Summoner is a Final Fantasy 14 summoner (not a warlock wow clone)

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Originally Posted by Shuuli

I like how every argument about new summoner is about how the pets work and look. Nobody actually talks about how it feels to play the job, how much dmg output it will have and how much will it fit into actual playstyle in a video game.

I know that many gamers in FFXIV play for the looks but I heard many people complaining about Dark Knight having the issue of looking cool, filling the role of a Dark Knight, but being the worst out of the Tanks... I don't want this to happen to summoner...

I want a job that feels good to play and not just looks good to play. Also, I don't get people who say "summoner has no summons now" then waduheck is Bahamut and Phoenix? :D I am so confused. To me it actually feels good that you cannot just randomly summon this powerful beeings randomly, but you gotta work for it. With new summoner it will feel like we are Mary Sue's like usually WoL is in the game.

I wonder how new summoner will look like in lower level content. Will we not be able to use all summons there?

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I mean plenty of people have shown concerns for the potential dull feeling of the new rotation.
Some people feel like bahamut and phoenix are more turrets than actual pets now since they don't react to you at all outside of targeting and two button presses.

And I wouldn't call "waiting for a 60 second cooldon" "working for a summon" :T (That's like my biggest issue with current and nusmn. We don't work to summon our big summons, we wait for them, everything else around them is what involves the setup. And nu smn is the same, but with even less setup, and for some reason the big summons are the things that build resource?????)

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

words words words

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Please, I beg of you... Understand smn.

Research more than twitter opinions from strangers who we don't know the experience of...
(And ALSO FROM 5.0 THE SUMMONER THAT DOESN'T EXIST ANYMORE)

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

MAYBE launch 5.0 summoner when you had to weave the egi assaults, but they fixed that up right quick.

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*points to that*

Right now, the speed of smn, is ONE OF THE SLOWEST JOBS IN THE GAME.

https://i.imgur.com/zT61b6A.png


These are the casts per minute.

Notice how smn is in the bottom 3 for dps (and just for fun I threw AST in there as well.) :>

(The numbers are collected from 100 percentiles of each job in e12s (not oracle))


Your sample sizes are flawed.
Your data gathering is transparently designed to validate your own personal misinformed opinions on a class you tried at 5.0, and never touched again despite the changes.
And unfortunately, you're not going to convince anyone with such flimsy material. 'Cause anyone who is interested in getting better at a job knows how to research and find usable data.

If you want to have a respectable argument and debate on smn vs nu smn.
Show us the math.

damn, they really hit you with the out of context twitter search results. how are you gonna recover from that sick zinger?

Choosing to ignore feedback from the general community seems to be quite a trend amongst the few remaining fans of old Summoner.

No amount of feedback from Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, or even Discord communities is enough to wake certain circles up from the fact that when the average person looked at Summoner, they went "what the heck is this" and then go off to play something else. No feedback except their own appears valid to them despite reality pointing objectively in the opposite direction.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

damn, they really hit you with the out of context twitter search results. how are you gonna recover from that sick zinger?

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They made the false claim that Summoner wasn't being called a carpal tunnel job and I proved them wrong. That isn't out of context, that's disagreeing with reality staring them in the face and making the conscious choice to not acknowledge it.

If none of these channels are valid ways to gather feedback, then there is no way to prove their opinions are the dominant ones either. SMN was my first 80 back in Shadowbringers and if I could go back I would have played any other class. I understand the job well enough to know that removing Egi Assault weaving was nowhere near enough to solve its other mechanical issues and general bad-feeling gameplay.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

"No one called it a carpal tunnel job"

https://i.imgur.com/yqn9iXQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/gGFV7P9.png

You were saying?

Despite whatever fixes they implemented after 5.0's initial version of the class it is still widely regarded as *the carpal tunnel job.* And yes, dumbing it down is literally the point. There was nowhere left for the job to go with how convoluted it was. This is not new information to the playerbase outside raiders who I guess do not interact with the community at large for whatever reason. Complexity should come from fight design and the level of content you choose to tackle. Not from grappling with poorly designed controls.

