Pld buff or War nerf in 1.22?

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Originally Posted by Marcellus_Cassius

The way to fix PLD is to delete it and give those people 50 levels to spend on WAR.

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i want to put my 50 lvls on a craft since i have war already

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Using my trusty decoder ring, I'll sift through this mumbo jumbo and try to respond:

Most of PLD AF is actually good and useful. Sentinel's/Cobalt isn't going to make a drastic difference in your DEF, HP or VIT unless you double meld+ and until you do, the MP restore on the body, the enhanced heals on the hands and the enhanced regen on the legs are some of your best assests. The crown is pretty good on it's own merits.

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Not to mention the Mind bonuses on the Coronet, Cuisses and Surcoat, which affect the Flatblade combo as well as healing magic potency.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Most of PLD AF is actually good and useful. Sentinel's/Cobalt isn't going to make a drastic difference in your DEF, HP or VIT unless you double meld+ and until you do, the MP restore on the body, the enhanced heals on the hands and the enhanced regen on the legs are some of your best assests. The crown is pretty good on it's own merits.

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Aye the AF is "Good" if you don't have double/triple melded gear, just sucks for me that I do. XD

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

Aye the AF is "Good" if you don't have double/triple melded gear, just sucks for me that I do. XD

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The AF sets have stats that cannot be achieved on the same piece of gear through materia, or at all. This is what sets them apart.

Also, the game is balanced around single-meld for materia. Of course double/triple melds are going to be better than most gear. They're above the intended balance of the game.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

It's better than what we had before. It's only about a 600 hp gap as opposed to a 1k hp gap. Plus with 2 types of regen and a handful of self-heals, it is at least a step in the right direction. Paladin will be more viable than it is now.

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There has never been a 1k gap... its always been 600hp....

Aye I'm in total agreement with ya on that point, I really think the AF is good for what it's worth and I really didn't see a bunch of GLA's (or MRDs for that matter) going around in double+ melded cobalt/sentinels prior to 1.21 to begin with. So getting a freebe AF set that has the equivalent strength of melded (or double melded in the Crowns case) gear that plays to most of the jobs strengths and abilities is the overall better choice.

As for the I already have them remark I was just being snarky. :P

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Originally Posted by Rydin

There has never been a 1k gap... its always been 600hp....

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To be fair, a nude PLD and a nude WAR have a 500hp difference....
So being that they have access to the same gear... the most their HP will differ (While wearing the same thing) is 550
even with respective AF gear, the difference is 600 and some change...
It's just that difference is HUGE when you think about something like coincounter potentially hitting for over 4k and your WAR has 5k hp and your PLD is at 4.45K

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Originally Posted by Rydin

There has never been a 1k gap... its always been 600hp....

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It's a 600~ HP difference naked between the two, however when you look at their HP difference when both are suited in AFs it's closer to 800. It seems to me that Arcell is comparing their geared HP.

With the same accessories equipped, no belt, and full AF on both my HP values are:

PLD: 3053
WAR: 3804

That's a difference of 751 HP. However it doesn't quite end there. While on PLD one is much better off equipping a plate belt with enmity melded on as much as possible, on WAR enmity is not an issue and thus it's generally preferred to meld HP. I use an enmity cobaly plate belt on PLD and a Peisteskin Hunting Belt with 108 HP melded on WAR, which brings their HPs to:

PLD: 3055
WAR: 3914

Once you apply the 10% buff from Strength in Numbers you get:

PLD: 3360
WAR: 4305

I think this is the ~1k HP difference Arcell is observing. In the Garuda video PLD appeared to have 3670 HP when not under the effect of Battle Voice, and 4k+ when buffed by it. These videos have a history of being incorrect as far as HP/MP/damage values go, however the HP/MP values of the other jobs seemed accurate to me.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

Using my trusty decoder ring, I'll sift through this mumbo jumbo and try to respond:

Most of PLD AF is actually good and useful. Sentinel's/Cobalt isn't going to make a drastic difference in your DEF, HP or VIT unless you double meld+ and until you do, the MP restore on the body, the enhanced heals on the hands and the enhanced regen on the legs are some of your best assests. The crown is pretty good on it's own merits.

