The state of healers is affecting everyone

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I'm at a point I only log in to do savage content and maybe a daily expert roulette. Even that is barely enough for me at this point, it's boring sitting here broil->broil->broil->broil. Maybe I am in the minority, but I don't want to feel like I can play my class on an atari controller.

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Well I can guarantee you they are not changing it back so you might wanna reconsider playing another game at this point. What's the point of playing if you only get angry?

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Well I can guarantee you they are not changing it back so you might wanna reconsider playing another game at this point. What's the point of playing if you only get angry?

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Obligations, mostly. If my co-healer was willing to find a different healer to play with, I'd probably quit. I just don't want to screw her over because I'm the only co-healer she's had that she likes.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I use my full tool kit when i heal. I'm not sure where you're coming from with this 1 button spam over and over again.

Relative to the Op I know some of my friends who would heal regularly have taken to dps given the mega pulls in some dungeons like expert. It's hard to do those when under geared and as such some prefer to wait until they have better gear to delve in.

Healer queues are pretty instant for me for the most part unless there is a tank that isn't coming to the fight.

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This is exactly the case for me. I actually really -really- like the AST changes. I thought the other cards were lame and honestly the new system made the game meta into a mechanic. I'm sure it could be a little more fun with the aoe skill on an even shorter cooldown; however, I hate going into a dungeon as an undergeared healer, so I wait until most of the gear can be bought with poetics.

That way, I'm not a burden on my party and I'm having fun -healing- instead of panicking with every pull.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Obligations, mostly. If my co-healer was willing to find a different healer to play with, I'd probably quit. I just don't want to screw her over because I'm the only co-healer she's had that she likes.

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Also... try a different healer? This isn't like other MMO's where your class defines you. It's no good being stubborn and digging your heals into the ground all the while making yourself miserable with a class that seems to be in the dumps in this xpac. They've changed jobs drastically each expansion. Try something new, you never know, you might surprise yourself.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I use my full tool kit when i heal. I'm not sure where you're coming from with this 1 button spam over and over again.

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I don't believe you.

Using your full suite of cooldowns, instants and oGCDs in early end game content such as EX Primals will very quickly leave you in a situation where you have one of 3 choices:

1. Continue to (over)heal full HP bars.
   
2. Stand around doing nothing.
   
3. Spam a nuke.

My very first go at solo healing Innocence Extreme had me casting 113 Glares+Dia vs 13 Heals with a cast time and 15 Lilies. A 4 to 1 ratio and I was being super cautious at that (36% over heal). It's also worth nothing that I cast a miserable 2 Asylums, 3 Tetras and 0 Benes in that encounter so it could easily be said that I wasn't using my full toolkit in that situation and still ended up sitting around spending most of the encounter smashing Glare.

There just isn't enough healing required outside of Savage to even use your full toolkit. And as such, this is the situation we're in. If you're even remotely trying, it doesn't matter what content you're doing. You will be either standing around, playing wastefully or pummelling your nuke hotkey into the woodwork. Claiming otherwise is either plain denial or simple ineptitude. Sorry if that seems harsh but that's how it is currently.

SE have consistently and repeatedly fumbled the healer role into this green DPS corner and they've shown absolutely no signs of figuring out how they are going to get healers actually healing again.

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Originally Posted by LittleArrow

Also... try a different healer? This isn't like other MMO's where your class defines you. It's no good being stubborn and digging your heals into the ground all the while making yourself miserable with a class that seems to be in the dumps in this xpac. They've changed jobs drastically each expansion. Try something new, you never know, you might surprise yourself.

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The only other option for me is AST because my co-healer is a WHM. Even if I could play WHM, it's not like it's any different from SCH, other than instead of shields it has regens, besides that, they play the same. spam the 1 button until big ouchie, then heal, then back to spamming.

As for AST, god no, that class is horrid right now. For all the work it has to put in, just to get lower rDPS than the other 2 healers, and its main attraction has been butchered.

If they gave me a class as fun and as interesting as SCH was back in SB, I'd swap to it in an instant, but they took all of that away and I have no other healer to go to.

So basically, and according to all the pro healers on this topic; being a healer in a static is boring.
Meanwhile, us average/bad healers are having a lot of fun in DF or random PF spamming our heals on bad/average tanks and DPS.
I guess we can't have it all.

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Originally Posted by Novae

So basically, and according to all the pro healers on this topic; being a healer in a static is boring.
Meanwhile, us average/bad healers are having a lot of fun in DF or random PF spamming our heals on bad/average tanks and DPS.
I guess we can't have it all.

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I think healing is boring now and I don't do savage. They took the fun away by trying to suit healers for static and even they aren't happy.
How about that lol.

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Originally Posted by Novae

So basically, and according to all the pro healers on this topic; being a healer in a static is boring.
Meanwhile, us average/bad healers are having a lot of fun in DF or random PF spamming our heals on bad/average tanks and DPS.
I guess we can't have it all.

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The average DF party will clear, most of the time at a mediocre pace. At worst, slowly and painfully, but it will still clear. In this case bad players are no more fun, just additional tedium. It takes an EXCEPTIONAL party to get a rise out of me, like the one where I tanked as a BLM because the tank was that bad and the SCH that good.

PF groups that can actually clear, again, boring; turn on the glare. Trying to turn traps into clears is fun, for a time, but only if the party is JUST bad enough to be salvageable. And even then, only being challenged because of other people's ineptitude gets old.

If you've yet to realize how rote things like Expert Dungeons are, it's because you are, by your own admission, average or worse and therefore you have a chance to fail or improve and that makes the content engaging.