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You can find people who say anything.
That's how clickbait '' news '' often work they'll go and find some rando on Twitter who said something and then go '' people say/ think... ''.
I don't think that when people say '' no one called it that '' is that LITERALLY no one did.

Personally this is the first time I've ever heard of it.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

words

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More numbers less argumentum ad populum.

While the casual opinion does give workable feedback, it is not one to base the core of the class on.
If casuals cannot find fun where the more dedicated core can, its not a failure of end-point class design, it's a failure of leveling-as-tutorial design.

Smns skill acquisition progression is all kinds of messed up, and it can give the false impression to newbies who don't like to piece together a class by reading their tooltips that the job may be convoluted / difficult.

Smn at 80 IS a very smooth job (pet jank and devotion timers excluded) with a very straight forward flow. It's just masked by the game dumping priorities on you out of order 1-79.

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Originally Posted by Roda

While the casual opinion does give workable feedback, it is not one to base the core of the class on.

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Dude, story of MNK '' feedback '' in a nutshell.
If you read MNK feedback you get so many people who are all like '' I don't/ barely play MNK.... Buuuuut, lemme go ahead and rant about how impossible positionals are and how they need to be erased. ''.
The feedback from people who actually play MNK and people who don't or have just barely touched it is like night and day.

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Originally Posted by Roda

While the casual opinion does give workable feedback, it is not one to base the core of the class on.

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Why should "casual" players be locked out of an entire job that even the devs agreed had reached the point where it could not go forward? Even dedicated SMN mains agree that the 6.0 version feels better than 5.X but their opinions do not matter because they make youtube videos.

For those who for whatever reason are surprised by Summoner's horrible reputation in the wider social community, there really are no words. Taking feedback from only hardcore fans who say yes to bad mechanics and design is how we ended up with a Summoner that felt like and was widely recognized as analgous to WoW's affliction warlock.

That road was followed to the bitter end and look where that led. At some point you have to change course to keep from colliding with the iceberg. In any case those who are still strongly attached to this...arcane poison wizard had an extra 2 weeks to enjoy their "unique" take on Summoner. I hope they enjoyed it thoroughly, because this sort of design is unlikely to see the light of day again. If they do indeed add a dot caster in 7.0, it has got to better than what SMN ended up as.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Why should "casual" players be locked out of an entire job .

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I'm not going to respond to the entirety of this because its entirely based on you putting words in my mouth, and your misinformed opinions of current smn.

I am not saying "casuals cannot play smn, hardcore class only" im saying SE needs to do a better job thinking about skill acquisition and using the leveling process as a tutorial though gameplay. (Which they are notoriously bad at) The game should provide more tools to lift up the casuals and to help them get more mechanically savvy rather than just relying on mentors to fill the gap and dumbing down classes where they cant.

I had similar opinions on the job leveling up, I just changed them after I sat down at 80 to read my tooltips and figured out just what the hell the job was expecting of me. (And after they changed the egi assaults to spells instead of abilities.)

And I'm not saying that smn doesn't have fundamental, core problems with its design, just that dots and pet management aren't it. Nu smn fixes two core problems (leveling progression, and particle effects) and one minor problem (devotion timing) but still leaves a lot of the existing core problems on top of introducing new ones.
And yes I am being vague about those core problems so you will want to discover what they are! :P

We are ignoring feedbacks that are objectively wrong, dishonest and deceptive.

Come back with feedbacks that are worth something and then we will talk. It's very simple.

There is only a limited number of ways to interpret that statement and once again shows how disconnected some are from the experience that most people have had with this job.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

There is only a limited number of ways to interpret that statement and once again shows how disconnected some are from the experience that most people have had with this job.

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The statement was "Maybe people were calling 5.0 SMN tunnel carpal job"

Your argument: let me prove you wrong by showing people tweets of people calling 5.0 SMN tunnerl carpal job.

It's weird we have to say this (again), but no. YouTube likes are not an argument. Twitter is not an argument. Twitter and intelligent life are mutually exclusive. Your comment is automatically invalid the moment you unironically use Twitter as an argument.

