Going to the same route as WoW. The game is TOO easy

The problem with WoW wasn't that content was too easy. It had varying levels of difficulty, and you climb as high as you have fun doing, just like in ff14. The problem with WoW was the sheer amount of RNG and grind involved/ FF14 rewards you pretty adequately for being able to go above casual difficulty, whereas WoW rewards you based on a dice roll regardless of what difficulty you're doing.

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Originally Posted by Maneesha

Everyone i talked to who played during titan ex release told me always the same thing, the difficulty wasn't the mechanics, but rather the ping issues many players faced. Walking out of the aoe and still getting hit....

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For some of us, these are still daily struggles in any fight where there's a chance to be knocked off the platform :D
And it's really not my Internet that's having issues

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Originally Posted by Maneesha

Everyone i talked to who played during titan ex release told me always the same thing, the difficulty wasn't the mechanics, but rather the ping issues many players faced. Walking out of the aoe and still getting hit....

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Yep, even with twitch perfect reactions I've been knocked off sometimes even when I appeared to be out of the area by cast end. Not having issues like this nowadays though, so either the connection improved, cast time became longer, or both.

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Originally Posted by DragynDance

The problem with WoW wasn't that content was too easy. It had varying levels of difficulty, and you climb as high as you have fun doing, just like in ff14. The problem with WoW was the sheer amount of RNG and grind involved/ FF14 rewards you pretty adequately for being able to go above casual difficulty, whereas WoW rewards you based on a dice roll regardless of what difficulty you're doing.

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This is a great point. Mythic+ dungeons can get really dicey, Heroic and Mythic raids gave a pretty good challenge too. I feel like a lot of FFXIV players who complain about FFXIV becoming like WoW haven't actually played WoW at all.

I remember getting Titanforged gear for doing a World Quest in WoW that was better than gear I had gotten from a Mythic+ that had obnoxious affixes to it. That's the big problem former WoW players have with WoW. When you can get super good gear from something as easy as a world quest, it begins to negate the point of raiding to get good gear.

People are necessarily leaving WoW because there's NO challenges to be had. It's just the Titanforge stuff makes doing the challenges pointless.

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Originally Posted by Maneesha

Yes gaming is more "mainstream" nowadays which leads to more people with less time to play, but mmorpg's were always games in which you had to invest a huge amount of time, devs trying to cater more and more to the casual 1-2h a day player base is the reason why most mmorpg's or games in general are getting more and more easy and boring. If you don't have time for time demanding games, don't play them and play single player/co-op or fps games where you can play 2-4 rounds in 2h and then log off. Instead of playing games which fit your available time, people demand everything to be changed to fit them... I think OP does have a point, even if i don't agree with everything he wrote.

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FF14 was "1-2h per day" game long ago, though. I saw it since 2.16 when I started to play till today. And most likely will be like this until its last day.

It's not only about mainstream. There was an interview and I will find it, but for now will just exlpain Yoshida's statements in my own words: yes, MMO demands time. But biggest part of community has not this time anymore. Very same players who in 2000 came home from school and just played, now have work, families, friends with whom they go drink sake in izakaya, etc etc etc. The amount of time that players can spend in games without moving is much less than it was 10 years ago. Because the main auditory is mostly the same as 10 years ago and it gets older and has less time to play in comparison to students. (Especially when we talk about Japanese players, who work much more than average European or American. And even if they are not the biggest part of playerbase, they are homemarket and set main course for the game.)

Position "if you don't have time - don't play" will just kill the game online in the result. BTW, in case with FF14 those who "demand change game to fit them" are those, who states that game should demand more time, not those, who play less. Because, as I said, FF14 was "low-online-demanding" since at least the ARR. And even had various restrictions to prevent "overtime-online" in 1.0 as far as I know from old reviews that I watched back then, but not sure.

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In SB the devs did delete a lot of ability's from the classes to make them easier(thou they reasoned with "button bloat") and thus changed the way some classes were played, *cough* drk *cough*. Now with ShB again.

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See nothing negative in these changes. Button bloat would be insane already in 4.0 without removing old skills from 2.0 and 3.0 and it would be another hot topic for hassles right here on OF with every-day thread "why so many skills". And if jobs do not change - playerbase, again, will start whine "why nothing new in playstyle!?" In fact, players just always will find something to be mad about, and it doesn't matter if you did something or if you didn't do something.