The game should not be designed such that the fun is situated in a bell curve centered on the average player. It should be fun for highly skilled players in all content, while still allowing players of lower skill levels to meet the baseline requirements to pass the content (anyone for MSQ requirements, anyone who can dodge orange stuff for other normal content, anyone with the time and attention to learn basic mechanics for EX, anyone who is baseline competent at their job for Savage, and experts for Ultimate). If fun cannot be derived from the challenge of clearing, it needs to come from something like pursuing optimization, which is in large dependent on complexity of job kit.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Gig's up, someone found out that we are not literally spending 100% of the time pressing one button, but on my last clear of E1s, I did a total of 154 GCDs, of those, 133 are DPS abilties, AND OF THOSE, 82 was broil. Congrats, you saw through the lies of the Jedi.

Obviously we are not actually pressing 1 button the entire fight, but the amount of times I'm pressing that one button compared to every other button? It's ridiculous. I want something to break the monotony. As I get better and better, that number will only increase, and it's depressing.

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I'm sorry, what was sarcasm supposed to award you other than I shouldn't be taking you seriously? I'm sure no one actually thought we hit one button, but an exaggeration is still an exaggeration to conflate an opinion.

Looking at past logs, in Stormblood, you pressed Malefic III 135 times out of 162 attacks, but Shadowbringers is worse. Okay. If you count all GCDs (also discounting cards), that's still 172 (57% of all casts - card system really bloated the amount of "casts" done). As a scholar, you still cast broil 42% of the time. Looking at your log recently, you have broil cast 86 times out of 230 (37%). According to logs, you're casting broil now less than before, despite having less to work with in terms of DPS buttons. If it's really as bad as you present it to be, I should be able to pull up any fight and see just how many casts of Glare, Broil and Malefic and it should be a majority of everything being cast across all healers.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Sorry you're apparently content with not improving as a player. If you don't care to be an efficient healer, then that lessens the value of your opinion on job design.

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No idea what gave you that assumption just because we have differing opinions, but you're very wrong. If you'd like to see what kind of a player I am in savage raids, there is a public site in which you may use to check. Otherwise, I kindly ask that you keep ad hominem to a minimum.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

If a game is designed around being engaging at the highest level of play, lesser skilled players can still have fun. Efficent healers get to do their DPS rotation and feel good, and you can heal inefficiently, but satisfactorily, and feel good. They and you both clear Savage.

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Yes, they can. However, the problem is the community and how outspoken some are on how they interpret the game should be, despite any design choices made by the game's team.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

It's like fighting games: button mashers can have fun, but you don't design the game around them.

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I can't think of a single fighting game where button mashing is designed around, but I can think of a fighting game with a simple, small command list and is still fun (Divekick). Granted, that game would not be to everyone's liking.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Similarly, team content that is truly supposed to challenge (Savage/Ultimate) should be made with premade groups in mind, not PUGs.

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I can't agree as I've known quite a couple to progress solely through PUGs (due to work schedules not being consistent to allow them to raid with a static) and still gain a week 1 clear in terms of savage raids. They didn't do it blindly, though, but all the same, it was possible to do it without a pre-made group. All this comment does is make me think back to my above comment here on how a vocal community says the game should be versus how it was designed by the developers.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

I am empathetic that you either lack a static, or do have one and despise your co-healer, but a healthy group eventually plans a schedule around oGCDs and lily heals which results in a bulk of the leftover GCDs turning into Glare/Broil/Malefic. In cutting edge prog or prog in midcore/casual statics there's usually no formal schedule, but the healers still coordinate mid-fight over mic.

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An assumption on your part with no evidence. I have a static and I love my co-healer. However, I am still very realistic about how the game ends up being with the players I end up playing the game with on a majority basis - the people outside of a static. I'm not disagreeing with that last statement. Mostly. That's something I've stated before to a similar effect, but may have been lost in other things I was saying. So, to that extent, we agree on something.

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Originally Posted by Novae

So basically, and according to all the pro healers on this topic; being a healer in a static is boring.
Meanwhile, us average/bad healers are having a lot of fun in DF or random PF spamming our heals on bad/average tanks and DPS.
I guess we can't have it all.

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The closest thing I've ever done to healing anything "Savage" was in SB and that was an Extreme Primal when it was current (which is not the same thing).

I find healing boring and the only tolerable healer at this point is white mage in my opinion. So no average/bad healers don't all enjoy the way things are.

In fact healing in dungeons is beyond boring and annoying.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

On some recent E2S runs:

50th percentile healing

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Try 95 percentile+ healing with less than 20% overheal and you have a description of my group. :D

I don't get that much time to DPS on E2S but then again, my group is only exploring the quietus phase now.

I think the arguments about "farm encounters are boring" isn't a valid one. Farm encounters are boring whether you are DPS, Healer or Tank. That's why we're calling them farm encounters and dispose of them in a quick and quiet manner. A class shouldn't be designed around farm encounters.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

No idea what gave you that assumption just because we have differing opinions, but you're very wrong. If you'd like to see what kind of a player I am in savage raids, there is a public site in which you may use to check. Otherwise, I kindly ask that you keep ad hominem to a minimum.

That wasn't directed at you, hence why it was under the other poster's quote. I directed it at them because they made a bunch of veiled insults about how I'm a poindexter who only cares for numbers, and more importantly, they said they DON'T do Savage. For future reference, I put responses BELOW quotes.

Yes, they can. However, the problem is the community and how outspoken some are on how they interpret the game should be, despite any design choices made by the game's team.

The game design team obviously does not solely balance based on high end players. If they did, they wouldn't think Verraise is worth RDM being 2000 DPS behind BLM; raise does not save early Savage runs, but it does save less difficult content. The alternative is that the job balance team doesn't know HOW to balance to the high end.

I can't think of a single fighting game where button mashing is designed around, but I can think of a fighting game with a simple, small command list and is still fun (Divekick). Granted, that game would not be to everyone's liking.