If you want to bring a real argument to the discussion, I invite you to use your next comment to prove why the playable version of SMN that was reworked is able to give you carpal tunnel syndrome despite being of the jobs with the slowest pace. I fear your next point might just be Tumblr, Pinterest or God knows what, though.

I might as well add this to the ongoing discussion. Appealing to casuals is what got healers to the current and incredibly awful state they're in right now, where the devs fuck over the lore every expansion and they're so braindead to play that the job is a constant revolving door and the forums are filled with complaints for the past four years. A̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶y̶ ̶t̶e̶m̶p̶b̶a̶n̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶u̶m̶s̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶l̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶m̶ ̶"̶s̶u̶d̶d̶e̶n̶l̶y̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶l̶o̶r̶e̶"̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶d̶e̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶c̶o̶n̶s̶t̶a̶n̶t̶l̶y̶ ̶t̶r̶a̶s̶h̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶l̶e̶r̶ ̶l̶o̶r̶e̶.̶

Yoshi also said healers will never be more complex than they are or more fun than they are because he doesn't want to scare casuals... when the rotation is already braindead one-button-spam that you can learn to optimize in an hour the choice is to not add to this without hurting the healer kit, but to buff the healer kit further so the curespammers and casuals who think spamming your weakest heals is how to play healer won't get their feelings hurt. Is that the philosophy we should take for every job? That we should constantly dumb them down and solely appeal to the casuals to the detriment of those who want even the slightest amount of depth from the role? That easy to learn and hard to master doesn't exist and we should drive both the skill floor and skill ceiling into the dirt?

EDIT: And it's also rich calling SMN a carpal tunnel job, when healers exist and actually are the single button spam and repetitive motion that tends to cause that kind of injury. If anything all three (soon to be four) healers are far more worthy of that title than any other job ever has been.

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Originally Posted by rewd

I fear your next point might just be Tumblr, Pinterest or God knows what, though.

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There is no evidence that could be provided to you that you would not dismiss. That being said, this is what tumblr thinks of old SMN:

https://i.imgur.com/fMloyyT.jpeg

Let me be clear these are *not* my words but they portray a sentiment that is commonly shared by most people outside of the more insular communities focused around the job, which are largely resistant to changing the class out of what comes across as an illusion of complexity when the class is just not designed as well as others. Calling healer jobs into the debate is rather unjust because even casual players are bored of healers as they currently are. New smn hits a better balance that is not overly convoluted but also not void of depth.

Twitter and Tumblr are not insular communities lol?

*Checks demographics*

Uh oh.



I am sure you can find Tweets and Tumblr posts of people who disagree with you too, just finding examples that support you doesn't prove anything.

If those social media sites are not a valid way to get a general feel of people's mood then how could one possibly pretend the forums are any better? If likes on twitter and youtube mean nothing then likes on here mean even less then. Make it make sense.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

How about cold hard facts like how many people actively play the job?

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Interesting how you assume that those who are happy about the changes are not actively playing the job when we know that to not be the case.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

People don't play jobs they don't enjoy.

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You got that right. I tried old SMN and loathed it and felt like I had been sold a lie because of how horrible it felt. In any case you don't have to be a chef to know when food just tastes bad, and so on.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Anyway, I predict that most who champion these change for pure aesthetic appeal will quit it between 6.1 ~ 6.2.

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If history has proven anything it's that just does not happen. If large amounts of the playerbase managed to have fun and main jobs like Dancer and Machinist throughout all of Shadowbringers I highly doubt they'll grow tired of the dopamine rushes new SMN gives.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If those social media sites are not a valid way to get a general feel of people's mood then how could one possibly pretend the forums are any better? If likes on twitter and youtube mean nothing then likes on here mean even less then. Make it make sense.

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How about cold hard facts like how many people actively play the job? How many raid with it? People don't play jobs they don't enjoy.

Anyway, I predict that most who champion these change for pure aesthetic appeal will quit it between 6.1 ~ 6.2. Personal I wonder if SMN will get hit with the movement tax when it comes to damage output.

