The toxicity starting to happen.

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Originally Posted by tdb

A couple of weeks ago when I was leveling GNB it was a pretty common occurrence to wipe to a trash pull before the first boss in leveling roulette. I have a good connection so it's not that. Couldn't have been gear either since it happened in dungeons where I was far above sync level. Hard to say if the reason was me failing to use my cooldowns properly or the healer being either surprised at getting a big pull in a leveling dungeon or just inexperienced.

I'm still not sure if it's me or the healer when my health drops unexpectedly fast in expert dungeons, but there haven't been any wipes. Got any tips for someone who's still relatively new to tanking?

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I think tanking is the friendlier of the two support roles in terms of what you can bring to a run because you're more limited than a healer.

You know your gear is good so beyond that there are a few things you can do to ensure success to the best if your ability.

• Make sure you've got threat. If a healer is getting punched they may get interrupted, if that's during a crucial GCD heal it might mean death. You can also try to aim enemies away from your party/healers specifically but this can be hard with WHM and SCH since they should be centered in the pack for their AoEs.
• Don't take avoidable damage. The simple part is avoiding the bad stuff on the ground (which can really chunk you!) but this can also mean using Interject appropriately (the frogs in the level 73 dungeon come to mind,the empower other enemies if not silenced) and stunning if you don't have a WHM. You can stun an enemy to cancel a ground AoE but you can also just stun an enemy when it's not casting anything to make it lose a few auto attacks. Every bit helps.
• Rotate CDs properly. This can vary by tank. I don't use Holmgang or LD in dungeons much personally, not unless I know the healer, but HG and Bolide are great to get on CD fast. From there I walk back through your 2min bigboi CDs (Vengance/Sentinel/Nebula/Shadow Wall) and then break into smaller things. If you have a WHM give them a chance to Holy, no need to waste a big CD when the enemies are going to be doing nothing for like 10 seconds of it. Feel free to use your party mitigation too if appropriate, many of them also benefit you. Don't forget about Arm's Length and Reprisal! They're godly on trash now.
• Access damage and healing effects to the best of your ability. Keep enemies in Doton when you can, make sure you're within the range of Asylum/Earthly Star/Sacred Soil. I've been counting on my big Star pop to save a tank before only to watch him step out at the last second, it feels awful since sometimes there's nothing you can do.

I hope these help out!

If you're doing all that and you still die it's either a healer issue (bad/bad gear/bad connection) or if things are taking absolutely forever to die it might be on the dps. If you and the healer are both doing your basics though you won't be wiping on trash.

(Also I totally should be using Holmgamg probably, I know they buffed the duration forever ago. I will pop it in an emergency just like LD but for some reason in the heat of the moment my brain still thinks of it as a short duration CD. Bleh.)

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Originally Posted by Mixt

This may come as a surprise, but there are some pulls out there that are just flat out dangerous.

Like the one in Ala Mhigo between the first and second boss.

Or That One Damned Pull in Hell's Lid.

And then there's the infamous tank killer before the second boss in The Twinning, especially if you do it early on, fresh out of clearing the Shadowbringers MSQ with no extra gear to soften the impact. That brings back some unpleasant memories.

Or the last pull in The Burn, right before the Mist Dragon. Those freaking worms...

And a few others.

Having any of those forced on you when you are not prepared for them...it can go real bad.

"No don't! This particular pull is-"

"LEEEEEERRRROOOOYYY JEEEENNNNKIIIIINNNNSSSS!"

"Ah hell"

*Wipe*

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Other than the worm one which never struck me as particularly impressive you're just listing some of my favorite pulls.

God, that Ala Mhigo one was amazing. My friend was tanking that our first run ever and we had agreed to always go as far as we could to find out what the limits were... so, so spicy. I love it.

This may come as a surprise, but there are some pulls out there that are just flat out dangerous.

Like the one in Ala Mhigo between the first and second boss.

Or That One Damned Pull in Hell's Lid.

And then there's the infamous tank killer before the second boss in The Twinning, especially if you do it early on, fresh out of clearing the Shadowbringers MSQ with no extra gear to soften the impact. That brings back some unpleasant memories.

Or the last pull in The Burn, right before the Mist Dragon. Those freaking worms...

And a few others.

Having any of those forced on you when you are not prepared for them...it can go real bad.

"No don't! This particular pull is-"

"LEEEEEERRRROOOOYYY JEEEENNNNKIIIIINNNNSSSS!"

