I'm not excited about the future patch at all. Just one dungeon?

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Originally Posted by Omymy

Yeah, picking flowers wearing a bikini with 2b pants sounds like the ultimate content.

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If that's how you feel, you're entitled to that opinion.

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Originally Posted by linay

If that's how you feel, you're entitled to that opinion.

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Yeah?, thanks for the info, i really needed it.

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Originally Posted by Omymy

Yeah?, thanks for the info, i really needed it.

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You're welcome. :D

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Originally Posted by reivaxe

So it always erks me to see people whine about Eureka. Like .... wtf? You didn't "miss the boat", you can jump in there anytime you want. It's not like it was before but it's still popping in these times when the game doesn't have anything big or new to do. Friend of mine power leveled herself from 11 to 20 in a day, I got a whole 1 and 3/4ths weapon done in about a week recently ... you have no excuse other then not wanting to do it.

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Because it was talked about for quite some time by the devs, which made it look like the new big content of the expansion. What we got was something which is probably only truly fun for a very niche amount of people and on top of that had the relic weapon locked behind it. If we could have other ways to get the relic and if they may have cut down on the eureka content (maybe only two new zones instead of four) then people might have been less angry but for those who wanted to do relic they had to do Eureka (and the relic was worse with less interactions, less quests, less lore behind it and at the end even a worse weapon) and even if you found later zones theoretically fun you still had to do all the ones before that.

It was horrible for solo play, it was horrible to play with friends if they have not started at your level. It felt like another failed Diadem version and creating four new zones, a "dungeon" for this and all those new system probably took quite some manpower and time. All that for something that is niche content while those that are more casual still had nothing new for them. (And HoH also was cut down with less floors)

Two zones with mostly the mechanics of the last few zones. Better systems in place to play with others and not having the relic being forced into this...and you might have had people being way less negative about it..and the rest of the work could have gone in something more casual..which the majority of the playerbase is. (Who at that point already lost two dungeons..)

Content is what you make of the game, whether you're a hardcore raider who raids 20 hours a day or you gather herbs for crafting or you decorate or you help people with dungeons or you spend hours at the AH or you do fates all day. There's no point in acting like someone else's idea of content isn't actually content. We all derive pleasure from the game doing different things. That doesn't make one person's idea of content better than anyone else's. No need for pedestals here.

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Originally Posted by Omymy

Yeah, picking flowers wearing a bikini with 2b pants sounds like the ultimate content.

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This might come like a shock to you, but please be strong: Not everyone needs, wants or cares about "challenging" content or defines it as "fun". And now an even more shocking revelation: That's fine, even though your wanna-be snarky attitude may not comprehend this basic concept. That doesn't mean that, in an ideal virtual world, one group should be excluded over another. But yeah, it's not up to you decide what "ultimate cotent" is. Sorry.

I definitely understand not being happy with getting 1 dungeon instead of 2. Used to be every patch came with 2 dungeons. Then in SB it was 2 on even patches 1 on odd. Now it's just 1 per.

Dungeons however are just one part of the updates, and for me it's going to be more about what 5.2 as a whole brings.

I actually find this a bit odd. I mean, at least this means they have less armour they have to develop and fit to the races? But that whole argument is a bit iffy, because they already slapped a gender lock with this reason being stated why they really couldn't add another 'race' in. So, why do this unless they're planning on adding in another race down the line?

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

I actually find this a bit odd. I mean, at least this means they have less armour they have to develop and fit to the races?

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This change wouldn't affect number of gears. Any two dungeons that are released at the same time would share gears.

I'd like to see new content that's actually fresh. Not necessarily Eureka (though, I like it a lot), but something that's LASTING. Almost everything as far as I can tell gets used a few times and is then thrown away or made insultingly easy (like dungeons for that matter).

I'm all up for some experimentation till something sticks. Also, make something out of the nice looking but ultimately boring overworld.

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Originally Posted by linay

This change wouldn't affect number of gears. Any two dungeons that are released at the same time would share gears.

