Was weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cilia
1. She did much more than incite panic when she engaged in civil war and sundered the world, so that personal belief of hers about the situation rings hollow.
2. She's acting as though Hermes is the only individual on the entire planet that knows about Dynamis. It's like saying Niels Bohr was the only way forward in Quantum Physics, when he had contemporaries he worked closely with to perfect mathematics and theories (such as Heisenburg, the guy credited with Quantum Mechanics). She's also acting like she doesn't have the time to seek his tutelage. Why not become a genuine pupil of his, very readily interested in Dynamis and the construction of Entelechies? He doesn't need to know why.
The premise of this thread is intrinsically flawed. Zodiark wasn't constructed to be a solution for Meteion. Just a solution for the observable phenomena for which we know she is ultimately the source. Zodiark was basically constructed to combat her shadow, nothing more, because the Convocation wasn't given the information about her.
As for the Rejoining mechanics, the crystals observed are deaspected which means they've lost their elemental polarity, rather than their umbral or astral one. They don't have less aether, just no element. That's what Y'shtola observes. The portion around Wilred was inconclusive ambient aether recordings. The researcher is musing, "Is it because of the primal(Odin)? Or something else?" When he stumbles about the young Ala Mhigan that has come down with a sudden case of traitor's blade in his gut. I'd surmise that the aetheric imbalance in calamities forces aspected aether to shift to fulfill the elemental strain placed on the Source by the primed Shard. Aether levels in the Source actually always rise, it's just a shift and disturbance can be noted, because the shifts are dramatic.
Think of it like the tide rushing out, suddenly decreasing the water level on a beach just prior to a tsunami. An astral aspected calamity likely caused an even more dramatic low tide, as it were.
*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better
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12-24-2021, 03:17 PMVyrerus
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12-24-2021, 03:50 PMEaraGrace1. Venat correctly surmised that Ancient society would struggle to accept an answer for the song oblivion. Acting rashly to tell people could’ve potentially caused the Final Days to succeed, or even after they had been halted, for there to be consequences that doomed all life. She told those she felt would be able to understand without jeopardizing the Convocations efforts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
2. He’s the only person who understands Dynamis. Those who even knew it existed were very few in number, even less still recognized it could be studied or that it had uses. Hermes was the only one who had both the knowledge, the motivation, and the resources to study it. And he was secretive about it. This isn’t someone studying quantum physics to bring about a new understanding of the universe for the good of all. This is someone studying quantum physics so that they can find the meaning of life and have a reason to move forward. He didn’t share anything with his colleagues, never submitted the concepts to the Bureau and made clear he didn’t want others to know. -
12-24-2021, 05:46 PMVyrerus1. Venat didn't give Ancient society a chance to answer the song of oblivion, because she didn't reveal it to them. She kept to vague platitudes, and then killed her entire race, after they'd put a bulwark in place to save and protect all life on Etheirys.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaraGrace
2. Wrong! The former researcher who created the Elpis flowers understood Dynamis to an extent. Meteion even refers to them as entelechies. Hermes implies that there are yet still other entelechies, but Meteion is, "The first possessed of free will." He is also 100% candid an open about why he created Meteion when asked why by Emet-selch, though he does not delve into details at the time. -
12-24-2021, 06:46 PMVeloran
Frankly the more I think about Venat's solution, the more problems I have with it.
Venat sundered the Ancients because they lacked the ability to manipulate Dynamis, and because she considered their society self-destructive, so she killed them in order to bring about the advent of a people and state of being that she considered more worthy of living. This is in fact the exact motivation of Emet-Selch and the Ascians, simply flipped on it's head to favor the sundered rather than the unsundered. Now on one level I think there's an element of parallelism at play that makes for excellent storytelling, but on another Venat's portrayal often seems so black-and-white that I'm really not sure if this was even the intent. Either way I can hardly see it as anything except the peak of hypocrisy. -
12-25-2021, 02:38 AMRulakirI'll give you even more to consider. So, if we want to accept that Venat wanted the WoL's future to come to pass, and the WoL is 8x rejoined, then that means she created more than double the reflections necessary. Why? As fodder to the Ascians. People are quick to criticize the Ancients for making sacrifices to Zodiark while Hydaelyn literally created 8 additional shards to sacrifice to the Ascians so the WoL's future would occur. This is also the same woman whose contingency plan was to abandon the remaining shards, but she loves and protects life!Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
Her death count is unprecedented in the name of 'saving' Etheirys, worse than all antagonists combined save for Meteion. The best part is that because they went with a bootstrap paradox, the WoL gave her the playbook to follow. Feels good knowing that my character is an accomplice to all the atrocities that have happened over the last 12k years. *sigh* -
12-25-2021, 02:45 AMMikkoAkureA reborn Amaurot would not be the same Amaurot that came before it and would revolve around Zodiark. I'm not sure why people keep forgetting that point. The actions and attitude of the Ascians make it apparent that it would change from a society devoted to the Star to one devoted to their living god. The past they craved is lost forever outside of time shenanigans. Venat's actions make more sense when you realize what a post-Final Days Amaurot would actually be like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
Additionally, as mentioned before, Zodiark would have just put a band-aid on the problem since Meteion was speeding up the end of the universe. While one of Venat's two includes stopping it at its source.
But regardless of anyone's personal opinions on the story or character motivations are, that's the angle the writers went with and even a memory-restored, untempered Emet-Selch chooses ours and Venat's side over Elidibus and aids us in fundamentally destroying the whole Ascian plan and ruining the chance at a restored Amaurot and Zodiark. -
12-25-2021, 02:47 AMQT_Melon
Again,
I think where story editing would have helped a lot more was cutting down some of the Labyrinthos stuff to show that Venat truly did exhaust her options may have helped this out. Especially with janky montage.
