happiness. Chase perfection if that's what you enjoy doing, but don't be disappointed when it doesn't live up to your expectations.

Hermes was not the only one asking existential questions about his society. Other Amaurotians were as well:
'But even inspiration has its limits. For all the wonders we have wrought, I do wonder if there will come a time when we have fully explored the potential of our powers - when there is nothing truly left unmade, and only iteration and imitation and stagnation remain.'

People will always encounter setbacks so long as they have expectations. You need to have resilience in order to survive. Rather than blaming the world for giving you hardships, improve yourself to become strong enough to overcome them. 'Oh, b-but if everything always happened the way that I wanted it to and nobody ever did bad things to me, I'll never be sad.' That's a child's way of thinking. Stop looking for scapegoats to explain away your faults. Grow up and sort yourself out before you try to sort out the world.

One society achieved their idea of perfection.
Another wanted to achieve immortality but learned it was impossible. (Not true but they lacked imagination)
Another was wiped out by disease.
Another was wiped out in war with one guy left.
Another had 1 guy think they were perfect and made all the others sit and do nothing. (Omicrons had their own version of Venat!)

If your references are based off of the Dead Ends, here are the three civilizations that we get to see in detail:

Tessera ('Four'): Edifices surmised to be abandoned residences found. No extant life-forms detected. Deadly plague or extreme environmental degradation likely to have lead to mass extinction.

'Beneath the waves we knew only peace and plenty. We wanted for not, and yet craved more, that our progeny might someday flourish as we never could. Eventually we ventured to the lands above bearing flame and iron, toppling any who dared oppose our might. The world was ours for the taking.'
'This world is not the boundless paradise we were promised. Our population quickly outstripped the habitable land, while seas we thought would shine forever blue ran dry, spoiled in forging the tools of conquest. Cramped homes turned to squalor, and then came the sickness. Our undoing - and the final blessing this star has to offer. We are no longer the fools we once were. Wheresoever life goes, death will follow. Indeed, existence is but the most painful path unto nothingness - and the wise embrace their obliteration willingly.'

The Tesserans lived in the sea and dreamed of expanding outside of it to conquer the entire planet. They achieved their goals and did. The plague and famine that wiped them out is in is a consequence of population expansion and overcrowding after they destroyed all their natural resources.

Okto ('Eight'): Star found in state of violent conflict. Contact successfully made with inhabitants, but deployment of weapons of mass destruction resulted in total annihilation of local population shortly thereafter.

That otherworldly beings should first grace us with their presence is a sign. Indeed, they understand that we - the Global Community - are possessed of the wisdom and compassion needed to guide this star back to the path of righteousness. Yet the Freedom Fighters dare to undermine us, inviting chaos to disrupt the order we labored so hard to build. They have forgotten the history of this star and its once myriad nations. The wars waged, the countless lives lost. They must be brought to heel, the world united under a single standard, no matter the cost.'
'We constructed the Peacekeeper, the pinnacle of engineering and technology. This mighty war machine was designed to rid us of the Freedom Fighters, as well as any other potential threats to the peace we have so long pined for. Its artificial intelligence ensures that this singular function is carried out with cold and calculating precision. Indeed, the 10,000 Peacekeeper units we created have now routed every threat to peace... including us. All that remains is to stand and fight.'

The Global Community of Okto dreamed of unifying the country under one banner. To do so, they created a powerful AI, that even found a cure to prevent disease, in addition to destroying their enemies. They achieved their goal - and then the AI tried to eradicate them, drawing them into one last battle where they destroyed each other.

Unnamed final planet: (This has some similarities to Deka-Pente's description, but it doesn't quite match up).

'A curious traveler visited our star - a bird which proffered these questions: "What meaning does life hold? For what do you strive?" I could find no satisfactory answers, only bittersweet memories of an age long past. There was a time when we were lesser, and in our nescience sought purpose - struggled to justify life's worth. That was, of course, before we achieved perfection. Now, condemned to our paradise, we understand the fatuity of existence. Like the fledglings we once were, the poor bird could not accept the truth. It asked us again and again - hoping, perhaps, our answer might change.'
'There was a time when we yearned to explore the heavens, found purpose in the hope of unveiling life's mysteries. A dream shattered when we reached enlighten, and found it empty. There was a time when we believed in our legacy, thought ourselves marking a worthy path our successors might follow. Efforts rendered futile when we discovered the keys to paradise and immortality. As individuals we struggled to know what was right, yet in today's perfect unity there is naught left to question. We are infinity constricted by the finite, but no more - Ra-la shall grant us the mercy of annihilation.'

The inhabitants of this final world achieved perfection, immortality, and unity in a collective consciousness. And then they got tired of that and created Ra-la to put them to sleep for eternity.

It's all well and good to set off in pursuit of 'perfection', whatever that may mean to you, but you also have to ask yourself why you're doing it. How will this make you happy? If your starting premise is flawed, then your success will be meaningless. And everyone has to find that answer on their own. For example, the society described in the final planet doesn't sound appealing to me regardless of what they've achieved. The conformity sounds miserable. But maybe that's your thing. Bottom line is, no matter how well you achieve your goals, if you're miserable to start with, you're going to stay miserable on achieving them. By contrast, no matter what your hardships are, if you're resilient, you'll always find some small piece of happiness even if everything else gets taken from you.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

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I think my question here is then what was it exactly the ancients did that warranted their extinction? They had something to strive for, the betterment of their planet. For all we know after that occurred they could have moved on to another planet to better that one as well. Some had doubts and existential problems but as we see via the side quests, they kind of resolve their vows and take the time to remember why they do this and express joy with it.