"Ah hell"

*Wipe*

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Originally Posted by Mixt

This may come as a surprise, but there are some pulls out there that are just flat out dangerous.

Like the one in Ala Mhigo between the first and second boss.

Or That One Damned Pull in Hell's Lid.

And then there's the infamous tank killer before the second boss in The Twinning, especially if you do it early on, fresh out of clearing the Shadowbringers MSQ with no extra gear to soften the impact. That brings back some unpleasant memories.

Or the last pull in The Burn, right before the Mist Dragon. Those freaking worms...

And a few others.

Having any of those forced on you when you are not prepared for them...it can go real bad.

"No don't! This particular pull is-"

"LEEEEEERRRROOOOYYY JEEEENNNNKIIIIINNNNSSSS!"

"Ah hell"

*Wipe*

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"Oh no, a few bad pulls. Welp, guess I should stick to single pulls for the rest of the game, till I quit or the servers are turned off."

Are you the devil sitting at the shoulder of every tank who claims to suffer from "tankxiety"?

Is it really that hard to just compromise? This whole thread just seems to be people screeching at ‘my way or no way’ at each other?

Why not both? A dungeon can be done quickly while still giving people breathing room. Pulling more than one group at a time as tank and causing a wipe by accident isn’t a big deal, it just means you know what not to do next time. And even if you don’t that’s ok. If a healer says they’re not comfortable with dps’ing does it really matter if they just keep up DoTs or overuse healing gcds? If the healer decides to go full pure dps then does it really matter if nobody dies?

Not everyone has the same skill level or investment in their performance. Not everyone has the same perception of what makes a ‘good run’, or a ‘good player’. Sometimes people just flat out mess up. People are different. Sometimes they’re average, sometimes they’re exceptional, sometimes they’re statistical outliers that nobody can explain lol. Why do we have to keep arguing about ‘tanks should do this’ or ‘dps should never do that’? What’s wrong just accepting our differences and trying to compromise? If one person says they want the dungeon to go fast but the tank isn’t comfortable, what’s wrong with them just taking one extra mob group than every group between them and the next wall

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Originally Posted by Connor

Is it really that hard to just compromise? This whole thread just seems to be people screeching at ‘my way or no way’ at each other?

Why not both? A dungeon can be done quickly while still giving people breathing room. Pulling more than one group at a time as tank and causing a wipe by accident isn’t a big deal, it just means you know what not to do next time. And even if you don’t that’s ok. If a healer says they’re not comfortable with dps’ing does it really matter if they just keep up DoTs or overuse healing gcds? If the healer decides to go full pure dps then does it really matter if nobody dies?

Not everyone has the same skill level or investment in their performance. Not everyone has the same perception of what makes a ‘good run’, or a ‘good player’. Sometimes people just flat out mess up. People are different. Sometimes they’re average, sometimes they’re exceptional, sometimes they’re statistical outliers that nobody can explain lol. Why do we have to keep arguing about ‘tanks should do this’ or ‘dps should never do that’? What’s wrong just accepting our differences and trying to compromise? If one person says they want the dungeon to go fast but the tank isn’t comfortable, what’s wrong with them just taking one extra mob group than every group between them and the next wall

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People here have a tendency to stick to black and white thinking, where something is either the best thing ever or literally the worst. You're either good or a "troglodyte". There is no in between on the official forums, my friend.

It would benefit a lot of them to just relax more. Outside of Savage and Ultimate, there really isn't any reason to be 100% efficient besides personal choice. No wonder they're crabby all the time.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Is it really that hard to just compromise? This whole thread just seems to be people screeching at ‘my way or no way’ at each other?

Why not both? A dungeon can be done quickly while still giving people breathing room. Pulling more than one group at a time as tank and causing a wipe by accident isn’t a big deal, it just means you know what not to do next time. And even if you don’t that’s ok. If a healer says they’re not comfortable with dps’ing does it really matter if they just keep up DoTs or overuse healing gcds? If the healer decides to go full pure dps then does it really matter if nobody dies?