Having some crazy lab accident, with witnesses saying Venat was present, and looking over at doggo...makes me think of that old meme with the guy looking at the golden retriever with that "oh you..."
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/.../390/ohyou.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/.../390/ohyou.jpg
You could just pretty much substitute Argos and Hytho's faces there :P
I mean sure later, they may expand upon her having that supposed conversation with Hythlodaeus who comes off as probably the most easily reasoned people to be around. Which is why Emet and Hythlo are like a buddy cop duo. But as current standings go, we haven't been given that moment to see if she could have convinced them otherwise.
Rather than have a conversation with random Etherians out on the street, to "I'M GONNA WRECK IT" (Sundering decision). The stakes of seeing the new life and what the plans for said new life should have been a high stakes moment. I think it was a missed opportunity since that discussion was always background fodder and showing said life would have probably made it more personal and the dilemma more in our face.
I know people were trying various reasonings to get people to stop these kinds of discussions "because you're being antagonistic with the story" or "you're not paying attention" to "it's just a video game" - but let's face it. There's some problems with presenting the story to push certain stakes - or didn't quite help various "camps" move to be more objectionable.
I think personally and just seeing that from others who have played the MSQ - that the conclusion before we go back to our time just had some missed opportunities along the way. I am just pointing out what would have helped out. I didn't feel that Zodiark was a long term plan that would have worked out. I think Venat's plan (despite the story forcing that) would work out given the timeline and circumstances surrounding. (I can't say it would have if say the Ascians DIDN'T start up Calamities and rejoinings). Meaning that it took both of them to oppose each other to a certain point to reforge our character into a being that COULD beat Endsinger.
Basically - Venat sunders, no Ascians mess with the world - we go in blindly ignorant of the threat even if we can feel it. I think would have been defeat.
Venat sunders, Ascians keep tinkering with events that while ends up in loss of life, re-forges us and gives us back some of our powers. We eventually get to understand the tragedies that happened in the past and armed with that knowledge we did defeat Endsinger.
We know, the story is done in terms of MSQ, what happened happened - but I don't think it will cause players to not debate it. I think EVEN with my suggestions - there would probably be some debate -but I think likely LESS of it. -
12-25-2021, 02:47 AMKizuyaKatogamiAnd as we’ve seen, especially with this expansion, the writers have been incredibly flawed on many things. Also, they didn’t seem wholly devoted to Zodiark, as even whilst being fully tempered by him the Convocation was still skeptical on sacrifices and were in disagreement over it. So clearly they still had their own will through everything. They still were thinking about the star even after being tempered. Even Lahabrea says it lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
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12-25-2021, 03:02 AMMikkoAkureI don't believe the Ascians were fully tempered, since they weren't exactly slaves to Him like how many other tempered are, but they still refer to Zodiark as "master" and "one true god". And yes, Lahabrea says that Hydaelyn needs to be "burned out so the star can live", but he also talks about how "that which shattered will be made anew... and the one true god will come again", mentioning Zodiark but nothing about his civilization. Still, Lahabrea seemed to be one of the more maverick Ascians since in other cases he seemed to suggest he had his own goals separate from the others, but all that got him was being called an idiot by his coworkers after he got too ambitious, failed, and died.Quote:
Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami
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12-25-2021, 04:48 AMVeloranAside from the fact that the Ancient story probably wasn't written back when he said that, "that which shattered will be made anew" can easily be read as rejoining the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
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12-25-2021, 05:44 AMYianKutkuNo, the former researcher did not. Hermes referred to Elpis flowers as "a happy accident".Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
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12-25-2021, 02:32 PMVyrerusHermes's exact dialogue on the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
Most discoveries in history are, "Happy Accidents." Understanding comes later. This is the root of all Ancients discovering and understanding Dynamis. This means and proves that there are other Ancients who know as much about it as and BEFORE Hermes. Sorry, but them's the breaks.
http://c.tenor.com/O9RdQGAKOX0AAAAC/...-ku-konchu.gif -
12-25-2021, 06:24 PMYianKutkuNo, the dialogue literally says it is a "happy accident". It says nothing about the former researcher then looking into the specifics of dynamis, or that they did anything other than create the flowers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
If we are operating entirely on what is said rather than what we think is implied, then there is no evidence that the former researcher was even aware of dynamis, or by what mechanism the flowers change colours. -
12-25-2021, 06:35 PMGartenI agree with youQuote:
Originally Posted by Loggos
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12-25-2021, 06:51 PMVyrerusHermes:"And though its existence had long been theorized we had no proof until the flower's serendipitous creation."Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
This is the important line. While the flower was created on accident, its mechanisms proved a theory that had already been postulated. Like the Hannish theorize about it as Akasa, the Ancients first theorized about it as Dynamis, and the Elpis flowers validated their theory.
By the act of creating them, an understanding of Dynamis was gained. Hermes uses this line and the line prior to explain how they discovered it. The flowers are tangible, and are an accidental prototype for all Entelechies. By studying the accident that lead to their creation a method to manipulate Dynamis was gained.
While it is not a direct line, it is fact based on how more advanced Entelechies, namely Meteion, came to be created on purpose. Then, note the underlined, We, in Hermes' statement. He was not the only one researching the theory, and he was also not the one who achieved the accidental breakthrough.