Divekick's balance patches took tournament player feedback and tournament results int accout. It was still being balanced at the high end post-launch, despite starting out as an april fool's joke.

I can't agree as I've known quite a couple to progress solely through PUGs (due to work schedules not being consistent to allow them to raid with a static) and still gain a week 1 clear in terms of savage raids. They didn't do it blindly, though, but all the same, it was possible to do it without a pre-made group. All this comment does is make me think back to my above comment here on how a vocal community says the game should be versus how it was designed by the developers.

I never said people couldn't do it. But the fights should be designed with the assumption that players are communicating.

An assumption on your part with no evidence. I have a static and I love my co-healer. However, I am still very realistic about how the game ends up being with the players I end up playing the game with on a majority basis - the people outside of a static. I'm not disagreeing with that last statement. Mostly. That's something I've stated before to a similar effect, but may have been lost in other things I was saying. So, to that extent, we agree on something.

When you talk about not being able to rely on your cohealer, what am I supposed to think? PUGs and a difficult co-healer are the only things that come to mind. I honestly feel for anyone who has to deal with PUGs with no friends for refuge. Because it's always a crapshoot what you're going to get (like delay netplay in fighting games!).

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Essentially, the game should be designed so that it doesn't become significantly LESS fun the better you get at it.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

Looking at past logs, in Stormblood, you pressed Malefic III 135 times out of 162 attacks, but Shadowbringers is worse.

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Not a response to me, I know, but I'll interject here that healing has been getting worse since ARR in this regard. Maybe some of it is players getting better/having logs (like how WoW Classic Beta players complained it was dumbed down, but the reality was it was the same and everyone was WORSE back then). But I think the glut of oGCD's, fewer mini-buster cleaves, and neverending mana reserves killing triage played a big part too. HW had some of the most technical DPS play because of stance dancing and everyone juggling a handful of DoTs, but outliers like Gordias and Midas aside healing got a lot easier.

I mean, just look at SCH right now; in terms of raw healing potential it's absurd, and the other healers aren't much different. I guess I appreciate that it enables solo healing even the hardest content, but it also makes the standard two healers + non-healer support skills WAY overkill in a lot of fights. I wouldn't mind the stunted DPS kits if they actually were just filler between healing strings, but if we're doing a full 30s of nonstop DPS I'd sort of like to have to think about it a bit.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Try 95 percentile+ healing with less than 20% overheal and you have a description of my group. :D

I don't get that much time to DPS on E2S but then again, my group is only exploring the quietus phase now.

I think the arguments about "farm encounters are boring" isn't a valid one. Farm encounters are boring whether you are DPS, Healer or Tank. That's why we're calling them farm encounters and dispose of them in a quick and quiet manner. A class shouldn't be designed around farm encounters.

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I respect people who are essentially solo healing; I want to get there myself. I just referenced the percentile to show I wasn't quoting a greed run.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

I respect people who are essentially solo healing; I want to get there myself. I just referenced the percentile to show I wasn't quoting a greed run.

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Well solo healing isn't always possible in savage. Not because WHM lacks the output but because SE doesn't give you enough time.
2nd flare on E2S would be a good example here, since I only get 2 GCDs between flare and stack marker. Not enough to solo that.

I do the heavy lifting in terms of healing for my group because I don't find extended periods of DPSing fun. My SCH co-heal was the opposite but since ShB she too has to heal a lot more than she used to.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Well solo healing isn't always possible in savage. Not because WHM lacks the output but because SE doesn't give you enough time.
2nd flare on E2S would be a good example here, since I only get 2 GCDs between flare and stack marker. Not enough to solo that.

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Pre-positioning Asylum, Temperance, Plenary Indulgence, Cure III x2 with the first being precast isn't enough? That's 1500 potency before Asylum+Temperance boost.

Just curious, since I'm planning on working my way towards being able to solo.

EDIT: Yeah, looks like I only get ~65000 HP healed per person off of that. Swiftcasting (or PoM and clip) the first Cure III and using Assize would add another 15000, for 80000. That seems like it could work?

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Essentially, the game should be designed so that it doesn't become significantly LESS fun the better you get at it.

My mistake there on it being addressed to me. Unsure how I completely missed their quote.

Not a response to me, I know, but I'll interject here that healing has been getting worse since ARR in this regard. Maybe some of it is players getting better/having logs (like how WoW Classic Beta players complained it was dumbed down, but the reality was it was the same and everyone was WORSE back then). But I think the glut of oGCD's, fewer mini-buster cleaves, and neverending mana reserves killing triage played a big part too. HW had some of the most technical DPS play because of stance dancing and everyone juggling a handful of DoTs, but outliers like Gordias and Midas aside healing got a lot easier.

I mean, just look at SCH right now; in terms of raw healing potential it's absurd, and the other healers aren't much different. I guess I appreciate that it enables solo healing even the hardest content, but it also makes the standard two healers + non-healer support skills WAY overkill in a lot of fights. I wouldn't mind the stunted DPS kits if they actually were just filler between healing strings, but if we're doing a full 30s of nonstop DPS I'd sort of like to have to think about it a bit.

I respect people who are essentially solo healing; I want to get there myself. I just referenced the percentile to show I wasn't quoting a greed run.

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ARR was very different to what we have now. I've said it in other posts, wew 30~35s being a mini tank buster from Twintania, plus mechanics. Funny how healing ultimate Twintania is easier than Twintania at minimum ilvl and lvl (my opinion, of course). Yeah, we were all pretty terrible then.