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and what half decent tank doesnt have double melded gear? lol when its so easy to get a double meld but since u kno the gear so well

Gallant Coronet
Required Level: 49
Requires: PLD
Defense 89
Healing Magic Potency+15 Enmity+5 Mind+16 MP+20

Gallant Surcoat
Required Level: 50
Requires: PLD
Defense 180
Enhances Cover MP+40 Mind+12 Healing Magic Potency+3 Enmity+3

Gallant Cuisses
Required Level: 46
Requires: PLD
Defense 130
Enhances Divine Veil Vitality+7 Mind+7 MP+10 Enmity+2

Gallant Gauntlets
Required Level: 47
Requires: PLD
Defense 73
Enhances Holy Succor MP+30 Vitality+2 Enmity+4

Gallant Sollerets
Required Level: 45
Requires: PLD
Defense 68
Block Rate+3 Vitality+2 MP+20 Enmity+1


VS

Required Level: 50
Requires: GLA MRD PLD WAR
Defense 94
HP+40 Crit Evasion+10 Crit Resilience+10

Sentinel's Cuirass
Required Level: 50
Requires: GLA MRD PLD WAR
Defense 182
HP+50 Vitality+4 Mind+4 Block Rate+5

Sentinel's Trousers
Required Level: 50
Requires: GLA MRD PLD WAR
Defense 135
HP+20 Vitality+6 Block+5

Sentinel's Gauntlets
Required Level: 50
Requires: GLA MRD PLD WAR
Defense 76
HP+30 Block Rate+5 Parry+5

Sentinel's Sabatons
Required Level: 50
Requires: GLA MRD PLD WAR
Defense 70
HP+27 Vitality+3 Enmity+9



17 more def
167+ hp vs 120+ mp
13+ vit vs 11+ vit
9+ enmity vs 15+ enimty
10+ block rate / 5+ block vs 3+ block rate
but they do have 35+ mind 18+ healing potency (good thing i can heal for lots because ima take a shit tone of damage)
but this isnt anything major lol because tanks dont prioritize HP, Def, Vit, and block/block rate for tanking

i think its kind of obvious which will help you tank better and which will help you heal better (120 mp is one cure or ss :-/) lol but you helped me make my point you can meld the none af gear and it will better by far.....before you put your decoder rings on you should probably come up with a better argument than my af gear enhances 3 of my abilities lol the enhancements on each adv job does not make or break the class its a advantage of having the af gear but when the gear itself is a disadvantage to playing the job (like you need to) it makes your argument invalid. i dont think i read in here once that they should buff plds healing ability because buffing pld heals will balance them and put them back in the main tank spot lol because it wont. ppl want to tank not heal themselves after every other ability... which you can tell with the af gear stats what it is being prioritized

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

It's a 600~ HP difference naked between the two, however when you look at their HP difference when both are suited in AFs it's closer to 800. It seems to me that Arcell is comparing their geared HP.

With the same accessories equipped, no belt, and full AF on both my HP values are:

PLD: 3053
WAR: 3804

That's a difference of 751 HP. However it doesn't quite end there. While on PLD one is much better off equipping a plate belt with enmity melded on as much as possible, on WAR enmity is not an issue and thus it's generally preferred to meld HP. I use an enmity cobaly plate belt on PLD and a Peisteskin Hunting Belt with 108 HP melded on WAR, which brings their HPs to:

PLD: 3055
WAR: 3914

Once you apply the 10% buff from Strength in Numbers you get:

PLD: 3360
WAR: 4305

I think this is the ~1k HP difference Arcell is observing. In the Garuda video PLD appeared to have 3670 HP when not under the effect of Battle Voice, and 4k+ when buffed by it. These videos have a history of being incorrect as far as HP/MP/damage values go, however the HP/MP values of the other jobs seemed accurate to me.

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thats not fair....
Saying their HP is different when one has an HP belt and one has an enmity belt on?
well duh...
For coincounter I straight tank him in double HP gear anyway
meaning... in which case the difference is 550hp...
I do agree that is significant... just adding a little clarity

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Originally Posted by Rydin

thats not fair....
Saying their HP is different when one has an HP belt and one has an enmity belt on?
well duh...
For coincounter I straight tank him in double HP gear anyway
meaning... in which case the difference is 550hp...
I do agree that is significant... just adding a little clarity

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Fair point. I just wanted to draw attention to how they can be geared differently. That being said, putting the same double melded HP belt on PLD won't make as drastic a difference as 3670 HP in full party. We'll see what 1.22 brings I guess.

i dont know what server yall play on but every good Pld tank i have ever seen chooses there single/double melded cobalt/sentinels gear over their AF

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Originally Posted by knite23

i dont know what server yall play on but every good Pld tank i have ever seen chooses there single/double melded cobalt/sentinels gear over their AF

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I play on a server where every good PLD tank chooses WAR instead of PLD.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I play on a server where every good PLD tank chooses WAR instead of PLD.

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haha... that's funny... lol

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Originally Posted by knite23

i dont know what server yall play on but every good Pld tank i have ever seen chooses there single/double melded cobalt/sentinels gear over their AF

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I don't have a single piece of double meld gear or Sentinels and I tank just fine. Skills can overcome stat differences, gear just helps you to more easily achieve favorable results.

and thats good i applaud anyone who chooses pld over war but that whole Skill vs gear argument is very weak and is only used as a crutch for players who think that by saying this statement will make someone overlook that at the end of the day a skilled tank with good gear is better than a skilled tank with not as good gear.

I play on a server where if you bring me along and I'm coming warrior, you damn well expect me to tank or else someone's going to die.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

I play on a server where every good PLD tank chooses WAR instead of PLD.

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or this lol but if they got tired of warrior and felt like tanking on pld they wouldnt use the af gear except for maybe the circlet

Dear SE, Shield, the clue is in the name!

I hope they do nothing.

PLD just needs more enmity generation, an AOE enmity gather (on a low cool down), and some sort of passive aura that does damage and generates emnity.

Or just make WAR an AOE tank, and make PLD a single target tank, where war cannot takae the hits from boss mobs

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Originally Posted by Weathermore

PLD just needs more enmity generation, an AOE enmity gather (on a low cool down), and some sort of passive aura that does damage and generates emnity.

Or just make WAR an AOE tank, and make PLD a single target tank, where war cannot takae the hits from boss mobs

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I think your second sentence would help more. PLD enmity isn't as much a problem as it's lack of natural defensive edge against a WAR.

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Originally Posted by Alerith

I think your second sentence would help more. PLD enmity isn't as much a problem as it's lack of natural defensive edge against a WAR.

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I still think pld needs enough dmg to be doing like 50 dps per fight that's enough to make sure hate is fine, the enmity combo sucks balls cause when you do 45 dmg that enmity bonus does nothing good in terms of hate. I just think pld should be break atleast 100 dmg on its second ws on bosses and atleast 400 on the third one. All other melee first or second ws does the dmg a pld third ws does.

Has no one other than myself wondered about the:
The devs want BLM to have the highest dmg output period.
The devs want WAR to have the highest melee dmg and highest HP and be a solid tank.
The devs gave us one viable healing job.

Maybe I'm just seeing things and jumping at shadows but what I see in those 3 lines, which are repeated throughout the forums is:

The devs felt like making 3 jobs that cover all roles completely so they can essentially leave the other jobs on back burners cause they don't want to deal with them anymore. All the content(we'll see about Garuda) is geared to best suit pts of WHM (WHM||BLM) BLM BLM BLM BLM WAR (WAR||BLM).
Yeah other jobs can perform, but they are absolutely unnecessary, grab a war or 2 a whm or 2 and fill the remaining slots w/ blms you WILL win and chances are you'll get the speed run too...

But so long as everyone is satisified that they have one job that fills the role they like best w/e, healers got whm, nukers got blm, dds and tanks got war. That seems pretty fair to me ... ... ... ... ... ... I kid of course

I only mention any of that because no one is raging at the idea of "The devs planned it this way and want it this way and are planning to keep it this way."

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Has no one other than myself wondered about the:
The devs want BLM to have the highest dmg output period.
The devs want WAR to have the highest melee dmg and highest HP and be a solid tank.
The devs gave us one viable healing job.

Maybe I'm just seeing things and jumping at shadows but what I see in those 3 lines, which are repeated throughout the forums is:

The devs felt like making 3 jobs that cover all roles completely so they can essentially leave the other jobs on back burners cause they don't want to deal with them anymore. All the content(we'll see about Garuda) is geared to best suit pts of WHM (WHM||BLM) BLM BLM BLM BLM WAR (WAR||BLM).
Yeah other jobs can perform, but they are absolutely unnecessary, grab a war or 2 a whm or 2 and fill the remaining slots w/ blms you WILL win and chances are you'll get the speed run too...

But so long as everyone is satisified that they have one job that fills the role they like best w/e, healers got whm, nukers got blm, dds and tanks got war. That seems pretty fair to me ... ... ... ... ... ... I kid of course

I only mention any of that because no one is raging at the idea of "The devs planned it this way and want it this way and are planning to keep it this way."

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As much as I enjoy my Warrior and Marauder, I'd /ragequit if that were true. It's one thing to have content used best by certain classes, and it's another thing to employ different content for different classes, but to create content in a manner to ignore the "less-popular classes" such as Lancer (I'm using Lancer since it's the class I don't like, along with Dragoon) just tells me the devs truly are lazy and too stupid to deserve any of my money.

If garuda does aoe damage in melee range people will resort to stacking thm/blm just like ifrit.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

If garuda does aoe damage in melee range people will resort to stacking thm/blm just like ifrit.

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Well they said they would be creating content that was more friendly to all classes/jobs starting with Garuda, so I imagine we'll start seeing AoE's with much longer ranges or more odd moves like Coincounters Eye of the Beholder where it specifically goes after long ranged casters who are out of melee range but within cast/attack range. Frankly I'd be all for it if noone is safe from a mob regardless of hate or position.

It doesn't matter if it is possible to beat garuda with a varied set up, the community will still try to throw all X job parties at it because the community is stupid and the community has no balls.

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I imagine we'll start seeing AoE's with much longer ranges or more odd moves like Coincounters Eye of the Beholder where it specifically goes after long ranged casters who are out of melee range but within cast/attack range

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Oh, cool. They finally decided to try Shadow Crash-like abilities! Does it home in on ranged DPS or does it target the ground below them?

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It doesn't matter if it is possible to beat garuda with a varied set up, the community will still try to throw all X job parties at it because the community is stupid and the community has no balls.

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If the design drives the community to those ends, then the developers have truly learned nothing from FFXI.

PS: Buff paladins.

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Originally Posted by Roj

It doesn't matter if it is possible to beat garuda with a varied set up, the community will still try to throw all X job parties at it because the community is stupid and the community has no balls.

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I know that's true, but I'd prefer a fight that was more realistic for all jobs to participate in, than something like the Mog fight where hate is crazy and mogs are constantly moving and changing positions all the time making short-ranged attackers lives a living hell to get off combos.

Ifrit was almost as bad to be honest, using short ranged attackers were often punished because you often had to run from eruptions all the time, get knocked back from Vulcan Burst, or get hit by his Singe aura every few seconds.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Has no one other than myself wondered about the:
The devs want BLM to have the highest dmg output period.
The devs want WAR to have the highest melee dmg and highest HP and be a solid tank.
The devs gave us one viable healing job.

Maybe I'm just seeing things and jumping at shadows but what I see in those 3 lines, which are repeated throughout the forums is:

The devs felt like making 3 jobs that cover all roles completely so they can essentially leave the other jobs on back burners cause they don't want to deal with them anymore. All the content(we'll see about Garuda) is geared to best suit pts of WHM (WHM||BLM) BLM BLM BLM BLM WAR (WAR||BLM).
Yeah other jobs can perform, but they are absolutely unnecessary, grab a war or 2 a whm or 2 and fill the remaining slots w/ blms you WILL win and chances are you'll get the speed run too...

But so long as everyone is satisified that they have one job that fills the role they like best w/e, healers got whm, nukers got blm, dds and tanks got war. That seems pretty fair to me ... ... ... ... ... ... I kid of course

I only mention any of that because no one is raging at the idea of "The devs planned it this way and want it this way and are planning to keep it this way."

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War does not have the highest melee damage, it's the weakest melee after Pld.

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Originally Posted by Dragon

As much as I enjoy my Warrior and Marauder, I'd /ragequit if that were true. It's one thing to have content used best by certain classes, and it's another thing to employ different content for different classes, but to create content in a manner to ignore the "less-popular classes" such as Lancer (I'm using Lancer since it's the class I don't like, along with Dragoon) just tells me the devs truly are lazy and too stupid to deserve any of my money.

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I didn't say content ignored any jobs, it just all seems to encourage pts of war blm whm. All the content is best run by those 3 jobs:

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Yeah other jobs can perform, but they are absolutely unnecessary, grab a war or 2 a whm or 2 and fill the remaining slots w/ blms you WILL win and chances are you'll get the speed run too...

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I did say it seems to me as if the devs did this to make it possible to focus their efforts on things other than the 4 less popular(I wonder why) jobs. I shouldn't say that exactly BRD is useful for things that no other job can do.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

If garuda does aoe damage in melee range people will resort to stacking thm/blm just like ifrit.

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Yep that's what I'm talking about. Design for war whm blm...

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Originally Posted by SwordCoheir

I know that's true, but I'd prefer a fight that was more realistic for all jobs to participate in, than something like the Mog fight where hate is crazy and mogs are constantly moving and changing positions all the time making short-ranged attackers lives a living hell to get off combos.

Ifrit was almost as bad to be honest, using short ranged attackers were often punished because you often had to run from eruptions all the time, get knocked back from Vulcan Burst, or get hit by his Singe aura every few seconds.

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Another post that just helps show my point. Designed toward war whm blm...
There's literally thousands of posts about this kind of design and unbalance.

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Originally Posted by KumaAkuma

War does not have the highest melee damage, it's the weakest melee after Pld.

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Talking base weapon dmg here, WAR has the highest to date by 20. Which means that a WAR geared for DDing should be able to post higher numbers than any other job since they would have the highest dmg cap ... Was also /quote ing a post that I couldn't re-find(I was being lazy) but the formula does support WAR as the single most powerful DD


But looking at my own post I see some flaws in it, I left out WHM tanking primals for instance, can out tank pld lol, I kid kind of, but the reality is things are more broken than people seem to want to see, and everyone just screams "Don't nerf WAR, just buff PLD". Balance of things in this particular release are off the wall non-existent.

I also realized I didn't once mentions specifically what I thought on the topic, I think war needs (and all other jobs) reworking in an extreme, and things like dLVL + all stats effects on things needs to be examined. I mean come on 900 def and I get hit for 2k by a mob "just" cause it's 10 levels above me, but and EM mob does 90, finaldmg = dmg_formula * dLVL, that's fk'd.

So....only change is Block Rate is better apparently.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Another post that just helps show my point. Designed toward war whm blm...
There's literally thousands of posts about this kind of design and unbalance.

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Aye, I agreed with your point and knew exactly what your talking about, but content that can equally punish ranged attackers/mages as much as close ranged makes it more "realistic" for parties to bring out a variety of jobs even though I know class stacking will still happen regardless due to player stigma.

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Talking base weapon dmg here, WAR has the highest to date by 20. Which means that a WAR geared for DDing should be able to post higher numbers than any other job since they would have the highest dmg cap ... Was also /quote ing a post that I couldn't re-find(I was being lazy) but the formula does support WAR as the single most powerful DD

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Aye the base damage of the weapon makes the largest difference in a players damage and literally overshadows other stats configuring damage (not saying other stats are unnecessary). WAR can have the highest potential barring AoE damage, but in some cases when tanking where it's unwise to turn a mob they can't always utilize their Godsblade or Whirlwind combos to step up the damage, but get into a situation where they can and just go all out DD WAR can be a beast like MNK/DRG DPS wise.

Case in point, I was tanking Ifrit and he was being Eruption happy post hellfire and got lucky and took out the group of BLMs. So I literally spent five or so minutes soloing the last 20% of his health on my own...

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Talking base weapon dmg here, WAR has the highest to date by 20. Which means that a WAR geared for DDing should be able to post higher numbers than any other job since they would have the highest dmg cap ... Was also /quote ing a post that I couldn't re-find(I was being lazy) but the formula does support WAR as the single most powerful DD

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But that's all in theory, try parsing a run and any competent MNK or DRG will outdamage the WAR by a bit.

Still, they do too much damage considering their tank capabilities, I think we can all agree on that.

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Originally Posted by Enfarious

Talking base weapon dmg here, WAR has the highest to date by 20. Which means that a WAR geared for DDing should be able to post higher numbers than any other job since they would have the highest dmg cap ... Was also /quote ing a post that I couldn't re-find(I was being lazy) but the formula does support WAR as the single most powerful DD

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Yes, let's only focus on the base damage and ingore the delay, weaponskills, all other class/job abilities and the fact that a tanking War is not able to fully gear towards damage dealing, because he's in tanking gear.

Grats Pld btw on the block increase towards higher level mobs.

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Originally Posted by Colino

But that's all in theory, try parsing a run and any competent MNK or DRG will outdamage the WAR by a bit.

Still, they do too much damage considering their tank capabilities, I think we can all agree on that.

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This is what i do not like "by a bit" dragoon and monk should have the highest DPS compared to any other melee class. No one uses dragoon at the moment because other classes out class them in the damage department. A dragoons armor is as bad as a BLM also they honestly really need to rework some of the classes so people are willing to use all different sorts of classes more....

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Originally Posted by Vonleo

No one uses dragoon at the moment because other classes out class them in the damage department.

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?? Drg and monk are on par in damage. Mnk might be alittle better but drgs do good damage. Against Moogle atleast, and thats pretty much all we have

So shields got buffed. XD

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Originally Posted by Vonleo

This is what i do not like "by a bit" dragoon and monk should have the highest DPS compared to any other melee class.

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By that a meant QUITE a bit. Not immensely, but MNK and DRG outdamage them fair and square.

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Originally Posted by Vonleo

No one uses dragoon at the moment because other classes out class them in the damage department.

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I greatly dissagree, DRG and MNK are about even in damage. I do agree what DRG is way too squishy for his own good though. It's also IMO a very boring job and despite me being a dedicated Lancer since launch I've switched to BRD just because it's much more interesting/fun to play.