Again. There are more Ancients than just Hermes who know and understand Dynamis. Explicitly. They just aren't named. -
12-25-2021, 07:14 PMYianKutkuAnd neither Emet-Selch nor Hythlodaeus had ever heard of dynamis, nor entelechies. Venat had heard of it, but also admits that she knows very little about it apart from the basic concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
Hythlodaeus assumes that the Elpis flower and the concept of dynamis had been submitted to the bureau before he joined it, but given he still had never heard of it, that means either Hythlodaeus was mistaken (and the Elpis flower was never submitted at all), or the bureau is so disorganized that such a "breakthrough" discovery was left to languish in obscurity. (My suspicion is that when dynamis was first observed, it was considered a trivial and unimportant matter, since according to the game literally no other person other than Hermes had ever managed to send a negative emotion to the Elpis flowers, until we came along. So the only colour changes noted were the different types of happiness, and any negative emotions were considered outliers and dismissed.)
Thus, the net effect is no matter how many other Ancients knew about dynamis, they were evidently forgotten, and so there is no way to contact them anyway. Which is the same result as no other Ancients knowing about dynamis that the group (Emet-Selch, Hythlodaeus, Venat) can consult about it other than Hermes. For the purposes of narrative, "only Hermes knows about dynamis" is true if the other people who know and understand dynamis (ie enough to create entelechies and influence dynamis) are all unavailable. -
12-25-2021, 08:47 PMVyrerusGiven that the Bureau of the Architect is constantly dealing with new creations, it's not unreasonable to think that older creations would be left unexamined by newcomers due to time constraints. It's not like a bureaucrat who signs on at a large depot or storehouse is going to be able to suddenly be able to account for everything that's ever been stored on the shelves there. They're too busy signing in triplicate the 800 concepts for new sharks and what not.Quote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
Through the course of this questline we also learn that the Convocation members are all specialists in different fields, so it's no surprise that an Emet-selch specialist doesn't know about a mysterious energy that almost no one has the means or desire to manipulate. Though it is a narrative surprise because he's a big deal to us, but it's ultimately an emotional conflation.
As for there being no way to contact the others who know about Dynamis... it's an idea that has no strength to stand under scrutiny. Elpis is a facility with rules and records. The Flower was created there, recorded there, and researched there. The names of the researchers would be in their records. The data on the flower would also be in their records. This takes place in the same expansion where our very scholarly compatriots have zero qualms about searching through a library containing more books than we can conceptualize, so Venat and our Ancient party shouldn't have qualms about attempting the same. The reality is that the narrative has to blinker itself and try to get us to pretend and believe with it that Hermes is all there is, so that the situation forced by the time loop appears even more inescapable. So it's, "For narrative purposes, we can't go into actual detail about the research methods, researchers, or specifics about Dynamis and its discovery. For narrative purposes we have to keep it vague, or this narrative comes apart at the seams." It's a weakness they could have easily dodged this by just having the lines from Hermes state that it's his personal discovery and the flower is his creation and he has yet to submit it to the bureau. Or something like that. Or that all his fellow Dynamis researchers gave themselves back to the star.
But the narrative didn't do that. It told us that there were other Dynamis researchers, but then didn't name them, and airplane spoon fed us lines about, "Only Hermes." -
12-25-2021, 08:51 PMEaraGrace1. You are leaving out two cutscenes worth of context, both of which directly contradict this point. She approached both the Convocation and her fellow Amaurotines to convince them to face the song of oblivion. This is despite what many people here believe, that Her intent was always to begin the Sundering, which would make Her actions nonsensical. No, She did try to convince others to take a different path, and She was unable. Both in the cutscene in Anyder and in the cutscene following our departure from Elpis, we see Her arguments rejected in favor of placing faith in Zodiark, and in the belief that the world before the Final Days could be returned to, one that they believed would be without sorrow and suffering. That is clearly not an answer. And thus, to prevent mankind from being forever at the mercy of an all powerful deity that could solve whatever strife or struggle they faced, She sundered the world and Him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
2. "To an extent" is carrying this line of logic, and I'll be frank not very far. The Elpis flower, as was stated in the cutscene you posted, was an accident. The underlying mechanisms that govern Dynamis were not understood by its creator as far as we know. As it stands, one, and only one, person has shown understanding of how to manipulate and utilize Dynamis, as well as create Entelechies with wills of their own, that being Hermes. And he only did so by his own admission out of necessity to create a being that could traverse the great expanse. There is no evidence that beyond the flower and the Meteions, entelechies can be found or even existed. The head of the Bureau of Concepts and a member of the Convocation needed to be explained the concept as well as the very idea of Entelechies, and there are no existing species with the ability to manipulate Dynamis. The only ones known are the Elpis flower and Meteion.
In the words of Hermes
And even then, to know of something is one thing, its another to understand it. Venat was in the former herself when we meet Her in Elpis.Quote:
'Tis a truly esoteric thing, known to but a select few scholars.
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12-25-2021, 09:05 PMVyrerus1. She did not reveal the truth about Meteion to the Ancients. She expected them to give up Zodiark with no knowledge that Meteion was the cause that necessitated his existence in the first place. She asked them to give up a tangible god that had saved and restored the world. With no proper incentive.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaraGrace
2. The only ones shown are Meteion and the Elpis flower. In the same breath Hermes alludes to other, "ordinary" entelechies by telling Meteion that she is no ordinary entelechy. The narrative suffers from telling us too much, and from hinting at other areas and people it does not/will not show. It really wouldn't have been much of a hurdle for them to not undercut their own story by not doing that. It hurts to see. -
12-25-2021, 09:22 PMEaraGrace1. I don't believe She asked that however. She asked for them not to sacrifice new lives to regain old ones, and to accept suffering as a constant companion as a part of how life is, but no where did She ask them to give up Zodiark. Only when it was clear they did not intend to remember the Final Days and its impact, did She move to sunder him. In a hypothetical where they didn't endeavour to bring back all of those they lost by sacrificing more, I do not believe She would have Sundered the world in the way she did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
2. I mean sure, they did not explicitly tell us no other Entelechies exist, but based on what we have been told their are a few facts we can discern.