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Oh, I thought that each dungeon had a different gear set. More so for glamour really. Don't mind me, derp herp.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

This might come like a shock to you, but please be strong: Not everyone needs, wants or cares about "challenging" content or defines it as "fun". And now an even more shocking revelation: That's fine, even though your wanna-be snarky attitude may not comprehend this basic concept. That doesn't mean that, in an ideal virtual world, one group should be excluded over another. But yeah, it's not up to you decide what "ultimate cotent" is. Sorry.

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Well, not everyone comes here looking for likes or giving a super positive and tolerant image when we all know that absolutely no one is like that.

So take your message (that I don't care at all) and put it on your twitter, or on your homeopathy blog.

Sorry not sorry.

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Originally Posted by Mahoukenshi

Not everyone needs, wants or cares about "challenging" content or defines it as "fun".

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That's me. I raided hardcore for like 8 years and the satisfaction of kills just isn't worth the gear grind to me, let alone the potential for drama, the nightmare of recruitment, and the shackles of a raid schedule. I never knew how much I could enjoy an MMO until I stopped raiding a few years ago and I can't see myself ever going back to that. "Progression" and watching numbers go up incrementally every week just doesn't do it for me.

I'd rather be leveling my alts' crafts or re-furnishing my apartment with new furniture, so seeing such a wide variety of content in a patch is very exciting for me.

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Originally Posted by Sated

That's me. I raided hardcore for like 8 years and the satisfaction of kills just isn't worth the gear grind to me, let alone the potential for drama, the nightmare of recruitment, and the shackles of a raid schedule. I never knew how much I could enjoy an MMO until I stopped raiding a few years ago and I can't see myself ever going back to that. "Progression" and watching numbers go up incrementally every week just doesn't do it for me.

I'd rather be leveling my alts' crafts or re-furnishing my apartment with new furniture, so seeing such a wide variety of content in a patch is very exciting for me.

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When I was raiding elsewhere I enjoyed it, but it was because of the people. We raided mainly for the fun of it, not for progression bars. Sometimes it would be to help others get gear, but often we did it just to do it. We'd go into a dungeon even though nobody "needed" it for anything. It was an enjoyable experience because we all had the same attitude about it. If we approached it focusing only on getting certain loot or doing it only to get a certain amount of xp, which seems to be what a lot of people here focus on, we'd probably wouldn't have had nearly as much fun.

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Originally Posted by Sated

I never knew how much I could enjoy an MMO until I stopped raiding a few years ago and I can't see myself ever going back to that. "Progression" and watching numbers go up incrementally every week just doesn't do it for me.
I'd rather be leveling my alts' crafts or re-furnishing my apartment with new furniture, so seeing such a wide variety of content in a patch is very exciting for me.

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An example of many ways many different people can enjoy a game in a different way.
You keep doing what your doing and don't let anybody tell you its bad. If thats whats fun to you, thats whats important.

I used to a lot of raiding. I still enjoy it, but I dislike how clinical it has become. People rarely raid for fun and instead treat it like a second job. So I don't really bother with it these days. Japan is more successful at raid related content because the community comes together and ensures that fresh blood is brought on board. The EU/NA crowd is typically the opposite, poaching people from different statics and snubbing people who want to learn to raid. Exceptions do exist, of course, but I've yet to encounter a single static that wanted to train players from the ground up. Which is a shame, since more people raiding equals more chance of the development team designing more raid content.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I used to a lot of raiding. I still enjoy it, but I dislike how clinical it has become. People rarely raid for fun and instead treat it like a second job. So I don't really bother with it these days. Japan is more successful at raid related content because the community comes together and ensures that fresh blood is brought on board. The EU/NA crowd is typically the opposite, poaching people from different statics and snubbing people who want to learn to raid. Exceptions do exist, of course, but I've yet to encounter a single static that wanted to train players from the ground up. Which is a shame, since more people raiding equals more chance of the development team designing more raid content.