Here's the thing, general feels are not specific solutions.

Take this example from my personal life
I have this friend, I love him to bits, but his grasp on feedback mirrors the average mmo player. (Casual, not very interested in the construction of the game, talks in emotions). Whenever we talked about openworld design and how it was lacking he would always swear up and down "we need an urban map an urban map would be fix everything!" Which would leave us kind of puzzled because we were talking about how shallow the maps felt, not aesthetics. Then amarout came and he still wasn't happy. After some prying I got him to reference other games with designs he liked, and it turned out he didn't want a city exactly, he wanted a sprawling metroidvania style map with a lot of connected chambers and secret routes. He just didn't know how to express that in constructive terms, so he just picked a vibe and ran with it.

Listening to player feedback is more of an art than it is a creation of a todo list. And thats why we as players should give as much detailed information as we can. Both numerical aaand emotional. But we have to be specific and honest.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

"No one called it a carpal tunnel job"

You were saying?

Despite whatever fixes they implemented after 5.0's initial version of the class it is still widely regarded as *the carpal tunnel job.* And yes, dumbing it down is literally the point. There was nowhere left for the job to go with how convoluted it was. This is not new information to the playerbase outside raiders who I guess do not interact with the community at large for whatever reason. Complexity should come from fight design and the level of content you choose to tackle. Not from grappling with poorly designed controls.

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You literally proved my point. I said that people could make the claim for 5.0 launch summoner, and all the provided examples are from when 5.0 was live. They fixed it. Case closed.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If those social media sites are not a valid way to get a general feel of people's mood then how could one possibly pretend the forums are any better?

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Well for one if you post on this forum it's evidence in and of itself that you actually play the game ( and that you're playing it currently ).

On sites like Reddit, Twitter and Tumblr people also just tend to be '' Redditors '' etc.
And maybe they happen to play FFXIV or they just end up there because it's gaming related and they just skim through gaming related subs and maybe tried the game once or quit or whatever.
People just go from Subreddit to Subreddit and shitpost.

Edit: To use myself as an example, I did it on the WoW Subreddit before I deleted my account because Reddit is the worst.
I haven't played WoW since Cata but I still posted there.

wondering about deathflare come EW it gets upgrade to Ahk morn after we get bahamuth at 70 i guess

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Originally Posted by Roda

Here's the thing, general feels are not specific solutions.

Take this example from my personal life
I have this friend, I love him to bits, but his grasp on feedback mirrors the average mmo player. (Casual, not very interested in the construction of the game, talks in emotions). Whenever we talked about openworld design and how it was lacking he would always swear up and down "we need an urban map an urban map would be fix everything!" Which would leave us kind of puzzled because we were talking about how shallow the maps felt, not aesthetics. Then amarout came and he still wasn't happy. [/b]

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Tbh Amarout is so underused , could have been the main hub or something like Mor dhona back then.

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

wondering about deathflare come EW it gets upgrade to Ahk morn after we get bahamuth at 70.

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Deathflare is still deathflare, akh morn is still akh morn. We'll get 1 deathflare and 2 akh morns every Bahamut.

Given the changes to DWT you can Deathflare and Akh Morn in conjunction with each other leading to bigger burst instead of having a delay. But you can also choose to delay as well. Lots of nuance and control.

I am not of the opinion that those who routinely ignore widespread sentiments from the playerbase have the cause nor credibility to demand honesty, given their express wishes are to:

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Originally Posted by rewd

If talking about how the new SMN works and is structured ruins your fun, excitement and arguments, it's not my problem. I'd say that's actually the point.

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It comes as no surprise that those who say such things are unreceptive to feedback from people outside their circles. If objective reality leaned in their favor, this rework would not have happened and would not have received such acclaim from just about everyone under the sun aside from a handful of forum posters and...I think 1 or 2(?) people on reddit whose arguments were also picked apart and laid bare before their threads were deleted in their entirety.