1. No Entelechies but Meteion exist with a will of their own
2. Hytholodaeus knows of no submitted concept for an Entelechy and all but a handful of scholars know of Dynamis
3. No Entelechies have survived except for Meteion and the Elpis flower
4. The Elpis flower was an accident, had no practical applications, and Dynamis as a whole is an energy the Ancients cannot manipulate
I think its safe to assume from these facts that Hermes is one of a kind in regards to his work on Dyanmis, as well the only one with a known interest in exploring it. -
12-25-2021, 10:21 PMMikkoAkureIf there were other researchers who knew about Dynamis, the story doesn’t care for them as it only established Fandaniel’s importance and not any other’s. It could be that the role he specifically plays in figuring out enough of the mechanisms behind the Final Days to see how to fix it with summoning is crucial. Or that this is a piece of writing and condensing the actions that would realistically be part of a group to an individual is a writing tool in order to prevent the narrative from becoming bloated and confusing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
Still, Venat is more in tune with Elpis and Hermes than Emet-Selch is and she was on the Convocation prior to Emet-Selch so it stands to reason that her saying that Hermes needs to become Fandaniel carries some weight.
Regardless of what Venat could have told people about Meteion or Dynamis, it wouldn’t change the point that they had nothing they could have done except summon Zodiark to delay the Final Days. Zodiark being summoned is still vital to the safety of the star. It’s what comes after that was the sticking point.
And to stop Meteion as we did required convincing the leadership of a nation, 12,000 years worth of crystallized aether from atop the Lifestream, the ability to manipulate Dynamis, and empathy/emotional intelligence. The Ancients might have been able to get 1 or 2 of those at best, but not all of them. -
12-25-2021, 11:19 PMYianKutkuHythlodaeus is not a simple new recruit to the Bureau of the Architect. He is literally the chief of the Bureau of the Architect. If the bureau has no on-boarding process for the new head of the entire department, and there is no way to easily look up past records, then the bureau is a terribly-organized place that has even more unfortunate implications for the systems the Amaurotines have put into place to play god for the planet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
I'm actually being generous to Hythlodaeus here, in that I'm attributing his ignorance of Elpis flowers due to systemic issues, rather than because Hythlodaeus is a bad leader. If the only records anyone can conceivably find about the people who know about Elpis flowers and dynamis are buried deep within the Bureau of the Architect records, that Hythlodaeus never even considered looking through, then they might as well not be there at all.
Emet-Selch sounded very affronted that not only did he know nothing about dynamis, but nobody told him about it. If this is supposed to be Emet-Selch being rational, then that means he should have been told about it, either as a general member of the Convocation or in his capacity as Emet-Selch. And since he hasn't been told, that means there is nobody capable of telling him up until Hermes.Quote:
Through the course of this questline we also learn that the Convocation members are all specialists in different fields, so it's no surprise that an Emet-selch specialist doesn't know about a mysterious energy that almost no one has the means or desire to manipulate. Though it is a narrative surprise because he's a big deal to us, but it's ultimately an emotional conflation.
If this is supposed to be Emet-Selch being irrational, well, that answers the question in the OP as well, since this is not a person I would be willing to join, lest his petty grumpiness lead to even more dangerous situations.
I'd like to mention that this is the same Elpis where the head of the facility created a familiar utilizing a little-known and heretofore non-useful aspect of the universe, made several copies of that familiar and networked them together, then sent those copies out into the universe, and told nobody about it until we confronted him after we managed to find a witness. There are no records about Meteion; Hermes declined to submit the concept to the Bureau of the Architect because Meteion is allegedly "still in testing" (which is fine), while also sending Meteia into the greater universe (which is not fine). This contravenes the stated rules of Elpis, and yet nobody really cared about Hermes doing this stuff until it all went pear-shaped.Quote:
As for there being no way to contact the others who know about Dynamis... it's an idea that has no strength to stand under scrutiny. Elpis is a facility with rules and records. The Flower was created there, recorded there, and researched there. The names of the researchers would be in their records. The data on the flower would also be in their records.
Well, not precisely the stated Rules As Written, which limits the scope of new creations regarding Etheirys. But I feel that it's certainly contravening Rules As Intended, since if a creation has not gone through enough testing to be let loose onto Etheirys, it should follow that it has also not gone through enough testing to be let loose onto the universe in which Etheirys resides.