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Originally Posted by Halivel

FF14 always was "1-2h per day" game, though. Since 2.16 when I startet to play till today. And most likely will be like this until its last day.

It's not only about mainstream. There was an interview and I will find it, but for now will just exlpain Yoshida's statements in my own words: yes, MMO demands time. But biggest part of community has not this time anymore. Very same players who in 2000 came home from school and just played, now have work, families, friends with whom they go drink sake in izakaya, etc etc etc. The amount of time that players can spend in games without moving is much less than it was 10 years ago. Because the main auditory is mostly the same as 10 years ago and it gets older and has less time to play in comparison to students. (Especially when we talk about Japanese players, who work much more than average European or American. And even if they are not the biggest part of playerbase, they are homemarket and set main course for the game.)

Position "if you don't have time - don't play" will just kill the game online in the result.



See nothing negative in these changes. Button bloat would be insane already in 4.0 without removing old skills from 2.0 and 3.0 and it would be another hot topic for hassles right here on OF with every-day thread "why so many skills". And if jobs do not change - playerbase, again, will start whine "why nothing new in playstyle!?" In fact, players just always will find something to be mad about, and it doesn't matter if you did something or if you didn't do something.

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Remember the days where publishers used to state that 200k active player base was enough to maintain a mmorpg?.. Yeah the good old days, now if its not 3mil+ its a failure and should be shut down... Ugh.. lets not get there, a whole different topic.

As for button bloat, there are other ways to address this issue. For example a combo-system/skill evolution system, similar to warrior skills. You activate infuriate and your fell cleave gets transformed into a inner chaos. Both staying on the same slot position on your hot bars, not needing additional one or the devs could make more use of the combo-system which we have in pvp, maybe with some slight changes to it too..

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Originally Posted by Maneesha

As for button bloat, there are other ways to address this issue. For example a combo-system/skill evolution system, similar to warrior skills. You activate infuriate and your fell cleave gets transformed into a inner chaos. Both staying on the same slot position on your hot bars, not needing additional one or the devs could make more use of the combo-system which we have in pvp, maybe with some slight changes to it too..

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I think they said their no about this in PvE some time ago, though they could do it in the future. It was a popular question after PvP rework.

It is doable, but will lead to complete rework for all jobs again. They will need to get rid of all combos that have mutual skills in them, otherwise there is no big sense in it. Also, I almost hear how people will scream about it "now I need to press only 1-1-1 to complete the combo, GAME IS TOO EASY!". Not to mention jobs that technically don't have combos and who are out of this system as a result (at least now).

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

It is true that most of the game isn't very hard, but then a large majority of players do not want a very hard game.
For those who do want a challenge, there is always the Savage and Ultimate fights - that's why they exist.

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I'd like to know who this majority is, because I haven't seen any complaints about difficulty outside of people with physical handicaps (who I would expect to be in the minority).


WoW vs FFXIV is pretty much an age-old comparison. Back in 2.0+, I remember there being an influx of WoW players complaining about the level grinding being "too hard," so the FFXIV players were basically all "go home to WoW." I've never played WoW, personally, so I don't know if it is that much easier... but I honestly really don't want to see an easier, streamlined, or simplified MSQ for FFXIV and I'm a casual player (as in I've never done savages and I've only done extremes a couple times.). Some trials, like the Chrysalis and Shinryu when they both originally came out, were very difficult for me... and once I/my party beat them, it was very satisfying. Felt accomplished. Most of the casuals I've met in FCs and whatnot felt the same way.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

There is virtually no challenge outside of savage raids.

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MMORPGs are not meant to be particularly challenging. They are meant to be Massive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Games; social sandboxes to roleplay and make friends in.

They do happen to have challenging content in the form of extreme, savage and ultimate, for those who want challenge. Not everyone does.

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Originally Posted by Hitori

There is little community aspect since everything is instanced

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There is plenty of community, so perhaps you didn't notice it. Take a trip to a major city and chat in /shout. Join the novice network. Start hunting and make friends with all of the hunters in the open world. Join linkshells and free companies. Participate in roleplaying events. Join discords. Join party finders for casual content and make friends with the people you meet. Attend a fanfest. Post on these very forums.