The confidence with which they made their arguments comes across as out of touch if not downright unwelcoming, and I find myself and others largely unconvinced of the validity of their points. Thus, if the facts do not align with this alternate perception of how the class plays and is received by people, combined with such attitudes and tones underlying their clear wish to bring people's mood down, and yet somehow feeling justified for having tolerated the failed state of the job up till now, it is apparent that no further good can come from following along with their way anymore.

If for some reason people on tumblr are having an opinion of just how bad a class is designed maybe just maybe something has gone seriously wrong. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to the next 10 years of FFXIV's new Summoner.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If for some reason people on tumblr are having an opinion of just how bad a class is designed maybe just maybe something has gone seriously wrong.

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You mean the very specific people on Tumblr you hunted down who agree with you?
People see what they want to see and confirmation bias is a thing.
And just because you can find people saying something doesn't mean much, it's like people who start their threads with '' as a woman '' or something similar and then go on to speak as an authority of women and about what they think is/ isn't offensive.
Then you get people using them to reinforce what they already believe and use them as '' evidence ''
The truth is that they only speak for themselves and their opinion is not indicative of anything other than just that.
Even if you could find groups of women saying something it still doesn't really mean much, you could just as easily find another group who says the opposite.

I think it's better to just listen to individual arguments that are actually backed up by something else than '' imo ''.
'' People say '' means nothing.
You need a bit more than that tbh.

I can find groups of people who circlejerk about how awful positionals are and what a plague they are to the game, or how overcomplicated the rotations are.
I don't think that means that therefore it needs to change or that it means it's what most people think or want.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I think it's better to just listen to individual arguments that are actually backed up by something else than '' imo ''.
'' People say '' means nothing.
You need a bit more than that tbh.

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The problem is the individual arguments presented by the fans of old SMN have been picked apart time and time again. They all boil down to "imo."As seen on the first page of this thread where I went through some of their highlights and opinions I found particularly baffling.

Failing to listen to "what people say" is how you end up with a Blizzard-level situation where devs routinely ignore feedback until the absolute last minute in attempt to win back the trust that was already betrayed. I find myself quite happy in this game where the devs listen to what the general playerbase is saying even if it takes them a while or if they choose to work in total silence.

In any case it was a common sentiment that FFXIV's old Summoner failed on a mechanical and thematic level. Positionals used to really suck too if I remember correctly, where if you failed to do them the combo would break. Should the devs have ignored the general playerbase then as well?

Ah but wait-that would have taken away their beloved "complexity" that were really just horrendous mechanics in the eyes of everyone else at the time.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I am not of the opinion that those who routinely ignore widespread sentiments from the playerbase have the cause nor credibility to demand honesty, given their express wishes are to:



It comes as no surprise that those who say such things are unreceptive to feedback from people outside their circles. If objective reality leaned in their favor, this rework would not have happened and would not have received such acclaim from just about everyone under the sun aside from a handful of forum posters and...I think 1 or 2(?) people on reddit whose arguments were also picked apart and laid bare before their threads were deleted in their entirety.

The confidence with which they made their arguments comes across as out of touch if not downright unwelcoming, and I find myself and others largely unconvinced of the validity of their points. Thus, if the facts do not align with this alternate perception of how the class plays and is received by people, combined with such attitudes and tones underlying their clear wish to bring people's mood down, and yet somehow feeling justified for having tolerated the failed state of the job up till now, it is apparent that no further good can come from following along with their way anymore.

If for some reason people on tumblr are having an opinion of just how bad a class is designed maybe just maybe something has gone seriously wrong. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to the next 10 years of FFXIV's new Summoner.

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Stop embarassing yourself and trying to reach new lows. That comment from more than one month ago was a reply to

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We all get it YOU and a few others hate the changes. How about stop trying to ruin others' fun or excitement? So instead of trying to bring ppl down to your level just leave them along and allow them to be excited. Guess what the changes is happening and there is nothing you and other doomsayers can do to stop it. The dev team had to and have made the decision and this is the smn we going to have for the next two years. If you want to criticize it fine but how about offering some structural criticism and offer suggestions to make smn better instead of just whining you just hit the same button over and over, and the spell effects are ugly. Also, I still say how about yall hold your judgments and wait to actually play the job.