Eh... Heavensward. Loved the story, kind of hated everything else. They introduced AST, which was honestly fine as it was when it was introduced - ED was an even lower CD than it is now and it's healing potencies weren't that much behind WHM. Too bad every card sucked except balance until they changed that. While Gordias was ... *shiver* ... Midas's mechanics and fights were fun. I actually enjoyed those fights a lot. They had things to do for everyone, similar to some of the Coil fights. There was still an enrage to beat, but it wasn't nearly as overtuned as Gordias. Creator was ... kind of boring mechanically. The thing about solo healing - it's been do-able since ARR. It didn't stop in HW (IE: 'horrible' AST still solo healed G3S). It continued in SB (solo healing ultimates on SCH and AST). It certainly keeps going in SH (co-healer has already solo healed E1S, working on E2S). The only healer that hasn't been able to is ... WHM. The shields / mitigations are really that make-or-break in solo healing. Maybe WHM can solo heal now, as they have Temperance and Benison.

However, there's something I disagree on: a RDM's Verraise being the reason why RDM is so far behind a BLM (which is like comparing a NIN to a MNK in my opinion). I did raid as RDM when it debuted; RDM's issue isn't the Verraise - if anything, I'd love it stricken from the job because other people expected me to raise, even if I was topping the other DPS that hadn't died at all. RDM's issues are there burst lines up with no raid buffs, including their own. Its raid buff is lackluster compared to other utilities to choose from and I wish they'd not have the buff deteriorate over time. In terms of mobility, SMN has superiority while also maintaining better DPS (even now). The class could be easily fixed just by moving their burst window up. It'd not be BLM levels, but it might bring it closer to SMN. However, the XIV chose this and they obviously intended it to be this. However, having a RDM in party doesn't suddenly mean you won't clear content just because of the class. If anything, the XIV team balances based on how the job feels and a design document.

The thing about this game and design is it's very much catered to people with limited time. A lot of high end players have, through one way or another, found themselves with ample time compared to the target demographic, to invest in the game and increase their skill through dedication. That doesn't make them the focus of content - the XIV team has gone out of their way to make content for them despite this (savage and ultimates).

Divekick isn't a serious fighting game nor is it balanced. One of the first things you learn in the FGC is that top players are opinionated and wrong and developers know it. The best balanced fighting game right now is Tekken 7, with Harada basically being known for his "don't ask me for shit" attitude. He listens to the feedback, but he knows most of it is dumb requests. He's seriously going to listen to a bunch of armchair developers over people that have been making the game for the last 30+ years? Of course not.

The fights are designed to be able to be figured out, but communicating on the fly is simply not needed in this game due to the scripted nature of the encounters. The only time you really need to really communicate is if something goes awry. Even if it were, I'd think most players would be too engrossed keeping up their rotations to want to type out things to communicate to others. I find it in bad design to create a game that requires voice communication while also not providing one or providing a poor implementation of it. I know some players would quote me and say voice communications are a standard for MMOs for the past 15+ years. I'd agree, as most MMOs have non-scripted fights or a list of moves a boss pulls from and can use in any order.

Exactly what I've been saying - that all of what I have been saying is in context of not being with a static as that is what the majority of content is done with (at least, for me). I don't dungeon crawl, run EX primals, run normal raids, run 24 man, etc. with the static. Heck, there will be a point where I'll end up doing savage with PF while the static will be regulated to ultimate until the next tier. That doesn't mean I have faith that this scholar will stop broiling to fit an indomitability or place down a much needed sacred soil for some mechanic.

Fun is subjective, though. Some will find perfect play as fun; always chasing those orange percentile numbers, while others will find it robotic and boring.

As for less fun the better you get at it, that's speedrunning in a nutshell to me. This game comes across, to me, as knowledge being the gatekeeper. Once you know it, where is the fun, regardless of the role?

First off, I appreciate the time you must have put into this response.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

ARR was very different to what we have now. I've said it in other posts, wew 30~35s being a mini tank buster from Twintania, plus mechanics. Funny how healing ultimate Twintania is easier than Twintania at minimum ilvl and lvl (my opinion, of course). Yeah, we were all pretty terrible then.

I'd really like to see some of this sort of design again. It's there, and it's possible to put together min ilvl groups, but something in new content many people will run?

I think the encounter design in this game is quite nice, but sometimes I wish we'd get a fight or two that has to be reacted to largely on the fly instead of the usual delicate choreography. Or mob raids (T4, A2). Variety helps.

Nothing to add or contest on the HW bits, except that AST at the very, very beginning was bad. After they buffed it, it was fine, but then they kept buffing it.

However, the XIV chose this and they obviously intended it to be this. However, having a RDM in party doesn't suddenly mean you won't clear content just because of the class. If anything, the XIV team balances based on how the job feels and a design document.

While I agree RDM should keep a healing/defensive streak, as someone who mained it in 11 and loves it in 1 and 5, I've been in debates with a lot of top players, including top RDM's who say the problem is Verraise and want it gone. The general thought is that if RDM's rDPS will always be behind BLM (or SUM), because of spammable raise, they just won't take Red Mages after prog. Especially not in its current state where it's so far behind as to be a liability. If RDM is functionally even or ahead of BLM, they wouldn't take BLM.

I've put forth a lot of alternatives, like trading the raise for defensive and healing CD's that help STOP people from dying to begin with (a la curing waltz) and don't eat GCD's like Vercure. The players in question don't buy it, usually bringing up pre-ShB BRD and NIN's dominance. There will always be a meta; I'm hopeful there can be diversity of function in it, but I'll admit it's always easier to just compress function and hope aesthetic and rotation can carry a uniqye feel.

The thing about this game and design is it's very much catered to people with limited time. A lot of high end players have, through one way or another, found themselves with ample time compared to the target demographic, to invest in the game and increase their skill through dedication. That doesn't make them the focus of content - the XIV team has gone out of their way to make content for them despite this (savage and ultimates).