Not everyone has the same skill level or investment in their performance. Not everyone has the same perception of what makes a ‘good run’, or a ‘good player’. Sometimes people just flat out mess up. People are different. Sometimes they’re average, sometimes they’re exceptional, sometimes they’re statistical outliers that nobody can explain lol. Why do we have to keep arguing about ‘tanks should do this’ or ‘dps should never do that’? What’s wrong just accepting our differences and trying to compromise? If one person says they want the dungeon to go fast but the tank isn’t comfortable, what’s wrong with them just taking one extra mob group than every group between them and the next wall

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No need to take it seriously. The community inside the game doesnt reflect what you see here, obviously people some times will do slow cause sometimes there is reasoning behind it, like i dont really ask for people to pull more i just accept it by being dead inside. Its just that forum wise there is this notion that going slowly and playing less buttons is this super secret chill gameplay style that people just dont understand that pisses on most people porridge. People arent dumb they know laziness when they see it , its when they try to pass it as something else that a fight will occur. You can be tired and just want to take it slowly that one time , sure i dont mind lets just go slowly , it will be boring but thats on SE more than on the slow pull from the tank.

To me it doesnt have to be one way or the other.

The first pull, i will gauge how the team is performing. If we are not struggling, then i will pull wall to wall the next pull. Otherwise, break it up into 2. And depends on the dungeon as well.

It doesnt have to be black and white. Adjust according to party and situation and dungeon. That’s it.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

"Oh no, a few bad pulls. Welp, guess I should stick to single pulls for the rest of the game, till I quit or the servers are turned off."

Are you the devil sitting at the shoulder of every tank who claims to suffer from "tankxiety"?

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I read it as there are times when people doing big pulls should be more cautious about it, that's all.

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Originally Posted by Hycinthus

To me it doesnt have to be one way or the other.

The first pull, i will gauge how the team is performing. If we are not struggling, then i will pull wall to wall the next pull. Otherwise, break it up into 2. And depends on the dungeon as well.

It doesnt have to be black and white. Adjust according to party and situation and dungeon. That’s it.

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This is my approach.

Heck last night I played in Aurum Vale with 2 DPS that, for some inexplicable reason I don't understand, refuse to use AOEs throughout the entire dungeon, lol. I had no choice but to pull small in that scenario, since the poor healer actually apologized when things went sour but it's not their fault at all.

I dont think you have been able to overpull for a loooooong time now, even the rare triple pull they allow us every now and then was doable the moment the dungeon was released.
The last "problematic" pull we had was in bardams mettle and before that ... prolly below lv 50 stuff.

Its become a more or less unwritten rule of dutyfinder that if you are 50+ you pull 2 sets or more. As a Tank and healer i can ensure you that if you pull single sets, you might as well go tank and 3 dps because the healer is gonna throw a regen/fairy (or equal) and just dps.

AoE just makes dungeons much faster and while yes its true we have like an hour to finish a dungeon ... that doesnt mean you are expected to spend all that time in it, Guildhests take 1-4 min and have the same timelimit.

Its always the same, DF expects the meta and if you are unwilling, players will look at you funny, and that Meta is woosh the Dungeon. You dont need to do that there is always Partyfinder in which you can state what you goal is before you enter with randos, or you ask your FC mates.

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Originally Posted by Doozer

People here have a tendency to stick to black and white thinking, where something is either the best thing ever or literally the worst. You're either good or a "troglodyte". There is no in between on the official forums, my friend.

It would benefit a lot of them to just relax more. Outside of Savage and Ultimate, there really isn't any reason to be 100% efficient besides personal choice. No wonder they're crabby all the time.

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Based on the fact that I'm the only person around that I see referring to people as troglodytes I'll take this as a passive aggressive subtweet at me.

I will need to put together a burning man glam because of the huge freaking strawman you've built. No wonder you're so combative all the time if you think the only play people deem acceptable is the "best ever" that would be incredibly disheartening.

I just posted a giant "tank basics" post in this same damn page for someone who admitted they were having troubles, complete with reassurance that it might not be their fault as well. Does that track in line with the brush you're trying to paint me (and other people with standards) with? No.

Seems to me the grumpy and uncompromising side is the one who won't even try to do better. I'll take deaths and wipes to people learning and trying to broaden their horizons, you guys are the ones saying to baby pull dungeons because ohno you might have to spend a few hundred more gil on repairs.

Toxicity has always been there. It's not a new thing. We've got a pretty good community overall.

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Originally Posted by Floortank

Toxicity has always been there. It's not a new thing. We've got a pretty good community overall.

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I would say painfully average.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Easiest way to solve this is to turn off tank stance and pull large and tell the healer to use their pro leet heals to keep everyone alive or just randomly shirk you aggro to the healer for laughs.