I disagree, i dont think this game is going the same route as WoW. its not easy, and in wow in some areas is not easy also. crafting is much simpler, and less involved, but FFXIV has and will always be much more involved, less. easy than WoW. from a raid instance they both have learning curves and easy is as easy does. u can get out what you put into anything. the community in FFXIV is better imo, as is alot of the game, hence why i left wow a while back, the raiding in mythic can be very challenging , as can savage. I disagree with the same route.. and the too easy statement. just my observations

My isn't take is that "the game is too easy", but the skill floor remains too low at higher levels, players are allowed to under perform for too long without repercussion. Casual players shouldn't need to be challenged, but some sure need to be asked how their job works by the time they deck themselves in full Scavean gear.

It's OK that you want to have a relaxing time, just please pull your punches and don't make dungeons take more than half an hour.

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Originally Posted by S-r-ex

My isn't take is that "the game is too easy", but the skill floor remains too low at higher levels, players are allowed to under perform for too long without repercussion. Casual players shouldn't need to be challenged, but some sure need to be asked how their job works by the time they deck themselves in full Scavean gear.

It's OK that you want to have a relaxing time, just please pull your punches and don't make dungeons take more than half an hour.

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"Casual players shouldn't be challenged"
"Don't make dungeon take longer than x minutes"


Which one is it?

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

-Snip-

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Remember as well many bosses in vanilla WoW were broken like C'thun, C'thun on release was impossible to kill because he wasn't tuned correctly people worked out that if you had the best gear in the game and the right class set up and everyone doing everything perfectly you still couldn't kill him. Once he was hotfixed a few months later he was killed within hours.

Vanilla's longevity was mainly down to things not being balanced and like you say above being made to wait for everything. Imagine if while running Binding Coil your bard has to leave to get more arrows but the nearest vendor is in Ul'dah and there's no teleporting.

CasualBringers introduced too many single player/casual systems instead of dungeons extreme mode or some take on mythic+

This whole thread is mute and pointless.... OP hasn't cleared anything past a 24man. Which means his opinion on hard content is pointless.

The money is in the casual player. Thought that was obvious. That being said I'm extremely excited for Eden Savage. I'm really hoping MCH and DNC have great synergy in regards to the dance partners.

playing 1.0 to now, I'd say HW increased difficulty in all categories from 1.0/2.0
SB may be considered easier than HW, but only by a small fraction.
If anything I was suprised they increased difficulty in the more casual content.

The main things to be really effected in "made too easy" are healers.
Thats mostly it really. (the small exception of taking the most complex tank, and making it the least complex tank, and the other 2 being medium complexity, in comparison. and having RDM being easiest, followed by having SAM being mostly easier than the other melee.)

As soon as I read the title, my 1st thought was, the OP must be a healer, to be now saying anything about difficulty. (sure enough...)

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Originally Posted by Insertcoins

So I can't glomp you in random dungeons and ask for friends? - Heartbroken-

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I am always open for that - no, I am actually trying to do that in dungeons. I just can not understand why people seem to really hate to be with randoms - but still log into roulette with that attitude. I mean, what is that? "Oh, I hate public transportation and the random people I will never see again so much! But I still use the bus despite I could drive with my (FC) carpool!"

When a dungeon run is too cold, I simply /poke a cat and I get a /pet back. That is a sure way to break the ice.. :-)

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Originally Posted by FFgame

CasualBringers introduced too many single player/casual systems instead of dungeons extreme mode or some take on mythic+

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FFXIV already has a nice progression of difficulty from dungeon to normal trial/raid to alliance raid to extreme trial to savage raid to ultimate. If people want more difficult light party content, I'd rather they bring back light party trial than some kind of extreme mode for dungeon, and certainly not some kind of mythic+ style race-against-time dungeon run.

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Originally Posted by FFgame

CasualBringers introduced too many single player/casual systems instead of dungeons extreme mode or some take on mythic+

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Why does it always seem like the ones complaining the most about "Casualbringers" and "too many casual things" are always the ones who haven't done much of/any of the difficult content in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kaitoo

thats like your 4th strawman in the thread without actually responding. 95% of the thread is either ad hominems or strawmans, so im out
atleast thx at @Skyclaw726 and @Kalise for being ontopic

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It was clearly a joke. Sarcasm is not the same as a strawman argument.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

This statement right here. You can criticize anything that's always gonna be an allowed thing. However the moment you make a claim like that the content is easy without doing the harder stuff you lose all credibility.