Yoshida's comments to this end are precisely why I think they focus balance on the average, and I still think that's misguided (the balance point, not making an MMO people are hypothetically encouraged to walk away from periodically). I've no illusions that the majority of content made is aimed at the best players: Wildstar kinda showed how that story ends.

However, I think that even a game where most content is meant to be low stress should be partially balanced to reward skill on an emotional/feel level (instead of the practical benefits of faster loot and currency gain). There's a simple solution to this: make the job design deep, deeper than is needed for most content yet still useable in that content. For DPS and tanks, this is already there both in perfecting a rotation and, imo, in making use of support abilities even where they aren't strictly required.

Healing can't do this, because it's entirely dependent on the difficulty of the encounter and most encounters in this game cannot be too hard. Which is why I think healers need something else built into their kit which becomes the focus once healing itself becomes trivial.

Divekick isn't a serious fighting game nor is it balanced. One of the first things you learn in the FGC is that top players are opinionated and wrong and developers know it. The best balanced fighting game right now is Tekken 7, with Harada basically being known for his "don't ask me for shit" attitude. He seemingly cares very little about player feedback.

I'm mostly in the anime side of the scene, and I know firsthand from Elvenshadow that Arc System Works takes the opinions of (Japanese) Guilty Gear pros into account when doing balance patches. They don't let the pros rule their design decisions, but they do listen. Even when they don't, they're looking at tournament and high end arcade rankings to direct balancing decisions: they aren't looking at casual netplayers or the 2-3 dan players who come to the arcade once a month. My general sense of Capcom and SNK is that they're also watching what the top players do, though maybe not what they want. Can't speak to Tekken, never been part of that scene.

The fights are designed to be able to be figured out, but communicating on the fly is simply not needed in this game due to the scripted nature of the encounters. The only time you really need to really communicate is if something goes awry. Even if it were, I'd think most players would be too engrossed keeping up their rotations to want to type out things to communicate to others. I find it in bad design to create a game that requires voice communication while also not providing one or providing a poor implementation of it. I know some players would quote me and say voice communications are a standard for MMOs for the past 15+ years. I'd agree, as most MMOs have non-scripted fights or a list of moves a boss pulls from and can use in any order.

If being designed for PUGs is WHY we have so few random elements in fights, that just makes me want for that paradigm to change even more.

Exactly what I've been saying - that all of what I have been saying is in context of not being with a static as that is what the majority of content is done with (at least, for me). I don't dungeon crawl, run EX primals, run normal raids, run 24 man, etc. with the static. Heck, there will be a point where I'll end up doing savage with PF while the static will be regulated to ultimate until the next tier. That doesn't mean I have faith that this scholar will stop broiling to fit an indomitability or place down a much needed sacred soil for some mechanic.

Fun is subjective, though. Some will find perfect play as fun; always chasing those orange percentile numbers, while others will find it robotic and boring.

Fair enough.

As for less fun the better you get at it, that's speedrunning in a nutshell to me. This game comes across, to me, as knowledge being the gatekeeper. Once you know it, where is the fun, regardless of the role?

The fun is in continuing to learn how you can do even better. Do more damage, heal closer to the red line, beat the fight faster, make no mistakes, etc. Or, though few players do this, push the system with variant runs (solo healer, all tanks, undersized while at level, etc.). You find more things to learn. The more learning to do in the first place, the longer those new ventures will last you.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Essentially, the game should be designed so that it doesn't become significantly LESS fun the better you get at it.

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You nearly defined boredom, or expressed how any given person becomes bored with an activity. Some people have more tolerance for it than others, but it doesn't change that a person has become bored. Smashing one button over and over again is only part of the equation here, and I would argue it is a small part of it. I would wager that despite broil/glare/malefic spam in even difficult content, there is a rush of excitement most of us feel anytime we do content for the first time. After you've cleared it a dozen times over, that excitement is all but gone and you're left with boredom. DPS and tanks suffer the same.

You can argue that at least DPS and tanks have more to do; more buttons to push. However, the one button slamfest has always been a thing for healers. SCH was the exception, but when you boil them down, they really just had more DoTs to manage.

To address previous replies:

I am not trying to invalidate the feelings healers have towards the role whether they are content/bored, or a boastful raider/silent casual. Anyone who has been healing for a while has known that this has been an issue for some time and foresaw the simplification of healer DPS, but had hopes the dev team would increase healing requirements or somehow find a way to make combat more engaging for healers.

What I am saying though is that filler smashing will always be a thing when there is nothing left to do, and that lack of engaging gameplay comes from an assortment of things happening with the game. Homogenization of healer DPS kits, encounter design, ilv progression, low ilv sync requirements, predictable mechanics, content grinding, among others are all contributors to the boredom.

Among all the culprits, our DPS kits concern me the least. It's going to be the last thing I request when it comes to making content more engaging for healers, and feel that nurturing the green DPS aspect to healers to be a sweep under the rug approach towards a goal which should ultimately make healing fun for everyone.

This is a tough goal to obtain though. That is a big reason why I brought up the silent majority earlier because silence still has a voice, and it unfortunately speaks against those requesting changes to be made. The dev team is not intentionally trying to make content for healers a snorefest, and this needs to be understood. It without question has the most challenging role for them to deal with despite there only being three jobs. That's a testament if anything else.

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Originally Posted by JunseiKei

However, there's something I disagree on: a RDM's Verraise being the reason why RDM is so far behind a BLM (which is like comparing a NIN to a MNK in my opinion). I did raid as RDM when it debuted; RDM's issue isn't the Verraise - if anything, I'd love it stricken from the job because other people expected me to raise, even if I was topping the other DPS that hadn't died at all. RDM's issues are there burst lines up with no raid buffs, including their own. Its raid buff is lackluster compared to other utilities to choose from and I wish they'd not have the buff deteriorate over time. In terms of mobility, SMN has superiority while also maintaining better DPS (even now). The class could be easily fixed just by moving their burst window up. It'd not be BLM levels, but it might bring it closer to SMN. However, the XIV chose this and they obviously intended it to be this. However, having a RDM in party doesn't suddenly mean you won't clear content just because of the class. If anything, the XIV team balances based on how the job feels and a design document.

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Yoshida came right out and insisted Verraise was Red Mage's utility which is why they couldn't buff it initially. He reigned on that statement due to Summoner's sheer dominance from 4.1 onward. There is no question they're taxing both Verraise and Resurrection now. Much in the same manner the Physical Range are being taxed for utility they supposedly have yet don't. In regards to Red Mage's burst. The difference between it and Summoner is negligible. What's holding it back is how insanely imbalanced Black Mage is relevant to both its counterparts.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You nearly defined boredom, or expressed how any given person becomes bored with an activity. Some people have more tolerance for it than others, but it doesn't change that a person has become bored. Smashing one button over and over again is only part of the equation here, and I would argue it is a small part of it. I would wager that despite broil/glare/malefic spam in even difficult content, there is a rush of excitement most of us feel anytime we do content for the first time. After you've cleared it a dozen times over, that excitement is all but gone and you're left with boredom. DPS and tanks suffer the same.

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Does it eventually tire? Sure, to some degree. But both DPS and Tanks are actively engaged with a full rotation they have to maintain. I always have to be mindful of my buff placements or thinking about if delaying IR will let me sync it with an upcoming Trick. Healers lack any of this nuance. Once you know how to heal the fight, your gameplay is essentially done. And unlike the aforementioned DPS and Tanks, you don't have the luxury of an engaging rotation to fall back on. While I'm prepping a Fell Cleave spam, setting up for Gnawing into Continuation or lining up Litany, Blood and Nastrond. You get to spam Glare for the 1000th time.

Put another way, Tanks and DPS always engage in their primary role. Yes, tanks still have tank mechanics but lets face is, they're essentially hybrid DPS. And that works for many players given the tank aesthetic and rotation suits it. Healers, on the other hand, hardly ever focus on their primary role. If they also had an interesting DPS rotation perhaps it could work like the tanks. They don't. They have one button. Which is why so many healers have been complaining for years now.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Pre-positioning Asylum, Temperance, Plenary Indulgence, Cure III x2 with the first being precast isn't enough?

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Not if the boss decides that you are the one that gets the Flare and has to run around. :D
Also, other people are too far away at the time (there are 3 flares total) for Cure III to be effective for everybody.

I have no issues and i play all healers and love them.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

some things that might will explain why there aren't much healers:

1.support was never that much of a popular role,not many like to just spam heal's and buffs or like being the punching bag for people when they failed and die and follow the rule of "its the healer's fault".

2. dps was always more appealing to people and i think tanking was second.

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It's generally DPS, Healing then tanks. hence why 90% of the tank tank is the AIN.

Proper support roles though are actually quite popular in games that have them. the problem with support in XIV is thats its not a proper role just something tacked on to a gimpy dps class.

Brd for example was pretty much just a weak dps that can sing a few songs. wasnt really a support class wasnt really a dps just some sort of
werid combination.

so you had people that didnt like itbecause it wasnt a proper support. and people who didntlike it because it wasnta proper dps.

Ranged classes in general have lost a lot of popularity in games though because they've transitioned from the proverbial "Glass Cannons" super strong but risky dps into what is basically now an "Iron Pea shooter" weak sauce dps but highly survivable and that transtion has generally made them alot more boring to play for many gamers, and in XIV has lead to them being dubbed the "safe job"

also why so many people were upset when they first added jobs to the classes. it was eitherwhy can't i be a properranger or why does my bard have to dps so much...

if the game functioned with full on support roles they'd actually be very popular amoung players. it can be quite satisfying turning the tides of battle blind a boss so his tank buster misses the tank entirely would be a lot more satisfying to see than omg did you see muh deeps on that attack...

but the main reason support isnt very popular in XIV is because it's really support just weak dps with a few songs / jigs tacked on... that dont really do much.
but the encounters have been simplified so much that thats all they can be....

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Originally Posted by Novae

So basically, and according to all the pro healers on this topic; being a healer in a static is boring.
Meanwhile, us average/bad healers are having a lot of fun in DF or random PF spamming our heals on bad/average tanks and DPS.
I guess we can't have it all.

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I am having a lot of fun as AST, our heal is weak compare to WHM, and we don’t get as many powerful oGCD heal. We also have to play our card in between GCD, I am kind of busy spamming heal and playing with card with little down time, unless everyone is vastly over gear

AST is the busiest of the three, nobody denies that. AST gets criticised because of its compararively weaker potencies overall and the simplification of its buffing mechanics that traded Versatility and complex decision making for a simpler yet more reliable dps increase.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Does it eventually tire? Sure, to some degree. But both DPS and Tanks are actively engaged with a full rotation they have to maintain. I always have to be mindful of my buff placements or thinking about if delaying IR will let me sync it with an upcoming Trick. Healers lack any of this nuance. Once you know how to heal the fight, your gameplay is essentially done. And unlike the aforementioned DPS and Tanks, you don't have the luxury of an engaging rotation to fall back on. While I'm prepping a Fell Cleave spam, setting up for Gnawing into Continuation or lining up Litany, Blood and Nastrond. You get to spam Glare for the 1000th time.

Put another way, Tanks and DPS always engage in their primary role. Yes, tanks still have tank mechanics but lets face is, they're essentially hybrid DPS. And that works for many players given the tank aesthetic and rotation suits it. Healers, on the other hand, hardly ever focus on their primary role. If they also had an interesting DPS rotation perhaps it could work like the tanks. They don't. They have one button. Which is why so many healers have been complaining for years now.

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To some degree? I'd say to a pretty significant one. Especially in comparison to the feeling of excitement the first time you go into an encounter. Healers are never going to get an actual DPS rotation. You might as well throw this out the window because it isn't happening ever. Not in the direction the devs are going. You are completely ignoring the varied skill levels amongst the playerbase. Despite the fact that there are players out there who are not happy with the state of our current healers, this does not mean that a lot of thought does not go into the design.

To be honest, I don't think there are many that are entirely happy with the current state of healers. This applies to both players and the devs. But for those who want the devs the nurture the green DPS aspect of healers will likely continue to be disappointed and feel the devs are not listening to them because it should be clear this is not their vision of how healers should play. Will they eventually cave and bring healers more in line with 4.0 SCH? It's possible, but it's not happening anytime in 5.x.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

To some degree? I'd say to a pretty significant one. Especially in comparison to the feeling of excitement the first time you go into an encounter. Healers are never going to get an actual DPS rotation. You might as well throw this out the window because it isn't happening ever. Not in the direction the devs are going. You are completely ignoring the varied skill levels amongst the playerbase. Despite the fact that there are players out there who are not happy with the state of our current healers, this does not mean that a lot of thought does not go into the design.

To be honest, I don't think there are many that are entirely happy with the current state of healers. This applies to both players and the devs. But for those who want the devs the nurture the green DPS aspect of healers will likely continue to be disappointed and feel the devs are not listening to them because it should be clear this is not their vision of how healers should play. Will they eventually cave and bring healers more in line with 4.0 SCH? It's possible, but it's not happening anytime in 5.x.

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Whether or not they cater to "green DPS", that is what their game is designed for, and outside of a massive rework, that's not going to change be it this expansion or the next one. If they aren't willing to give healers their own rotation (doesn't even have to be much of one, I don't need anything more than 3-5 buttons and I'd be content) then they need something else to do in their massive amounts of downtime.

I would absolutely hate having a rotation on healer. That's part of the reason why I enjoy the job so much. As mentioned, tanks and DPS have a fairly set rotation that they're just supposed to do repeatedly while healers get to react to what's happening at the moment. With scripted fights we know when to expect certain things, but there is still a lot randomness when you take into account other players.

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Originally Posted by Mediocre_Guy

Wait times for duties are awful and it tends to be healers I am waiting on. Currently at 51 Minutes with all spots filled (since like 20 minutes they've all been filled) but the two healers. This is something I've noticed while playing over the last few weeks. I know they made some people quit healing with recent changes but that is affecting more than just healers.

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I am a healer and have no issues queuing with or without my healing jobs. I'm in siren too.
And the states of healing jobs are fine. I really enjoy them.

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Originally Posted by KadaRemnant

I am a healer and have no issues queuing with or without my healers.
And the states of healing jobs are fine. I really enjoy them.

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"Because I like it there are 0 issues and things to improve, even in the face of valid criticizism" it's great that you enjoy them, but there are a lot of people that don't and plenty of explanations as to why. I would suggest reading those before just stating something is fine.

Did he ever say what trial he was quing for outside of “something after Ultima weapon”?

I don't get the desire for complex rotations either. Coming from console games where all your abilities can usually fit on the buttons of the controller, that's all I really want - the phenomenal (and growing) list of skills here makes it very hard to remember everything that is available to you.

Also, I have a hard enough time keeping up with DPS rotations while dodging mechanics anyway. Add healing to that where at any moment you have to drop everything and save the party? It would be awful, and the brain power of following the rotation would take away from my attention of watching the party's HP. I'd probably give up on it altogether because I'd feel like I'm doing a terrible job of both sides of my role.

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Originally Posted by Granyala

Not if the boss decides that you are the one that gets the Flare and has to run around. :D
Also, other people are too far away at the time (there are 3 flares total) for Cure III to be effective for everybody.

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Given assize is probably needed, it is true that a solo healer needs to stay with the party.

But the party should adjust by not having the WHM leave stack, and you don't need to heal the away flares immediately since there's no other raidwides for a bit after Unholy (6 people in stack is survivable at 80k hp plus change per person).

I think it's possible, but definitely harder than the shield jobs.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

I don't get the desire for complex rotations either. Coming from console games where all your abilities can usually fit on the buttons of the controller, that's all I really want - the phenomenal (and growing) list of skills here makes it very hard to remember everything that is available to you.

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The desire comes from a lack of anything else to do when there's not enough damage flying about.

Not sure why, thread after thread - page after page, this point has to be continuously repeated: People just want something to do during the healing downtime. Downtime which can easily make up more than 60% of a fight, and the way that the game is currently designed that downtime is filled with one/two button DPS spam. Said spam is brain dead and having to do it so often for so long gets tedious, so realizing that we're going to have so much DPS downtime a lot of healers wind up asking for more complex rotations so we can have something to do aside from smashing one button over and over.

To those that retort with, "Why don't you push for more intensive healing then?" many of us do that as well. However, we have never once had even an impression that such an overhaul was coming so it's more a wishful dream. And a massive overhaul it would be, considering they'd have to rebalance all the older fights in the game around the new healing intensity as well. At least with DPS rotation and the like we can point to ye olde Scholar and Cleric Stance dancing as examples of what we once had and would like to have back.

At the very least having one complex class/one with rotations to offer an alternative to the incredibly basic WHM playstyle would be a nice change instead of making each of the classes more and more similar to one another.

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Also, I have a hard enough time keeping up with DPS rotations while dodging mechanics anyway. Add healing to that where at any moment you have to drop everything and save the party? It would be awful, and the brain power of following the rotation would take away from my attention of watching the party's HP.

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Keeping up rotations while dodging mechanics is a pretty low standard to meet as is. How low a bar are we willing to keep classes at because some people may struggle?

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Originally Posted by Shalan

Keeping up rotations while dodging mechanics is a pretty low standard to meet as is. How low a bar are we willing to keep classes at because some people may struggle?

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Perhaps if people were less abusive towards those that struggle and not simply go “ur bad LOL git gud /votekick” there would be a lot less anxiety al around.

For me it’s mostly because SCH dps kit got gutted. For me healing isn’t fun anymore unless it’s WHM. Im a tank main but I used to like to heal in my spare time but the changes have turned me away from the role

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Originally Posted by Gemina

To some degree? I'd say to a pretty significant one. Especially in comparison to the feeling of excitement the first time you go into an encounter. Healers are never going to get an actual DPS rotation. You might as well throw this out the window because it isn't happening ever. Not in the direction the devs are going. You are completely ignoring the varied skill levels amongst the playerbase. Despite the fact that there are players out there who are not happy with the state of our current healers, this does not mean that a lot of thought does not go into the design.

To be honest, I don't think there are many that are entirely happy with the current state of healers. This applies to both players and the devs. But for those who want the devs the nurture the green DPS aspect of healers will likely continue to be disappointed and feel the devs are not listening to them because it should be clear this is not their vision of how healers should play. Will they eventually cave and bring healers more in line with 4.0 SCH? It's possible, but it's not happening anytime in 5.x.

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Not really? Case in point, I know several hardcore groups who outright didn't practice pre-Savage with their static healers because and I quote "healing was so boring. They had nothing to practice. So why force them to come?" Now obviously that is a hardcore sentiment, but it applies all the way down. It isn't repetition that causes healers to lose interest faster. It's the combination their primary role has significantly less engagement alongside that repetition.

You also misunderstood. I know they aren't going to give healers a complex rotation nor do they necessarily have to. They do, however, have to give them something to do that isn't spamming Glare/Broil/Malefic until the ends of time. Tanks don't have an overly complex rotation. In fact, Warrior is pretty brain dead. But it hass something to keep them occupied when they aren't tanking. There's a myriad of possibilities SE could explore with healers. Yes, a damage rotation is one of them but more intense healing or greater emphasis on support all come to mind. White Mage has something of the right idea with the revamped Lilies. You're essentially rewarded for healing. Astro, meanwhile, does the opposite. You have a pointless amount of busywork that ultimately offers inferior results to the job spamming one ability.

The point is... people are upset with healers because virtually every piece of content reduces them to being gimped DPS for 70% or more. If SE ran with that and embraced the hybrid nature. It make actually work. Shadowbringers showed they don't want to do that. They want us to heal more. And they went about that by keeping the Stormblood scaling while also making content not hit as hard. Savage turns 1-3 has very little direct tank damage. Basically, they changed nothing.

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Originally Posted by Iscah

Also, I have a hard enough time keeping up with DPS rotations while dodging mechanics anyway. Add healing to that where at any moment you have to drop everything and save the party? It would be awful, and the brain power of following the rotation would take away from my attention of watching the party's HP. I'd probably give up on it altogether because I'd feel like I'm doing a terrible job of both sides of my role.

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They've set up combos with GNB and DNC where using other skills don't break the combo, yet adding something like that to a healer is too much? There are ways to make the DPS combos work while still healing, it's just not likely to happen. I can understand some people not being able to keep up with it, but saying "Some people can't, therefore shouldn't" seems a tad strange to me.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

Perhaps if people were less abusive towards those that struggle and not simply go “ur bad LOL git gud /votekick” there would be a lot less anxiety all around.

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If you consider being told that doing your rotation while dodging mechanics is abusive... that's kinda sad.
It is literally the lowest bar in the game, and if you're struggling to meet that bar you either have to get better or find some other class to play. I really don't know what else to say lol.

That's something they expect you to do/be proficient at within the first one or two of those adventurer's guild help tutorial things before Sastasha

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

Whether or not they cater to "green DPS", that is what their game is designed for, and outside of a massive rework, that's not going to change be it this expansion or the next one. If they aren't willing to give healers their own rotation (doesn't even have to be much of one, I don't need anything more than 3-5 buttons and I'd be content) then they need something else to do in their massive amounts of downtime.

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I'd actually say that is what the meta is designed for, not the game. We already know DPS checks don't factor their DPS. This isn't a Sims or puzzle game. I'm not saying you think it is, but damage is naturally part of a PvE encounter, the question is should healers be spending 90% of the encounter doing it. I am of the mind that's it's the encounters that need to change, not their DPS rotation. And I would think that the game's healers would desire the same, given their chosen role.

Concurring that a DPS rotation doesn't need to be particularly complex; we're not talking WHM getting SUM rotation. If WHM had a lily step between Afflatus heal and Misery, where you pressed an oGCD to upgrade existing spells for next cast at the cost of a mid lily, that'd work for me.

It'd double the amount of time spent making the sort of optimization decisions WHM makes for lilies now, and there's potential for player choice by making a variety of upgraded effects (dps, heal, support). It still begins from healing and ends in Misery, it's still superficially simple, can be delayed as needed for healing because it runs off time gated and stackable lilies, and only adds one actual new button to hotbars.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

But the party should adjust by not having the WHM leave stack

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Honestly, while I am sure it can be done somehow, I won't try that with my party. The people are having a hard enough time as it is and we're still 5K+ shy of the 71K DPS requirement, so the last thing I'll do is ask them to adjust to me.
I like to solo heal as much as reasonably possible but in situations like these, I just admit that 2 healers are better than one. :D

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Originally Posted by Shalan

Keeping up rotations while dodging mechanics is a pretty low standard to meet as is. How low a bar are we willing to keep classes at because some people may struggle?

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I don't know man, seeing the Quietus phase of E2S, I sure am happy that I am not a DPS player. :D