Did the Tesserans 'deserve' to be wiped out by a plague? Did the Global Community 'deserve' to be destroyed by a rogue AI? These are not questions with an objective answer. You can identify contributing factors post-mortem, but that's about it.

Even if Hermes didn't exist and the Final Days had never occurred, what's to say that some other misfortune wouldn't have befallen them? You have someone else completely independently fusing together souls and creation magic in Pandaemonium. What could possibly go wrong?

Irrespective of whether you fetishize their glamorous lifestyle or not, they're still just a society of people. Why are we so surprised that they are capable of developing dangerous and self-destructive applications for creation magic? Why would we believe their society to be intrinsically free of anger, fear, and despair? If they didn't have these experiences, I'd have a hard time believing that they were our ancestors.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

I think my question here is then what was it exactly the ancients did that warranted their extinction? They had something to strive for, the betterment of their planet. For all we know after that occurred they could have moved on to another planet to better that one as well. Some had doubts and existential problems but as we see via the side quests, they kind of resolve their vows and take the time to remember why they do this and express joy with it.

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And that’s a beautiful goal, one of many in the universe at the time the Ancients lived. As Lyth points out and as Meteion says so clearly, they’re is little separating them from the number of civilizations that end up singing the song of oblivion. The only connection, the only thing uniting all these different perspectives was one thing.

https://i.imgur.com/4QYCCmr.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nO8VD3E.jpg

Venat recognized the problem.

1. Inevitably all civilizations would face suffering in some form or another. Whether born from war, disease, or simply apathy, there was no escape.
2. Believing one could escape suffering would require either being willfully blind to reality, or worse, unprepared for the harsh truth.
3. Despair and hopelessness was the end result of being unprepared or unwilling to accept this truth, as one would either not be able to withstand the pain of existence, or give up entirely once they realize the futility of it all.
4. Meteion would not just be impossible to resist should one give in, she would be, in the eyes of those she kills, the one in the right. Death and oblivion would be preferred to life.

So the question to ask is not did the Ancients deserve to be destroyed, but would they be capable of finding meaning knowing their end was assured, knowing their paradise would end and knowing that they would suffer, that they had only been “spared it’s biting sting for a time.”

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Originally Posted by EaraGrace

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Which we know, many of them understand their end is assured, so much so they actually see life in death what with reincarnation. They acknowledge that many a time. They still found meaning in doing what they could, and when they were done they would retire, they would be fine with dying, and would have someone else take up their mantle. Regarding what Lyth says about how do we know some other misfortune may come along, yes of course but that’s my point. We can argue that for any society anywhere, that something *could* happen in the future. It doesn’t matter when or where it is. The problem here is when we bring up how they fought against said misfortune. They did what most anyone else would do, and something that even the scions themselves speak about against the final trial. They will fight against fate no matter the cost. Both Alphinaud and Alisaie state this. This is what the ancients did. They fought against their fate of being destroyed like the countless other civilizations that did crumble. The problem here is when Venat takes it upon herself to then play god, and decide no, they don’t get a chance to try and move on. and possibly combat Meteion all the way. But this just loops back to the original topic. When will we stop fighting? We won’t stop striving to better the world and it’s no different from the ancients so i’m just curious exactly what the message with the ancients is. What exactly did they do wrong to warrant all of this. We see with the other civilizations(outside of the dragons i suppose) that each one had some kind of major flaw that led to their downfall and they couldn’t recover.

We are the descendants of the people of Amaurot. It really doesn't matter if we're not as pretty as your fictional spouses with their luminescent eyes. It doesn't matter that our lives now involve more hardship than our ancestors did. We're one and the same, down to the same character flaws and the susceptibility towards making dumb mistakes.

'And so, as a show of respect to the last of us, I make this declaration. You will not end our journey! That is our answer! The answer of all lives of Etheirys, past and present!' Hope will ever counter despair, so long as you have the resilience to look for it. In Greek Mythology, 'Elpis' is the spirit of hope, and is also intrinsically linked with suffering.

And did you catch the transition in Emet's phrasing as he comes to terms with this fact? We went from 'You cannot be entrusted with our legacy,' to 'Do not squander it. The legacy I leave you.' If even he of all people can do it, so can you. You have the answer to your very own question.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

We are the descendants of the people of Amaurot. It really doesn't matter if we're not as pretty as your fictional spouses with their luminescent eyes. It doesn't matter that our lives now involve more hardship than our ancestors did. We're one and the same, down to the same character flaws and the susceptibility towards making dumb mistakes.

'And so, as a show of respect to the last of us, I make this declaration. You will not end our journey! That is our answer! The answer of all lives of Etheirys, past and present!' Hope will ever counter despair, so long as you have the resilience to look for it. In Greek Mythology, 'Elpis' is the spirit of hope, and is also intrinsically linked with suffering.

And did you catch the transition in Emet's phrasing as he comes to terms with this fact? We went from 'You cannot be entrusted with our legacy,' to 'Do not squander it. The legacy I leave you.' If even he of all people can do it, so can you. You have the answer to your very own question.

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Thats not the answer to my question though. It was argued long ago that the sundered and unsundered people are treated as two different people. This was where a lot of the arguments regarding the eden storyline stemmed from. People argued that gaia was her own person and had nothing to do with loghrif. We arent necessarily the descendents, we're fragments of them. My question though was what did they do to warrant meteion's wrath and venat's sundering. They fought just like us, they never stopped fighting. Emet is for more or less dead, we're basically the last resort he has lol. But youre logic is strange to me. You say that for the ancients any other misfortune or events could have harassed them, but is this not true for any society ever? Whats the difference between them and the sundered?I mean, they already did wipe themselves out in the other timeline, but then it was undone.