The statement that Ancient Amaurotine society has enough rules and records that being able to find obscure former researchers or their recorded notes is possible, much less simple, is the one that does not stand under scrutiny, if taken in context with what we're also shown in the course of the narrative. Clearly to the Amaurotines, the rules are enforced through decorum, and if someone were to break the rules, they'd just get a disapproving glance and snide comment at most. This does not strike me as a system that would be conscientious enough to have meticulous and easily accessible records. -
12-26-2021, 01:13 AMKozhAnd frankly it's quite a ludicrous idea that out of the current Ancients, only Hermes know about it. You mean to tell us that a research-based nation such as the Amaurotine doesn't do anything about dynamis once Elpis flower was created? I mean, yeah it's probably not as studied as aether considering the impractical application of it (like how most researches are in real life), but to see how nobody in Elpis facility know about dynamis is painful to read.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaraGrace
Speaking of dynamis, it's funy some people say that "the ancients doesn't understand how dynamis works, the sundered do", while the game never show us how the sundered able to control it besides "pray hard enough" and hope for the best. Being sensitive to dynamis is a double aged-sword. On one hand, sundered being can manipulate it to some extent. Yet on the other hand, it also made them easier to turn into blasphemies (or being unmade, in ultima thule case). Using this rule, I find it real cheap that the WoL and Scions don't immediately turn into nothing once they set foot into Ultima Thule, a domain purely made of despair-dynamis that Meteion amassed from several stars for more than 12k years. Oh well, I guess that's the benefit of being a protagonist. -
12-26-2021, 02:16 AMRulakir
I don't think we're ever going to arrive at a consensus on Hermes. Even if we collectively agreed that he was the one and only dynamis expert in all of Ancient society, there still isn't sufficient evidence his expertise played a part in the Final Days.
The post-Elpis 'Cliff Notes' version of the Final Days also left out a lot of crucial details. It doesn't help that it's from Venat's POV either, who is the character whose choices we're debating. It's an unfaithful retelling of events from a biased POV.
The Anyder cutscene in ShB makes little sense given the context of EW. Venat->Hydaelyn is more akin to Ysayle->Shiva than Elidibus->Zodiark. The person addressing her at the end made it sound like once she became the heart that would be the end of her, she also spoke as someone who was completely unaware of the sundering. The problem with that (aside from the implication Venat never confided her plans even to those she brought 'into the fold' to help create Hydaelyn) is either you believe Venat never intended to sunder the Ancients (which is a hard sell given that she would've been created with that ability) or she always intended to because if she didn't then the WoL's future wouldn't exist. One of the arguments I've seen presented here is that she couldn't do anything differently because she believed the WoL the best chance to defeat Meteion.
As for the rest, I just fundamentally disagree. I disagree with the premise that the Ancients were always doomed no matter what, I did not find the Ra-la world as 'proof' of that given they were fine until Meteion's meddling. Since that was the case for several of the worlds, I'm far more inclined to believe Meteion was the problem rather than their way of life. I disagree that the Ancients couldn't have come together in a crisis because they did. Whether or not you agree with Zodiark*, it was still an overwhelming collective effort on their part to stop an apocalypse, one which the sundered were unlikely to achieve.
* Speaking of which, I think the fact that the Final Days were warping their creation magics to conjure monstrosities that were killing them has been too easily brushed aside. I'm not comfortable judging anyone on their reaction to what could be the plot to a horror film. You do what you have to do to survive and anyone would jump at the first solution to making that situation stop.
So, what does that leave us with? Dynamis. This, in my opinion, is the true point of contention. Whether or not the Ancients could have ever found a way to deal with it. Ironically, Venat says, "Nothing is impossible. This, I have always believed." Yet, that seemingly didn't carry over into her feelings towards her own people's ability to change or figure out a way to defeat Meteion.
The rest is just pure speculation. We don't know that there were no blueprints of Meteion anywhere because nobody ever investigated Hermes and nobody knew to even look for such a thing. Incidentally, I suspect that Hythlodaeus was being very generous with Hermes about him not having submitted a concept yet because they were friends and he thought him trustworthy. We don't know that the Ancients themselves needed to face Meteion. Given that 75% of them were willing to sacrifice themselves to save the star, if asked some may have been willing to be sundered and trained to defeat her assuming that no one but Hermes was capable of creating a dynamis-based construct to do it. Plus, if Shinryu can make it to her, then so could another primal and Etheirys had plenty of aether to spare to work towards making that happen.
I could go on and on and I'm not looking for my ideas to be individually critiqued, that doesn't matter. What matters is that there were infinite possibilities and we only got to see the one that not only resulted in the Ancient civilization being destroyed, but 8 reflections of Etheirys in the process to get to where we are now. Personally, that's not a choice I would have or could have made. It doesn't make Venat compelling in a "she did what others could not" sort of way either, it makes me thoroughly dislike her because she never gave anyone a chance and her reasons for not doing so were just not good enough. Frankly, I don't think they ever could be when we're discussing the lives of billions of innocent people.
Lastly, I think allowing the WoL to express displeasure would've gone a long way. One of my biggest gripes is that after all this our characters are strong-armed into a 12k year 'full circle' bond with her, complete with emotional cutscenes and only positive, reaffirming dialog options, which did not sit well with me at all. -
12-26-2021, 02:33 AMSlatersevThat's not really accurate, the first note explicitly says they had long stopped finding meaning in anything and didn't know what to do well before she arrived. Her question caused the cascade, but they weren't doing "fine" at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulakir
Which goes back to what Urianger says himself, NONE of the places she found were doing well, her arrival had negative effects and helped push them over, but the ones that hadn't already wiped themselves out were for one reason or another already on the edge. -
12-26-2021, 03:19 AMKozhUH, the people at the New World? Meracydia? Other smaller continent? During the flashback, they never say that it spreads outside of the three great continent (eorzea, ilsabard, far east).Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
In the end though, what the Ironworks did was pretty much the same as what the game keep opposing: An individual/a group of people decide the fate of the star by themselves. Imagine you were born and live in a post apocalypse world. You struggle to live everyday but keep (as EW love to put it) to 'forge ahead'. Then one day someone came and said "hey, we do have a plan to save the world, but by erasing it from existence. I hope you're cool with that."