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Back in SWTOR many years ago, this is what exactly my guild used to do. First, we were fully aware how accidentally cliquey we could get so we always tried to include anyone willing to raid and we gave 0 shits about their skill level. Hell, that's what they did with me when I was recruited. Anyways, we took them on and we just trained them from the ground up all the while laughing and having fun doing it. We always encouraged one another to do better and push ourselves to be better at the next time. And if said new comer wasn't ready to try to raid? That was fine too. Thankfully, the game had a lot of open world content and planet instances to tackle and also rewarded guild players for it so there was that too.

The only thing I can say though is that all these things took time and I guess it just comes down to how much time people are willing to spare. Plus, another thing I have to be honest with is that we did this with guild members exclusively, since trying to do that with strangers had proven in the past to backfire really badly.

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Originally Posted by goob

When I was raiding elsewhere I enjoyed it, but it was because of the people. We raided mainly for the fun of it, not for progression bars.

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For sure - it's the only reason I stuck with raiding as long as I did was for the people I was playing with. Last time I looked for a group to raid with I deliberately picked one that was working on normal content to avoid getting back into "serious" progression, but with enough successes we soon found ourselves waist-deep in Mythic and myself having considerably less fun each week - would rather been doing other things with the same people.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I've yet to encounter a single static that wanted to train players from the ground up. Which is a shame, since more people raiding equals more chance of the development team designing more raid content.

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I only ever looked for groups like this. When looking for statics I always prioritized the people over progress, which was fine until the progress inevitably kicked in lol. It's refreshing to know JP takes a healthier approach to raiding in general, though.

The vocal/face of the NA raiding community is that your numbers are what matter - validation through individual performance. Live for the log. Link the achievement. If people enjoy that that's fine - I used to take pride in my ranks and logs too, it's just really hard for me to get excited about numbers anymore when there're so many other things to do.

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Originally Posted by linay

It's hard for me to discuss ideas as I'm very much content with what we have, so I'm not really looking for something else. In that sense, I'd rather leave it to the dev to "surprise and delight" with something new if and when they can, and then I'll decide once I get to know more about it.

The only thing I can address for now are things that I already know I don't want, like Mythic+.

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Then I'll borrow the usually tossed around line, "Don't partake in it then."

If you're content with the current amount of content, why does it matter if they go with Mythic+ inspired dungeons? You'll still have the content you prefer while others will have something they enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Sated

That's me. I raided hardcore for like 8 years and the satisfaction of kills just isn't worth the gear grind to me, let alone the potential for drama, the nightmare of recruitment, and the shackles of a raid schedule. I never knew how much I could enjoy an MMO until I stopped raiding a few years ago and I can't see myself ever going back to that. "Progression" and watching numbers go up incrementally every week just doesn't do it for me.

I'd rather be leveling my alts' crafts or re-furnishing my apartment with new furniture, so seeing such a wide variety of content in a patch is very exciting for me.

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Same here. I used to raid hardcore, but I started enjoying the game alot more when I took a more casual stance on it. I'm looking forward to the new variety. I just hope its a good variety.

I'm not that interested in the Raid scene. A lot of memorization and busy-work just to get gear to make that same memorization and busy-work a FRACTION easier to do. The rewards, to me, do not outweigh the hassle. Clearing it in Normal is appealing enough for me. Call me casual, idc.

I like dungeons, but I'm one of those weirdos that enjoys 24-man Raids the most out of all content. After completion, most Dungeons are really just on-rails mob fights designed to get exp and gear glam. To be honest I don't really mind them moving to a one-dungeon plan for future if they really are freeing up time for developing other innovative game additions.

HOWEVER...........If they free up ALL this HUGE dev time for other projects, and those other projects turn out to be nothing but a Eureka mob-grind clone and nothing else, I will be pretty angry with the game. The game needs innovation. We have enough time-wasting mindless activity.

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Originally Posted by Rasikko

I just wonder... how many years remaining I have in this game, til he turns it into a game I don't love anymore and end up unsubbing for good.

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Yet he is the one that turned it into the game you loved as well.

Keep in mind that many of us are here because WoW went through the same process. We loved that game - then Blizzard changed it and we couldn't tolerate it anymore while others were happy with the changes.