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Imagine saying DMC (capital M) is too easy...

...while having never done DMD or Hell and Hell.

Alternatively, the sentiment I've gathered can be explained in a hypothetical conversation:

"Baseline content isn't challenging. This game isn't challenging enough."
"Try the harder content!"
"...no."

Is that super reductive? Yeah, but I'm a huge fan of hyperbole.

I think the bigger issue is the lack of a decent difficulty curve ever since the days of 2.0.

The final dungeons had toned down versions of some of the Hard Mode primal's attacks to try and help people get to grips with what the game expected out of them and for the most part, it was actually pretty a good challenge to carry someone through this stuff back then.

I'd also argue that the Trials did a better job of being a good middle ground between the casual and hardcore aspects of the endgame back then. Again, carrying someone through Titan, Ifrit or Thordan EX wasn't particularly easy when they were new content. Compare that to most of the primals across SB and it rarely matters if someone simply can't pull their weight.

Lastly, this game is far too happy to reward people for completely unacceptable standards of play. It's standard fare to see several people with a sub 30% active rate in any given 24 man. I'm sorry but no, that's not even remotely ok at the end game.

The game doesn't need to be harder. Rather, the devs need to look at ways to encourage more people to play to a better standard so that they are better suited to take on the inevitable blips in content difficulty throughout the game.

I don't think being 'too easy' is either a problem FFXIV as far as I've seen has (and, admittedly, I've very new here whereas I've played WoW since Vanilla), or is something it shares in the same way with WoW.

The difference I've seen so far is engagement. Now, first of all- every job I've tried has a complex and engaging rotation with some thought to it in this game, to the point where, even not being level 70 the most simple job here is dozens time more interesting and requires more abilities and even more thought into which to use when than the hardest to play specs in WoW. So before we've even touched the fights themselves, FFXIV has the base for more complicated play- if the games were literally beating a target dummy, this game would be considerably better.

But mechanically, there are more engaging mechanics in leveling dungeons in this game than there are in most normal level WoW endgame raids. I don't mythic raid in WoW, but I do get heroic clears in the first few weeks- and even there, at the second highest level of content- H BoD starts with a fight where the boss's mechanic is adds and an occassional directional attack. That's content most players in WoW are incapable of doing- but there are mere dungeons in FFXIV which have far more mechanically going on.

I of course have yet to do the extreme or true endgame here- but even from a casual content perspective, this game requires considerably more from players than most of what WoW does, which makes it more enjoyable.

I mean, take Dark Souls and Bloodborne. DaS 1-3 are challenging games at higher NG+, and I love it- but Bloodborne was a joke in terms of difficulty. Bloodborne also was extremely fun- less fun, but still I loved it. A game does not need to be HARD to be engaging and fun, but when it is NEITHER as almost everything in WoW is, I end up in 8.2 going back until I get through heroic Azshara and likely unsubbing once again- since the only harder content is mythic which I can't even do as my raid guild's on a different server, and I don't find WQ or speedrunning dungeons to be engaging in that game.

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Originally Posted by linay

FFXIV already has a nice progression of difficulty from dungeon to normal trial/raid to alliance raid to extreme trial to savage raid to ultimate. If people want more difficult light party content, I'd rather they bring back light party trial than some kind of extreme mode for dungeon, and certainly not some kind of mythic+ style race-against-time dungeon run.

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It actually doesn't. FFXIV has very noticeable difficulty spikes with little ebb and flow. Dungeons and normal modes are brain dead simple with very few exceptions while EXs have been all over the place. You have Shinryu, who could actually kick your teeth in followed by... Byakko, who is arguably one of the easiest Primals the game ever released; Lakshmi takes that title. Savage does something similar with Alte Roite having no business being labeled Savage while Halicarnassus is a massive jump over Catastrophe. Ultimate is on a whole different level that utterly dwarfs current Savage. Neo, Godka and Final are not even close to the sheer mechanical dance and demand of Bahamut, Nael and Ultima.

With that all said, I think the important factor to keep in mind is what Sebazy touched upon above. While I do think the challenge needs to go up on the casual side, it shouldn't be a quantum leap ahead. For example, Migard will not cast Tail End (his buster) until more than half way into his fight on normal. He literally does almost nothing to the tanks. I don't think it's unreasonable to say this isn't good design. You're a tank and could take every CD off your bar and live just fine in that fight. So what should change? I would like to see more tank swaps and enrages—the latter especially. It puts some actual responsibility on the DPS in lieu of having 24 mans or normal modes where you can just throw bodies at the boss until it kneels over provided a healer or RDM/SMN lives.

Put another way. I would like content to better reward effort instead of rewarding participation.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

Yep, even with twitch perfect reactions I've been knocked off sometimes even when I appeared to be out of the area by cast end. Not having issues like this nowadays though, so either the connection improved, cast time became longer, or both.

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They fixed the latency on servers end, it was a huge issue before the fix, I still have nightmares about it. I used to have to move before the abilities even appeared to dodge, which worked, unless someone ran in front of me and dropped their landslide/weights in front me, making me unable to dodge it T^T

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Put another way. I would like content to better reward effort instead of rewarding participation.

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Not going to touch on the difference between Savage encounters as well as Savage and Ultimate, but I think the other contents are still within reason even with any "spikes" in difficulty. That said, I can agree with rewarding more (good) effort.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Why does it always seem like the ones complaining the most about "Casualbringers" and "too many casual things" are always the ones who haven't done much of/any of the difficult content in the game.

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I haven't seen any clear indication of this trend, but neither would it seem that unreasonable to me.

Consider. If you only play casual content, you're in a place where you're free to optimize, but are not constrained to just the most optimal choices. You're at sort of the "sweet spot" for player flexibility and creativity. You can still experience engaging play without having to live or die by it.

But what happens when gameplay is simplified across the whole? Now you increasingly must participate in higher-stakes or high-stress content in order to reach that same level of potential engagement. For casual -- but necessarily incompetent -- player, that's sort of a worst of both worlds. You get to do things that are inherently less engaging but propelled by the exactness of the content, which is precisely what you tried to avoid in the first place. Your means are now less enjoyable and/or your ends more stressful.

Consider also the shared resource costs here. While a large part of being casual is of course choice, to avoid stressful and/or exacting content, what if they could instead receive content that is a bit more difficult without being more exacting (e.g. scheduled or scripted like Savage fights)? If you could have content that could bring in more engagement on the whole, without sacrificing the parts of gameplay you find fun through a rigorous need for optimization or memorization, would that not be preferable to, say, random "casual" side-content? What ever happened to that whole difficulty range between "casual" and Savage, where it would give casual players -- not something that can just immediately do, but rather -- to progress through without feeling pushed into a separate world of play? Why shouldn't casual players be the ones most concerned about a lack of mid-core content, or side-contents with a fair but varied degree of difficulty available to them? It's their entire sense of building up from A to B, instead of solely doing, without little real sense of achievement, casual content styles A-Z, that would be lost to them when you get features pandered to where you are now rather than where you'd want to go.

I'd like more small group content that's hard. Being in a discord with 5+ people is always a pain in the rear to try and do, and honestly my days of raid leading are long gone. I'd like some savage mode dungeons that I can get a weapon from and me and my 3 other friends is all thats needed as participants.

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Originally Posted by Vercinotrix

I'd like more small group content that's hard. Being in a discord with 5+ people is always a pain in the rear to try and do, and honestly my days of raid leading are long gone. I'd like some savage mode dungeons that I can get a weapon from and me and my 3 other friends is all thats needed as participants.

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I’m with you here. I’d love to see extreme/savage mode 4mans. As another option to partake in.

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Originally Posted by Disc_Hunter

Genuine question: who benefits from making the casual-focused content more difficult? I'm like 99% sure that Square primarily intends this as a game to be enjoyed by all final fantasy fans, with plenty of challenging content for those who want to go beyond. Why turn MSQ and normal dungeons into that? Once again, who benefits?

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Depending on the difficulty curve, casual, mid-core, or even just the Chaddiest among us. There's no one answer.

If the difficulty curve has reasonable steps that pull only small and easily surprises at a time, each well and intuitively indicated, with little space given to forget previously learned mechanics and little to memorize at any one point in time... casual players probably benefit the most.
Add on some intensive stuff that takes a step past mere accumulative learning and puts your awareness to the test... well, now midcore players will probably get the largest kick out of it.
Crank everything up to the memorization standards of Savage... actually, I'm not sure anyone especially 'benefits' at that point, as it'd just be "more of the same", but probably of lesser quality, for Savage runners.
Create new systems of progression (for classic example, Mythic+) whereby anyone can progress from any level, to their maximum given their gear and... everyone benefits. There's no exclusive minimum difficulty, and there's virtually no ceiling on the difficulty either.

I worked for years to get my Kirin's Osode in FFXI, and I wore it for years after that as Best In Slot... because FFXI was a horizontal MMO.
I like that.

I've never been able to really invest myself in FFXIV because what's the point of Best in Slot when it'll be trash every 7 months?

But as an otherwise GAME... like an offline, Mainline Final Fantasy GAME,
You can make the argument it is right up at the top of the franchise in quality.

Sure, I'd love it if I could fall in love with a game the way I did FFXI ever again, and FFXIV isn't ever going to be that,
But I love it just the same for what it does offer, and embrace it for those aspects.
...Which frankly isn't often the online component, but just the me being a loner lol
Eh...

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Originally Posted by Disc_Hunter

Genuine question: who benefits from making the casual-focused content more difficult? I'm like 99% sure that Square primarily intends this as a game to be enjoyed by all final fantasy fans, with plenty of challenging content for those who want to go beyond. Why turn MSQ and normal dungeons into that? Once again, who benefits?

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Everyone who got past Shinryu would benefit from the dungeons after it being at least equally hard because a downwards difficulty curve induces boredom and devolves player skill. Who benefits from leveling dungeons being harder than "expert" dungeons? I'm expecting some wipes in the new dungeons and the last trial because most people have been cruising on autopilot and forgotten the previous challenge in the MSQ from two years ago.

Well maybe we should play first the exoansion before we complain about the changes? :)

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Originally Posted by Hitori

IDK if this will be popular here, but just a quick glance at the front page of general discussion shows how far away from the original idea XIV has gone.

There is virtually no challenge outside of savage raids. There is little community aspect since everything is instanced, and people are far more concerned with minions and mounts that discussing battle startegies, since none is required.

I'm pretty old now I guess. I came up on EQ, played XI for 5 years and started XIV on 1.0. I played XIV now on and off. I resubbed this month with the expansion hype, but leveling my AST I found myself asking why. I mean, healing is no challenge what so ever. I'm mostly spamming my DD spells.

This is just venting, i suppose, but after seeing a lot of WoW refugee threads and videos I couldn't help but thinking XIV is heading in the same direction.

I, myself, will probably buckle and get the expansion, but I will 100% be playing Classic in Aug. and Pantheon whenever that comes out.

TLDR: The challenge is gone and with it the community.

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Yet the game has the most active subs it has ever had. NEXT!

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Everyone who got past Shinryu would benefit from the dungeons after it being at least equally hard because a downwards difficulty curve induces boredom and devolves player skill.

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If everything after Shinryu was as tedious as most Shinryu parties were when 4.0 was current, I'd probably have just quit playing because it would have quickly eroded my fun.

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Originally Posted by Vercinotrix

I'd like more small group content that's hard. Being in a discord with 5+ people is always a pain in the rear to try and do, and honestly my days of raid leading are long gone. I'd like some savage mode dungeons that I can get a weapon from and me and my 3 other friends is all thats needed as participants.

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I like this. Puts more responsibility on the team and spectacle can be flashier when enemy AI isn't going between 8 people.

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Originally Posted by Reap00

Yet the game has the most active subs it has ever had. NEXT!

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Also the SHB pre-orders are double that of SB.
So OP, who’s got it right? SE or your minority view?
That’s not to say there shouldn’t be hard content available, there should be challenges to as broad a base as possible.
But your inflammatory post title just attracts the same degree of response.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

If everything after Shinryu was as tedious as most Shinryu parties were when 4.0 was current, I'd probably have just quit playing because it would have quickly eroded my fun.

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If you agree that being challenged and improving have a causal relationship, then perhaps it would follow that random parties would not remain such a burden forever. Or did you mean that having to put in effort is tedious? I can't say I'll ever understand that point of view.

If we could get Savage/ultimate content for 4-players that would be great! Even with an established FC with 80+ players online, it's not the easiest thing in the world to convince 8 of them to run a hardcore raid. 4? Absolutely doable though.