They never said it dissipated, nor do we know if it's possible to considering that it's light aspected (stagnancy).Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
Ah yes, ARR, where nearly all the villains are morning saturday cartoon level of evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
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12-26-2021, 01:47 PMHappyHubrisEmet's plans was still better than Venat's, which was too give up and evacuate only one sundered shard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleretic
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12-26-2021, 02:22 PMMikkoAkureThe people of the New World and Meracydia may not have been effected, but they're also not very high-density populated areas. We don't know much about the Far West, but we know that Meracydia has already been in a post-apocalyptic situation for 6,000 years. In the end, their timeline wasn't deleted, it was just a possibility. Also, I don't remember anywhere saying that the original summonings of Zodiark were a bad thing. If Zodiark wasn't summoned in the first place, then the world would have ended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozh
You're answering my assumption with another assumption. The scene where we learn all this shows people walking around and mourning amongst the dead so I was of the mind that it still works as a normal gas. I'm not sure why you would be against the idea of the Ironworks doing something to fix the past if they lived in a world where the Calamity was still happening and continuing to happen and Black Rose will never fade so I don't know how that helps your argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozh
It's still a part of the canon of the story and most importantly, the beginning where everyone is introduced to these characters. It's one thing for the story to evolve and to add nuance, but it's another to introduce inconsistencies and altogether pretend that the whole beginning of the story never happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kozh
In this case, we know why Zodiark was summoned and we know the Ascians had a good reason for doing so. At the same time, we know that they were tempered, are told specifically by one of their leaders that they were tempered, and that it has turned the previous logic-minded "protectors of the star" into zealous ghosts who twirl their mustaches and laugh as they wreak destruction and cause genocides. That makes the whole thing more tragic and the writing better than the alternative. -
12-26-2021, 02:34 PMVyrerusAt the time we are sent to Elpis, within that trip to the past, we were sent to a precise day by the auspices ofQuote:
Originally Posted by YianKutku
the scriptwriterfate. While we meet Emet-selch and Hythlodaeus, and we know the offices they hold, we know no big details about the duties of said offices nor how long either of them have held those offices. If you've ever been elected, promoted, or placed into a leadership position to fill someone else's shoes, then you would realize that you don't get the 4-1-1 on everything in your domain on day 1. Sometimes not even year 1, depending on the gravity of the office. Then there's also the fact that in a lot of jobs, leadership position or otherwise, there's a lot to the job but there are operations and necessities that are so infrequent as to be forgotten. Even by veterans. Compare and contrast with a submarine captain. The captain has to know every system of the boat in a general sense, but has to delegate specific responsibilities to lower officers who then carry out actually working everything with their different divisions. Hythlodaeus could be the most competent Chief of the Bureau of the Architect that the Amaurotines ever had, and he probably still wouldn't know the skinny on each every creation ever submitted. It's a huge operation.
Mmm, don't misunderstand me. I do not mean it is an emotional conflation for Emet-selch. I meant it is one for the player. "Wow he doesn't know, I'm shocked! This must be a really mysterious force." Something in that vein. But as we see in this portion of the MSQ, the Convocation don't even work together. Later on in Pandaemonium we get even more of a suggestion that they are akin to the Sharlayan Forum, and they don't work together till they call a meeting to do just that. It still makes sense that no one told Emet, because Dynamis does not pertain to any of the Convocation's jobs at this point in time. Serves him right too, just standing there not calling up Grani or anything, monologuing into memory erasure. SMH
I'll point out, as you have pointed out, Hermes is the leader of Elpis. Leaders often abuse positions of authority to bend and break rules. Subordinates do not call them out for fear of loss of position or loss of potential increase in rank or pay. It's not really a commentary on how lax rules are in Elpis, but moreso that Hermes is beholden to no one there. There is no one who can, or wishes to, enforce the rules on him.