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If other opinions ruin your excitement (in this case it is a very shallow excitement, then), don't spend time in a forum but go find an echo chamber that best suits your opinion.

Stop trying to weaponize other people and their opinions - even though this is the only thing you do - and develop a real argument for once. You are still conveniently ignoring Roda's point about SMN somehow being the tunnel carpal job with one of the lowest AMP in the game. Don't think this is surprising to anyone., though.

I will not speak as to what is or is not embarrassing but the only time I have witnessed this level of unreasonable complaining is when people had meltdowns over male Viera's height.

There is only less than a week left of Affliction Warlock Summoner's time in game, so all I can do is recommend you enjoy the time you have left with it. Cherish and treasure all your fond memories of Bio, Bio II, Bio III, Miasma, Miasma III, Bane, chicken nugget Titan, hot chili pepper Ifrit, collard greens Garuda (I know how fond some were of Contagion!), and reflect on how lucky you were in that you were able to experience such a "unique!" version of Summoner never before seen in the entire FF series (and is unlikely to be seen again).

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I will not speak as to what is or is not embarrassing but the only time I have witnessed this level of unreasonable complaining is when people had meltdowns over male Viera's height.

There is only less than a week left of Affliction Warlock Summoner's time in game, so all I can do is recommend you enjoy the time you have left with it. Cherish and treasure all your fond memories of Bio, Bio II, Bio III, Miasma, Miasma III, Bane, chicken nugget Titan, hot chili pepper Ifrit, collard greens Garuda (I know how fond some were of Contagion!), and reflect on how lucky you were in that you were able to experience such a "unique!" version of Summoner never before seen in the entire FF series (and is unlikely to be seen again).

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Still not addressing what Rona said. Clownery knows no end. Well done!

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

I am not of the opinion that those who routinely ignore widespread sentiments from the playerbase have the cause nor credibility to demand honesty, given their express wishes are to:

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BOLD of you to make this statement when you have been consistently ignoring any and all feedback, conversation, and hard, objective, data that runs counter to your conveniently constructed reality unless it's for the purpose of being dismissive to anyone who isn't posting with the sole purpose of validating you.


LETS GO DOWN THE LIST SHALL WE??

On the point of ignoring things:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Despite whatever fixes they implemented after 5.0's initial version of the class it is still widely regarded as *the carpal tunnel job.* And yes, dumbing it down is literally the point. ... grappling with poorly designed controls.

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Originally Posted by Roda

Right now, the speed of smn, is ONE OF THE SLOWEST JOBS IN THE GAME.

https://i.imgur.com/zT61b6A.png


These are the casts per minute.

Notice how smn is in the bottom 3 for dps (and just for fun I threw AST in there as well.) :>

(The numbers are collected from 100 percentiles of each job in e12s (not oracle))

If you want to have a respectable argument and debate on smn vs nu smn.
Show us the math.

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Respond to that.

On the point of "us vs them"

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

It comes as no surprise that those who say such things are unreceptive to feedback from people outside their circles. If objective reality leaned in their favor, this rework would not have happened and would not have received such acclaim from just about everyone under the sun aside from a handful of forum posters and...I think 1 or 2(?) people on reddit whose arguments were also picked apart and laid bare before their threads were deleted in their entirety.

The confidence with which they made their arguments comes across as out of touch if not downright unwelcoming, and I find myself and others largely unconvinced of the validity of their points. Thus, if the facts do not align with this alternate perception of how the class plays and is received by people, combined with such attitudes and tones underlying their clear wish to bring people's mood down, and yet somehow feeling justified for having tolerated the failed state of the job up till now, it is apparent that no further good can come from following along with their way anymore.

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Your "circles"

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

One search meant to only find the validating quotes from 12 whole people on twitter

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Two posts from tumblr. (could be the same person)

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Mentioning Youtube, Twitter, Facebook, and Discord with no data (Read: numbers, spreadsheets, graphs, reports, DATA)

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How you speak about anyone who is not you.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

beyond their echo chamber

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Yeah, at this point there's nothing to gain from engaging with the same people who think the sky is falling when it comes to summoner. ...

If for whatever reason someone is so attached to dot mage, WoW is releasing patch 9.15 in the near future so you can go fulfill your Warlock fantasy over there...

So goodbye, all of us real summoners are ready and willing to take your places. And we're not sorry for "taking away your job!" ...

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Making Summoner into a pure Summoner only angered people who were more married to the warlock aspects of the class than being an actual Summoner while the other 99% of the internet is celebrating. The arguments they've given in this and other threads make me chuckle...
And we will gladly come in droves to replace any lost warlocks come 6.0.

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Just throwing out magic numbers. (and you said you didn't like acn... ;P)

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

... what is known as the "carpal tunnel job" in the wider community outside of more insular circles.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

... the few remaining fans of old Summoner.

...certain circles...

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Dismissive, spiteful, assumptions with no evidence.

I've left them as quotes so anyone who wants can go click on them to see the full context. I mostly just tried to cut out the stuff that wasn't relevant to dismissal or name-calling.

This approach to the discussion is what people have problems with with your "arguments".
You base your stance's worth on an unproven popularity. You make up numbers and leave no consideration for nuance. And when you've convinced yourself that (almost) everyone is on your side, you make a special point to punctuate your opinions with statements meant to ostracize those who don't share your opinion.


You are allowed to hold the opinion that you like nu smn. You're allowed to not like current smn. But if you're going to make objective claims, show us the math. And if you're going to make subjective claims, speak for yourself.
Try, just try to have compassion with others, even if you think they're wrong or misguided. If an argument isn't working, don't get frustrated, change your approach.


Now I'm going to have to take a break, 'cause rereading this thread was depressing.

What numbers do I need to show when anyone who spends time on any social media site inevitably comes across memes of carpal tunnel summoner or any of the other classic stigmas attached to the job? It is as obvious as looking out a window.

In any case you are free to interpret my words however you wish. That being said I am indeed largely unsympathetic regarding the defense of mechanics that feel bad and do not work, topping that off with a lack of visual payoff that every other summoner in the FF series has. I am not interested in appeals to emotion from niche crowds when everyone else looking in on the situation can see it all for what it is.

Given how strongly certain other...interesting design choices were defended by small sectors of the playerbase in the past it is only inevitable that vocal minorities will raises their voices in one last hurrah as the sun sets on a version of a job that the players and devs agreed did not work and could not go forward. If nothing else examining how different everyone's perceived realities are proved highly entertaining and it will be sad to see the conversation fade away come Friday.

Here's the thing, those memes? They're memes. Jokes. Jabs. Laughs. At the LAUNCH of ShB SMN due to egi assaults being oGCDs which was a nightmare. After that change the "carpal tunnel" thing became a meme, nothing more.

Summoner has been a very popular and well performing job (depending on patch...) since HW so the mechanics obviously work or else the job would be unplayable. It's number of players isn't abysmal like you claim. Some people don't like the play style and that's cool but the job is, for this iteration, still fun.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

The problem is the individual arguments presented by the fans of old SMN have been picked apart time and time again. They all boil down to "imo."As seen on the first page of this thread where I went through some of their highlights and opinions I found particularly baffling.

Failing to listen to "what people say" is how you end up with a Blizzard-level situation where devs routinely ignore feedback until the absolute last minute in attempt to win back the trust that was already betrayed. I find myself quite happy in this game where the devs listen to what the general playerbase is saying even if it takes them a while or if they choose to work in total silence.

In any case it was a common sentiment that FFXIV's old Summoner failed on a mechanical and thematic level. Positionals used to really suck too if I remember correctly, where if you failed to do them the combo would break. Should the devs have ignored the general playerbase then as well?

Ah but wait-that would have taken away their beloved "complexity" that were really just horrendous mechanics in the eyes of everyone else at the time.

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I've played MNK since ARR I know a thing or two about being ignored.
Just because you don't get what you want tho doesn't mean that they're not listening.

Attacks also used to be able to miss entirely ( which made it extra bad with combos ).
I'd say that it's fair to assume that the overall consensus there was far greater against it than the opinions here on SMN.
Not to mention much more fundamental and affecting more Jobs at the same time.

I think that everyone who doesn't get what they want feel like they're not being listened to, I rly don't think that there is a widespread consensus about this tho as you're saying.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

words

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What is the point of engaging in conversation if you have no intention of making your point understood? You plug your ears to anyone, and expect everyone to just believe your claims without needing any explanation. You try to state your position appealing to emotion with your own sense of betrayal, but you won't afford others the same consideration. You directly engage with those who don't share your experience, but refuse to show sympathy when they respond, and instead revel in their sense of loss.

What is the point of your participation in this discussion if it you aren't here to have a back and forth conversation? Are you really just here to find some kind of twisted enjoyment at other people's hurt?

I enjoy how this thread has turned into everyone vs aveyond; the ratio of likes between posters says it all.

It is quite clear that the emotional tilt is coming more from one direction than the other. Me stating the facts does not mean that I am trying to appeal to anyone's emotions. I'm just telling you what's going on outside this...bubble for lack of a better phrase. Again it is the reader that assigns tone to my words, so if you choose to view me as the villain taking away affliction warlock summoner, that is entirely not my problem.

Those who prefer an actual summoner are simply not going to convinced that a poison mage with widely criticized controls and gameplay flow is better than the 6.0 iteration. If they choose to feel sympathetic to those attached to the past version of the class, that is their choice. But they are not entitled to such sympathy, so if someone does not care, they just don't.

In any case there is more evidence stacked against the old summoner than the new, however much people decide to not engage with it does not change the fact that it is there, and has been for the past 8 years. It was very curious seeing all of the expressive takes and enthusiastic defenses of the job, much to the bewilderment of others who do not share such ideas. If I am being told to disregard the thousands of upvotes/likes/retweets/any and all other metrics then there is no pretending that the like ratio here means anything more.

This conversation dragged on for two weeks more than it should have. Again I implore those who feel so strongly about their job to spend some more time with it before the servers go down for maintenance. For 8 years this path was followed until nothing more could be done. To have been in the devs' favor for so long is objectively a tremendous accomplishment, and one you should celebrate. If only classes like Dark Knight or Scholar could say the same.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

Me stating the facts

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You mean the facts we have been begging you to state only for you to run away like a scared chicken as a result?

I’ll just say SMN in EW looks remedial but it’s pretty which is simply enough for some people, worked on MCH and DRK and the trend continues to burn jobs alive

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Originally Posted by rewd

You mean the facts we have been begging you to state only for you to run away like a scared chicken as a result?

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It really is a post 2006 Gamefaqs move. Pointless argument nitpicking subjective things and when asked for a rational rebuke stating facts none are to be found and the result becomes a poor game of semantics and leads to either a change of subject or 5 pages of backpedaling.

Best let them walk home to Gridania and move on.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I enjoy how this thread has turned into everyone vs aveyond; the ratio of likes between posters says it all.

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Aveyond is allowed to feel how Aveyond feels about SMN.
I just take issue with this entire notion that because you can find some people on Tumblr saying something that it means anything.

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I’ll just say SMN in EW looks remedial but it’s pretty which is simply enough for some people, worked on MCH and DRK and the trend continues to burn jobs alive

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I won't deny your point about DRK and MCH which lost some complexity in their redesign (although arguably, most of the complexity came from clunky job design and mechanics), or even wome other jobs which lost some complexity / skill ceiling over the course of extensions.
Here SMN has lost DoTs management mainly, in profit of elemental summons which do seem to be a bit more meaningful and deep than keeping DoTs up. I won't say we lost Demi management as we were mostly trying to avoid bugs and ghosting. I think it's a bit different, especially as the rework hasn't changed half of the job, and focused on its downtime.
SMN has been my main since I started FFXIV, and in principle I'm not sure this version of the job speaks to me, but I don't think it's made easier (or ruined) from its previous iterations.