Players ask developers for new and engaging content because anything will get boring over time if repeated too often. Dungeons have definitely gotten stale because most players want the short and straight hallway to the reward at the end and so developers design them that way. The days of Blackrock Depths (for those who can remember it from pre-Cataclysm WoW) are over in MMOs. For me, dungeons are no more engaging than hunt trains are. They're both repetitions of killing the same bosses in the same places for the sake of the tomestone grind. At least with hunt trains, there's a chance they'll get derailed by a S rank spawn for some variety. Nothing derails the duty finder group tunneled visioned on getting to the dungeon exit.

So if SE has ideas for new content and needs to reduce the number of dungeons they create each patch in order to work on those ideas, I'm all for it. Hopefully they deliver something new that the majority of players, or close to it, will enjoy even if it turns out I'm not one of them. Or maybe experimenting with the creation of that new content will give them ideas on how to give dungeons a fresh new design that will make them more fun in the future. Progress frequently means trying something new and failing before starting over and succeeding.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Then I'll borrow the usually tossed around line, "Don't partake in it then."

If you're content with the current amount of content, why does it matter if they go with Mythic+ inspired dungeons? You'll still have the content you prefer while others will have something they enjoy.

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I already addressed this. It can affect dungeon design, reward structure, job design/balance, etc. Even if I don't partake in the actual content, I can still be affected by it.

If you really just want to run that type of content, make it like deep dungeon (or the masked carnival), one dungeon per expansion separated from and doesn't affect other content and make it job agnostic so it doesn't affect job design outside of it with its own reward structure or fitting the current structure. In fact, make it so that limited jobs like BLU can join in on the "fun" too.

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Originally Posted by linay

If you really just want to run that type of content, make it like deep dungeon (or the masked carnival), one dungeon per expansion separated from and doesn't affect other content and make it job agnostic so it doesn't affect job design outside of it with its own reward structure or fitting the current structure. In fact, make it so that limited jobs like BLU can join in on the "fun" too.

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I think BLU should be deleted from the game. :)

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Originally Posted by linay

That's fine. If your only idea for "challenging and progressive" content is Mythic+, then I have no reason to support that. That's not even a "broad set of improvements." That's just one type of content. Who says content has to be "progressive" anyway? I value being able to say "I am done" with a piece of content and wait for the next one and meanwhile either do something else in the game and/or play other game or do other things.

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Again, no one has even once asked for Mythic+, only a system that can accomplish something "like" what Mythic+ did. That is an incredibly "broad set" of options by which to expand midcore content, a frequently requested "improvement".

Progressive likewise does not mean limitless. It just means that you can start into it sooner and finish it later with finer increments of success, both more accessible and longer-lasting. It's the difference between a piece of content seeming directed solely at one group of players or another or challenging players to get as far as they can, pushing their own limits.

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Originally Posted by Alaeacus

I'm not that interested in the Raid scene. A lot of memorization and busy-work just to get gear to make that same memorization and busy-work a FRACTION easier to do. The rewards, to me, do not outweigh the hassle. Clearing it in Normal is appealing enough for me. Call me casual, idc.

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"Casual" to me is when one is not willing to invest much time or effort (or really time multiplied by the effort over that duration(?)) into the game. That's leagues different from a section of content not appealing to you. So, I've no reason to call you that. (Not that I'd mean the term as anything derogatory, anyways, unless you were arguing over theorycrafting without having even learned your potencies or arguing E4S strats without having been in it.)

Raids are, for me, hit and miss. I like challenge, but certain types of challenges far more than others. I like adapting to new circumstances, needing to be aware of my teammates, and to make intelligent compromises. XIV raids just rarely ever play into any of that. Instead, they are far more scripted, and while I can appreciate that kind of challenge, too, it rates so low for me that it's hardly worth rushing back home from work to get straight into raiding at the tail end of those latest times I can keep a static for given my shifts. So, I don't.

I don't mind the difficulty; it's just not a form of difficulty that appeals to me enough when the challenge isn't something in small enough increments to be reasonably PuGed. I'd rather see something that requires more focus but less memorization and thereby has each player operating nearer the feeling of winging the fight, where that fight has its unique challenges but few enough ideosyncracies or "gotcha" mechanics to memorize that a hugely competent team could theoretically one- to three-shot it.

I don't think I'm alone in that, either, given what a small section of players clear Savage, whether that be due to the stress or mere lack of joy found in that content. Yet the only other options we have are dungeons, which are still a snoozefest to much of that same group, and extreme primals, which are likewise punishing to non-veterans for a brief time and then may be a bit too easy thereafter.

(A brief addendum to the last post that is perhaps a little too tangential, relating more to general ideas about raiding instead...)

If the Raid Finder had ever really taken off and seen further improvements with time, instead of dying in its infancy, raiding might be far more appealing to me now in that it would have allowed for content to be tackled in more modular bits with fewer conflicts of interest, perspective, or experience.

Even in the first few weeks of a raid tier and subsequently lower item level, even an entirely blind PuG group might see enrage on its third or fourth pull, but dog forbid someone join an enrage half-static party, lag, and get hit by something simple; the party dismisses, reforms, one of the static's own then does the same only to have the PuG who notes it get kicked, drama intensifies, and the whole party disbands a wasted half-hour later. Worse, the more players drop out of raiding as drama and formation times increasingly overwhelms the fun of the fights themselves, those formation times only get worse which then puts everyone further on edge or forces more mixed groups which will likewise face more conflicts and therefore more drama.

Is there any way -- apart from asking the community to suddenly play more, play more nicely, and to always wait the extra time as needed to find the perfectly appropriate group -- we can make raiding more accessible without any changes to the fights themselves (or, obviously, to any of the jobs beyond their being better balanced as necessary)?

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Originally Posted by linay

I already addressed this. It can affect dungeon design, reward structure, job design/balance, etc. Even if I don't partake in the actual content, I can still be affected by it.

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Our dungeons are already identical to Mythic+ inspired dungeons except in that XIV's are less creative in their variety of pull sizes and diversity of mobs (via variety in mob strength and the strength of their skills and effects). We're already working from a far, far more constrained base.

If our dungeons were all alike to 1.x's Cutter's Cry, complete with the party being split up at certain points or having to navigate the shifting sand wormholes, that would be an issue. But we never had a dungeon that would uniquely make just a few jobs far stronger than they should be except perhaps the few dungeons where a particular immunity (usually Hallowed Ground, unless a boss is incredibly deadly, in which case the other HG) is perfectly timed to the benefits of speedruns.

Designing for multiple difficulties has only two concerns:

1. Making sure difficulty scales well by not using fixed damage mechanics (e.g. the same %HP regardless of difficulty) or letting issues slide like auto-attacks hitting at the same time as tankbusters (which might just randomly and unavoidably one-shot a tank at higher difficulties) and
2. Making sure no jobs are obligatory for the dungeon's completion or give a huge lead in speed over other compositions.

Those aren't huge constraints and would make no difference to our current dungeon designs. Our dungeons would have to actually be creative -- immensely so -- before it could have any impact on us.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

I think BLU should be deleted from the game. :)

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I think BLU needs to be Revamped so that it can be treated more like a regular class and join the others in content without the requirement of Closed Groups.
Or the new BLU only group content.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

I used to a lot of raiding. I still enjoy it, but I dislike how clinical it has become. People rarely raid for fun and instead treat it like a second job. So I don't really bother with it these days. Japan is more successful at raid related content because the community comes together and ensures that fresh blood is brought on board. The EU/NA crowd is typically the opposite, poaching people from different statics and snubbing people who want to learn to raid. Exceptions do exist, of course, but I've yet to encounter a single static that wanted to train players from the ground up. Which is a shame, since more people raiding equals more chance of the development team designing more raid content.

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I have similar but probably farther gone feelings about raiding, and it started in WoW lol. I just don't feel like "working" anymore in my gaming format, I understand that there are those who do, but not I.. and to be specific a particular form of that work.. Perhaps the Japanese scene would feel less annoying to get into and out of at will, making it less of a "yeah no thanks" moment, but at least to me just all the hassle and drama that goes into that space it really does, to me, feel like another form of work. It's not worth it to me, and it's not because of lack of skill (not that I'm a god but I can definitely hop in and out of raid content, having done it a few times).

I love hard content, but I just like it when it's both fair and on my own (HUGE souls fan for example, ghost mode mod your witcher 3, etc). As soon as it's with other players though I feel like I'm getting ready for a group school project, which again at least with "west" experience is like... god no teacher just give me an individual assignment lol. This is why I personally love DF and the content DF is allowed to join, it could be moderately challenging (afk, leaving, new, or "you don't pay my sub" players) but it's seldom like doing a group project in school (obviously because most of the harder stuff isn't even accessible lol).

This is probably honestly one of the major reasons why I am so negatively against the Blue Mage direction (though there are a few), heading very clearly towards group project content (which is both fine in that not everything is designed for one person to enjoy, but also sad because I know I'd have loved a real blue mage a lot more than a limited one, and I would have loved a limited but high solo power and focused one a lot more over a group limited one, so what "I'm getting" feels like to me "the worst possible option"). I'm not too shocked some people are enjoying it when they do have a group of friends ready for action, but as someone with the least fixed schedule (and partly because I've no interest in fixing my game schedule to set times) and few consistent friends that also play blue mage- makes the content's better parts (instanced content you've to run very large number of times or sync with the few doing it, fewer as time goes on) basically dead on arrival (the interesting parts at least) if I don't rush when it's hot new content.

I want more dungeons again.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Again, no one has even once asked for Mythic+, only a system that can accomplish something "like" what Mythic+ did. That is an incredibly "broad set" of options by which to expand midcore content, a frequently requested "improvement".

Progressive likewise does not mean limitless. It just means that you can start into it sooner and finish it later with finer increments of success, both more accessible and longer-lasting. It's the difference between a piece of content seeming directed solely at one group of players or another or challenging players to get as far as they can, pushing their own limits.

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Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Our dungeons are already identical to Mythic+ inspired dungeons except in that XIV's are less creative in their variety of pull sizes and diversity of mobs (via variety in mob strength and the strength of their skills and effects). We're already working from a far, far more constrained base.

If our dungeons were all alike to 1.x's Cutter's Cry, complete with the party being split up at certain points or having to navigate the shifting sand wormholes, that would be an issue. But we never had a dungeon that would uniquely make just a few jobs far stronger than they should be except perhaps the few dungeons where a particular immunity (usually Hallowed Ground, unless a boss is incredibly deadly, in which case the other HG) is perfectly timed to the benefits of speedruns.

Designing for multiple difficulties has only two concerns:

1. Making sure difficulty scales well by not using fixed damage mechanics (e.g. the same %HP regardless of difficulty) or letting issues slide like auto-attacks hitting at the same time as tankbusters (which might just randomly and unavoidably one-shot a tank at higher difficulties) and
2. Making sure no jobs are obligatory for the dungeon's completion or give a huge lead in speed over other compositions.

Those aren't huge constraints and would make no difference to our current dungeon designs. Our dungeons would have to actually be creative -- immensely so -- before it could have any impact on us.

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Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

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Originally Posted by linay

Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

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FFXIV dungeons are just wall to wall, enemies without mechanics (you event need to apply CCs). What are you talking about.

Even the bosses are a joke.

I'm okay with one dungeon if it means we get more fun filled ones, especially with revisiting. Based on what we know from pictures it seems like a spectacle where a lot of time and effort was put into making the zone. That alone gets me more interested in it since it's a lot of stuff to take in each time we run through.

Not knocking the dungeons we had in 4.x but the odd numbered ones where there was specifically one dungeon had a lot more going on. Skalla, Swallow's Compass, Ghimlyt Dark all had some amazing set pieces and really added to the zones. Meanwhile if you look at 4.2 and 4.4 it's way more reused assets and the dungeons blend into each other. If you go on the youtube comments for a video showing off the music for Hell's Lid some of the comments are just "Sohm Al HM 2.0". That's not something I'd like to put on a dungeon I just made lmao. Hard Modes are a given but they do show that more of the assets are reused which in turn leads to "Meh".

More so than dungeons we're getting an extra trial instead, which will be great since it turn means another EX, so more options for the battle team to make some great fights and flesh out our experiences. I'm sad that dungeons are being cut to one, but if it allows other content I'm going to run more actively be a constant I'm okay with taking that cut.

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Originally Posted by Omymy

FFXIV dungeons are just wall to wall, enemies without mechanics (you event need to apply CCs). What are you talking about.

Even the bosses are a joke.

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I didn't say anything about the difficulty of the enemies, so what's your point?

I'm not terribly excited about the patch either, for different reasons.

To address dungeons. Dungeons, in their current form, are the biggest waste of development money. They are consumed very quickly, are not challenging in the slightest, and the lion's share of them are abandoned unless you happen to get them in a leveling roulette. I also love dungeons, so don't think I'm hating on them, but because they're so under utilized, until something like a Mythic+ system comes in, we're better off with less.

As for the rest of the patch: while the content appears good, it's all content that will be consumed within a week, and if you care to do it more than once, you'll be done within a couple hours on subsequent reset nights. This is my biggest problem with FF XIV right now. It's an amazing game, but very little, if any, of the content has any longevity, and it's certainly not enough to justify the $12.99 USD sub.

I really wish we would see more not mind-numbing boring content (looking at you Eureka and Deep Dungeon) that lasts more than a couple hours.

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Originally Posted by linay

Well if you can clarify what you mean, then I can reserve judgment.

Actually, let me just clarify what I don't like about Mythic+

1. Timed run, especially with WoW's dungeon layout. If it's with FFXIV's current dungeon layout, it might be better (but I still dislike timed run in general), but I don't want the dungeon layout to change to something I may not like due to a Mythic+ system.
2. Progression (including negative progression) based on the timer, not just on completing the dungeon. (This is different from enrage mechanics that are intended to not make you waste time on a fight by pure brute force because you can still complete the dungeon even if you didn't beat the time.)
3. No lockouts combined with WoW's gearing system. If it were to fit FFXIV's system, like giving tomestone which is capped, then it might be better (but I still don't like the time issue in general). You can choose to continue doing it, but not because of gearing.

This one is minor:
4. Some of the affixes are silly, but that's just mechanics, and I've enjoyed FFXIV's mechanics so far.

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There, thank you. That I can completely work with!

Personally, I'm on the same side in regards to these issues. (I just don't think they're part and parcel of Mythic+ so much as just some of the little decisions that could have gone any other way.) That said, their removal would be... complicated.

At present, timers enforce a "damage meta", so to speak. But, the complete removal of timers would likely enforce the opposite, e.g. a PLD, DRK/WAR, WHM/SCH, and RDM, or the like.

Let's go back to the earlier condition for progressive difficulty design, "Making sure no jobs are obligatory for the dungeon's completion or give a huge lead in speed over other compositions." Now, because XIV more easily allows for multi-leveling than does WoW (or, will until WoW's next expansion, where that will likely flip on its head), and because XIV jobs have fewer distinct advantages than their WoW spec counterparts, we don't actually have to be as worried about the first part -- the unique toolkits just aren't really there to abuse -- the second part is still a concern.

So give these opposite extremes a simple label. On the rush-rush-rush side of design, we have the "damage meta". For virtually all other whole-dungeon constraints, or whenever there is no reason to rush (which would also require that the dungeon is not spammable, for better or worse), the "turtle meta" takes the fore. We want to allow for all jobs to see play, which means we don't want either meta to dominate, right?

Now, I'd be fine with progressive-difficulty dungeons not being spammable. Maw of Souls spam was wretched. I'd rather play a key until I fail and then either stop there, my streak ended for now, or a reroll into a lower difficulty in a new dungeon with few if any rewards until I'm back up to where I was (so I'd only try progging again if I felt sure I could get further this time). So, that takes one stone out from under the damage meta, at the mere cost of not being able to use this new content mode as much as we want (and therefore tiring of it early on or making it a means of most-efficient currency acquisition than something to do for fun -- which, again, I'd be glad to avoid).

But, there still has to be something within the dungeon run itself that makes time an issue, or else we're going to force "turtle comp" except where players badly overpower the difficulty setting they're at, which we'd ideally want to keep at only a brief time (i.e. we'd rather maximize the time players spend at difficulties appropriate for themselves, only going out of their favored zone when helping friends or being helped by them). I, too, dislike the timer making the dungeon feel a little overly... "gameified", which tends to sap some of its uniqueness.

If either WoW or XIV had particularly creative dungeons, I might rather see those timers as opportunities given throughout a sprawling dungeon, like being able to intercept a boss before he's gotten into his mech by either rushing to him or preventing alarms from going off, both things that would favor "damage meta", which I'd then balance out with things that favor a "turtle meta" or a balance of the two in other (likely later) parts of the dungeon. The "timers" would still exist, but they'd feel more natural -- part of the dungeon itself rather than just trying to beat a clock.

Obviously, I see how we handle timers (and thus dominant metas) as the biggest challenge in how XIV can allow for progressive-difficulty dungeons, but that's not to say that in testing more organic means of introducing something like them into XIV (e.g. starting from a concept like elements, materia, cards, or whatnot, and seeing how far they can take us) we might stumble into solutions for both that and the more minor things (like some of WoW's affixes not being particularly fun, even if they certainly change how the dungeon is played).

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Comparing the dungeons I run in Stormblood and Shadowbringers to those I ran in Legion, and especially BfA, I would disagree that they're identical. The big difference is that you still cannot avoid enemies and bosses in FFXIV's current dungeons. You have to clear everything (which actually would make Mythic+ more palatable if that were the case, just a bit).

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Merely an 'fyi': WoW dungeons give more freedom in what you pull, since they have more mob packs, more CC, greater power in your CDs, larger zones, and far more paths, but they still require that you pull a lot. Along with all the bosses, there's a meter's worth of requirement for mobs killed, so you can't actually skip in Mythic+ what all you could skip at normal difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Merely an 'fyi': WoW dungeons give more freedom in what you pull, since they have more mob packs, more CC, greater power in your CDs, larger zones, and far more paths, but they still require that you pull a lot. Along with all the bosses, there's a meter's worth of requirement for mobs killed, so you can't actually skip in Mythic+ what all you could skip at normal difficulty.

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Do they? Last I played seriously during Mists most dungeons and raids were very linear. Have they gone back to the Vanilla style? Of course FFXIV has never had a BRD or Sunken Temple (original).

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Originally Posted by MsQi

Do they? Last I played seriously during Mists most dungeons and raids were very linear. Have they gone back to the Vanilla style? Of course FFXIV has never had a BRD or Sunken Temple (original).

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They're still pretty linear with very, very few exceptions. This is more of a Classic WoW thing now which is a 15 year old game.

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Originally Posted by MsQi

Do they? Last I played seriously during Mists most dungeons and raids were very linear. Have they gone back to the Vanilla style? Of course FFXIV has never had a BRD or Sunken Temple (original).

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I just meant that as relative to XIV and as relevant to skipping mobs. Though they might not amount to much in terms of overall exploration, most WoW dungeons will generally have branching paths at least a few times that allow a choice of mobs or paths wide enough to avoid patrols (which are, oddly, entirely absent from XIV). Some will even allow you your choice between all but the final boss, or have side-bosses not necessary to reach the final one.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

They're still pretty linear with very, very few exceptions. This is more of a Classic WoW thing now which is a 15 year old game.

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It's not just a Classic WoW thing at all, either. If anything, many of the most free-pathing dungeons (at least since Vanilla's) are the more recent ones, from Warlords of Draenor and beyond. There's no broad design change or overall philosophy indicated by their inclusion, but simply numerous dungeons that are built in a more open manner, just as others (like the train dungeon) are built far more tightly. I suspect it's just to give some diversity to the feeling of dungeons, rather than letting them fall into such a consistent rut as, say, XIV's have.