Also, I'll state that it is merely plot contrivance that the researchers are kept obscure. Like I said earlier, it would have been better if the lines were written to be that Dynamis was Hermes' personal discovery without mentioning anyone else. However vaguely they were mentioned. If I'm supposed to embrace the vagaries of Venat/Hydaelyn retroactively, then I am going to embrace the vagaries about other segments of the plot too. And if they are spiny and shifty and questionable, then I will question them and point them out. This is the case here. Hermes is not the only Ancient well versed in Dynamis. -
12-26-2021, 06:22 PMVeloranI have to agree with Rulakir that the Amaurotines and the Ralaians aren't well comparable to each other. The Ralaians were seemingly all about personal comfort and perfection, making their lives as easy and idyllic as possible. Meanwhile Amaurot is all about research, discovery, learning and creation. The mysteries and challenges of the universe are undoubtedly vast, and as we see they themselves were still confined to their homeworld, ignorant even of energies that made up the majority of reality. They could have spent uncountable eons learning about the wider world, incorporating elements of it into their creations, or even fixing universal problems like the idea of heat-death. Frankly, even if we assume that a descent into self-destruction was inevitable, I'm not so sure that denying them that choice in the future by destroying them in the present is all that reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slatersev
Moreover, we should probably remember here that the Amaurotines weren't alone on Etheirys. There were other peoples (presumably Ancients) living separately from them, in their own civilizations and cultures. Can we really assume these people were all heading towards the same end? -
12-27-2021, 02:40 AMRulakirWell, then Etheirys is still doomed and all Venat did was delay the inevitable. It also means all the shards are doomed, possibly sooner rather than later since time flows differently on them. What then? Do they rejoin or just die off in their separate reality? What happens next time there isn't someone to make the executive decision that civilization no longer has a future and needs to be 'reset' for life to continue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Slatersev
This is one of the problems I have with EW's messaging. They on one hand treat everything as inevitable, but on the other hand imply there's some choice in the matter (unless it's the Ancients). The sundering isn't going to prevent Etheirys from suffering the fates of the other stars even if it's not through "perfection". Even the Ra-la state in their notes that they were once "lesser" and "sought purpose", so similar to the sundered. -
12-27-2021, 03:10 AMEaraGraceBut I’d argue that messaging is exactly the point. While I recognize my interpretation may differ as this is subjective, one of the core questions Endwalker asks, in my reading of it, is how we grapple with the inevitable. How we come to the terms with the finite nature of existence and our own place in it. Or in other words, it asks:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rulakir
Which Venat answersQuote:
Venat: Why, given life, are they meant to suffer. To die…
And in that is the key to overcoming the song of oblivion. Not in finding solutions to all of life’s ills, but to know that our end is assured and yet still wanting to see tomorrow, of fighting against the inevitable for that one extra day. The Dragons scoff at the answer, the Ea mock it, and the Omicrons don’t understand it. And in the end they were swallowed by despair.Quote:
Venat: As fragmented, imperfect beings, yours is a never-ending quest. A quest to find your purpose, knowing your end is assured. To find the strength to continue, when all strength has left you. To find joy, even as darkness descends…
… And amidst deepest despair, light everlasting.
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12-27-2021, 06:37 AMMikkoAkureThe Amaurotines technically already self-destructed. Just not in the exact same way as others we’ve seen through Meteion did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
One of their number gets upset with his society, plays with forces he barely understands and are outside his control, goes mad at the revelation they brought him, and decides to test all of humanity with an apocalypse before wiping his own memory and that of one of the leaders of the account.
Then the leaders of the society when faced with the threat delete chunks of their remaining population to stop it through summoning a god, and when they decide to sacrifice the life they created to get their society back, a splinter group of their society breaks reality, effectively bringing the remaining population of their race to 4, 2 of whom are technically gods or partial gods now.
As I’ve said before, the future that would face the Ancient civilization if they came back would no longer be the same as it would be before, and would probably more closely resemble Meteion’s projection of Ra La. They all come back to life and now have a living god. Do you think their zealotry or their god will just go away? It would change the civilization completely. -
12-27-2021, 07:37 AMSlatersevAlso when Xande came back to life threw cloning it came with him concluding life didn't matter because everything ends and that leads to his Covenant with the Cloud of Darkness.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
Who's to say some of the Ancients who made the sacrifice if they were brought back wouldn't reach the same conclusion?
That's not even getting into the idea that we don't know how the Anicents would have reacted to the idea that new life was sacrificed without there consent to bring them back. Like I have said this before but does Hythlodaeus seem like the type who would be pleased or ambivalent to find out his best friend committed mass sacrifice on innocent people without a say to bring him back?
New and likely permeant fissures in there society was guaranteed even under the best case scenario because it involves a permeant new god that Tempered there leaders and a bunch of revived dead people who would have very varying reactions to being brought back to life and what it took to make that happen. -
12-27-2021, 08:01 AMVeloranPoorly, in my opinion. That speech of hers you quoted is very poetic, and also completely meaningless in the context of the circumstances at hand and what she is doing. Just from the outset, nobody is perfect, none of the races we encounter including the Ancients, they're all on that "never-ending quest", and yet the Ancients are supposed by Venat to be a hopeless dead-end that must be replaced by the Sundered. The Dragons are also nigh-immortal and incredibly powerful. But Midgardsormr wasn't "swallowed by despair". He wanted to live, and he wanted his children to live, and the race as a whole clearly want to live. With that in mind, one really needs to question whether Venat's answer - More specifically her actions - Were at all justifiable or even reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by EaraGrace
Rather, they were destroyed. Specifically by Venat. If Hermes was the madman who created the test, Venat was the madwoman who simply went along with it and judged them failures to be extinguished.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
Let's say this is something of an erroneous characterization of events.Quote:
Then the leaders of the society when faced with the threat delete chunks of their remaining population to stop it through summoning a god, and when they decide to sacrifice the life they created to get their society back,
The Ancient's right to self-determination supersedes Venat's opinion on their worthiness to live.Quote:
As I’ve said before, the future that would face the Ancient civilization if they came back would no longer be the same as it would be before, and would probably more closely resemble Meteion’s projection of Ra La. They all come back to life and now have a living god. Do you think their zealotry or their god will just go away? It would change the civilization completely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slatersev
They do and we do, respectively.Quote:
we don't know how the Anicents would have reacted to the idea that new life was sacrificed without there consent to bring them back
https://i.imgur.com/LlapAAF.png -
12-27-2021, 09:14 AMMikkoAkureI don't think that's supposed to be the idea the writers were trying to get across. Because of the limitations of the medium, unless they decided to make a whole essay on Amaurotine culture and the histories surrounding the events, we have to take it at faith that the characters present in the situation are taking actions that make sense to them in context. The rest is on you, the reader/viewer/player to accept it. Part of analyzing the actions of fictional characters is realizing that they're meant to be more than what are presented and the form is limited in how much the writer can get across. Venat doesn't seem to be meant to be portrayed as a "madwoman" as you describe. The writers' efforts won't convince everyone, which is where we get debates like this. It would be one thing if this were an actual written history of events, and even then people debate on the actions of people in history, but this is a fictional story where the writers were trying to deliver a specific story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
That's what happened though. I don't know how you can spin that otherwise. Half of their surviving population and then half again were used as fuel for a god of their making. They were willing sacrifices, but they were still used and spent in order to stop the catastrophe that one of their own caused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
It would be something different entirely if it was just Venat, but it wasn't just her though. We may never know how many supporters she had, but she still had supporters whom she told the full story to and they agreed with her. Between the many unknown deaths caused by the Final Days themselves and the vast swathes of population sacrificed to Zodiark, there probably weren't too many left compared to the pre-apocalypse number. Yet there were still enough present who supported and were sacrificed for Hydaelyn's own summoning that Hydaelyn had the power to fight back against another god who had over half the surviving population sacrificed to it and win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Veloran
The whole point of a lot of the exposition on the Final Days is that not all of their society agreed on Zodiark's "3rd event" and enough of their number to make an impact said "no" and without that, Hydaelyn wouldn't exist. Just like you can't paint the lore forum users with the same brush, you can't paint the Ancients either. -
12-27-2021, 10:50 AMVeloranWhat a writer intends and what they communicate is often not the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
The Scions were "used and spent" as well, and we call them heroes. I fail to see why we should take the Ancient's plans as being self-destructive, when for all intents and purposes we do the same.Quote:
That's what happened though. I don't know how you can spin that otherwise. Half of their surviving population and then half again were used as fuel for a god of their making. They were willing sacrifices, but they were still used and spent in order to stop the catastrophe that one of their own caused.