I DESPISE healers that want to pretend they know how to tank.

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Poor healers, we black mages already tell them to adjust. Not going to be room for DPSing haha

Most of this wouldn't be an issue if the tank just asks at the start of the dungeon, "are we all good with big pulls?" Then the group can say yes or no i am not comfortable with doing big pulls just yet. If you as a tank arent comfortable with big pulls then let the group know when you start the dungeon. Hey i am just not yet comfortable with big pulls, going to do smaller ones. (Though i would say to tanks and healers, that are not comfortable with big pulls to keep trying it out. You wont just all of a sudden be good at it over night, you need to get in there and try it out. If you struggle just get up brush yourself off and get back at it.) That way everyone is on the same page. But I know, I know, it's to scary to talk in party chat. So we will just stay silent and then get upset when something doesn't go the way we think it should. The other party members should be able to read our mind, why aren't they doing that..

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Make sure you've got threat. If a healer is getting punched they may get interrupted, if that's during a crucial GCD heal it might mean death. You can also try to aim enemies away from your party/healers specifically but this can be hard with WHM and SCH since they should be centered in the pack for their AoEs.

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That's a given. I mean, holding threat is the entire point of being a tank. Sometimes I might not hit everything with my AoEs while pulling but I'll gather any stragglers when I get to the kill position. Aggro ripping occasionally happens but I generally notice and correct the situation quickly. And it's usually a DPS ripping aggro when I've switched to single target but am attacking a different mob.

Aiming the enemies away from the party is not always easy due to dodging attacks and large packs of enemies tending to surround me, but I do it when I can. Also I try to not move the enemies around too much if I have melee dps. Unless there's fire on the ground in which case I try to move them so the melee can safely attack them.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Don't take avoidable damage. The simple part is avoiding the bad stuff on the ground (which can really chunk you!) but this can also mean using Interject appropriately (the frogs in the level 73 dungeon come to mind,the empower other enemies if not silenced) and stunning if you don't have a WHM. You can stun an enemy to cancel a ground AoE but you can also just stun an enemy when it's not casting anything to make it lose a few auto attacks. Every bit helps.

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I do my best to avoid AoEs, though it can result in some crazy running around if the entire pack of mobs is doing AoEs (a couple of pulls in Sohm Al come to mind, as well as pretty much the entire Heroes Gauntlet). If I know a particular enemy is doing something worth interrupting, I'll prepare to interrupt it by keeping that enemy targeted. It takes some time to learn what to interrupt in each dungeon though. I wasn't aware of the Fuath's buff before seeing it mentioned a couple times recently. I don't remember offhand what its cast time is; in some cases I've noticed an enemy using an interruptable ability but it's like a half second cast so I have no realistic chance to interrupt it.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Rotate CDs properly. This can vary by tank. I don't use Holmgang or LD in dungeons much personally, not unless I know the healer, but HG and Bolide are great to get on CD fast. From there I walk back through your 2min bigboi CDs (Vengance/Sentinel/Nebula/Shadow Wall) and then break into smaller things. If you have a WHM give them a chance to Holy, no need to waste a big CD when the enemies are going to be doing nothing for like 10 seconds of it. Feel free to use your party mitigation too if appropriate, many of them also benefit you. Don't forget about Arm's Length and Reprisal! They're godly on trash now.

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This is the part I'm most uncertain about. Nebula, Rampart and Camouflage have long enough cooldowns that they're only available on every other pull. So I figure I shouldn't use all of them on the same pull. Reprisal and Heart of Stone can be used on every pull, HoS often even twice, so I'm using those as filler after the bigger CDs have been spent (at which point the mobs have hopefully been thinned out).

I hadn't noticed that Arm's Length also gives slow to enemies. Now I have to find a place for it on my quickbars which are already too full.

Superbolide is a difficult one since it sets my HP to 1. I definitely don't want to use it from near full health since that just creates extra work for the healer. But if I try to save it for an emergency I may end up using it too late and die anyway. It's honestly the most disappointing of all the invuln abilities due to the self-damage. At least Holmgang and Living Dead can be safely used just in case, even if they can't come close to the OPness of Hallowed Ground.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Access damage and healing effects to the best of your ability. Keep enemies in Doton when you can, make sure you're within the range of Asylum/Earthly Star/Sacred Soil. I've been counting on my big Star pop to save a tank before only to watch him step out at the last second, it feels awful since sometimes there's nothing you can do.

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Yeah, there's so many tanks who just ignore Eartly Star in particular. It doesn't help that the sparkling ring near ground is much less noticeable than the huge domes of Asylym and Sacred Soil. If I see any area effects from my party I try to move myself and/or the enemies to them as appropriate (or not move away from them if I'm already in). Enemy AoEs happen though so sometimes I'm forced to move away at just the wrong moment.

Edit: Added some things.

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Originally Posted by tdb

This is the part I'm most uncertain about. Nebula, Rampart and Camouflage have long enough cooldowns that they're only available on every other pull. So I figure I shouldn't use all of them on the same pull. Reprisal and Heart of Stone can be used on every pull, HoS often even twice, so I'm using those as filler after the bigger CDs have been spent (at which point the mobs have hopefully been thinned out).

I hadn't noticed that Arm's Length also gives slow to enemies. Now I have to find a place for it on my quickbars which are already too full.

Superbolide is a difficult one since it sets my HP to 1. I definitely don't want to use it from near full health since that just creates extra work for the healer. But if I try to save it for an emergency I may end up using it too late and die anyway. It's honestly the most disappointing of all the invuln abilities due to the self-damage. At least Holmgang and Living Dead can be safely used just in case, even if they can't come close to the OPness of Hallowed Ground.

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You're pretty much there with cooldown usage. Learning to adjust based on kill speed is a skill you'll gain over time but I personally like to stagger my cooldowns so I'm at about ~30% mitigation for the start and middle of a pull when the most enemies are alive, and then dwindle down a little near the end as enemies die. Generally this means using one medium cooldown (Rampart, Arm's Length etc.) + one small cooldown (Reprisal, Aurora etc.), or one large cooldown. (your 30% or your invuln). Mitigate as best you can during the high damage periods and then hold a little when you know you're safe.

As for Superbolide, it's definitely awkward but it's actually the second most useable one in dungeons - one idea is to set up a Macro you can hit which will announce you plan to use Superbolide as your first cooldown next pull, and then hit pop Superbolide around ~25% - you don't need to be 100% optimal, and it lets the healer know they don't have to use anything on you except to get you back to full. Honestly, the most important quality a tank can have is a willingness to learn so you'll be fine - out of interest, what were the trash pulls that wiped you while levelling?

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Originally Posted by phantomr23

out of interest, what were the trash pulls that wiped you while levelling?

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Hmm, it's been a while so let's see what I can remember.

One was in Holminster Switch - I pulled up to the first wall and we wiped pretty soon. I noticed the healer died first but I'm pretty sure I had aggro from everything, so maybe it was an AoE avoidance failure? After barely surviving the second attempt someone commented that we don't have enough dps so I scaled down to single pulls for the rest of the dungeon. In this case I was Lv71 with i390-ish gear so not quite synced, but I think close enough that double pulls should be possible if the rest of the party was up to the task.

Another was Sohm Al, the second pull with two of those tall plants. I'm honestly not sure what happened there, but after everyone had revived I was able to pull the rest of the dungeon normally.

Then there was one in Great Gubal Library, I think the first pull after the first boss. I seem to recall the healer blaming this on bad luck and getting constantly targeted by the book (which can't be tanked) and having their heals interrupted. Maybe dps failure for not focusing the book?

I think there was also one in Sirensong Sea, on the pull right after getting off the ship. Don't really remember what happened there, and I'm not sure if it even was a complete wipe. But again I was able to double pull the rest of the run just fine, including the part with the coffin dude.

There may have been others which I've forgotten.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

I'll be honest, I see less toxicity in game then people complain about online (only the occasional elitist or troll) and I see MORE toxicity on places like Reddit.

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I've always said the in-game community is way better than the forums or social media. These forums, like all MMO forums, suck. And Reddit is 99% fan art and cosplay. If you actually want to discuss the game you get downvoted and it never makes it out of /new.

Also, I find it hilarious that posts 5 and 6 in this thread completely proved the OP's point about toxicity. It's almost like they entirely missed the point about the tank being brand new.

Yeah, people suck. It's on full display right there.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Based on the fact that I'm the only person around that I see referring to people as troglodytes I'll take this as a passive aggressive subtweet at me.

I will need to put together a burning man glam because of the huge freaking strawman you've built. No wonder you're so combative all the time if you think the only play people deem acceptable is the "best ever" that would be incredibly disheartening.

I just posted a giant "tank basics" post in this same damn page for someone who admitted they were having troubles, complete with reassurance that it might not be their fault as well. Does that track in line with the brush you're trying to paint me (and other people with standards) with? No.

Seems to me the grumpy and uncompromising side is the one who won't even try to do better. I'll take deaths and wipes to people learning and trying to broaden their horizons, you guys are the ones saying to baby pull dungeons because ohno you might have to spend a few hundred more gil on repairs.

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This is the FFXIV forums, the place where people post about nerfing shinryu 2 years after release, reeeeee about Mist Dragon because MSQ should be brain dead. An effort was made *pet pet* you're talking to a wall of bad though frien

Starting?? LOL! I remember before HW launched I was a noob in Tokorak that got completely roasted and kicked because I got lost. Seriously you guys have rose colored glasses.

I think my only bad experience so far was the Moogle boss fight. I really really hate when people try to tell me what to do. Like you can suggest, you can say "hey, we should do this as a plan". But if you immediately start with the orders... and try to tell me how to play as a superior elitest? Yeah no. I don't take orders. -_-.

There's a difference between being a leader to help, and commanding like you're a drill sergeant. Other players aren't your army.

Also, I have my own play style, rather than the complicated charts and diagrams others use. I play my class with what works for me.

The only other times were some parties uncoordinated. But I chalked it up to being new, or unfamiliar and just tried my best to help.

Just started? Always been a thing. Especially if you bring up something constructive about the game.

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Originally Posted by Daniolaut

More WoW "refugees' and less FFXI "refugees."

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less XI players? I'm a 10+ year old XI player and i'm not sure i follow you here.

Man...Reading this thread and reading why you shouldn't do big pulls has made my brain collapse in on itself...

Why do people make it sound like big pulling is like some raid level skill? You grab one pack run forward a bit and grab the next and start using your CDs, you even have one which stops you from completely dying in case things go really bad and can help the healer bring you back up crazy right? Healing single pulls is legit the worse feeling in this game, it's boring and makes me want to sleep and not play healer.

No wonder people meme on this place seeing some of the replies...

What you guys are missing is that this is not about being a tank, not about being any class in general. You can see the toxicity even in the way people respond to the thread posts here. The way they down talk, "mansplain" and give you elitisim. This forum is full of it, so is the game. Rare is it for me to have a encounter in dungeon or other wise that is at all positive with the influx of new players, which as stated, is expected in some cases. But it seems with the pandemic, the lack of things and places to go and do has lead to a lot of new players, who a lot of the times use jump potions, have no idea whats going on and have no idea how to play their class REGARDLESS of the class.

This leads us to a whole new group of "you don't pay my sub" mentality and "This game sucks, there's no story" - well ya when you use a jump potion and its your very first time ever. The typical "too slow" or "the combat sucks" is also starting to creep up. Running dungeons was fun, use to be wall to wall, now its 1 or two mobs at a time, in its self not bad. But when the tank has no idea what they're doing or the healer, god for bid you know how to play your class to any degree. The DPS just runs around with its head cut off, you wipe. you try and lead the party but its like herding angry cats with swords for claws.

The racism, sexism, homophobia in some dungeons and raids is beyond absord. The Constant attacks, you whipe half the party leave, you get castrum - half the party leaves. Before SHB and even during SHB i never witnessed this kind of toxicity in the amount I have in the last year or so. Reporting is useless, because I see the same person who said the N word in a party chat still in game.

6 months to a year ago you dealt with this, sure, on a small scale. Today, its all over the place.

Hope that clears things up and gets off the "learn to play your tank class" rant.

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Originally Posted by Remus

Man...Reading this thread and reading why you shouldn't do big pulls has made my brain collapse in on itself...

Why do people make it sound like big pulling is like some raid level skill? You grab one pack run forward a bit and grab the next and start using your CDs, you even have one which stops you from completely dying in case things go really bad and can help the healer bring you back up crazy right? Healing single pulls is legit the worse feeling in this game, it's boring and makes me want to sleep and not play healer.

No wonder people meme on this place seeing some of the replies...

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Yeah nevermind if the tank is like brand new or anything. They should be experts right away and do big massive pulls. Like, even if it's their very first time tanking.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

I think my only bad experience so far was the Moogle boss fight. I really really hate when people try to tell me what to do. Like you can suggest, you can say "hey, we should do this as a plan". But if you immediately start with the orders... and try to tell me how to play as a superior elitest? Yeah no. I don't take orders. -_-.

There's a difference between being a leader to help, and commanding like you're a drill sergeant. Other players aren't your army.

Also, I have my own play style, rather than the complicated charts and diagrams others use. I play my class with what works for me.

The only other times were some parties uncoordinated. But I chalked it up to being new, or unfamiliar and just tried my best to help.

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To be fair, the Moogle fight can be tricky if some moogles aren't killed first. Some of them are more dangerous than others.

That being said, now, it's not as important as it used to be, and I understand it can be frustrating to be told what to do (also there are ways to say things, so there's that!)

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Originally Posted by Lium

Yeah nevermind if the tank is like brand new or anything. They should be experts right away and do big massive pulls. Like, even if it's their very first time tanking.

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You don't need to be an expert tank to do big pulls. Dungeons are intro level content. If you are an expert tank then you are running savages/ultimates already not struggling with dungeons.

Back when I started trying to tank with DRK in Stormblood, I struggled with bosses, much less mobs. I had one instance in which a healer absolutely dead-arse refused to be rezzed because I was having a hard time learning how to tank after spending all my time since ARR as a DPS.

Toxic healers absolutely are a thing and they need to chill the eff out. If a tank is having trouble or feeling uneasy for whatever reason (new to tanking, learning a new dungeon, etc.), let them single-pull until they get the hang of it. Otherwise, stop playing healer if you're just gonna act like a Karen.

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Originally Posted by Seddrinth

You don't need to be an expert tank to do big pulls. Dungeons are intro level content. If you are an expert tank then you are running savages/ultimates already not struggling with dungeons.

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The point is someone new to tanking should not be expected to play at your comfort level. They should play at their own until they are more confident in their abilities. And if that does not suit you, you have three options:

1) Ask the tank to pull more.
2) Initiate a vote kick and hope it passes.
3) Leave the group or suck it up.

Attitudes like what's on display in your post is exactly what the OP is talking about. I will add this caveat: forums suck, so it's not surprising. In-game I have found the attitudes to be much more patient and inclusive in low level dungeons, though your mileage may vary. It's one of the reasons why FFXIV has a reputation for having one of the best communities in MMOs. Forums not withstanding.

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Originally Posted by Lium

Yeah nevermind if the tank is like brand new or anything. They should be experts right away and do big massive pulls. Like, even if it's their very first time tanking.

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People don't expect a level 45 Warrior in Stone Vigil to necessarily big pull. They do, however, expect it from a level 77 Malikah's Well, and absolutely so in Expert dungeons as a whole. You're no longer new by that point. And no, unlocking Gunbreaker or jump potions doesn't absolve you. The onus still remains on you to study and practice beforehand.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

People don't expect a level 45 Warrior in Stone Vigil to necessarily big pull. They do, however, expect it from a level 77 Malikah's Well, and absolutely so in Expert dungeons as a whole. You're no longer new by that point. And no, unlocking Gunbreaker or jump potions doesn't absolve you. The onus still remains on you to study and practice beforehand.

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The vast majority of tanks I get in-game from level 50 on up do big pulls. Sometimes I think the forums exaggerate this problem. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had a tank that only did single pulls, and that was because they were new and it was a low level dungeon. Those are the tanks I'm always quick to defend. As a DPS I greatly appreciate tanks because they basically run a bunch of strangers who they've never met through dungeons. And the last thing they need is toxic players telling them to "GO, GO, GO!" That gives me WoW nightmares.

It's bad enough having to sit in long queues as a DPS anyway. Toxic players will make those queues even longer because less tanks will be inclined to PUG dungeons based on their low level experiences.

So it bears repeating, if you have a problem with the tank, you have three options:

1) Ask the tank to pull more.
2) Initiate a vote kick and hope it passes.
3) Leave the group or suck it up.

Speaking of toxicity. This just happened in a party where my friend (Twisty) was new to this dungeon, and only my second time with it.
The healer, decided to bark orders (not explain, just "do this, do this, do this") and then made fun of my friend when he made a mistake.

Then before that, on the first boss of the dungeon I was one second too late in running out of the way and died and instead of raising or even ignoring, he decided to go "Lawl".

...As I said, trying to order your party around can be said a nicer way, and being a butt about it is toxic as well.

https://i.imgur.com/UVLtBAo.png

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

Speaking of toxicity. This just happened in a party where my friend (Twisty) was new to this dungeon, and only my second time with it.
The healer, decided to bark orders (not explain, just "do this, do this, do this") and then made fun of my friend when he made a mistake.

Then before that, on the first boss of the dungeon I was one second too late in running out of the way and died and instead of raising or even ignoring, he decided to go "Lawl".

...As I said, trying to order your party around can be said a nicer way, and being a butt about it is toxic as well.

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You're gonna have to edit out those names. Name and shame is against forum rules.

Also, sorry if this offends you but judging from what I see here, you're just taking it too personally. Idk, maybe you're expecting a "please and thank you" after every text typed but if it was me and we're in the middle of battle, I'm just going be very short and concise when it comes to mechs. Not everyone has the ability to rapidly write the full explanation behind a mech mid fight.

Maybe try reading texts in a neutral voice in your head. It helps.

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Originally Posted by Lium

The point is someone new to tanking should not be expected to play at your comfort level. They should play at their own until they are more confident in their abilities. And if that does not suit you, you have three options:

1) Ask the tank to pull more.
2) Initiate a vote kick and hope it passes.
3) Leave the group or suck it up.

Attitudes like what's on display in your post is exactly what the OP is talking about. I will add this caveat: forums suck, so it's not surprising. In-game I have found the attitudes to be much more patient and inclusive in low level dungeons, though your mileage may vary. It's one of the reasons why FFXIV has a reputation for having one of the best communities in MMOs. Forums not withstanding.

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What attitude are you talking about? I never harass anyone, not even tanks who dull small pulls. Like you said, I just vote kick but I'm not a jerk about it. It doesn't change the fact that dungeons are introductory content. We are not being unreasonable expecting tanks to pull more than single mob at a time. If it's really that fightening for the new tanks then they can always run the instance as dps first do see how other tanks go about their business or watch some guides/povs.

I just pull large, shirk the healer then initiate a vote kick. Healers need to learn their place.

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Originally Posted by SenorPatty

You're gonna have to edit out those names. Name and shame is against forum rules.

Also, sorry if this offends you but judging from what I see here, you're just taking it too personally. Idk, maybe you're expecting a "please and thank you" after every text typed but if it was me and we're in the middle of battle, I'm just going be very short and concise when it comes to mechs. Not everyone has the ability to rapidly write the full explanation behind a mech mid fight.

Maybe try reading texts in a neutral voice in your head. It helps.

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Edited.

And I expect niceness? For one 'hooked on phonics' is a pure insult.
Second, don't laugh because someone died, lag happens, being a second too slow happens.
Bad hand-eye coordination happens.
There are reasons people can't play as fast and elitist as others.

Second, if you're going to lead the party or be the one to give orders. Say "hey wait a minute" before the boss fight, and explain before it, then have people go in. Make yourself known, and be a leader. NOT a military commander.
Players who decide to just act like know-it-alls and command everything are not fun to play with. It's a game. We still beat the boss, didn't wipe. So have patience.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

I just pull large, shirk the healer then initiate a vote kick. Healers need to learn their place.

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Well, if a tank can't or won't hold aggro that is a very legit reason to vote kick as well.

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Originally Posted by Nekaru_Infitima

The healer, decided to bark orders (not explain, just "do this, do this, do this") and then made fun of my friend when he made a mistake.

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I must confess, sometimes I "bark orders" too, e.g. in this very Gubal, I would write now and then "drag orb to the boss!". This is purely because of little time given to write "hey, please" and other fancies.

So I would advice, maybe, not to take insult in such a militaresque way of explanations :-). In battle, time is essential. However, insults are something absolutely different and should never be tolerated.

I've honestly stopped signing in after 5pm every day. Quality of the playerbase goes so far into the pit I can't stand it at that point. This means I can only play on my days off of course... but I feel that if playing less time means more of my play time isn't frustrating and enraging, then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Keddera_StormMoon

I've honestly stopped signing in after 5pm every day. Quality of the playerbase goes so far into the pit I can't stand it at that point. This means I can only play on my days off of course... but I feel that if playing less time means more of my play time isn't frustrating and enraging, then so be it.

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It's kind of like Walmart. I avoid it after midnight.