We see just twelve other people in on her plan - To the degree she even let them in on it, anyway. But these people are effectively all dropped from the plot at the end of Elpis.Quote:
It would be something different entirely if it was just Venat, but it wasn't just her though.
Really? Because from what the records in the Akademia suggest, they didn't know the full story. And maybe if Venat had enlightened everyone else with the full story, things would never have degraded into the Final Days to begin with.Quote:
whom she told the full story
Hydaelyn's sundering power effectively hard-countered Zodiark. Besides, are you forgetting that Elidibus ejected himself from Zodiark's heart to try and make peace with Venat? And that without someone controlling him Zodiark is nothing but a willess, immobile husk? Trying to rationalize Hydaelyn's power, and the number of supporters Venat had from that is fruitless.Quote:
that Hydaelyn had the power to fight back against another god who had over half the surviving population sacrificed to it and win.
A bit ironic, considering that's exactly what Venat did.Quote:
Just like you can't paint the lore forum users with the same brush, you can't paint the Ancients either.
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12-27-2021, 02:40 PMKozh
Just my two cents, it's not like I don't find the 3rd sacrifice to be a bad thing. Because sacrificing new generation just to bring back the past does sound like an evil path (though funny enough, for all we know maybe the new generation doesn't mind about that lol). But my problem is the double standard.
Hydaelyn, despite of her own word that what she does isn't unforgiven, is portrayed as the "tragic hero" that's actually right, and we don't get a choice to disagree with her (no, the boat scene isn't disagreeing with her). Remember when people get mad because our WoL agrees to emet last request in ShB? Yet now they belittle anyone else who dare critize hydaelyn. Why? Because her choice benefits the sundered being.
Yes her choice manage to bring mankind this far, but it's a choice made by herself alone after meeting a messianic figure from the future for two days, top. Does she even told her followers what really happened back in elpis? She certainly doesn't tell the convocation considering our emet doesn't know shit about dynamis being the cause of final days. What happen with "you don't get to dictate the fate of the star!" narrative the game has been opposing till now (especially in ShB).
It's ironic too that from the unsundered perspective, venat is the ascian equivalent to them. Someone who deemed the their race to be faulty and thus not deserved to be saved. Better leave the fighting to superior being who can control dynamis, amirite.
Also, maybe this is just me, but I feel the Ascian being that devoted to Great Rejoining is partly because of the sundering itself? Like, they were suddenly sundered without reason (form their pov), how do you think they would feel? Personally, if it happened to me I would be furious and seek rejoining to spite whoever does the sundering. But this is just my musing and irrelevant to my previous point. -
12-27-2021, 02:46 PMRulakirThis is debatable now. The cutscene in ShB with Venat in Anyder implies that she didn't confide in those closest to her about the sundering or, if she did, neglected to inform them it would include all of Etheirys. The last one to speak asks why she must be the heart because they'll miss her and need her as their leader, which makes no sense given that 1) she wasn't going anywhere and 2) none of them would remember. I had long suspected that the people who supported Venat did not know about the sundering because the odds of anyone being okay with that were virtually nil. However, given that it's stated Hydaelyn was imbued with that power it was always intended by Venat.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
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12-27-2021, 03:01 PMKozhSo just because they're not high-density populated area they don't deserve to exist? Idc whether it's a possibility or not, the thing is, they themselves expect to be erased by the end of it. They have 300 years and no one ask "uh, should we use this to rebuild society instead of going back (and potentially erase us)?". Really? Hell, even with omega and Alexander tech, they could built a better bunker than labyrinthos.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
You're right, it's actually against my argument. Because to think that the Ironworks decided to go back to the past despite the calamity already passed, is way more laughable than if black rose still exist. Hey, I tried to be kind to them, shouldn't be a problem to you, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure
Except that nabriales are dead in arr, and will never received the "nuances". Lahabrea fortunately get that though. They explained his evil mustache twirling way was due to him losing sanity because he body hopped too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikkoAkure